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  #1  
Unread 05-25-2019, 01:10 AM
clip11 clip11 is offline
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No such thing as a bad chart?

How can this be said in all seriousness? Lets say you have 2 babies born this year one has a natal chart with placements indicating he could end up a short, ugly 40 year old virgin, lots of placements for mental illness and that he'll have to work hard for any success he gets which will come late in life.

The other has a chart with placements indicating he'll be tall and handsome, popular with women, wealth will come easily and early in life. He'll be popular and have lots of friends and be very charming.

How then can one say 'theres no such thing as a bad chart'?

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  #2  
Unread 05-25-2019, 01:51 AM
Alimal Alimal is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Jesus was a short, ugly 33 year old virgin when he died. He suffered from persecution and presumably Neptune aspects. He died on a cross (possibly something to do with Saturn).


Meanwhile Pontius Pilate was tall and handsome, popular with women, wealth came easily and early in life. He was popular with lots of friends and very charming.


Guess which one is still worshipped today?
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  #3  
Unread 05-25-2019, 01:57 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimal View Post
Jesus was a short, ugly 33 year old virgin when he died. He suffered from persecution and presumably Neptune aspects. He died on a cross (possibly something to do with Saturn).


Meanwhile Pontius Pilate was tall and handsome, popular with women, wealth came easily and early in life. He was popular with lots of friends and very charming.


Guess which one is still worshipped today?
Pontius lived the better life I would say.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-25-2019 at 02:06 AM.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 02:01 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by clip11 View Post
How can this be said in all seriousness? Lets say you have 2 babies born this year one has a natal chart with placements indicating he could end up a short, ugly 40 year old virgin, lots of placements for mental illness and that he'll have to work hard for any success he gets which will come late in life.

The other has a chart with placements indicating he'll be tall and handsome, popular with women, wealth will come easily and early in life. He'll be popular and have lots of friends and be very charming.

How then can one say 'theres no such thing as a bad chart'?
Most charts are neither happy nor unhappy, but moderately fortunate. Happiness results from fortune of dignity, that is by occupation and higher rank in whatever actions the person is doing.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 02:10 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

If someone thinks that there are no fortunate and misfortunate nativities, this person is lying to himself.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 02:40 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Why does someone who can only see exaltations and falls and detriments even practice Western astrology? Aren't there easier ways to follow the herd? I've met a number of astrologers who are analytically skilled and decently well-read, but who miss entirely the holistic "why is this person consulting me?" of the question. Honestly, why would you tell someone they have a bad chart? Instead of asking about what it is they've had to face during their lives and overcome, or instead of asking what shortcomings exist in your analytical system?
I'll never forget a restaurant owner who approached me and asked to read my chart (!) because my karma looked so positive. He couldn't find it in my chart and re-read me as a person based on what he saw on paper. Maybe - re-read the tools instead?
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  #7  
Unread 05-25-2019, 02:50 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Why does someone who can only see exaltations and falls and detriments even practice Western astrology? Aren't there easier ways to follow the herd? I've met a number of astrologers who are analytically skilled and decently well-read, but who miss entirely the holistic "why is this person consulting me?" of the question. Honestly, why would you tell someone they have a bad chart? Instead of asking about what it is they've had to face during their lives and overcome, or instead of asking what shortcomings exist in your analytical system?
I'll never forget a restaurant owner who approached me and asked to read my chart (!) because my karma looked so positive. He couldn't find it in my chart and re-read me as a person based on what he saw on paper. Maybe - re-read the tools instead?
Many people want to know from the astrologer if they are going to be successful, honoured or famous. What would you tell them?
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Unread 05-25-2019, 03:21 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Many people want to know from the astrologer if they are going to be successful, honoured or famous. What would you tell them?
It's on a case by case basis. Typically I don't answer these kinds of predictive questions from the natal because it interferes with the operation of the will. I suppose in psychological astrology you could say that a good chart doesn't look like a traditional good chart.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 03:28 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

It depends on the so-called traditional astrologer, too. One might see a chart filled with exaltations and domiciled planets and exclaim great things portending the native, while another might be a little wary of seeing so many dignified planets in the chart. It's on the same octave of seeing predominantly soft-aspected charts belonging to those who do great harm like serial killers, or those with unremarkable lives.

