The Houses: Past and Present.

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Thank you, Gaer for defending my points while I was away.

Pallas-Trine-Mars, I have not stated anything in this article that has not been stated by other classical astrologers. You've clearly made your choice as to which set of rules you have sold yourself to as I have done myself. However, I am infinately aware as the stands and rules of the modern astrology you follow, while you and others are unaware as to the original traditional set-ups and philosophies regarding those set-ups. So please, just read and be appreciative of the understanding that most students do not hold. If you have refutes to the points of classical astrologers, than please feel free to bring them up, but refrain from doing so if you only have modern points to raise in their stead. The two systems are incompatible, and you'll only be wasting your energy typing them up. However, I would enjoy a discussion concerning the differences in the classical astrologers' astrology. :)

Smilingsteph, you're right in that I really had no intention of this to be a discussion, because after everything is said and done, what is there to discuss? I've got the modern side up and the traditional side up. I'm not leaving anything out, you can argue about it all you want, but really, it's not the point to argue it. Just to read and understand it.
 

Pallas-trine-Mars

Well-known member
[non-astrological opinions deleted - Moderator]

I will say these few things:

1. Thank you for finishing your list, even though it took alot of time. I still do appreciate it even if you had to take down time now and again and even if everyone here wants to get all snippy because they don't want to hear about Uranus. I always appreciate true philosophy in any of it's forms.

2. I think that's wrong. Modern is wholly incompatible with traditional? Why, be cause we have better understanding of our solar system? I'm sorry, but no one can convince me that modern and traditional can't work. I approach astrology scientifically, and last time I checked modern science is still compatible with ancient science (some parts anyway). I DO study traditional astrology, Hellenistic, Vedic, Medieval, it's not like picking a nationality where you can only have one. And I definitely am not above learning new things.

-Michael
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
In response to two, I've made it blatantly obvious that the two systems are incompatible, and you have only furthered this claim yourself by telling me to remember that Mars rules the First house when I've stated the co-significator of the first house is Saturn. Mars and Saturn are not the same planet, and is but one of the many million different reasons why the traditional and modern systems are incompatible. This thread stands as testament to this.

Yes, we know more about our solar system, but that has very little to do with anything. Yes, we see Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in charts, but are you suggesting that the astrology of the Pre-Uranian time is incorrect because of the non-existance of these three planets? Negative.

You think you know everything about about traditional astrology and that if anyone disagrees with you that makes their ideas "modern" when we're STILL translating ancient texts!?
It's obvious I don't know everything about traditional astrology, I'm simply sharing what I know. If people disagree with my stance on astrology and then tell me things like "Remember, Mars is the ruler of the First house", I'm going to assume they're a modern astrologer. After all, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, odds are it's a duck. So, I apologize for slapping a label on you, but you have to admit that you fit the bill pretty well there by saying Mars was the ruler of the First and that I forgot to mention that Sixth was the house of Health, when it is obviously the opposite.

In response to three, you call me a child and then throw a hissy and walk out. Huh...

Thank you aquarius7000, it was fun working on it. :) I've got more stuff in the works, to be honest, but I'm not sure where I'll put it or if it'll even go up anywhere. We'll see!
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
The Peaceful Past and Present.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Thank you aquarius7000, it was fun working on it. :) I've got more stuff in the works, to be honest, but I'm not sure where I'll put it or if it'll even go up anywhere. We'll see!
Kai,

It's been fun reading your write-ups, so, now that you've spoilt us already, you are not allowed to deprive us of them anymore;). Remember that knowledge is meant to be shared.

And, come on both of you Kai and Pallas - you are both only putting across the ideas of some 'other' astrologers - it's simply a case of old school of astrology vs. the new one, so please DO NOT make it a battle of opinions here:cheers: .
Free will will always prevail, and so I added a nice sentence to my previous post:
We, nonetheless, have the freedom to apply what appeals to us more, or what we deem more befitting for our practice of astrology. Knowing both sides of the coin, however, certainly broadens the horizon
Kai, remember that I'm eagerly waiting for the next 'helping', so make sure you work on it and post it soon, please:).

