How the Zodiac Became to be?

quiet659

Active member
So here is how I picture the Zodiac..
Aries have birth Taurus. So Aries is the father and mother of Taurus
Taurus birth Gemini
Gemini birth Cancer
All the way to the end where Pisces birth Aries.

But then this is lead to the chicken and the egg question
Who came first?

Besides that question It is weird how fire signs always birth earth signs and earth signs birth air signs and air signs birth emotional signs. But it is also common sense.

So what do you think?
 

venuschild

Banned
http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng01.htm

Chapter one may explain what you are seeking!


7710150.jpg


And this book has a few answers for your quest.
 

athenian200

Well-known member
Well, I always had a symbolic image like this.

In the beginning, there's nothing... a clean slate. The pioneering Aries types being planting, building, trying to create something new.

After this new thing is established, you get the Taurus types who want to maintain it and keep it going.

Once you're out of building and survival mode, you start getting the clever Gemini types who go around looking for opportunities and information. Merchants, traders, scholars, etc. Maybe even a few slick con artists.

Eventually, the coldness and arrogance of these types of people breeds Cancer as a reaction. People trying to build strong ties with one another, treat each other like family, focus on ideals like patriotism, take care of one another, etc. This could be anything from a nurturing mother to a Mafia gang, of course. But the point is more solidarity.

Once these kind of little groups begin to multiply, people begin looking to an established authority to regulate and balance everything. Rather than the warrior/pioneer types of before, you now have established and trusted authority figures in Leo who have descended from good families, etc. They've always had power and know what authority is all about.

Before you know it, you start getting all these royal decrees and a ton of laws, plus people who keep track of all the associated details. That's where Virgo comes in. These guys are the king's messengers, advisors, and tax collectors who handle all the details so he can focus on the big picture.

Eventually, you get laws and rules that conflict with each other, and people start wanting justice for themselves rather than just for the king. That's when Libra comes along and establishes principles and arbitrates disputes, tries to keep the peace and be fair.

Naturally, within such complex systems, there are plenty of opportunities to abuse your trust or a need to root out corruption... and that's when you need Scorpio. People who can silently fight the hidden wars that are necessary to keep things going, or else people who take advantage of it... depending on their principles. These men are spies, agents, etc.

Eventually, some people just get tired of all the corruption and politics, and want to seek out new experiences, leave civilization behind. Sagittarius is all about people who begin looking abroad for opportunities, those who want to broaden their horizons and experience life. They want to go hunting, learn new languages, see the world for themselves, become good fighters, etc.

When it becomes apparent that too many people are falling away and things are getting way out of hand, Capricorn steps in. This is when the bureaucracies begin making the rules/calling the shots and the king actually loses power. People begin looking to established institutions and the creation of more and more local rules. You get a ton of judges and life becomes codified. Capricorn is about bureaucrats taking charge, organizing all the important functions and coordinating armies and supply lines... and basically saving the day.

Inevitably, life becomes very bogged down and corruption itself becomes more centralized. People begin longing for a lasting solution. That's when Aquarius begins sharing these high ideals, new technologies, and novel ideas. Some of which Sagittarius might have brought back from foreign lands. These new ideas revolutionize society and bring a sense of faith, love, and common humanity.

But even this doesn't last. Eventually, you get people who realize they can use religion as a way to control people as well, and they start getting greedy in the most hypocritical way. Then, you have these conflicts between those who have genuine faith in an ideal, and those who merely espouse it for profit, with everyone else slowly becoming too cynical to care anymore. This is Pisces, when everything finally starts to break down and realize that they can't rely on anyone except maybe their lovers or parents. Eventually, people develop immense compassion and forgiveness because they know everyone has lost everything and had their life turned upside down.

From this base of ashes and newfound goodwill... the Aries pioneers start over yet again, and thus the cycle repeats.
 

Rick

Banned
I think about this all the time, and the answer is eternity exists, from the past to the future, it never started and it will never end.
Aries is the beginning yes but it's a cycle, Aries never existed alone, or it did but only on a relative scale, in a certain dimension, but there were always higher dimensions.
 

miquar

Well-known member
The zodiac wheel was first divided into twelve sectors around the time of the Buddha and Lao Tsu. So this change in astrology was synchronous with the germination of some new consciousness which continues to blossom today. The fact that there are approximately 12 lunation cycles on a year lead astronomer-astrologers to divide the ecliptic into 12, but this ratio could itself be part of the synchronocity of evolving consciousness on Earth.

