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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 06-01-2011, 11:09 PM
Roy Roy is offline
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A natives wealth

It's my understanding that traditional astrology centers on physical matters and modern with non ie. the mind. Having said that, I would like an understanding in traditionalist ways.

How do we delineate wealth in a horoscope?
Is it possible to find where the wealth will be made?
How about the timing or loss?

Where could I find this information?


Last edited by Roy; 07-03-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 06-02-2011, 12:22 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

I know that there are search engines filled with info. but discerning the useful and trustworth from the rest is a rough task. I wonder if there is any astrologer on here interested in doing a mini-tutorial? I love tutorials on here with people who respond (info. pages don't do that) and I do learn a lot this way.

Good thread.

By Jove

Last edited by byjove; 05-14-2013 at 02:02 PM. Reason: keeping expression simple
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Unread 06-03-2011, 12:34 PM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
It's my understanding that traditional astrology centers on physical matters and modern with non ie. the mind. Having said that, I would like an understanding in traditionalist ways.

How do we delineate wealth in a horoscope?
Is it possible to find where the wealth will be made?
How about the timing or loss?

Where could I find this information?
we are all visual people and need to see charts please.
Re: Need some education: Which charts to use when?
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17514

Beginning to Study Astrology
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154469&postcount=10
http://www.soulhealing.com/tutorialwest.htm
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/learn-astrology/astrology-glyphs.php

How to attach a chart as thumbnail
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

what members like to see in a thread – help forum
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25930

Money & you
http://www.astrotheme.com/files/money_and_you.php
http://www.cafeastrology.com/astrologytopics/astrology_of_money_wealth.html
career significators
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/significators.html
http://www.janetboyer.com/Midheaven_in_Sagittarius.html

Professional & Destiny
http://www.astrotheme.com/files/astrology_professional_destiny.php
sticky in vocational astrology forum
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32775
Astro’s vocation section
http://www.babybirthchart.com/zodiac-signs/midheaven/
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_vocation2_n.htm?lang=z

My thoughts and links on vocation
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264759&postcount=7
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12398&postcount=1

Waybread’s thoughts on Vocation
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=264335&postcount=2
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  #4  
Unread 06-05-2011, 11:40 PM
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Re: A natives wealth

Beneficial planets are Venus, Neptune and Jupiter. Their position in the chart is indicator of wealth. And this may not mean that you are wealthy with money, but you may be rich with compassion or having a lot of friends....

Venus shows what and how you attract...
Jupiter shows what you have a lot, even too much....
Neptune shows your attraction on the all levels... also spirituality attraction...
Even inharmonious aspects with them are better than nothing.

Saturn and Mars are next important ones, although don`t specially show that you will get rich. But Saturn makes things real in the chart, and Mars gives drive and energy, but also courage to fight for one`s dreams.

2nd house is the main indicator of wealth. Whether the person has lesson to learn with values or not. What the person has. Her or his resources.
8th house shows the money got from others, inheritance, lottery winnings, money from the marriage...
12th house shows the hidden richness...unconscious magnetism to things...

also may be important 10th, 6th and 4th house IF they have some connection with the richenss planets or rulers of the richness planets..
10th - even if you dont have richness in your chart, lucky career may compensate it..
6th - the same with your skills..
4th - inherited wealth from the family..

Also Taurus, Capricorn, Pisces, Cancer and Virgo have connection with material world-- and with wealth.

What you want the most have to have connection with your AC, Sun and Moon. If they are not into the materiality and earning money - then getting rich is not your theme. At least so radical approach has Beverly A.Flynn.
She has wrote a great book about money and richness.
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Unread 06-06-2011, 02:21 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
It's my understanding that traditional astrology centers on physical matters and modern with non ie. the mind. Having said that, I would like an understanding in traditionalist ways.

How do we delineate wealth in a horoscope?
Is it possible to find where the wealth will be made?
How about the timing or loss?

Where could I find this information?
There are three main lines of thinking.

Ptolemy uses the Lot of Fortune, the Almuten of the Lot Fortune and any Planets that aspect the Almuten of the Lot of Fortune. The Almuten of anything is simply that Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity at a particular point on the chart.

