Did his mother give him the message?

Okay, I broke down and called him yesterday afternoon. His mother answered and said he was taking a nap. I left my number and asked her to give it to him, with the request that I would like him to call him back. She said she would, but I don't really trust her. Did she give him the message?

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I first asked the question "Did he get the message?" at 10:42am this morning-8/4/07, but got an early ASC of 1'59" Libra. I thought to re-ask it this evening, but rephrased it, "Did his mother give him the message?" Therefore I see the "other" person in this chart as his mother, being the 7th, the one I had interaction with, and her probably being my open enemy.

Okay, my attempt at interpretation......
ASC is Aquarius, using traditional rulers, I am signified by Saturn, which is in her house at 26* Leo. Her house is Leo, which would be the Sun at 12*Leo in the 6th. His house would be her turned 5th, or Sag, so Jupiter (r) at 9* Sag in the 10th. My communication house, and her communication house sigs are the same - Mars at 28*Taurus in the 3rd. His turned 3rd, for communication, is my house, so Saturn in Leo again, which is in his mother's house,(the 7th). Is there any significance that Neptune is exactly conjunct(by 3 minutes) the ASC, which is both my sign, and his communication sig?

The sig for both mine and his mother's communication is Mars at 28*Taurus/3rd, and his Communication Sig, my sig, is in his mother's house at 26*Leo, and they are square? Is she trying to control communication by holding on to the message? POF is at 2*Gemini/3rd? Does he think it is long distance? (The first 3 numbers probably look unfamiliar to the area. I was told by the company that anyone within the zip code I gave could call it local, though.) Did she fail to give him that part of the message? His mother's sig and his sig are trine. The sig for my house of electronic devices (11th) and his sig, are the same (Jupiter-r) in 10th.
The Moon, my co-sig, is at 0*Taurus in the 2nd, don't see any aspects.

I'm really befuddled by that Neptune conjunct the AC, being his communication Sig. Since the ASC is Aquarius, and that rules electronic communication devices, it seems awfully significant.

Not sure what to make of all of this.....Any thoughts from the rest of you?
I promise to give you feedback on what the deal is when I find out.

Trying out my horary skills a little more (or showing my inadequacy,as the case may be....:38.......

I was wondering if seeing what Mercury is doing in the chart would shed any light. Mercury is at 0*Leo in the 6th.
Also, I was trying to see what the Moon, my co-sig does. It has just entered its sign. The aspects it makes are thus:
It is currently making an exact square to Mercury, and trining Venus(r) then.....
It will inconjunct Jupiter, his sig.
It will square the Sun, her sig.
It will sextile Uranus.
It will square Neptune/ASc.
It will square Saturn, my sig.
It will inconjunct Pluto.
and last but not least, I think the last aspect it makes before it leaves its sign is a conjunction to Mars, which is mine and her communication sig, and this happens right before Mars changes signs. So what happens to the communication when Mars changes signs on August 7?

I decided to ask the Sabian Oracle if his mother gave him the message.

This is the answer I received:

Two men playing chess. 3*Sagittarius

That sure seems to fit the situation. But it could be taken one of two ways....
It could mean that I make a move, then the other makes a move. Maybe he is trying to decide what move to make.
OR
It could mean that his mother is countering my moves strategically.

Hmmmm......

I'm no horary champ by any means....and I don't wish to usurp Archergirl's place as the no-nonsense-tell-it-like-it-really-is-girl. (The world needs more gals like her). But I wanted to say that maybe you're trying to close this door with this guy rather than open up a new chapter? Venus is Rx. Whenever our love goddess decides to flush herself in reverse, old emotional baggage seems to crop up for us to deal with. Perhaps this resurgance of feeling has something to do with Venus kicking it backward...
Neptune seems to be linked with the AC. From what I've seen, that placement usually has a deceptive quality to it, or there's some sort of illusion that is keeping the questioner from realizing the truth of the situation. Maybe he wasn't napping? Perhaps you're expecting too much to come from this call? Only time will tell.

If I were you, I'd find something else to occupy my mind before you frazzle yourself. Believe me, I've been there and somehow continue to end up at the place of overthought and expectation.
Go watch a movie, read a book or study karate so you can kick Venus in the pants for going Rx and ruining the lives of so many gentle folk.
I hope I helped a little in some oddball way.

Jen,

Thanks so much for your thoughts!

You wrote:

But I wanted to say that maybe you're trying to close this door with this guy rather than open up a new chapter? Venus is Rx. Whenever our love goddess decides to flush herself in reverse, old emotional baggage seems to crop up for us to deal with. Perhaps this resurgance of feeling has something to do with Venus kicking it backward...