Why there are 12 signs, and also why their sequence expresses as sub-cycles such as the element and mode cycles, can also be demonstrated convincingly by referring to harmonic theory, but I'm putting that in a book at the moment and want the ideas to be fresh when it goes to print next year, so I don't want to go into it right now.
 

quiet659

Active member
I think about this all the time, and the answer is eternity exists, from the past to the future, it never started and it will never end.
Aries is the beginning yes but it's a cycle, Aries never existed alone, or it did but only on a relative scale, in a certain dimension, but there were always higher dimensions.

Thank You!!!! I have the same idea. I always think about the zodiac in its entirely. I also know that even though Aries is the first zodiac sign, the other signs was already here since time does not exist. Thanks for understanding me.
:happy:

Also I believe that traditional astrology helps you to better understand this. Not like hoary astrology but the planets specifically like Saturn, Jupiter, and Moon. Not including modern planets and asteroids.
 
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Rick

Banned
Cool, it's nice to meet others who've understood, I often scroll around but without success....I think everybody should learn this kind of stuff. It truly changes the whole perspective...on everything :)
And yeah Saturn, Jupiiter and Moon are as important as the sun ! People should learn them as well as their Sun sign, and know the cycles...a lot more people would understand where they are and why things are happening to them.
 

waybread

Well-known member
The ancient Sumerians, followed by the Akkadians and Babylonians invented astrology. We can't simply imagine its history, of which we have ample records. I highly recommend Nicholas Campion, The Dawn of Astrology; Gavin White, Babylonian Star-Lore; and Francesca Rochberg, The Heavenly Writing. See also White's article at Skyscript and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy .

These Mesopotamian cultures identified constellations along the path of the moon (not the sun, although they are similar) that roughly correspond to the constellations along the ecliptic that we know today; although some of their names and particular stars in the constellations varied. Because of the difficulty of calculating the sun-moon syzygy and eclipse dates using constellations, in ca. 400 BCE the Babylonian astrologers switched to using 30-degree signs named for the constelllations they overlapped. At that time, theirs was a sidereal zodiac, with the tropical signs becoming noticeably misaligned with them only several centuries later, leading to the tropical zodiac of western astrology.

When astrology originated with the Sumerians, the spring equinox was in Taurus. Due to precession of the equinox, it moved back into Aries ca. 2000 BCE; into Pisces around the time of Jesus, and now just possibly we are entering the "age of Aquarius." The introduction of the tropical zodiac, probably around 100 CE, fixed the equinox at Aries, but siderealists like Hindu astrologers still keep roughly with signs according to precession.

The order of signs by element (fire>earth>air>water) was added probably around 100 BC by the ancient Greeks, based on their Aristotelian science (of the day) with its four elements.

Modern astrologers like Dane Rudhyar have developed various imaginative narratives to explain the progression of the signs, but they don't have much to do with astrology's actual origins.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
But the archetypal structure of the zodiac has remained constant, and people have always used narratives to get their heads around it. These narratives change according to culture, and also the level of sophistication of human consciousness. There was a time when archetypes were known predominantly through projection onto gods, and mythical stories about their behaviour. Now we can also understand them in different ways. Rudhyar was a pioneer because he took a significant step in this regard, able to see the structures of astrological cycles as they had never been seen before.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Really there is less imaginative narrative in Rudhyars work, and more depth of insight into how we live the archetypes.
 

Rick

Banned
I'm sure it's older than the Sumerians...just because it's the furthest back a civilisation we've been able to study, doesn't mean it's the oldest one...humanity could have been relatively civilized for up to 300'000 years...
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
So here is how I picture the Zodiac..
Aries have birth Taurus. So Aries is the father and mother of Taurus
Taurus birth Gemini
Gemini birth Cancer
All the way to the end where Pisces birth Aries.

But then this is lead to the chicken and the egg question
Who came first?

Besides that question It is weird how fire signs always birth earth signs and earth signs birth air signs and air signs birth emotional signs. But it is also common sense.

So what do you think?
Origins.... :smile:

There are Sumerian texts from 7,000 years ago (circa 5,000 BCE) that talk about Planets ensnaring things in their "nets" and casting light and casting rays.