33°24' is the same as 3° Taurus 24'. Venus is the Sign Ruler and Term Ruler, while Moon is the Exaltation Ruler. In a Day Chart, Venus would be the Sect Triplicity Ruler, so Venus has the greatest Dignity in that point. However, in a Night Chart, Moon is the Sect Ruler of Earth Signs and so Venus and Moon would each have two dignities.

In that case, which one, Moon or Venus aspects that point? The one that does is the Almuten. If neither aspect it, or they are equally close in aspect, then take the one that is in the correct facing, and if neither are, then take the one that is closer in degrees.

Sometimes you have multiple points, like the Almuten of Marriage. That is the Planet that rules the Lot of Marriage, Venus, and the Sun for women or Moon for men. The Planet that has the greatest Dignity in those three points is the Planet that actually rules marriage in that chart, and so when you did your Profections and Solar Returns, you would be looking at the Almuten of Marriage to give you hints that marriage is possible, then you would look at Primary Directions (using the Almuten) to determine the exact date (since transits are guaranteed to fail).

Ptolemy says the quadrant the Almuten is located will tell you roughly when in life someone will gain/lose wealth, and directed the any Planet that afflicts the Almuten of Wealth will tell you when they'll lose it.

Others of the Hellenistic group, the Romans, Persians and some of the Medieval ones use the Almuten of the 2nd House cusp, Ruler 2nd House, Jupiter (the general significator of wealth), and the Lot of Wealth (aka Lot of Substance or Lot of Possessions) which is ASC + 2nd House Cusp - 2nd House Ruler.

From that point they follow Ptolemy. Really important are Planets that afflict the Almuten of Wealth and from where. For example, a square, is it ten Houses away (a Dexter square) or four Houses away (a Sinister square). Dexter aspects (Dexter sextiles, trines and squares are more powerful than Sinister sextiles, trines and squares), and also is the Planet that squares (or opposes) the Almuten Angular or elevated above the Almuten.

The Almuten will give you hints at how you acquire whatever wealth you might get, through your own labor, through inheritance, through luck, through your own wit and cunning and skill, through arts and crafts and other Venusian things and so on, through leadership and command ability (like running your own business or running someone else's business) or other Martian things and so on.

That method is much better than Ptolemy's (who had a peculiar bias against Greek Lots) and when you start looking at a lot of charts, you'll see that the Lot of Fortune has little to do with wealth, rather it is about the Native's general fortune in life and the good and bad that happens to them.

Another method that is not as complex but worth the effort is that of the later Medievals, like Bonatti and Lily.

Here, you're looking at the the area 5° before the 2nd House Cusp up to 5° before the 3rd House Cusp. You consider any Planets in the region, plus the 2nd House Ruler and the Planet that rules any intercepted Sign in the region. So if the 2nd House Cusp is 15° Taurus and the 3rd House Cusp is 22° Gemini, you'd be looking at the region between 10° Taurus in the 1st House up to 17° Gemini and you'd look at both Venus and Mercury who rule Taurus and Gemini, plus any Planets in that region.

They also want you to look at Jupiter and the Lot of Fortune and any Planets that aspect Jupiter or the Lot of Fortune.

They pay more attention to the condition of the Planets, so, for example Jupiter as the general significator of wealth should be Angular, Direct, in Dignity, preferably in Sagittarius, Pisces, or Cancer and if not then in his own Triplicity or Term, Oriental, Diurnal and not in square or opposition to Mercury, Sun, Mars or Saturn and not Combust (and that's true for any Planet).

What you don't want to see is Jupiter in Capricorn, Gemini or Virgo, or Retrograde or Peregrine, Combust, Cadent, Occidental, Nocturnal in a Day Chart or other things like that, and especially not in square or opposition to a Malefic or Accidental Malefic (like Sun or Mercury).
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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 06-06-2011, 03:09 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Thank you everyone for very helpful guides. I'll definitely be testing and using these.

I just spotted Bob referred to dexter and sinister aspects. It's been a while since I read about these. These, I believe are far more important, the older the astrology. But their lack of reference today is considered a loss, not a lack of usefulness.