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You said that I'm trying to close this door rather than open up a new chapter. It's interesting that you should say that. Another forum member pm'd me about the situation earlier today. I noticed in my formulating my reply what my issue was. For months now, I've pretty well blown the situation off. However, as I wrote, I keep getting all these "signs" and synchronicites that would seem to be saying for me not to blow it off. I think I'm a little too senstive to the slightest hint of what might be romantic rejection. And, yes, you're right - the Venus retrograde does seem to be kicking up stuff. It's like I feel that I absolutely have to get to the bottom of this, where all these past months I had let it slide, thinking it hopeless.

he fl,
that was really brave of you to give the call.
Now you know the drill ...pick up a number between 1 and 249.
Another different thing, you should be seeing the mother, which is the 4th not the 7th in Vedic, dunno in western though.

Jen,

Go watch a movie, read a book or study karate so you can kick Venus in the pants for going Rx and ruining the lives of so many gentle folk

Click to expand...

Pretty impressive...man i learn sooo much in this forum...

All the best FL,
sandeep

Thank you Sandeep!

I pick number 178.

Another different thing, you should be seeing the mother, which is the 4th not the 7th in Vedic, dunno in western though.

Click to expand...

I would be very interested to see how you interpret it using Vedic, if you would like to try.

Also, I think you may have misunderstood the way I assigned significators. Since I talked to the mother, and see her as a problem, and I specifically asked "Did SHE give him the message?", I decided that she would be the primary person in the questions, and that he would be secondary, as her son. This is because I'm identifying her as the person of the 7th house, possibly an open enemy, which is 7th house. Still interested in seeing a Vedic interpretation. (Hint.Hint.) Different viewpoints often see things in it that were missed by just one person looking at it.

Peace,

Freedomlover

Hi Freedomlover,

I won't spout so much on this one.

Just to say that, regardless of how you view her, you might still want to try the turned 10th from your guy's house; e.g. he's the 7th, so she'll be the 4th. This is about a relationship within a relationship, so her position in regards to your guy's (as his mother, with whom he lives) needs to be considered.

Open enemies sounds pretty good, though.

Neptune, if it is within 5 degrees of the Ascendant, is saying something about 'rose-tinted spectacles'...

PS. She hasn't given it to him, yet.

Best,
AG

Archergirl,

Thanks so much for replying!

I understand what you are saying about his turned 10th. If I had asked "Will he call me back", I would have used it that way. However, since I was asking specifically about my relationship with her, as to whether she is actively sabotaging our communication, I thought she would be the primary other person. It's not really about him -it's about her, at least in reference to this particular question. I am open to correction on this, though, if I have determined sigs wrong by horary, etc, as I am still struggling to learn. I just said this to clarify the question.

You wrote:

PS. She hasn't given it to him, yet.

Click to expand...

Do tell!!!! Please, please show me how you saw this in the chart, both to satisfy my curiosity, and to teach me a horary thing or two. I really, really, really, want to learn horary! That's one reason I'm asking so many questions (the other being that I really need help). I figure the best way to learn anything is to jump in and do it - "hands-on" experience.

If you are right, this will add a lot of fuel to my theory that she is really doing everything she can to keep us apart. If you can see that she hasn't given him the message, can you see why she hasn't?

Thanks so much!

HI FL,
I am taking this ques in the way you described it later.
"is his mother withheld informarmation"
And AG is right in this case
he's your 7th and she is his 4th, so we have to see it from the 10th.
And AG is very right, infact, in horaries (in vedic) whenever a question is asked, you get Very clearcut information as to the state of the mind of the person in ques, and whatever he's asking.
If a person is thinking about relationships, the whole chart seem to point towards that, and the numbers would show similar things, if someone was intending to sell off property, again the whole makeup of the mind at that point of time is reflected in the chart.
In your case, Ha (sorry to be sarcastic), i think she doesn't even Contemplate giving him the message, i see sooo much aggression and revolt against you, full of 7s 8s and 12s, and the Worst part is, she's in the pretext that her actions are actully helpful to her son. She's not seeing it as a enemity towards you, but as a protectiong towards her son. (i am saying this cos i see a bit of 5s indicating love for her son..)
so yes she also take you as an open enemy...
sandeep

Hi Freedomlover, just a question: how did you determine that Mars was both your and her communication sign? Your 3rd house is ruled by Venus retro, her 3rd house is ruled by the Moon. (3rd. of the 4th, which is the 10th of the 7th (your friend). Venus retro goes towards Saturn which shows that your message is delayed or blocked. Mercury, being natural significator of messages is in the term of Saturn, another indication of delay.
Neptune on the Asc. is exactly that what the others also describe,(blurred vision) but also I think shows how confused you are about this. Saturn in the 7th is never a good thing. End of the Matter house is Mercury again and, like I said, in term of Saturn. The Moon past the sextile to Mercury, showing that you gave a message, or rather, called recently.
Last aspect of the Moon conjunct Mars is also not very pretty Im afraid.

