Human existence: the gender of God

waybread

Well-known member
What do you mean my mindscape? I thought you were a Jewish convert and knew the basics of avodah zarah. I am not in any denomination currently, but I am a Unitarian.

If you are not currently a member of a Christian denomination with a doctrine you would be required to follow, let alone if you were raised as a Unitarian, I fail to see how and why you identify yourself as such an authority on Christianity.

You are expressing personal opinions, which is cool. But not necessarily

You must be aware that in North American Judaism there are basically 3 major denominations: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. Some congregations serve members whose beliefs are more at the overlap between two groups (Conservative-Orthodox, or Conservative-Reform.) Then Orthodox Judaism has more divisions within its ranks. My practice (and that of my Jewish ex-husband) was more at the Conservative-Reform part of the spectrum.

Serious study of the Talmud is usually not undertaken by Conservative-Reform Jews (unless they study for the rabbinate or have a particular interest.) It would be more a part of an Orthodox religious education.

To Orthodox Jews, the Talmud has scriptural status. Reform Jews would view it as part of their heritage, but not as binding.

Much of what is in the Avodah Zarah section of the Talmud is not really a concern today, because we don't live in a world where some of the ancient pagan practices it mentions still exist.

Some of it does-- kosher wine has a special place, to distinguish it from wine that might be used in a non-Jewish religious practice. An Orthodox cook might have occasion to learn how to render kitchen utensils kosher.

Technically Judaism would hold Christianity to be a form of idolatry, in worship given to Jesus, and in prayer to religious icons or statues as is practiced in some denominations.

But 99% of Jews today live in the modern real world, where they anticipate cordial relationships with their Christian neighbours.
 
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
See Galatians 3:28.

I quoted Galatians 3:28 in its actual biblical meaning on the previous page. It is one of the most abused verses of the Bible, because although all are one in the image of God (that is in Christ) and have equal standing in the kingdom of God by faith, they continue to have different roles in the present age - 1 Corinthians 7:18, Colossians 3:18-25
 

petosiris

Banned
If you are not currently a member of a Christian denomination with a doctrine you would be required to follow, let alone if you were raised as a Unitarian, I fail to see how and why you identify yourself as such an authority on Christianity.

You are expressing personal opinions, which is cool. But not necessarily

You must be aware that in North American Judaism there are basically 3 major denominations: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. Some congregations serve members whose beliefs are more at the overlap between two groups (Conservative-Orthodox, or Conservative-Reform.) Then Orthodox Judaism has more divisions within its ranks. My practice (and that of my Jewish ex-husband) was more at the Conservative-Reform part of the spectrum.

Serious study of the Talmud is usually not undertaken by Conservative-Reform Jews (unless they study for the rabbinate or have a particular interest.) It would be more a part of an Orthodox religious education.

To Orthodox Jews, the Talmud has scriptural status. Reform Jews would view it as part of their heritage, but not as binding.

Much of what is in the Avodah Zarah section of the Talmud is not really a concern today, because we don't live in a world where some of the ancient pagan practices it mentions still exist.

Some of it does-- kosher wine has a special place, to distinguish it from wine that might be used in a non-Jewish religious practice. An Orthodox cook might have occasion to learn how to render kitchen utensils kosher.

Technically Judaism would hold Christianity to be a form of idolatry, in worship given to Jesus, and in prayer to religious icons or statues as is practiced in some denominations.

But 99% of Jews today live in the modern real world, where they anticipate cordial relationships with their Christian neighbours.

I don't pray to Jesus or to religious icons, although I was raised to do so. I turned from idols to serve the living God, the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ. That being said, I believe in and pray in the name of Jesus Christ, which is considered heretical according to your teachers.

Jews also have the highest % of atheists in the USA, that is 50% compared to 10-15% of other religious groups - https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-09-26/jew-atheist-god/50553958/1

Unitarianism isn't my personal opinion or something I came up with. There are still lots of Biblical Unitarian folks, and historically so-called ''Socinians'', ''Photinians'', ''Paulinists'', ''Theodotians'' ''Ebionites'', ''Nazarenes'' held my belief in the human Jesus. Also, personally I don't object to JW and so-called ''Arian'' folks who are also Unitarians, but with belief in pre-existent Jesus. JWs also don't pray to Jesus, but only in his name. I am speaking on behalf of all of them. The Trinity is a fourth century development.

Jews and Unitarians historically had very good relationship compared to say Reformed or Catholics and Jews (and Unitarians).
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, we get glimpses in the Bible of a God who is far more powerful and omniscient than human beings can possibly imagine. See Isaiah 55:8-9 on the impossibility of humans truly understanding God's ways and thoughts. See also God's rebuke in Job 38-40.

So coming across as highly dogmatic on God's intentions regarding gender is a piece of hubris.