When a planet casts an aspect against the order of the signs, e.g. the Sun in Aries in trine with Pluto in Sagg. the Sun is casting, and it is backward to (Aries to) Sagg. this is called a dexter (trine) and is definitely considered stronger than the other type:

Sun in Aries trine Pluto in Leo (casting with the order of the signs) - sinister - less powerful, or complicated (and as with most of history's association with the left - not to be desired).

So, to analyse wealth, considering aspects to almutens etc. what if the almuten of wealth is Jupiter, squaring Neptune by 1) dexter square 2) sinister square . Dexter is stronger so - more of a danger to money, or dexter is more desired - so less of a threat? And with sinister?

Also an almuten peregrine - do face/term/etc. count as 'natural' dignity? or is that the bargain basement?

Last edited by byjove; 06-06-2011 at 03:24 AM.
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Unread 06-06-2011, 03:12 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post

They also want you to look at Jupiter and the Lot of Fortune and any Planets that aspect Jupiter or the Lot of Fortune.

They pay more attention to the condition of the Planets, so, for example Jupiter as the general significator of wealth should be Angular, Direct, in Dignity, preferably in Sagittarius, Pisces, or Cancer and if not then in his own Triplicity or Term, Oriental, Diurnal and not in square or opposition to Mercury, Sun, Mars or Saturn and not Combust (and that's true for any Planet).

What you don't want to see is Jupiter in Capricorn, Gemini or Virgo, or Retrograde or Peregrine, Combust, Cadent, Occidental, Nocturnal in a Day Chart or other things like that, and especially not in square or opposition to a Malefic or Accidental Malefic (like Sun or Mercury).
I have a few novice questions if you'd be so kind as to oblige?

When a planet is said to be Occidental, does that mean it's below the horizon (Houses 1-6) or does it just refer to it moving away from the Sun or in the opposite half of the chart where the Sun is located? Is my understanding of this completely incorrect?

Does a close opposition from Uranus to the Part/Lot of Fortune count or since Uranus is not considered a factor in Traditional astrology is that aspect deemed negligible?

What about Jupiter at a pitted degree? Is that a strong indicator against potential wealth or is it just one factor that could be mitigated by something more promising?

I apologize if my questions or trite or obvious. I'm trying to get a handle on Traditional astrology and I'm finding it a bit dense.
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Unread 06-06-2011, 05:28 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
So, to analyse wealth, considering aspects to almutens etc. what if the almuten of wealth is Jupiter, squaring Neptune by 1) dexter square 2) sinister square . Dexter is stronger so - more of a danger to money, or dexter is more desired - so less of a threat? And with sinister?
Sextiles are the weakest, and a Sinister sextile from a Cadent House is almost a non-event (in fact from the 12th House it wouldn't even be an aspect).

I don't use Neptune, but to the extent that I would, I consider the Outers to be the Upper Octaves of Mercury, Venus and Mars. I would first look at the condition of Venus. A strong Venus, Direct, Fast in Motion, in an Angular/Succedent House, in her own Dignity would make Neptune strong. I'd want to see if Jupiter received Neptune by Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Decan, because any Reception is good, even if it's only simple Reception, and the more Reception the better.

Since Jupiter is the faster Planet, he's the one squaring Neptune and that square will be powerful if Jupiter is Angular or Succedent, and if Jupiter is Dexter, he has the upper hand and would decimate Neptune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Also an almuten peregrine - do face/term/etc. count as 'natural' dignity? or is that the bargain basement?
An Almuten can be Peregrine, or Retrograde or Combust (or all three and worse) and you would look at that when judging chart.

You look at it sort of on a "Scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest..." and if the Peregrine Almuten is in the 10th or 5th or 9th or 11th or 1st or 7th that's better than being in the 6th, 8th or 12th.

Also, you have to view everything in the context of region, ethnicity, parentage and socio-economic status. A middling Almuten that isn't very strong but isn't absolutely horrid would indicate "average" and if you were Middle Class, you'd be smack dab in the Middle Middle Class, or if you were Lower Class in the middle of the Lower Class and so on.

If there are indicators of a change in class, you'd go from Lower Class to the middle of the Middle Class, or maybe you go from Upper Class to middle of the Middle Class if the indicators show a loss.

