caught between two seats

First a little background: for the past few years my husband and I have been ferrying back and forth between big smoky London, and a rented little hideaway in a heavenly French forest, spending less and less time in the city. Besides it being quite tiring, not to mention expensive, keeping two places going and, as the French say, it is impossible to settle when your derriere is caught between two seats, we have decided to be brave and begin a transfer to France.

I wondered if anyone might comment on this chart please, it is about a house that we are considering to buy:

The question: ‘Is this a good house for us?’

15 Feb 2007 17:45 (time zone -1) Uzes, France 4E25 44N01

28 Leo Rising, 13 Taurus midheaven

As beautiful as it is, we started thinking about leaving the forest refuge so we could invest our time and energy into a place that would be ours, but in the same area. What we have found (so far) wasn’t exactly what we were looking for, which is back to nature with a view; this house has a large fairly well sealed in garden, as well as a pool (which I know would be great for my very debilitating chronic back condition), which is a feature well beyond what we hoped for, or even thought we could afford, but it would mean losing the horizon.

What’s also interesting is that when we first toyed with the idea last autumn we also saw this house; but then we were not in the position to make offers. Why the house has not sold baffles me; owned by Swiss people it has never been a home, used only a holiday place for the last 35 years, with everything in in excellent condition and in its rightful place – every one of the old man’s tools are labelled! The Moon’s last aspect was to Saturn in Virgo. The reason this house is for sale is because the old boy had a heart attack. The next aspect the Moon makes is to Uranus in Pisces (if we use modern planets), which could fit into our idea of changing the pool water from chlorine (which I have found out can be really bad for the heart) to salt. Sticking to traditional planets the moon's next aspect is to Mars, which is not so good for buying.

Curiously, with Mercury retro we went back to look at it again. Seeing this chart through a Cancerian Sun’s eyes, I look for long-term security, and coming from south London’s Brixton I like to know my walls are solid. The chart shows the solid 10th house Moon as the object, the home, but it is in Gemini, with 11th house Mars as ruler of the fourth house of the home also in Gemini. My first instinct is ‘no way’, even though it has enough room for two writing studios (his ‘n’ hers)!

Dos anyone else also think this Moon-Mars-Gemini combination is far too dodgy a combination for a home? On second thoughts perhaps it also means we have to keep both places on, for career reasons? Then I am not sure I have the energy. (It might be good to know that husband has 1st H Sag Moon, and I have 4th H Aries Moon; both are fiery and Mars orientated).

William Lilly states that when buying, the Moon and Mercury should be as far away as possible from being besieged by Mars, lest there be arguments, theft or fire.

Lilly also says the thing is the 4th house and its ruler, which describes the house, which is Mars in the 11th in Gemini; and the 10th and its ruler the price, which is Taurus, with Venus ruling in the 6th in Capricorn. Not such a bargain, then?

Mars rules the 4th in the North which, according to the lie of the land, now has a romantic vineyard, but because French wine has fallen out of favour this plot has been earmarked for a development of around 30 properties. But as there is to be a vote for local mayors all over France in March, absolutely nothing is being developed (at least for two years, in this case as the paper work will take that long – an 11th H Mars in Gemini?).

Another off-putting factor may also explain another side of the duplicitous Mars aspect; to the South-South-East is a neighbour who has at least four hunting hounds, a yard full of 4x4’s (some broken) and a load of chooks. And although I adore the idea of being woken up to the rooster’s alarm, and am a lapsed veggie who only eats meat for medical reasons once a week, I can’t abide hunting, or the idea of it, and can see how I might very quickly develop an aversion to him, especially as the hunting season here is 7 months long.

There is also ‘lost land’ at the end of the garden, almost in his direction that looks quite vulnerable. Looking at the chart it was here, particularly with Moon Mars in Gemini that I became quite suspicious.

While I am the Sun is in Aquarius in the 7th conjunct Neptune (having an astrological pool party!), Mercury is in his joy in the 6th, healing and working up an electrical Aquarian storm. Mercury also rules this charts' 2nd house of bricks and mortar. At this point I stopped projecting us into the place, as it all seemed to point back to the two homes we were trying to give up. Should I have done? Or should we make a really silly offer, and see what happens? Or carry on between the two places? Or should we keep on looking?