;) aquarius7000

As Gandhi said: Honest differences are a healthy sign of progress.
 

gaer

Well-known member
Re: The Peaceful Past and Present.

aquarius7000 said:
And, come on both of you Kai and Pallas - you are both only putting across the ideas of some 'other' astrologers - it's simply a case of old school of astrology vs. the new one, so please DO NOT make it a battle of opinions here.
It isn't a battle of opinions. There are very basic ideas that are getting confused. For instance:

6th=Virgo=Mercury

It is very easy to assume that because the 6th house is associated with the small intestines, this also means that Mercury is also associated the same way. That is XYZ thinking, isn't it?

Here is the flaw: regardless of rulers, significtators, that kind of reasoning would suggest that all planets that are associated with two signs rule all the medical matters in both signs.

And I believe that's exactly the problem Pallas brought up.

If Mercury rules the intestines and so on because of Virgo, then it also rules the hands and lungs due to it's link to Gemini.

That reasoning is clearly flawed.


That's very different from:

6th house
significators = Virgo and Mercury
Mars joys in this house

It's difficult for most people, including me, to keep these two systems separated. In this house the significator (Mercury) is the same as the modern ruler of the house (also Mercury), but for most houses this is not true.

Why mix the modern and traditional systems together, in any way, in a thread that is designed to show the differences between the two? :)

Gaer
 
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EJ53

Banned
Thanks for doing this, Kai. It gives me an understanding of the differences between the traditional and modern, when before I had none - and it's an interesting "read" too.

EJ:)
 

iwonder

Well-known member
Is there a place online where traditional principles are applied in practice? Like a special forum or a course with analysis of a few charts?

I see where modern view's weakness is, and I think it comes from the desire to meet the demands of many to learn astrology fast and easy. Anyway, that could be another thread...

I've seen modern astrology applied. I want to see traditional at work. Can I?
 

iwonder

Well-known member
Re: traditional astrology on-line

Thank you, Wilsontc.

(Off topic - I always wonder why people make their websites so hard to read. Could be another thread :))
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
iwonder said:
I see where modern view's weakness is, and I think it comes from the desire to meet the demands of many to learn astrology fast and easy.

That has nothing to do with it.

When astrology first started, you did 12 charts.

You had the original chart to interprent, and then you would do a 2nd chart with the 2nd House cusp on the Ascendant and read it. Then you would do a 3rd chart with the 3rd House cusp on the Ascendant and read it and so on and so on through all 12 houses.

So you had 12 charts and in each chart you had 12 houses with 12 meanings.

To speed things up, they just over-laid the 12 charts onto one chart and read the derivative house meanings together.

That's why you have houses like the 8th House that represent seemingly unrelated things like sex, death, taxes, inheritance, other people's wealth, your spouse's wealth, heirs, dowries, duels, legacies, the occult, fears/phobias, and allies of your enemies.

iwonder said:
I've seen modern astrology applied. I want to see traditional at work. Can I?

I doubt it. Whenever I asked they ran away, or the few who tried to interpret my chart using traditional or medieval techniques failed miserably.
 

EJ53

Banned
BobZemco said:
...When astrology first started, you did 12 charts....and in each chart you had 12 houses with 12 meanings.

Interesting, Bob - I didn't know this. Do you have any information/internet link that lists the original 12 meanings? I'd like to explore this further.

EJ:)
 

iwonder

Well-known member
BobZemco said:
That has nothing to do with it.

...

To speed things up, they just over-laid the 12 charts onto one chart and read the derivative house meanings together.