And part of that too, is that you might end up better off, the same or worse off than your parents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist View Post
When a planet is said to be Occidental, does that mean it's below the horizon (Houses 1-6) or does it just refer to it moving away from the Sun or in the opposite half of the chart where the Sun is located? Is my understanding of this completely incorrect?
It's confusing. I'd prefer another term myself, but suffice to say that a Planet is Occidental when in the 1st, 2nd, 3r, 7th, 8th or 9th Houses, but it is also Occidental when it rises after the Sun.

You always want Venus and Mars rising after the Sun, ie Occidental, because they are Nocturnal or Feminine Planets. You always want Jupiter and Saturn to be Oriental, rising before the Sun because they are Masculine and Diurnal.

Mercury is a different animal. If the Sun is in Gemini, then you want Mercury Oriental rising before the Sun and in Gemini (a few degrees ahead of the Sun and not Combust), but if Mercury is Occidental, you'd want him behind the Sun in Cancer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist View Post
Does a close opposition from Uranus to the Part/Lot of Fortune count or since Uranus is not considered a factor in Traditional astrology is that aspect deemed negligible?
I ignore Uranus and never really found it useful in a Natal Chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist View Post
What about Jupiter at a pitted degree?
Those are also called Welled or Deep Degrees, and they're exactly what they sound like, you dug your grave, or you made your bed and have to lie in it, or you dug yourself into a hole and can't get out, or you've trapped yourself in a corner like a cockroach.

In a Natal Chart, Planets in Pitted Degrees struggle a lot. Sometimes struggle is good, it's Nature's way of strengthening.

At other times, struggle gets to be a freaking headache.

If a Planet in a Pitted Degree is strong, it will survive the struggle, if not, then it's going to become tedious, if not downright frustrating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist View Post
Is that a strong indicator against potential wealth or is it just one factor that could be mitigated by something more promising?
Jupiter is just one of the significators of wealth. If Jupiter is the Almuten, then to help it, you'd want to see Venus in any aspect with Jupiter, or Mercury or the Sun in sextile or trine with Jupiter. Even Mars in Pisces, Aries, Sagittarius or Leo in sextile or trine with Jupiter would help (especially in a Night Chart because Jupiter rules the Fire Signs at Night).

The Moon conjunct, sextile or trine Jupiter, that would depend a lot on Sign, House and House Type. The Moon represents constant change and fluctuation, just like the song says:

O Fortuna! Velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis;
Vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,

egestatem, potestatem dissolvit ut glaciem.

Fortune, like the Moon
always changing state,
forever increasing and decreasing.


Hateful life:
Now oppressing then soothing
as it fancies,

Poverty and Power, [the Moon] melts them like ice.

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  #9  
Unread 06-06-2011, 09:35 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Sextiles are the weakest, and a Sinister sextile from a Cadent House is almost a non-event (in fact from the 12th House it wouldn't even be an aspect).

I don't use Neptune, but to the extent that I would, I consider the Outers to be the Upper Octaves of Mercury, Venus and Mars. I would first look at the condition of Venus. A strong Venus, Direct, Fast in Motion, in an Angular/Succedent House, in her own Dignity would make Neptune strong. I'd want to see if Jupiter received Neptune by Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Decan, because any Reception is good, even if it's only simple Reception, and the more Reception the better.

Since Jupiter is the faster Planet, he's the one squaring Neptune and that square will be powerful if Jupiter is Angular or Succedent, and if Jupiter is Dexter, he has the upper hand and would decimate Neptune.

An Almuten can be Peregrine, or Retrograde or Combust (or all three and worse) and you would look at that when judging chart.

You look at it sort of on a "Scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest..." and if the Peregrine Almuten is in the 10th or 5th or 9th or 11th or 1st or 7th that's better than being in the 6th, 8th or 12th.

Also, you have to view everything in the context of region, ethnicity, parentage and socio-economic status. A middling Almuten that isn't very strong but isn't absolutely horrid would indicate "average" and if you were Middle Class, you'd be smack dab in the Middle Middle Class, or if you were Lower Class in the middle of the Lower Class and so on.

If there are indicators of a change in class, you'd go from Lower Class to the middle of the Middle Class, or maybe you go from Upper Class to middle of the Middle Class if the indicators show a loss.

