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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 03-15-2012, 05:07 PM
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The Twelfth House

I have saturn in my twelfth house in gemini. Its also the tip of a yod and the handle of a bucket.

I read many interpretations of the twelfth house but none really felt right for me. My personal experience is that the 12th is about our soul or spirit and the spiritual world, as opposed to our human body or the material physical world.

Where the 6th is concerned with work, service, health and other matters of the daily, material, physical, human world - the 12th is about work, service, health and maintenance of our soul or spirit (i.e. our higher selves) and the spiritual world (our real permanent eternal home). That's probably why the 12th causes circumstances that bring about disenchantment with this earthly material world - so that we lose interest in it and turn towards concerns of the immortal, eternal part of us, the spirit.

It has been true in my case - I have faced so many problems in life that I lost interest in it and turned towards spirituality - and now my main interest in life is seeking more information and knowledge about our soul or spirit and spiritual matters. I no longer am really interested in information or knowledge about our material, physical, earthly world. I have grown and changed a lot as a person - and I'm very grateful for that. I now realize that the most important thing in life is spirituality - i.e. to be a good, decent person and practice love, compassion and goodness towards all of creation. The mindless, robotic, brain-washed pursuit of self-interest, material possessions and superficial relationships leads us nowhere.

We incarnate many times on earth in order to grow spiritually, so the 12th house actually does us a great favor by turning our attention towards spiritual matters, thus accelerating our growth. Why does the 12th have such a negative reputation? It causes troubles in material life only so that we direct our attention to higher matters - instead of running after false values and endless desires of money, titles, possessions, attention, fame, etc which never satisfy ultimately. Real happiness only comes from within, and only from our own goodness - by showing us that, the 12th is actually a good house.

Since the 12th is the first house rising/risen on the eastern horizon as we are born - it shows us that the most important thing or our first concern is (or should be) spirituality. I think planets in the sky above (at the moment we are born) affect us the most maybe because their "rays" or vibrations reach us directly. Whereas those below the horizon when we are born - their rays would not be able to reach us.

Does any else have a similar experience with the 12th house?

Saturn is not "hidden" in the 12th - it is just being very patient (because the 12th is a spiritual, patient, tolerant, kindly, giving, peaceful, wise, modest, gentlemanly, well-bred, selfless house) while we are young. I think all the planets in the 12th are affected by this "gentlemanly" quality of the 12th - even mars behaves himself here most of the time. A gentleman goes out of his way to be good to others - even if this means inconvenience to himself - the selfish material world unfortunately sees this as a foolish, self destructive thing. This gentleman (with high morals, principles, ethics, values) gets depressed when he sees the ill-bred, selfish, superficial, corrupt behavior of the world - and thus might want solitude and isolation.


Last edited by Carris; 03-20-2012 at 08:00 AM.
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Unread 03-15-2012, 06:46 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Hello Carris,

I am very pleased to see that a recent thread has been created to specifically address issues concerning the twelfth house. It is a subject that I had intended to revive after doing a little more research to corroborate my theories, but, since you’ve done the honor, I’ll share my ideas here as I confirm them.

As an individual with two significant twelfth house placements (Sun and Venus), I become disillusioned and even frustrated with astrologers who paint dreary images upon the walls of this house. It is not a house of sorrow, enemies, or imprisonment. Such attributions are only projections of the fears of those who make them.

Theoretically this house should be one of potential and capacity, for its position above the Asc marks daybreak and the emergence of the Sun, signifying illumination. It is revelation and not concealment. How anyone could consider this sorrowful is beyond me, but I suppose many of the astrologers who espouse such beliefs have no significant placements here.

If we are to use the traditional meanings of the houses, and if the twelfth is taken to be antithetical to the sixth, then we can assert that the twelfth house encompasses all things outside of daily routine and mundane existence. It is ‘stepping behind the veil’, if you will. It is the realization that we are souls who possess bodies and not bodies who possess souls.
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Unread 03-15-2012, 07:29 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Not sure on this, but I have been told many times that the benefic here are generally well placed here since they cannot do harm to self or to others, which is what the 12th House usually does. That's the reason Saturn is said to joy in the 12th, because his "malefic" tendencies are dimmed by the 12th. Which leads to him not being able to harm the native, but can be "malefic" towards others (again correct me if I'm wrong).