Sandeep,

You wrote:

In your case, Ha (sorry to be sarcastic), i think she doesn't even Contemplate giving him the message, i see sooo much aggression and revolt against you, full of 7s 8s and 12s, and the Worst part is, she's in the pretext that her actions are actully helpful to her son. She's not seeing it as a enemity towards you, but as a protectiong towards her son. (i am saying this cos i see a bit of 5s indicating love for her son..)
so yes she also take you as an open enemy...

Click to expand...

Thanks so much for running that for me. That pretty well confirms my gut feeling as to what was happening (and has been happening.) I was just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't sound like I can trust her as far as I can throw her. She was sticky-sweet to me when I called, too, which makes her treachery all the worse. And you are very right, about her attitude, too, Sandeep. She thinks I'm the devil that is leading her poor son down the road to hell because I support him in believing in reincarnation, and because I believe in Astrology and read tarot cards. He's tried talking to her to show her truth, and she just keeps telling him he's going to hell. She will not open her mind to anything he says. She thinks I'm a major obstacle to her son "getting saved.". She doesn't see that I'm one of the best things to ever happen to him.

Starlink,

You wrote:

Hi Freedomlover, just a question: how did you determine that Mars was both your and her communication sign? Your 3rd house is ruled by Venus retro, her 3rd house is ruled by the Moon. (3rd. of the 4th, which is the 10th of the 7th (your friend). Venus retro goes towards Saturn which shows that your message is delayed or blocked. Mercury, being natural significator of messages is in the term of Saturn, another indication of delay.

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Hey, Starlink, so good of you to reply! The reason I say Mars is both of our communication sigs is because I was obviously half asleep when I interpreted the chart! You're very right! My sig IS Venus (r) in Virgo, in the 7th. Thanks for astutely pointing that out! However, I was using her as the 7th, because I specifically asked about HER action, as I suspected she was acting as my enemy. But I don't know if that works, now that my sig is not Mars..... I'd have to go back and look at it again. But it sounds like anyway you look at it, she is blocking our communication. Can you see anything in the chart describing her motivations, or if she will ever give it to him?

Neptune on the Asc. is exactly that what the others also describe,(blurred vision) but also I think shows how confused you are about this. Saturn in the 7th is never a good thing. End of the Matter house is Mercury again and, like I said, in term of Saturn. The Moon past the sextile to Mercury, showing that you gave a message, or rather, called recently.Last aspect of the Moon conjunct Mars is also not very pretty Im afraid.

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How do you see the interpretation of the Moon, my co-sig, conjuncting Mars as its last aspect before it leaves its sign? You're saying that her communication sig is my co-sig, which is what I'm doing? What does that mean that they are the same? and that they are conjuncting his communication sig? And what about Mars, his co-sig, the way you interpreted it, changing signs on the 7th of August? Thanks again for your help!

Hi FL

Okay, here's how it is...

I've taken the radix 4th house for his Mother, ruler Gemini/Mercury. Mercury is 'Under the Beams' of the Sun (your guyfriend); there is something 'hidden' about it; Lilly says when someone wants to do something 'secret' you will find the planet Under the Beams.

Venus in this case will rule the 'message', 3rd house; it is retrograding back toward 'you', Saturn, in the 7th house of your guyfriend. Venus and Mercury have no aspect to one another.

The Moon rules the 'action' of a chart, and here we see that the last aspect the Moon made was a square to Mercury, the mother. Since your question was 'Did she give him the message?', a square indicates 'no'.

HOWEVER, we see that the next aspect the Moon makes is to trine Venus; so this tells me that the message *may* arrive at its destination, albeit with some reluctance on the part of the messenger. Venus is about to retrograde back into the sign of your guyfriend. Your guyfriend, as the Sun, is caught in the middle of all this, without aspecting either of you. The Moon will square him eventually; again, he *may* get the message; I lack the skill to see it any further than this. I'll poke around some more with the chart.

Cheers,
AG

Archergirl,

Thanks so much for the explanation!

You wrote:

I've taken the radix 4th house for his Mother, ruler Gemini/Mercury. Mercury is 'Under the Beams' of the Sun (your guyfriend); there is something 'hidden' about it; Lilly says when someone wants to do something 'secret' you will find the planet Under the Beams.

Venus in this case will rule the 'message', 3rd house; it is retrograding back toward 'you', Saturn, in the 7th house of your guyfriend. Venus and Mercury have no aspect to one another.

The Moon rules the 'action' of a chart, and here we see that the last aspect the Moon made was a square to Mercury, the mother. Since your question was 'Did she give him the message?', a square indicates 'no'.