Generally speaking this is very Mars and Mercury/Saturn chart, as most planets are either ruled or lorded over by one or the other, so thinking realistically I have to be honest and admit the glamour of the pool house is something I have fallen for (I have Sun conjunct Uranus square Neptune), when really we are looking for somewhere humble where we can deepen our meditation practice. Yet, the sun conjunct Neptune in this chart fits both needs symbolically, and rather nicely! It also describes the disappointment if we do not go for it. Thankfully, the Mercury and Chiron square my natal Saturn, so I am not so emotionally involved.

My other question (having never bought a house before, hence the caution), is it advisable to erect an event chart for buying, or stick to the horary?

Thank you for any consideration.

Duh!
Mercury retro alert, previous chart is set for 07, not 08...
here is the right one!

with
love and clear moonlight (especially with upcoming eclipse)!

Many thanks.

Hi there,

The chart you've posted is for 15 Feb 2007. Is that the chart you wanted? If the Ascendant is at 28 degrees, I'd be careful.

I'll look more later. Going on a bike ride.

Cheers,
AG

Okay, I adjusted the time, but the reading doesn't change. You, planetmotion, have made a very complicated reading out of something simple!

I would be cautious with this house, and here's why.

You, the buyer, are placed in the house of the seller, the 7th; and being in detriment, in the house and sign opposite to yours, puts you at a very distinct disadvantage.

The seller, the 7th, is placed in your house (perhaps keen to sell to you), is a retrograde Saturn, and with this placement I would be very careful indeed. They may renege or pull out at the last moment, and you'd be screwed.

The house itself is ruled by MARS (not Pluto, Coffee, for Pete's sake ), peregrine, which means that the condition of the house is deteriorating, and in less than five degrees the condition of the house moves into its fall (which may literally mean that it 'falls apart'!).

The price of the house, ruled by the 10th, Venus, is 'void of course' in a way; the price must be on the low side with Venus in that condition, and because it's in a cardinal sign you may be able to negotiate a lower price. But I'd beware that Saturn in the 1st. The ruler of your own money, Mercury, is retrograde, and may indicate a need to go 'back to the drawing board'.

Since you and the seller are both in one another's houses, it indicates signs of 'mutual desperation' in a way; and you are applying to oppose one another. This may represent the fact that you *will* do a deal on the house (the Moon translating the light between you (the Sun) and Mars (the house) would reinforce this; there is not an interfering aspect to this.

I don't normally use the outer planets as they interfere with things, but you will note that Neptune sits *exactly* on the Descendent angle: the seller. I'd take notice of this. What is the seller not telling you? What information have they omitted, or obfuscated, or 'got creative' with?

Your Sun sits very close to this; and I would suggest that there are things that you cannot see here, that you really should be paying attention to. This is not a 'pool party' as you blithely put it; Neptune in a horary is not a good thing, at all.

So: house is not in as good a shape as it seems on the surface, and about to get worse. The price seems reasonable, but with Neptune on the seller's angle, I'd want to know, too, why the house hasn't sold in so long?

That in itself should be a red flag. My mother brokered real estate deals for twenty years, and she says: if a house is on the market for that long and doesn't sell, there are either of two things (sometimes both) wrong with it: 1. Price 2. Condition.

You say it's in good condition, but watching some programme about people buying abroad, some nice English girl bought the house of her dreams in France at a scream of a price (but still mortgaged her up to the hilt). What the seller didn't tell her, and what she only discovered after some time there, was that the house was basically a hollowed-out shell, ravaged by termites. She couldn't get her money back; she had no jurisdiction over the seller.

So I'd be careful.

There is nothing particularly *stopping* you from buying this house, from what I can see in the chart. Whether you *ought to* without some serious consideration and considerable amount of digging to find out why it hasn't sold, would not be wise. As Mr. Archergirl says: measure twice, cut once.