What would a "good" chart look like in psychological astrology?
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  #10  
Unread 05-25-2019, 03:51 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

A good chart... would of course look like the chart of a good psychologist That's not quite true, though this is one of my favorite examples https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Grof,_Stanislav look at that Capricorn Moon conjunct Saturn, heavyweights excepting Neptune all in square!
In psychological astrology the goodness of a chart is certainly dependent on the unfolding of the individual's life and the choices they have to make. I can't see large scale societal and ecological factors through the individual's horoscope necessarily unless somehow they manage to internalize them. What does that do, it could in the right person give the rare opportunity to transcend circumstance. You need enough ease and enough stress, a mix of fate and freedom, enough elemental variety to be sensitive to a variety of opportunities.. it's pretty holistic. In a counseling session it becomes clearer.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 04:26 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I wonder about that brand of holism and it's relation to "goodness". I guess when you talk about what is a good and a bad chart, you are asking the question, "what is the best life a human can live?".

Kurt Cobain. 8 planets in water. Would you say his chart is bad or good? What about his life?
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cobain,_Kurt

What about Bruce Lee. No planets in air. Good or bad chart? You think his life was a "good" one.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lee,_Bruce

I think both lived "fateful" lives, and they spent most of their time following their passions. Both charts are extreme, and perhaps the extremity of both was too much for them to sustain, leading to their early deaths. Hey, maybe deep down that's what they wanted. I don't believe that true happiness or mastery necessarily follows from one who has inordinate free-will, and most people would be weary of the responsibility that having a truly free-will would come with.

When I look at a chart, instead of trying to find the "meta-ideal" of what a perfect life should be, I try to figure out what the personal ideal is of the chart native, and to see if they are able to meet it or not. That's a much more graspable benchmark to reach. Otherwise you tend to miss the chart/individual in front of you.
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  #12  
Unread 05-25-2019, 04:52 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Your examples are moving. Great examples of well, sometimes we just aren't able to grasp the life force or agree with the soul instinct of a person. One can look at a chart and have a knee-jerk "oh that's beautiful" response, or a sympathetic cry of pain response (and I get the latter looking at Kurt Cobain's chart, but I also came of age on Nirvana and remember exactly where I was when the news of his death arrived). But "wow, beautiful" response is a personal one; it's not a result of careful hewing to astrological signatures, but again, holistic. Sometimes it's "wow, you are dealing with all of that!" and that understanding is given just by my intimate knowledge of people and charts, not distantly known clients. I don't consider fame or wealth to be "good" because they have baggage, and if the baggage isn't in the chart, it might be something that lands up on society or the environment!


The first question for me is, why is this person coming to you, and what do they need? Can you provide them with some kind of information that aids them on their journey? Indeed the pure play of free will can be exhausting, as can an equally matched battle between fate and will. If you cannot help them, you got nothing, send them elsewhere, if not to a different astrologer then to a different art form. It's effectively a 'bad chart' if you can't fulfill your purpose as an astrologer (about which you and I would seem to agree on).
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  #13  
Unread 05-25-2019, 05:10 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBegkwwXKC4


Interview with Nikola Stojanovic just came out, coincidentally talking about this subject
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Unread 05-25-2019, 05:54 AM
clip11 clip11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimal View Post
Jesus was a short, ugly 33 year old virgin when he died. He suffered from persecution and presumably Neptune aspects. He died on a cross (possibly something to do with Saturn).


Meanwhile Pontius Pilate was tall and handsome, popular with women, wealth came easily and early in life. He was popular with lots of friends and very charming.


Guess which one is still worshipped today?
So all you have to do is be the son of god and co ruler of the universe.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 08:24 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
It's on a case by case basis. Typically I don't answer these kinds of predictive questions from the natal because it interferes with the operation of the will. I suppose in psychological astrology you could say that a good chart doesn't look like a traditional good chart.
Also, just because the potential is in the chart, it doesn't necessarily mean the person lives up to it to its fullest.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 08:39 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

To me, the question of 'good chart/bad chart' has to be answered in the context of the big picture----one's cosmic evolutionary journey.

So a relatively 'good chart', in which the native has a nice balance of squares and trines, and a healthy balance of elements and modes, which gives them the ability to live a pretty nice, successful existence in this incarnation, may not give them the soulful evolutionary opportunity that they ultimately need, Ibn their cosmic journey.