Jupiter is the co-significator here since he rules the 12th and Venus finds joy here. I read somewhere once that the reason Venus joys here (as seen by ancient astrologers) is, because one can still see Venus shining bright even though the 12th is combust. Then Jupiter is attributed to providing a "guardian angel" sort of archetype here.

Mars, Moon, Mercury and Sun (I don't use the Outers) are generally believed to cause harm to others and self when places here, since teh 12th is still the house of self-destruction. Saturn just lessens the destruction part, and Venus and Jupiter cannon harm the native (I have read this before, but am not sure if it's 100% correct).
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Unread 03-15-2012, 07:33 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

SniperBomber328,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has lead you to believe that the twelfth house is a house of self-destruction?
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Unread 03-16-2012, 06:42 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Thanks RaptInReverie.

I have read a lot about "past life regression", near-death-experiences, reincarnation, karma, small children remembering their past lives and other spiritual matters. All these books have the same message - that we are souls that incarnate on earth several times just so we can learn and grow spiritually - that is the ONLY PURPOSE of life on earth.
And the 12th makes us aware of this purpose.

There is no such thing as destruction, imprisonment or self-undoing - EVERY experience is for our spiritual growth. If we keep pursuing selfish matters and refuse to turn our attention to spiritual matters - then our higher selves have to get tough with us. They have to put us in situations where we are forced to see that love and compassion is ALL that matters.

If working in hospitals, institutions, prisons etc helps us to feel love and compassion for all beings - then what is wrong with it?
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Unread 03-16-2012, 11:33 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Hm...I'm not sure how to overcome my fear of the 12th house.

Natally, I have Pallas in Aquarius in the 12th house, which could explain why I feel so strongly when I hear about people being persecuted for expressing their views (I may have been in that kind of trouble in a past life).

For a decade or so, I had a rough time with Neptune transiting my 12th house, I think it squared my 8th house Pluto at some point. I don't know, as Neptune was going through my 12th house, I feel like I have lost my sense of self.

Neptune is still going through my 12th house, but since it is in Pisces now, I feel lighter.

All right, I'll learn not to be afraid of the 12th house, learn to face anything "negative" about myself, provide selfless service during a 12th house period and be ok with not being in the spotlight for a while.

In this year's solar return, my Sun is in the 12th house, and I've dealt with it pretty well thus far by providing selfless service.
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Unread 03-16-2012, 04:09 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

If using horary astrology, then the house is a bad house (along with the 8th).

The house natally is a DIFFICULT house because it deals with difficult subjects. Depending on the planets that are there, and the signs that are, tells what kind of difficulty the person will feel. The 12th house is a necessary house. it is a spiritual house. It is the epitome of how the world is impermanent. People with significant 12th houses will understand this. But it is rarely an easy process. Sometimes you have to lose in order to gain that knowledge. And that is what the 12th house is about. Something feels lost, and when you search for it again, you make it better and are stronger. You have the ability to say good bye. So it isn't easy. The 12th is about losses, feeling separate. The 8th is about transformation and crises causing these transformations. Again, it depends on the planets, their signs, aspects, etc. though!
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Unread 03-16-2012, 06:04 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I agree with the OP in that I believe the 12th is largely about spirituality. I also have Saturn here (in Cancer and the apex of a Yod) and I feel that this position is asking for discipline in spiritual pursuits.

That being said, I can see how older views of the 12th house can be accurate. In times past with religious/spiritual oppression, or lack of choice in these matters, I can see this house being responsible for enemies or imprisonment. If planets are afflicted in this house I could see hospitals or institutions being present thru spiritual disturbance or misaligned spiritual development, perhaps...

Last edited by StillOne; 03-16-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Unread 03-16-2012, 06:19 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Carris, I think you've got a good grasp of the 12th house from a modern astrology perspective.

In traditional western astrology, the 12th was the house of the "bad spirit" and it had a horrible reputation. The 6th and the 8th weren't much better. In modern astrology, there are no inherently bad houses: each can confer benefits or difficulties.