And because Saturn is retrograde, I'd watch that seller.

Good luck!
AG

Thank you so much Archergirl and Coffee, it's really helpful to be able to post such a 'BIG' question for a Cancerian gal, and to hear different view points is a breath of fresh air.

Archergirl, your input has given me much food for thought: I think you are right about several asepcts including the seller and us being kind of mutuallly desperate, they need to sell and we need to get going. But as you so rightly pointed out mercury is retro and we will do nothing until it moves... the fact I need to do more research was nicely reiterated by you.

Your observation regarding Mars (ruler of the home) going into detriment is interesting - is that where you got the information about something happneing to the house in five years, or did you deduce it from when the moon aspects mars? This may, of course, be the vineyard in the north that is proposed for developement? I hope it isn't the house itself!

Another question I'd like to ask:

How is Venus 'sort of' void of course? I have never heard of any other planet, bar the moon, being void of course.

*****

Coffee, your succinct no-frills take was great, thank you, and made me smile!



Thank you both again, I'll keep you informed,
with many blessings and love
plan-mo

Hello PlanetMotion! I find this a very interesting question.
I have not looked at AG's interpretation yet as I would like to see for myself. Afterwards I will compare.

I have this planetary hour chart and it gives for 16.54-18.08 a ruler of the hour being the Sun. Strangely enough my Solar Fire programm gives me Jupiter?? No comprendo!!!
Planetary ruler of the day is Venus (same as in SolarFire).
Anyways, no considerations before judgements to be found.

You are Sun in the 7th, VOC. showing that you really dont know what to do. You are also in term of Mars, and Face of the Moon and see there, Moon is in Gemini, double sign, you are indeed between two choices here (facing two choices). Moon is your co-significator and shows the same of course. Moon is accidentally dignified in the 10th.

But Sun is in detriment. Even so, the North Node is found in the 7th and soon you will conjunct him. You are accidentally dignified in the 7th, counteracting a bit the debilitating circumstances of VOC and detriment.

Part of Fortune is in 12°48' Sagittarius in the 4th in the same degree as Jupiter at 12°56' who happens to be in his fall and outgoing the exact semi-sextile (actually I dont do in semi sextiles, but when it is this close, I think it has meaning.) I feel that it does not show good luck.

Your 1st house is the 4th, your second is the 7th as you undoubtly know, looking at your own (showing knowledge of horary)interpretation.
Saturn, even though he is retrograde, he is Mutual reception by Face and Rulership with the Sun. It shows that you like the house.

I think the house is pretty run down.
The walls of the house are ruled by Saturn (Gemini and Aries, so Mercury and Mars). Saturn is retrograde, Mercury is in the 12th house of the house itself and also retrograde, but OK, in own term but Mars shows that basically the walls are strong (Mars in own term and in 11th house). Mars could also show that your house in the UK is in a far better state.

The French house will probably need some touching up which could cost you probably more than you anticipated (Mercury's next aspect conjunction painful Chiron. This is not really what I should included but I just could not ignore it).

The owner of the house is 7th house and Neptune conjunct the 7th house cusp, mmmm.... could show that he is deceptive, and shows that you are looking through rosy glasses(is that the expression?) overidealizing things a bit when you first saw the house.(Sun left conjunction with Neptune).
But reality will step in when Sun will oppose Saturn in about 8 weeks. Sun will have entered Pisces by then and in this sign Sun is Peregrine. I dont think you will go on with your plan of buying this house.

You mentioned the neighbors whom you think you will dislike because of the hunting dogs. Lets see what the 3rd of the 7th shows. It is Mars again in the 5th house of the seller (he probably likes hunting as well). I dont think however that those neighbors would be unkind as Mars shows an incoming trine to your Sun and Moon approaches Mars. It also shows that the neighborhood is to your liking.