And part of that too, is that you might end up better off, the same or worse off than your parents.
It's confusing. I'd prefer another term myself, but suffice to say that a Planet is Occidental when in the 1st, 2nd, 3r, 7th, 8th or 9th Houses, but it is also Occidental when it rises after the Sun.

You always want Venus and Mars rising after the Sun, ie Occidental, because they are Nocturnal or Feminine Planets. You always want Jupiter and Saturn to be Oriental, rising before the Sun because they are Masculine and Diurnal.

Mercury is a different animal. If the Sun is in Gemini, then you want Mercury Oriental rising before the Sun and in Gemini (a few degrees ahead of the Sun and not Combust), but if Mercury is Occidental, you'd want him behind the Sun in Cancer.

Those are also called Welled or Deep Degrees, and they're exactly what they sound like, you dug your grave, or you made your bed and have to lie in it, or you dug yourself into a hole and can't get out, or you've trapped yourself in a corner like a cockroach.

In a Natal Chart, Planets in Pitted Degrees struggle a lot. Sometimes struggle is good, it's Nature's way of strengthening.

At other times, struggle gets to be a freaking headache.

If a Planet in a Pitted Degree is strong, it will survive the struggle, if not, then it's going to become tedious, if not downright frustrating.

Jupiter is just one of the significators of wealth. If Jupiter is the Almuten, then to help it, you'd want to see Venus in any aspect with Jupiter, or Mercury or the Sun in sextile or trine with Jupiter. Even Mars in Pisces, Aries, Sagittarius or Leo in sextile or trine with Jupiter would help (especially in a Night Chart because Jupiter rules the Fire Signs at Night).

The Moon conjunct, sextile or trine Jupiter, that would depend a lot on Sign, House and House Type. The Moon represents constant change and fluctuation, just like the song says:

O Fortuna! Velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis;
Vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,

egestatem, potestatem dissolvit ut glaciem.

Fortune, like the Moon
always changing state,
forever increasing and decreasing.


Hateful life:
Now oppressing then soothing
as it fancies,

Poverty and Power, [the Moon] melts them like ice.
Bob,

Thank you so much for the wealth of information you provide! You really make it look easy and I truly appreciate you taking the time to walk us all through it and fleshing it out so that it's not quite so overwhelming.

I'm currently trying to figure out my Almuten planet following Lilly's criteria. I think I have it narrowed down to either the Moon or Jupiter or possibly Mercury in my own (Dinural) chart.

My natal Moon is in the 10th house (Angular and Oriental) in Taurus (exalted) and in mutual reception to Venus in Cancer in the 12th (which is 11* from the Sun, so technically under the Sun's beams). The Moon is waning, which is considered an accidental debility. My Sun is in Cancer, so the Moon disposits Sun (or is it considered vice versa?). Mixed messages it would seem?

My natal Mercury and Jupiter are conjunct in Leo at 14* (really 15 degrees, thus DEEP pitted) and Jupiter is in its own triplicity and term. They're in my 1st house (accidentally dignified?), so they're Occidental and behind my Sun in the 12th in Cancer, so I believe that means Mercury is in its Face (I'm still confused what that means exactly?), but it's also peregrine at that degree in Leo.

If my Almuten is one of those three I mentioned above, none seem to be really promising of wealth. My POF is 17 Taurus, also in the 10th and square to Jupiter. There is asemi-sextile aspect between Venus and Jupiter in my chart, but the Moon and POF square Jupiter/Mercury. Venus is weak.

Beyond that, I'm stumped...but am working on piecing it together.

That poem you posted is very apropos!
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Last edited by ethertwist; 06-06-2011 at 09:53 AM.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 01:36 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Ptolemy looks solely at the Lot of Fortune. He wants to know what Planet(s) have "dominion" there. In other words, which Planets have the greatest amount of Dignity in that degree point, because those Planets are going to play a role in wealth throughout the Native's life.

The Planet that has the most Dignity there is the Almuten. Ptolemy uses the Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler and any Planet that is in aspect with the Lot of Fortune.

Your Lot is at 6° Aquarius:

Sign: Saturn
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Mercury (the Night Ruler of Air)
Term: Mercury
Aspect: Saturn (joined by body -- ie conjunct)

Here, as it sometimes happens, there are two Planets with equal Dignity in the Lot. Because Saturn is the Lot Ruler and is corporally conjunct and is closer to the Lot than Mercury, Saturn would be the Almuten of Wealth according to Ptolemy.