One traditional reading of the 12th is "the house of self-undoing." I believe in Hindu astrology, this self-undoing is seen as positive because a Hindu master has relinquished attachments to ego and worldly pursuits. The 12th in modern astrology can be the house of mysticism, vs. the 9th which deals with conventional theology.

With Old Man Saturn in the 12th, you might initially be attracted to a traditional spirituality, which posts your higher power as the father or king metaphor. As you explore it further, however, you can let go of your attachment to God as appearing in any particular form. A positive use of Saturn is self-discipline, and you may have found yourself adhering to a traditional form of religious discipline; or alternatively, developing your own practices.

The 12th house also rules people who are shut-in in some way. Negatively, they might be unhappy prisoners, hospital patients, or nursing home inmates. Ideally, you can altruistically and selflessly serve such people. Positively, the mystic spends time in self-imposed isolation in order to meditate or pray.

Your Neptune, Jupiter, and 9th house will probably give further clues to your spirituality.
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Unread 03-17-2012, 07:45 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Yuusha

There is actually no "selfless" service because ALL IS ONE. See the same universal consciousness, supreme being or "god" in everyone and everything. God is ALL THAT IS.

So you are actually serving other parts of your Self - so you should be happy, peaceful and content about providing service - please don't feel as if it is a "loss" or "imprisonment" or something that you just want to get over with.

The opportunity and ability to serve is a great gift - only very fortunate souls get this gift. Its like being accepted into a top program at an (spiritual) Ivy League university.

There are 7 levels of consciousness before we souls finally become one with the source/god. All of us souls incarnate on earth are only on the 3rd level of consciousness - we still have 4 more levels to go. How do we progress to the 4th level and become free of the earth plane? Only by spiritual growth! And the 12th house is providing you with the best, fastest, easiest path for spiritual growth - selfless service. Rejoice!

Last edited by Carris; 03-17-2012 at 08:25 AM.
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Unread 03-17-2012, 01:18 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Hi I'll say two things: 1) modern astrology in my experience takes a doom-view of the 12th which is also a little unbalanced I think and 2) a malefic planet in the 6th or 12th can contain it's trouble or direct it elsewhere rather than at the native, that one I've read come from the ancient Greek texts.
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Unread 03-17-2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Hi I'll say two things: 1) modern astrology in my experience takes a doom-view of the 12th which is also a little unbalanced I think and 2) a malefic planet in the 6th or 12th can contain it's trouble or direct it elsewhere rather than at the native, that one I've read come from the ancient Greek texts.
In hindu astrology at least, a malefic in certain houses is a good thing. I don't necessarily agree, but whatever (Saturn in the 10th is good for instance or Saturn in the 6th). However the 12th house is universally considered to be an unpleasant house because, it is indeed the house of LOSS---but through this loss, you realize what is truly important. Just like the 8th is the house of CRISES. So these houses aren't good, and malefics ( weak or afflicted ones) will cause these problems to be worse. While benefics in the houses will decrease the effects of the house but the person may feel that the benefic influences of these planets are decreased in their chart. A strong jupiter in the 12th can give a person luck over losses and spirituality but the person may feel that materially speaking and health wise, they were ripped off.

In Vedic astrology (and traditional) the houses of the 6,8,12 are the worst. 8th and 12th are the ones where planets energies are always difficult as these are the houses of ego transformation.

Last edited by retinoid; 03-17-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Unread 03-18-2012, 04:04 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Retinoid,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has compelled you to believe that the twelfth house signifies losses and the eight house signifies crises? I would like to hear your reasoning behind this.
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Unread 03-18-2012, 04:47 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

The Twelfth is the House of Mourning, Sadness, Isolation, Self-Defeating or self-destructive acts and thoughts, Secret or Hidden Enemies, and is both the Prisoner and the Escaped Prisoner. It holds repressed psychological content. Of all the houses, the old astrologers considered it the major Infortune. Saturn in the 12th almost always shows "the father was not present in the life." This may mean either physical or emotional absence.

My son has that position, and I was physically/emotionally unavailable during much of his childhood. He also spent a good many years in prison, another meaning of the house of isolation when inhabited by Saturn.