So back to the question if this house would be good for you. The fact that it belonged to Swiss (I had to laugh out loud about the labeled tools, typical Swiss, I live amongst them!!) is probably a good sign. They do care for their things. But they are also, unfortunately, very much money orientated. The guy is clearly in financial trouble (his 2nd house is ruled by Jupiter in fall) and if you exchange Uranus for Neptune because of their mutual reception, then you could say that selling the house would put him into a better position as Neptune would be dignified in own sign.

Moon is squaring Uranus. Does this mean that you have left the UK already? You mention:

to the two homes we were trying to give up.

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Do you mean the house in the UK and the charming French refuge you used before?

Look, Moon is leaving the square to Saturn and does not make another aspect to it. Sun and Saturn are in a weak sort of Mutual Reception. Sun is in detriment, Saturn is retro. I dont like that. Sun is going to oppose Saturn.
Those are the negatives.
The positives are the trine of Mars, end of the matter house, to the Sun, and Moon getting to conjunct Mars, showing that you go abroad (or went abroad) Last aspect of the Moon before leaving her sign is a trine to the Sun and North Node. What I am seeing though is, that by then, the Moon will be besieged by Mars and Saturn, rulers of the owner and the neighbors and if you will, opposing Pluto which could show that enormous renovations to the house will have to be made. If your budget allows that (Mercury is strong, +7 Points) and you are willing to put a lot of work into this, then I would say go ahead, you can make a good place out of it. After all, Saturn receives +5 points!! I personally would not get into this. It all looks too tricky for me.

The point distribution in this chart is almost 50/50.
Sun, Moon and Jupiter together minus 15 points and Mercury, Venus, Mars and Saturn together 17.

Now I am going to read the others interpretations. Cheers, Starlink

Hi planetmotion,

No planet besides the moon is technically 'void of course', but IMO it kind of works the same way for all the planets. Venus is at the end of her sign and makes no aspects; she will gain no dignity by entering Aquarius, either, so I don't see this as any sort of improvement.

Mars, however, is also at the end of his sign, and moves from being only peregrine and into the sign of his fall, Cancer: a surefire description of something deteriorating in condition. He moves to Cancer in roughly five degrees, so we can extrapolate that this will perhaps also provide a rough time estimate for things to worsen. I don't think I said 'five years' per se, but this is a reasonable time frame, for sure. I don't know whether it's the vineyard or not; Mars rules the house itself, and perhaps the land around it.

As you suggested, a thorough research is needed, especially if the surrounding area is going to be developed.

Best,
AG

AHH Archer Girl, this is funny. You took the 4th house, I took the 4th of the 4th and still we came more or less to the same conclusion. I liked your

'mutual desperation'

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remark, very good indeed!
As I am a Taurus and my back is also not anymore what it used to be, I personally would not even dream of starting renovation and the likes on that house, but maybe PM and her husband do not mind. The pool sounds great, but I once had a pool, loads of work to keep that clean!! Never again. My ex husband is stuck with it now and much to his wifes chagrin, she has to clean it now LOL!!

PLANET, any planet can be VOC when it does not make any more aspects to another planet before leaving her or his sign. It shows often that a person is at the end of her rope or about to get into a new situation (new sign).
You are clearly at this point, wanting to start a new life abroad. Just think about the house real well.

Cheers to the both of you! Starlink

HOORAY for BRILLIANT ASTROLOGY!
BRAVO & Thank you wonderful Ladies!

I don’t consider myself a horary whiz one bit, but I love its’ uses and am fascinated by the accuracy. I also appreciate every helpful tip. To be honest I never really used horary before I began using Lilly’s buying and selling rules a few years ago, actually quite successfully. So forgive me for not getting the horary right – I like to try, though.

Having done a little more ‘home’ work, a third visit to ‘pool house’ revealed a huge crack from roof to floor in the porch, filled with some sort of grey plastic. A Saturn in the 1st (which fyi is right on my prog Sun), and you both got this entrance ‘wall ‘very nicely!

You also are both right in as much as there would be some DIY, but from both your input it encouraged me to be objective. We now see there is more that we initially thought – this would make it more expensive in the long run, and the Venus in Capricorn would need a good price.