Ptolemy would then look at the total number of Planets that have Dignity in the Lot of Fortune to determine the permanency of the Native's Wealth. More Planets means more stability.

He also looks at the condition of the Planets to determine stability. Here Saturn is Cadent, but in the 3rd House, which is rather harmless, in his own Sign, he's Diurnal, but Occidental, and in a trine with Moon and receives Moon by Exaltation. Saturn and Moon are Friends, so there's some affinity there.

Mercury is in Detriment in Sagittarius, in square with Jupiter but there's Mutual Reception, and in sextile with Moon and Mercury receives Moon since Mercury is the Night Air Triplicity Ruler. Mercury is also in a Degree of Increasing Fortune. Your Sun is in a Pitted Degree, but I would kind of ignore that since your Moon is the Sect Ruler.

Mercury is applying to Mars, and Mars is Diurnal and very Malefic, especially since Mercury and Mars are Enemies and neither receives the other.

What Ptolemy would do now is direct Saturn and Mercury by direct and converse direction and where they made sextiles, squares or trines to the Lot of Fortune that would indicate things that would happen regarding your wealth. Just looking at the Houses and current placements, I'd guess that when Saturn sextiles the Lot of Fortune, you'll probably gain, perhaps from the sale of property or your home at some point in the future.

That's how Ptolemy did it. He had a peculiar disdain for the Lots except for the Lot of Fortune.

The way everyone else did is to look at the Planet(s) with the greatest dignities in the 2nd House Cusp, Jupiter and the Lot of Wealth (which often appears in texts as Substance or Possessions -- not to be confused with another Lot related to Possessions).

In your case, because Jupiter rules the 2nd House Cusp, you're only looking at two points: Jupiter and the Lot of Wealth

This raises an interesting question, and that is do you count Jupiter twice? I don't know.

Quote:
2. Calculate the Almuten of Wealth

.......................A...............B.......... ....C.............D
Sign..............Mercury......Mercury.....Mercury ......Saturn
Exaltation.......Mercury......Mercury.....Mercury. ....Venus
Triplicity...........Moon.........Moon........Moon ........Mercury
Term..............Jupiter........Jupiter......Jupi ter.......Mercury
Facing|Aspect
Here, Mercury has the most Dignity in points C & D.

Quote:
I don't know what facing|aspect means. Could someone clarify this for me?
It's a Greek word and somehow the Persians confused it with the Chaldean Decans which some people call "Face" because I think the Greek word was facis.

Facing is a Planet's correct position in relation to the Sun/Moon.

When Jupiter is Occidental of the Sun, his proper relationship should always be that of a trine. Jupiter doesn't actually have to be in trine with the Sun, he just has to be in a Sign that is trine with the Sun's Sign

When Jupiter is Oriental, should he be in trine with the Moon by Sign.

You can probably see this better by taking a Natural wheel and just writing in the Planets in their Signs. When you're done doing that, you can see the proper facing for all the Planets.

When Venus is in her proper facing when she is Occidental of the Sun and sextile or Oriental of the Moon and sextile. Venus is a Nocturnal Planet and should rise ahead of the Moon, but she should rise after the Sun.

That's what Facing is and its a form of Dignity.

In your chart, Mercury is not in his proper facing. If he would be then he would either be in Virgo or Aquarius. For Venus to be in her proper facing, she would need to be in Leo or Pisces and so on for the rest of them.

Quote:
Mercury has 8 dignities so this would be the Almuten of Wealth.

Did I do this correctly?
That's close enough for government work, but yes, Mercury would be the Almuten.

And like Ptolemy, we would direct Mercury to see what happens.

Anyway Mercury is the Almuten of Wealth and your Lot of Wealth is in Aquarius conjunct Saturn and trine Moon, so you do have the ability to earn money. Mercury is in a sextile by Sign to the Lot so you will have some control over your financial affairs. You need to be careful because Mercury squares your Lot of Debt at 18° Virgo. If you loan large sums of money to people, don't expect to get it back, and if you borrow money, make sure it doesn't get out of hand, because your prone to take a beating on interest, especially since your Lot of Wealth is in an Azieme Degree.