What does that mean? It means they were infinitely more intelligent than we are....this is the 21st Century, you have public education systems in nearly every State on Earth, and yet the vast majority of people don't even know that the formula for the Force of Gravity is...

F(g) = M1 * M2 / d^2

How would you explain Gravity to a child that is 4 years old?

"You know how you dip your net into the water to catch goldfish or tadpoles?"

"Yeah."

"Well, Gravity is just like your net, only you can't see Gravity."


It isn't until the late 1950s that our so-called "advanced civilization" figures out there really is a "net" and they call that "net" a "Gravity-well."

And so for science fiction shows for the next 20 years or so -- like the Original Star Trek -- you hear them saying things like: "Captain, we're going to get caught in the Planet's Gravity-well."

If you get stuck in Earth's Gravity-well, you need to be moving at a speed of 17,500 Miles Per Hour to escape the net...and no, I don't know what that is in Kilometers Per Hour (and don't care).

In the Arabic, Farsi, and Latin texts, you see the phrase "[Saturn]...hurling its rays at...."

That's real....it really happens....and that is science.

In reality, the Sun is the only celestial body that actually casts light; the Moon and Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn reflect light...

....that's why we can see them.

Light is electromagnetic radiation.

In the middle of the electromagnetic radiation band are the colors....to the right of the blues, you have violet, then ultra-violet (UV), then X-Rays, then Gamma Rays.

To the left of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum, you have your yellows, oranges, reds and then infrared (IR), microwaves, radar, VHF/UHF, short wave radio, AM and FM radio bands.

Your eyes have evolved to allow you to see select frequencies in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum which are the colors.

An object absorbs frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, but reflects certain frequencies back at you, and that is what you are seeing....the reflected frequencies -- the color --- the specific wavelengths in the electromagnetic radiation band.

Asteroids do not reflect light, therefore, logically, rationally, scientifically, asteroids have no impact or affect on you. Likewise, the Outer Planets -- Uranus, Neptune and Pluto do not reflect light, and they have no affect on you individually and there is no possible way using math or science to justify that they do.

In addition to reflecting light, the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn also hurl rays (although the Sun really does cast Ultra-Violet Rays, X-Rays and Gamma Rays).

Space is not "empty." Space is filled with particles -- electromagnetic radiation -- from the Sun.

As the Planets move through Space, their mass, their orbital velocity (speed) and their exact chemical/elemental make-up creates something called the magnetosphere.

The magnetosphere reflects (some but not all) electromagnetic radiation away from it.

The magnetosphere on each of the Planets is "tuned" to attenuate certain frequencies in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum. The Earth's magnetosphere does a great job of screening out Gamma rays, a decent job of screening out X-Rays, a mediocre job of screening out UV rays and then a really bad job of screening out everything from the colors through microwave, radar and the radio bands.

But, then....we already knew that, didn't we?

If the Earth's magnetosphere filtered out electromagnet frequencies in the color band, then we wouldn't see anything outside of Earth, and if it screened out frequencies in the radio band, we would not be able to communicate with are satellites and probes.

Anyway, the magnetospheres of the Planets reflect certain frequencies at certain rates to Earth....

...and that is scientific fact, not speculation.Since the advent of radio in the early 20th Century, it has been known that radio are affected by other forms of electromagnetic radiation. The primary cause is ionized particles in the Earth's stratosphere and mesosphere. The region in the stratosphere and mesosphere that is heavily ionized is known as the "ionosphere."

These ionized particles severely degrade the performance of microwave, radar, VHF, UHF, Short Wave and AM radio signals, and diminish the performance of FM radio signals.

This degrading of performance caused a lot of angst in the US Army, Air Force and Navy, and also with companies involved in radio communications, like Motorola.

It was noted that certain alignments of Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn could either neutralize the effects of the ionosphere, or amplify the effects. Scientific studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific and engineering journals showed that Planets in sextile marginally improve radio performance; in trine they strongly improve performance; in square they strongly hamper performance, and in opposition they severely impede performance; and that Planets in conjunction could harm or help.

What is the Doctrine of Aspects in Traditional Astrology?

Sextiles indicate weak friendship
Trines show strong friendship
Squares show enmity
Oppositions conflict
Conjunctions can be helpful or harmful
Well, there you go....scientific proof that people knew more about the world around them 7,000 years ago than they do now.