I had a boss with the position. He inherited a thriving business from his father, who due to his dedication to work was not present in the boy's life. Now running the business while his father played golf, the young man spent 12 hours each of six days of the week working in his office, then retired to his upstairs apartment -- he lived and worked in solitude.

The way that Saturn in the 12th "works out" is described by looking at the rest of the chart and synthesizing the whole so that the detail (Saturn in the 12th) can be understood and properly interpreted.
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Unread 03-18-2012, 05:36 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Greybeard

Both my parents were and are very much present in my life both physically and emotionally. I do need my solitude - but mainly because I feel tired when I engage too much with the world - and now I also feel bored with the superficiality of social contacts and other wordly entertainments.

No matter how much I try, I can't see the 12th and spirituality as a negative thing. Why is prison a negative thing if it corrects your path, disciplines you and causes you to grow spiritually?

I have felt the sadness and frustration you talk of - but that only happens when the 12th is trying to detach you from material pursuits and getting you to focus your attention on spirituality. You certainly feel sad and frustrated that you messed up (self destruction?) your materialistic pursuit such as a high flying job, career, etc. But once I realized that kind of life would have led me nowhere - I stopped feeling sad.

Solitude is a type of meditation or communion with oneself. If solitude is spent in introspection, study, research, meditation, growth, relaxation, hobbies, etc - it is a very positive thing - I can't understand why people feel solitude or isolation is bad or negative or whatever.

I think that the only reason the 12th causes problems is because real true spiritual knowledge (i.e. the truth about our soul, karma and rebirth) is not available easily on earth - except in Buddhism. People confuse spirituality with religion - and most of the religions are untrue, harsh and dogmatic. How are people supposed to know why they are here on earth in the first place? How are we supposed to know that we are here only for spiritual growth and NOTHING else - not for money, career, cars, houses, etc. We just automatically, mindlessly try follow society's standards of what success is - lots of money, a fancy job, the "perfect" marriage and children, lots of social influence, etc - even though our ultimate happiness does not lie in it.

There is not a single person dead or alive who does not have "repressed psychological content". We souls are here to learn - Earth is a very tough school both physically and emotionally. There will definitely be hurt, pain, fear, anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. This is how we learn what forgiveness means, what compassion means and how important it is.

Just forgive youself and move on. Why blame the 12th house?

Last edited by Carris; 03-18-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Unread 03-18-2012, 07:52 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

You are reading "blame" into a dry description of what the 12th house signifies in astrology.

Mourning is a reality of life, as is imprisonment, lunacy, assassination, and all the rest.

There was no "blame" implied. That is merely your subjective "take" on the description.

Most certainly the 12th house leads (in some cases) to spiritual growth and even illumination or realization. The Hindus include the 12th among the "Moksha" houses.

Of course we all have repressed psychological content......and the 12th house describes that for each individual. What is so negative about that? Again, you are projecting the negativity into what is not negative, but merely factual.

You are imputing to me what is not present in me, nor in the description I offered.

Mark Twain said that people such as Cervantes and Bunyan had the best of worlds....Solitary Confinement. I agree with Twain. “Only Bunyan, Sir Walter Raleigh, the author of Don Quixote, & a few other people have had the best of opportunities for working, in this world. Solitary imprisonment, by compulsion, is the one perfect condition for perfect performance ... Then his work becomes his pleasure, his recreation, his absorption, his uplifting & all-satisfying enthusiasm. He is miserable only when the work-day closes. And yet a man so circumstanced need never be actually miserable; for he can weave his fancies & continue his work in his head until sleep overtakes him. He lives in a fairer world than any that is outside, he moves in a goodlier company than any that others know, & over them he is king & they obey him.” Mark Twain

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Unread 03-18-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
I have saturn in my twelfth house in gemini. Its also the tip of a yod.Does any else have a similar experience with the 12th house?
Amen! I have a conjunction Saturn and Neptune in the 12th
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Unread 03-18-2012, 10:20 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

All the planets except Saturn are considered debilitated in the 12th house. Saturn joys in the 12th. If it has essential dignity, sect, with descending node or important fixed star, it may be very helpful to the native and destroy his enemies. However, if Saturn or Mars rules the 12th and be especially malefic and there are violent fixed stars active in the horoscope, people may consider the native an enemy.