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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."

Last edited by BobZemco; 06-18-2011 at 01:44 AM.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 04:04 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist View Post
If my Almuten is one of those three I mentioned above, none seem to be really promising of wealth. My POF is 17 Taurus, also in the 10th and square to Jupiter. There is asemi-sextile aspect between Venus and Jupiter in my chart, but the Moon and POF square Jupiter/Mercury. Venus is weak.
Venus is the Almuten and it sextiles the Lot of Wealth. The Lot is conjunct Saturn, but Saturn is Peregrine in your chart. Moon trines the Lot and Moon is the Night Ruler of Earth Signs, so that's good. There's no real impediments to the Lot. The only the real issue is the Lot Ruler Mercury is in Fall in Leo, Stationary and in a Pitted Degree, plus conjunct Jupiter in the same Pitted Degree, plus square Moon without Reception and sextile Mars without Reception (and Mars is Out-of-Sect). I think we can rule out Billionaire Playboy as one of your occupations.

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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 06-18-2011, 08:02 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Venus is the Almuten and it sextiles the Lot of Wealth. The Lot is conjunct Saturn, but Saturn is Peregrine in your chart. Moon trines the Lot and Moon is the Night Ruler of Earth Signs, so that's good. There's no real impediments to the Lot. The only the real issue is the Lot Ruler Mercury is in Fall in Leo, Stationary and in a Pitted Degree, plus conjunct Jupiter in the same Pitted Degree, plus square Moon without Reception and sextile Mars without Reception (and Mars is Out-of-Sect). I think we can rule out Billionaire Playboy as one of your occupations.

Bob,

Simply put, you're the best!

Thank you so much for taking the time to do that for me and for including my chart. You were nearly spot on with my birth details as well (location, birth time, date, etc.).

Since Billionaire Playboy is out of the question now, I guess I'll have to keep my day job!
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Unread 06-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Mauli.dubey Mauli.dubey is offline
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Re: A natives wealth

The 2nd house indicates wealth.
2nd house deals with money matters,
one's deposits, income tax,
customs, computers. It represents
one's family and face, speech, food habits and left eye.
For any ascendant, some planets
become Yogakaraka or Maraka, depending upon the
house they own. This is one of the most important factor in
prediction. A Yogakaraka planet shows good results in
its Dasha or Antar Dasha
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Unread 06-21-2011, 11:09 PM
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Re: A natives wealth

Hi my Lot of Debt I guess is 23 degrees Libra
My lot of Wealth I believe is 23 degrees Sagittarius in the first house.
I was wondering is we do this the same way as the lot of fortune, extending forward or backward from the Ascendant.
At any rate is Almuten we are using is it the planet with most dignitieson the lot of fortune, or is it the 2nd house cusp?
My Lot of Debt in the 11th house of wages is where my money goes HA!
My lot of wealth is more confusing, Saturn rules my second from the first house.
My understanding is that this means that gain is from personal effort.
Fortuna in the 7th house may mean I must get help from others perhaps. it is ruled by mercury in the 2nd. My interpretation is this:
Since 2nd is assets, then gain can be had by some talent I already possess, and Saturn in the first is myself also, also showing some talent.
Aspects to the lot of fortune each is a talent i read also.
Confused.....
At any rate, Fortuna is on Aldebaran, which Robson says means poverty.

and he wasn't kidding
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Unread 07-01-2011, 03:34 PM
positive positive is offline
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Re: A natives wealth

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wealth.html

A link with various articles how to define wealth in a natal chart.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 07:57 PM
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Re: A natives wealth

Sorry I am a little confused here, do we count the Sect Triplicity ruler of our chart, or of the sign that Fortuna falls in?

And what if the Lot of Wealth falls in Sagittarius in the 2nd House, do we count Jupiter soley as the Almuten for that lot?

My Fortune falls in Pisces at 24 Degrees, and I want to know if my calculations for the Almuten is correct; Pisces at 24 degrees

Ruler: Jupiter
Exaltation: Venus
Triplicity Ruler: Mars
Term Ruler: Mars

So is my Almuten Mars? Mars falls in the 1st House, is Occidental (Rises after the Sun), Domicile (In Scorpio), Free from Combustion, in its own Triplicity, direct in motion and conjunct my Mercury.