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Ah, "under the beams"... interesting. How close does a it have to be to be under the beams of the Sun? I also see that I have to look at activity the Moon has already been doing for past occurrences. Hence the Moon square Mercury = No. What does Mercury's sextile to Mars in Taurus/3rd (his communication sig) indicate?

HOWEVER, we see that the next aspect the Moon makes is to trine Venus; so this tells me that the message *may* arrive at its destination, albeit with some reluctance on the part of the messenger. Venus is about to retrograde back into the sign of your guyfriend. Your guyfriend, as the Sun, is caught in the middle of all this, without aspecting either of you. The Moon will square him eventually; again, he *may* get the message; I lack the skill to see it any further than this. I'll poke around some more with the chart.

Click to expand...

Okay, I'm under the impression that the Moon is my co-sig,and therefore the action I'm taking. So, this would be me taking steps to see that he gets the message? I've been thinking about writing him. Perhaps he gets the mail, and thus she could not intercept? That would be an "earthy" action, as well, (Taurus), vs the phone, which is "airy"? Actually a letter was my first thought, but the phone was so much easier. (or so I thought)

You said that he is the Sun in the middle, not aspecting either of us. So, he is oblivious that anything is going on, it seems.

Thanks again for all your help!

I asked the question about writing the letter instead. I may post it later.

Freedomlover

Hi FL,

How close does a it have to be to be under the beams of the Sun?

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Under the Beams is within 17 degrees of the Sun. If it's 8 degrees or closer in the same sign, it then becomes combust. Within 12 arcminutes? Cazimi.

I'm under the impression that the Moon is my co-sig,and therefore the action I'm taking. So, this would be me taking steps to see that he gets the message? I've been thinking about writing him. Perhaps he gets the mail, and thus she could not intercept?

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Yes, this would be a good explanation for the Moon applying to you, especially on the tail of that Moon/Mercury square. If you type the address on the letter (instead of handwriting), it's more likely to reach him unopened (I have experience with these covert operations, you see... ).

Best,
AG

Archergirl,

Under the Beams is within 17 degrees of the Sun. If it's 8 degrees or closer in the same sign, it then becomes combust. Within 12 arcminutes? Cazimi.

Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the mini-lesson. I had no idea there was such a wide berth in being "under the beams".

Yes, this would be a good explanation for the Moon applying to you, especially on the tail of that Moon/Mercury square. If you type the address on the letter (instead of handwriting), it's more likely to reach him unopened (I have experience with these covert operations, you see... ).

Click to expand...

I was thinking that certified mail would be good, too. That way he'd have to sign for it. I could explain why in my letter. Just some thoughts.....

Thanks again for all your help!

Freedomlover

Feedback on what happened:

I did finally write him the first week of March, 2008. He called the day after he got the letter. He said that his mother did give him the message, but that he didn't call me back because his mother kept trying to convince him that I was a witch because I believed in reincarnation and was into astrology, etc. We talked for 3 hours, and kept in touch every few days for 6 weeks or so. He had bought some Sylvia Browne books the few weeks before I called him, and had gotten a little firmer in what he believed himself. Therefore, he felt comfortable talking to me again. Then his mother enlisted the rest of the family and church members to mount an attack against him and to convice him that they were right and he was wrong. He went back to doubting if he and I were in the right, and cut off communication with me again. He said, "I've got to live with these people."

Sigh.....

I finally moved on - what can one possibly do in that kind of situation?

Not for nothing, but if your asking about him receiving your message wouldent it be easier to look for contacts between your 3rd house ruler and him? I mean your asking if HE received your message, yes? So maybe he would be 7th house? Looked at this way the moon transfers light from venus to the sun. A square still shows an event but with difficulty and delays.

(Following is a test of the experimental Walis Magic 8 Ball astro-divination method and is not standard horary practice; following uses whole sign house format)

This is a known outcome horary: the outcome was yes she did give him the message.
What would the Magic 8 Ball have indicated (based on the original horary reference chart)
-I agree with the OP and would take the 7th house as significator of the mother; therefore the 3rd from the 7th would signify the mother's actions re to communications, in this case whether or not she passed on the communication (gave her son the message from the querent); so...
-3rd from 7th = Libra = Venus = yes (she gave him the message) according to 8 Ball "rules"
-suppose, however, we have problems with her (the mother's) signifying house?
The Part of the Mother can always be used to settle any signification question about mothers. In this reference chart the Part of the Mother (nigh formula = asc+venus-moon) falls at 23Gemini: therefore the mother's communications is the 3rd sign from her signifying sign, which = Leo = the Sun = a yes answer to the question according to the 8 Ball

Either way the 8 Ball indicated a yes (therefore a correct) answer to this question.