Whereas a 'bad chart'---with a lot of malefics in challenging aspects to the lights, with few mitigating sextile or trines, perhaps with some dire Fixed Stars on the angles, and stelliums in the 6th and 12th, in opposition, and debilitated---

That 'bad' chart might allow that soul a greater evolutionary opportunity, at the end of the difficult incarnation.
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Unread 05-25-2019, 09:26 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

It's interesting to see the charts of successful people, that are often terribly difficult and challenging charts! And apparently provided the stimulus to overcome and succeed.
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  #18  
Unread 06-12-2019, 01:33 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

There are bad lives. I reckon there might be some bad charts.
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Unread 06-13-2019, 07:33 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Bad chart doesn't make bad life. It all comes down to the free will. You have certain themes in your chart that will never change ,ultimately it's up to you what you will chase. Material success or internal happiness.

And success is very different to each individual and that might not be evident in the chart unless the reader is highly intuitive .

I know a person with beautifully easy chart . All soft trines and sextiles,not one square or opposition. She ended being a difficult child , doing drugs in her teenagehood and ended up pregnant from a junkie , did drugs while pregnant , and now her family supports her. She is lazy and manipulative perhaps without even realizing.

So you can see how a good chart can produce bad results and vice versa.

Sadly you cannot say what is the ultimate truth and who likes to themselves, cos reality is a matter of perspective. Even if someone lies to themselves they might end up having a much better life than yours , regardless of their chart ,only cos they believed it.
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Unread 06-13-2019, 10:55 PM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

Just because a chart is full of trines does not make it a good chart.

Free will? Oh. Good luck with that.

The old saying goes, You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

At the age of 9, Charles Manson's mother sold him for a bottle of beer.

Also at age 9 my friend Gary was put on the sidewalks of Las Vegas by his parents. They drove off and never returned. After 18 years in the country's toughest prisons, his body wasting away, Gary became a suicide.
(Tr. Pluto semisquare Sun, exact to minute. Natal -- Leo rising, Pluto 12th Leo square Sun Scorpio 4th).

Your first 7 years or so are of first importance in determining your life. Free will is virtually absent during this period.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-13-2019 at 11:10 PM.
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  #21  
Unread 06-14-2019, 12:16 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

If you do not believe that you chose your time, date and place of birth before you were born, i can see why you might think there are "bad" charts. Life as a human being is chosen by your soul, as are your parents and health, wealth, skills and proclivities. Have faith that you know/knew what you were doing.
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Unread 06-14-2019, 12:20 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I think what you say depends on how you say it. Most astrologers are not trained in the art of counseling, advisory, seeing the future, helping, anything. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to astrologers who literally sound like they're speaking to themselves. "Oh, your such and such planet is in detriment, that's really bad." "Oh, your X planet is such-and-such, so I'm not surprised you have such and such struggle." Ugh. It's so inept. If I were more cynical I might think it's always a shady way of trying to assert passive-aggressive power! If I were counseling your poor friend, greybeard..... I'd probably acknowledge difficulties in the natal chart, difficult transits, and highlight opportunities and ease as well, and try to figure out avenues of reconciliation and personal growth. I hate doing cold readings for this reason. I would much rather have a better handle on what someone needs to hear, than feel I have some kind of occult visionary powers or sit in judgment. Because judgment should be a basis, not an end.
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Unread 06-14-2019, 05:01 AM
Melbylorraine Melbylorraine is offline
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Totally on board with this.
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Unread 06-14-2019, 05:38 AM
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Re: No such thing as a bad chart?

I happen to not share the commonly held view of a soul. I hope that's ok.

So I don't believe anyone chose anything. But they might have. It's certainly a possibility.

Let's assume Gary chose his tragic life. As I understand what was said earlier in the thread, we are supposed to be able to overcome initial negative circumstances (a "bad" chart) through use of our free will. If we fail it is because we had a failure of will.

Do I understand correctly?
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  #25  
Unread 06-14-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I happen to not share the commonly held view of a soul. I hope that's ok.

So I don't believe anyone chose anything. But they might have. It's certainly a possibility.

Let's assume Gary chose his tragic life. As I understand what was said earlier in the thread, we are supposed to be able to overcome initial negative circumstances (a "bad" chart) through use of our free will. If we fail it is because we had a failure of will.

Do I understand correctly?
I'd say life is tough. But I'd also say that as soon as we want to help ourselves , life supports us and carries us. As soon as we give up on ourselves so does life.

If we assumed we chose our challenges, perhaps your friend chose a highly difficult upbringing to overcome it. But maybe he just couldn't . That itself is a lesson of the soul. He might have been a very young and new soul that just couldn't deal with all the challenges.

We will never know the truth but it's best to believe something that soothes our soul and gives us hope for the future.
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