That's why you have houses like the 8th House that represent seemingly unrelated things like sex, death, taxes, inheritance, other people's wealth, your spouse's wealth, heirs, dowries, duels, legacies, the occult, fears/phobias, and allies of your enemies.
I didn't know about 12 charts either, but understand the overlaying. This is also a way to meet the market demand, is it not? However, this is not what I meant. More than once I read astrologers' comments such as this: "Look what happened! Now house and sign are the same, planet in the 1st is interpreted the same as the planet in Aries!"

Yes, I've seen cook books full of it (and what a coincident - they all happen to be on modern astrology!), and this is the simplification I meant. But I think those who want to dig deeper do not limit themselves with cook books. Anyway, this my short version :)

I doubt it. Whenever I asked they ran away, or the few who tried to interpret my chart using traditional or medieval techniques failed miserably.
I wonder if this is because the knowledge was lost over time or because the ancient rules cannot explain today's realities. Did you try using them yourself to see it they work?
 
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tsquare

Well-known member
That has nothing to do with it.

When astrology first started, you did 12 charts.

You had the original chart to interprent, and then you would do a 2nd chart with the 2nd House cusp on the Ascendant and read it. Then you would do a 3rd chart with the 3rd House cusp on the Ascendant and read it and so on and so on through all 12 houses.

So you had 12 charts and in each chart you had 12 houses with 12 meanings.

To speed things up, they just over-laid the 12 charts onto one chart and read the derivative house meanings together.

That's why you have houses like the 8th House that represent seemingly unrelated things like sex, death, taxes, inheritance, other people's wealth, your spouse's wealth, heirs, dowries, duels, legacies, the occult, fears/phobias, and allies of your enemies.

Interesting, Bob - I didn't know this. Do you have any information/internet link that lists the original 12 meanings? I'd like to explore this further.

I've seen this method used before in Vedic Astrology, whole sign reading.
Place to start anyhow..I havn't looked at it for some time...sorry.
 

EJ53

Banned
tsquare said:
I've seen this method used before in Vedic Astrology, whole sign reading.
Place to start anyhow..I havn't looked at it for some time...sorry.

Thanks Tsquare. I'll have a look.

EJ:cheers:
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
EJ53 said:
Interesting, Bob - I didn't know this. Do you have any information/internet link that lists the original 12 meanings? I'd like to explore this further.

EJ:)

I think Pelletier talks about it. He's real big on derivative houses.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
iwonder said:
I didn't know about 12 charts either, but understand the overlaying. This is also a way to meet the market demand, is it not?
No, it's just simplicity.

iwonder said:
However, this is not what I meant. More than once I read astrologers' comments such as this: "Look what happened! Now house and sign are the same, planet in the 1st is interpreted the same as the planet in Aries!"
That isn't completely incorrect. That natural house ruler still has some influence.

iwonder said:
I wonder if this is because the knowledge was lost over time or because the ancient rules cannot explain today's realities.

Probably both, plus many things get skewed trying to interpret other cultures through a western view, especially through a western christian view.

iwonder said:
Did you try using them yourself to see it they work?

No. Pre-traditional view of astrology is that it is "fated." There's nothing you can do. The whole point of doing a natal chart is to learn that you're headed down this path and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
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E

eternalautumn

I'd like to see Kai's posts moved into the Educational Board if at all possible, with the ensuing discussion left here. I really enjoyed the read and I think others could benefit as well by it being a proper article.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
For those interested in the original (pre-Ptolemy) first book about the houses (at least the first book which has come down to us), may I refer you to "Astronomica" by Manilius (fairly easily available book) Deborah Houlding (owner/operator of Skyscript) took the title of her interesting book about the houses from Manilius ("Temples of the Sky")
For those with an open mind and the eyes to see, there is actually quite a bit to be discovered in the "Astronomica".
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
EA: yes i thought it WAS on the Ed Board..anyway-Kai can you post it on the Ed Board for us-a couple of images need to be re set at the start. Just start a new thread and I'll move it later...
Cheers
Lilly
 
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