A lot depends upon how one experiences the Bible. I don't take it literally. I do think it contains a lot of wisdom and a code of ethics. I think it was written by deeply devout men who wrote in the idioms of their day. In the Iron Age Near East, a king and a father were symbols of power and authority.

Then maybe we have to ask who or what we mean by the concept "God."

In my thinking, a God who creates the entire universe cannot possibly be limited by our notions of the human body and two sexes.

A quote from St. Augustine: "I you understood Him, it would not be God."
 

waybread

Well-known member
I once had a friend who was studying rabbinical ordnation. He remarked that he thought he was an atheist!

Judaism does have a n educational history of questioning and probing as a means to get closer to the truth.

Judaism focuses extensively on what people do, rather than what people believe. The principal belief is that God alone is to be worshipped.
 

petosiris

Banned
I believe in the plain meaning of scriptures, ''wisdom'' in Proverbs 8 or the fourth beast of Daniel is clearly not literal, but allegorical. I don't claim I understand God as he understands me, but I do think I understand from Deut. 6:4 that he is one and that he has a name, and that he is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5) and that he doesn't want us to even mention other gods (Ex. 23:13).
 

waybread

Well-known member
This is exactly what I am saying with ''We can speculate why this is so, knowing that Adam and Eve were both created in the image of God, but I don't think we should question it.'' I gave my own opinion, which I don't believe it is necessary to believe in, but I said that we should refer to the Father as ''he'', simply because he does it.

Do you have a problem with simply calling God our Parent? English is not such a gendered language.

What you're missing Petosiris, is how alienated many women feel about all this triumphalism of masculinity. Catholicism at least gave women role models, not just with Mary (as feminine, not feminist) and female saints; but more importantly as actual women who could take on religious vocations and even become managers of convents, abbeys, &c. Catholicism still discriminates against women, but actually through its religious orders for women, it gave many an opportunity for careers in nursing, teaching, and handicrafts, as well as a religious calling.

Maybe it would be helpful to really think through what "being a man" or "being a woman" actually means to you.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I quoted Galatians 3:28 in its actual biblical meaning on the previous page. It is one of the most abused verses of the Bible, because although all are one in the image of God (that is in Christ) and have equal standing in the kingdom of God by faith, they continue to have different roles in the present age - 1 Corinthians 7:18, Colossians 3:18-25

Sorry, but those different roles for real people were written in the context of Roman society in ancient times.
 

petosiris

Banned
Do you have a problem with simply calling God our Parent? English is not such a gendered language.

Yes, I would. Jesus taught the people to pray to our Father in heaven. Do you have problem simply eating pork or not keeping the Sabbath? Don't you perceive there are great spiritual forces at battle here?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, I think your knowledge of Jewish life could use some expansion.

I noted the 3 major denominations of North American Judaism. You might look up Reform Judaism if you are unfamiliar with it. It views the dietary laws as optional. Many Reform Jews attend synagogue, but they might do so on Friday night rather than Saturday morning.

I have been inactive in Judaism for many years now.

What "great spiritual forces at battle" do you mean?

Here. The NT talks a lot about love. This song is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaxVQPohlU
 

petosiris

Banned
Petosiris, I think your knowledge of Jewish life could use some expansion.

I noted the 3 major denominations of North American Judaism. You might look up Reform Judaism if you are unfamiliar with it. It views the dietary laws as optional. Many Reform Jews attend synagogue, but they might do so on Friday night rather than Saturday morning.

I have been inactive in Judaism for many years now.

What "great spiritual forces at battle" do you mean?

Here. The NT talks a lot about love. This song is for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUaxVQPohlU

I know this much. I've also heard and read of Karaite Jews, have you?
 

petosiris

Banned
I think I've shown that wisdom is a personification (not another creator - Is. 42:5), that singular masculine pronouns and names in the sacred scriptures are irrevocable, that Paul believed there were differences in godly living for Jews, Gentiles, slaves, freemen, men and women, that I established my ''doctrinal credentials'', and that I am not an idol worshipper even according to your teachers (yes, I do not benefit from idolatry either). I think that the last two methods were an interesting way of making your point.

It is a rebellion against God who doesn't think his words are optional - ''Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.'' - hear the prophet of Deut. 18:18-19 and listen to him!
 
Last edited:

Opal

Premium Member
Most feminists of my generation were strongly supportive of men’s right to be something other than the role of man defined to be acceptable by patriarchy.

I agree, but I seem to remember a parting of ways. I can't remember why, it just sparked a memory of a group of which I have not heard about in so many years. Did they part?
 

Opal

Premium Member
There is no definitive scholarship on who or what Asherah was. Possibly the term had more than one meaning, including being something like an idol or tree that could be cut down. Exodus 34:13, Judges 6:25.

Interesting Waybread. Why would we have been directed to cut down the whole grove? Thanks, I will read them further, in context. (meaning the whole chapter)
 
Top