Anyway, asteroids do not have sufficient mass and/or speed to generate magnetopheres, which is the other reason we ignore them, and while Uranus and Pluto generate magnetospheres (no verification yet on whether Pluto does), they are nothing like the size of magnetospheres of Jupiter and Saturn, and their vast distance from Earth precludes the possibility that the Outer Planets can affect individuals...

...F(g) = M1 * M2 / d^2



As far as the mathematical side of Astrology, archeaological excavations in Jericho show it was inhabited and functioned as trading.military outpost 9,000 years ago circa 7,000 BCE. A fresco on a wall in one of the buildings depicts a crab --- Cancer. Well, no kidding, since 9,000 years ago was the Age of Cancer.



We know the Zodiac existed then. The Sumerians claim that 12,000 years ago circa 10,000 BCE during the Age of Leo there was a cataclysmic event on Earth, and that after this event, the pyramids at Gizeh were erected, and the sphinx --- a man's head on the body of a lion --- commemorated the event.



In caves in France and Spain,
drawings depicting a bow and arrow
were originally believed to be a symbol for hunting,
but now some archaeologists and anthropologists are claiming
that the bow and arrow are actually the symbol for Sagittarius,
and
that people occupied the caves during the Age of Sagittarius
some 22,000 years ago circa 20,000 BCE,
which would indicate the Zodiac existed even then.




And then Sumerian and Akkadian texts claim the Zodiac was put together during the Age of Pisces.

Because of the effects of precession, the Zodiac moves backwards... Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn, Sagittarius, until you get to 29°59' of Aries, and then eventually 15° of Aries and then eventually, um, Zero Point Aries.



So the Zodiac is ancient and more than that, it incorporates the Base 60 (Sexigismal) Number System instead of the Base 10 (Decimal) Number System.

Everything I have studied about Astrology going back to Mesopotamia, suggests one of two possible conclusions:

1] Astrology evolved from Numerology as a divination system; or

2] Numerology evolved from Astrology as a Poor Man's version of divination.I lean very heavily toward the latter. Does that mean I "believe in" Numerology?

No. I categorically reject it in is entirety.Why? I just explained why. It is 100% corrupted. Numerology was founded on the Base 60 Number System, so you cannot use it with the Base 10 Number System. If you could find and translate ancient texts about Numerology, and if you could figure out the Base 60 Number System, and if you could then correctly employ the Base 60 Systems with the doctrines, I think you might be onto something. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Anyway, there are so-called "sacred" numbers like 1, 12, 60, 72, 120, 360, 3,600 and 432,000 that are preserved in one way or another in many different schemes, systems and relationships.

Traditional Astrology (but not Modern Astrology) preserves a lot of those sacred numbers. There's an almost fanatical obsession with the number 120.

The number 120 is prominent in Hebrew texts, and 120 * 3600 = 432,000.

According to Norse (and other north/central European) traditions, there are 800 doors in Valhalla, and on Judgment Day, 540 warriors will exit each of the 800 doors...

....540 * 800 = 432,000

If we go to India, the yugas are based on multiples of 432,000.




Anyway, much of the knowledge about Astrology,
including the true mathematical basis and relationships were lost over time.




A group of people –- the Gutians -– came from where ever it was they came from and destroyed the people Kushites (who lived west of the Zagros Mountains) and then proceeded to dismantle Sumer & Akkad circa 2100 BCE.

Then there was about 100 years of “barracks emperors” (sort of like in Rome after Marcus Aurelius died) and then the Akkadians rose up and routed the Gutians.

Then circa 2000 BCE, there was the incident at Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains, which scientists and archaeologists are now suggesting an asteroid or comet exploded over the region in the same manner as Tunguska causing its destruction.

For whatever strange, fascinating, bizarre reason, that incident caused the total collapse of the Sumerian Civilization, and they fled, never to be seen again (supposedly), and then the Amorites --- erroneously called Babylonians --- over-ran the Akkadian Civilization and that was the end of that.

To make matters worse, circa 1900 BCE, the Celts, a group of Slavs and another unknown group over-ran and totally wiped out the Hittite Kingdom and Civilization.

Just as Rome was the cultural and scientific learning center of the world, and the light went out when it was destroyed and we entered the Dark Ages, the same thing happened here.