The 12th house rules cattle and horses and other large animals like camels and elephants. If the native desires to enter the cattle business this is the house to consult. The house should have a strong ruler. If the house is weak the native could lose his money betting on race horses or be killed when thrown by a horse or gored by a bull.

Observe this house to see if the native will join secret societies, become a religious fanatic, be put in prison, live life deep in debt or be a paralytic etc. This can be a very restrictive place if the ruler is debilitated. It can be the house of secret enemies, but if the descending node is here, they will not harm the native. It is the house of unemployment. Some natives with prominent 12th start out promising and go backwards in life.

This is a very depressing place to write about. However, some with a strong 12th rise to great heights. Some politicians have a strong 12th including President Obama.
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Unread 03-18-2012, 10:51 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

[sigh] I've posed the same question here several times in hopes of gaining some insight--to no avail. You guys are set in believing what you want about the twelfth house. Never mind that the traditional ideas about it are contradictory and make no sense. Never mind that two people with prominent twelfth house placements are telling you otherwise. All that matters is that it was written by other people ages ago. That makes it the absolute, unadulterated truth.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 12:23 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

My understanding of the Twelfth House is founded upon what the old guys said about it (which is true of astrology as a whole), but refined through 40 years of experience. Perhaps, Reverie, you will enlighten us as to the true significance of the Twelfth House instead of just taking pot shots at the old time astrologers.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 12:31 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Greybeard,

Have you been reading the thread? How about re-reading the first couple of posts.

I should be sick and imprisoned according to you. I am neither, nor do I regularly visit prisons, hospitals, or monasteries. I've lived through both Mars and Saturn transiting my 12th with my Sun and Venus. I am still here and have very few enemies.
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Last edited by RaptInReverie; 03-19-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 12:33 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I can understand that "Saturn is in his joy in the 12th House." But some of the meanings and manifestations of Saturn posited there are a bit less than joyful.

On the other hand, Jupiter in the Twelfth can bring joy, as when "help comes from unexpected places." Bobby Fischer, the incarcerated and subject-to-extradition chessmaster, was rescued by Iceland.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 12:34 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

No, Reverie, I only saw your last post. Sorry.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 12:47 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Well, Reverie, now I have read to the top of the page, and see that you thrice asked the same question, and once gave the Twelfth House a "spiritual" meaning while denying its more material manifestations.

I don't disagree with your spiritual assertions. I do disagree that the Twelfth is not the house of sorrow and all those other rather inconvenient unpleasantries.

You say that the unpleasant things the Twelfth may bring are only projections of our fears.....First, the Twelfth is the house of Fear and Second, the entire destiny of a man is nothing more than the projection of the inner self upon the outer world. The whole horoscope is a portrait of the individual psyche, the Cosmic Mind made Flesh in an individual.

I might also point out that we cannot divorce the spiritual and the material. They are one. Our only vehicle for spiritual manifestation is the physical. Without this body we have no means of expression. It is through the travails of the human form that our spiritual self awakens and transcends.

What does a horoscope, as a whole, depict?

It portrays a Moment. Your horoscope is not your horoscope, but is rather the charting of a Moment. You were born in that moment, and are of the nature of that Moment. And in fact, you ARE that Moment, made manifest. You are the Spirit made flesh. The horoscope is not specifically about you; it could be that an earthworm or a thought came into being at the exact same time and place, and those too --according to their natures -- are also that Moment and share in its nature.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-19-2012 at 12:52 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 01:10 AM
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RaptInReverie RaptInReverie is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Greybeard,

I understand and respect everything you're saying. And, hey, you've got much more experience in Astrology than I do. But, no one is answering "why" they believe this is what the twelfth house represents. Everyone keeps stating what they think it is, but will not explain why.

If you consider what percentage of the population has significant twelfth house placements, it's absurd to attribute this house to sorrow and other unpleasantness. Sure, sorrow is part of human existence, but we do not experience sorrow any more or less than anyone else does. I have met people with "good" natal placements who have experienced much more sorrow and self-undoing.
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noun
1. an act or state of absent-minded daydreaming
2. a piece of instrumental music suggestive of a daydream
3. archaic. a fanciful or visionary notion; daydream


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