It seems that getting internet is also an issue there?! How mercury retro is that?! Made me laugh how literal the heavens can be! This I found out from (Moon in Gemini) neighbours who are both still waiting after three months. Needless to say I am not so enthralled with the idea of waiting to communicate.

Anyway, quite apart from this Mercury retro about to station, the update is that we have decided to stick to the eclipse rule for now, which is not to do anything life changing ten days before or until three days after major eclipses.

I hope the skies are clear where you are (pretty cloudy here in France).

Starlink

I also have Jupiter planetary hour with Winstar.
4th from the 4th – Phew! Turning charts is something I have never done and am not sure I have the confidence to do so. I'll have to experiment.

That all planets can be VOC is an amazing revelation – I will work with that one too.

You are Sun in the 7th, VOC. showing that you really dont know what to do. You are also in term of Mars, and Face of the Moon and see there, Moon is in Gemini, double sign, you are indeed between two choices here (facing two choices). Moon is your co-significator and shows the same of course. Moon is accidentally dignified in the 10th.

Click to expand...

It took me a while to figure out how the Moon is accidently dignified in the 10th with using term and face – got there in the end, thanks.

Part of Fortune is in 12°48' Sagittarius in the 4th in the same degree as Jupiter at 12°56' who happens to be in his fall and outgoing the exact semi-sextile (actually I dont do in semi sextiles, but when it is this close, I think it has meaning.) I feel that it does not show good luck.

Click to expand...

This is interesting – I always thought that semi-sextiles were okay…

Also interesting, this business of walls extends to GB, where the building is in an atrocious state (I won’t go into that situation as it is far too complex)!

Moon is squaring Uranus. Does this mean that you have left the UK already? You mention:
Quote:

to the two homes we were trying to give up.
Do you mean the house in the UK and the charming French refuge you used before?

Click to expand...

Haven’t left UK (have family there), but what I meant giving up trying to keep two places going.

There appears to be some contradiction in your judgment SL, between Mars having strong walls, and yet with all the interface with Saturn, the detriment Sun, and a Moon besiged by Mars and Saturn, there is an element of weakness (not to mention with my back!) within the walls. Besides the entrance wall, I am assured the structure of the house is sound, and I think it is; I am beginning to perceive that the Saturn retro could be the local commune giving permission to the farmer to build later on in the year, when he reapplies (as he has to) to the local mayor. And who knows what could happen building about 25 houses next door? Not that I am against people having homes built, everyone needs a home, but this might also be the depreciation of value that you both cautioned me on.

Archergirl, you’re so right: what you actually said was Mars moves into its detriment in 5 degrees, which my slippery Gemini Mercury tuned into years, a time frame that would perhaps fit with local plans to fully develop – apologies for any misinterpreting!

The upshot is that I’m letting go of this house for the time being, it is not looking like such the bargain! And although are not quite back at the drawing board, are open to new ideas and will keep looking until we head back to blighty in a month or so.
Thank you both so much for all your insight.
Have a wonderful eclipse!

HI PlanetM. thanks for the extensive feedback, really nice of you.

Turning charts is something I have never done

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It is very easy really. What could make it easier for you when you start doing this is taking the designated house (Quisited) as first house in a new chart. In this case put the 7th house on the Ascendant. You can print chart out and then turn it, putting 7th house on the left, change the housenumbers and you have the whole derived chart for the second house.

It took me a while to figure out how the Moon is accidently dignified in the 10t

Click to expand...

Planets in the 10th, 1st, 7th are called accidentally dignified because they fall in an Angle and Angles are powerful places to be. 4th house probably also, I just feel it is not so magnificent as the others. Must look that up myself to be sure.

This thing about the walls. I think it is another one of those significations in the book of Rex Bills Rulership book, where he writes that walls are signified by Aries and Gemini, as well as by Saturn. Now we saw that Saturn and Mercury are not so good, Mars is better (but gets worse in 5 years maybe?).
Probably, as you wrote, some things are really run down and another aspect of the walls is not that bad. A bit of intuition has gotten into this one I guess, after all, horary is very much based on intuition, much more so than natal astrology.