Sumer & Akkad were the cultural and scientific learning centers of the ancient world, and when the light went out, we entered the Dark Ages.


Information flowed from Sumer & Akkad to Egypt, and then through the Hittite Kingdom to the Eastern Greeks in Phrygia and Lydia, and then to the Western Greeks on the mainland. The destruction of the Hittite Kingdom cut off the flow information out of Mesopotamia, and the destruction of Sumer & Akkad cut off the flow of all information.

From that point forward, you have two separate distinct civilizations rise, the Greeks and the Egyptians (and further east of the Zagros Mountains the Persians and Medes).

And then the Greeks conquer the Egyptians and Persians, and then the Romans conquer all of them, and then the Turks conquer all of them, and the next thing you know, it’s Spring-time in Germany for Hitler.

If people cannot figure out an organic alcohol chain or botch it up its formation, that does not mean that organic chemistry is fatally flawed….it just means people don’t get it.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with Astrology, but there are people who don’t get it, people who muck it up intentionally, and then the artful practitioners are still trying to get to the bottom of many of the doctrines, and that’s hampered by not having access to texts or being able to locate/recover ancient texts.

So, there you go.


 

waybread

Well-known member
miquar, a lot of astrology-people like Dane Rudhyar, and that's fine. I don't care for his "evolution through the signs" thesis personally, however, because it seemingly postulates Aries at the bottom and a more enlightened Pisces at the top, overlain by a similar strategy for the houses by-the-numbers. Astrological time is always circular, with Aries coming after Pisces, and house #1 coming after #12.

I don't see the need of adding another layer of mythology today onto the ones present in Antiquity when the constellations and fixed stars were used in early astrology.

Rick, I'm going to stick with real-world archaeology on this one, conducted by scholars with actual archaeology credentials. However, I take your point, as some of these scholars do think that paleolithic drawings in the caves of Lascaux include a partial sky map showing the constellation Taurus and several other fixed stars. These are possibly 16,500 years old, certainly older than Sumer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/871930.stm

Lemurians, anyone?
 

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miquar

Well-known member
But because its a recurring cycle, Aries comes after Pisces. Rudhyar had Sun in Aries, and saw himself as relatively evolved.
 

miquar

Well-known member
In Rudhyar's work, the step from Pisces to Aries is as important as any other step between signs. But we have to start talking about a cycle at one point or another, and the first point of Aries is a good place to start because it resonates with many people's intuitive sense of rebirth. (Some prefer the first point of Capricorn)
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
There are 3 levels of signs, divided into 4 groups of signs each: Primitive or younger (Ari, Tau, Gem and Can), Intermediate or middle (Leo, Vir, Lib and Sco) and Developed or older (Sag, Cap, Aqu and Pis). There are also 4 seasons (this applies to the Northern hemisphere, but can be reversed in the southern) of 3 signs each: Spring (Ari, Tau and Gem), Summer (Can, Leo and Vir), Autumn (Lib, Sco and Sag), and Winter (Cap, Aqu and Pis).

Primitive, Intermediate and Developed signs would share similarities within the group. Maybe why Aries and Taurus are stubborn with Cancer's strong emotions, and Capricorn and Aquarius are logical while Pisces can relate to these others' mindsets. There are two halves: from Aries to Virgo, and Libra to Pisces. And the controversial groupings of uni-planet ruled signs: Taurus to Libra vs. dual-planet ruled signs: Scorpio to Aries.

The zodiac comes from the Sun's travels through the ecliptic in each one of the 12 constellations about 30-31 days each, as well the lunar month cycles of the Moon's phases about 28-29 days each. Astrology through astronomy its sister science gave us a calendar to measure time in a very effective efficient manner. You find variations of astrology in Eastern or Asian cultures, Sub-Saharan African and Native American tribes, and yes our western/ European calendars based in the northern hemisphere.

Ancients could have considered Pisces or Aries (the vernal equinox) as the start of the year, and ended in Aquarius or Pisces. Other cultures may had their year start in summer or winter solstices, or autumn equinox (i.e. the Jewish calendar and the Cherokee tribal year). The Islamic calendar is lunar-only, doesn't follow the solar seasons. Whether or not all cultures viewed Aries the same way as the "newborn/baby" or Pisces as the "near-death/ending" of a zodiac life cycle in their calendar year is up for debate.
 
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