My Mars and Jupiter recieve no aspect towards eachother (or by face, term, etc.), and Jupiter is Cadent but conjuct my Fixed Star Spica, rises before the Sun (Oriental), and Conjunct my Asc, and falls in its own Face. Which I think Jupiter is the Almuten of my Lot of Wealth.

Please let me know if my calculations are correct or wrong.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 11:08 PM
MsK MsK is offline
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Re: A natives wealth

My Part/Lot of Fortune is at .5 Leo

I can not tell if my Almuten is the Sun or Jupiter.

Can anyone help??

At any rate, both are great by sign (exalted Sun, ruling sign for Jupiter) but in pitted degrees, nor do they thrill me by aspect.

I have never experienced poverty, nor extreme wealth, but have lived comfortably - mostly through others
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Unread 07-11-2011, 12:20 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by positive View Post
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wealth.html

A link with various articles how to define wealth in a natal chart.
this site is well known and used by Traditinal astrologers, I even like their aspect interpretations BUT for complete beginners this comes over as overly technical, complex and hard to understand. 90% here are Modern astrologers including myself.

If anyone wants to learn the differences between Modern and Traditional try here...basically Trads don't go past Saturn, so thereb ignoring Uranus,Neptune and Pluto and use hundreds of year old data which back then hundreds of years ago had meaning.

House systems Traditional v Modern
http://www.astrologyinstitute.com/introduction_book.htm
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8463
Traditional astrologers using ancient outdated information (unproven) that hardly seems relevant in a modern world
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7406&highlight=traditional
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/traditionallinks.html
http://episthemologie.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/5-differences-between-modern-and-traditional-astrology/
http://www.classicalastrologer.com/correspondence_course.htm
http://www.astrocollege.org/academic/department.cgi?DEPT=CERTIFIC&MOD=TRADITIONALASTRO& ACTION=SHOWMOD
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/traditionalastrology.html
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Unread 07-11-2011, 12:27 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsK View Post
My Part/Lot of Fortune is at .5 Leo

I can not tell if my Almuten is the Sun or Jupiter.

Can anyone help??

At any rate, both are great by sign (exalted Sun, ruling sign for Jupiter) but in pitted degrees, nor do they thrill me by aspect.

I have never experienced poverty, nor extreme wealth, but have lived comfortably - mostly through others
POF
http://www.astrotherapy.eu/ParsFortunae.htm
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5210.html


“However, in the case of both significations one must keep in mind that no one indication in the chart, not even the Part of Fortune, can be taken by itself as a total indicator of any area of life. For health one must also look at the Ascendant, its ruler, the Moon and its ruler. Also the sixth and eighth houses as indicators of illness and death respectively have strong indications for health. For material prosperity one should also look at the second house, the tenth house, and their rulers.”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htm

“The fortune indicated by this part is not necessarily materialistic or even tangible, though it can be. It depends on the sign and house location of the Part of Fortune. The benefit can be on the physical, intellectual, emotional, and/or spiritual plane of experience. In all cases it is through the cultivation and expression of this point that one will experience harmony and a sense of well-being.”
http://www.astroresources.com/fortune.htm

“The Part of Fortune represents worldly success, and is associated with the physical body and health as well. It can be indicative of the career or vocation. Worldly success and prosperity are associated with the Part of Fortune, and both its sign and house placement suggests innate abilities and talents--areas of life and qualities that are expressed naturally.”
http://www.cafeastrology.com/partoffortune.html
just found a site for calculating this and many more Parts or Lots --
http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arabicparts/index.php
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Unread 07-11-2011, 12:28 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

"Some formulas listed here have both an AM and PM version. The PM version is a reverse of the AM version and when indicated, persons born in the daytime (Sun in 7th - 12th houses) should use the AM formula while persons born in the evening (Sun in 1st - 6th houses) should use the PM formula. Sometimes it's best to try both formulas."
Check the placement of the Sun in the chart, it must be sensibly placed relative to the horizon for the given time of day. For a day birth, the Sun must be above the horizon.

From astro.com explanations on POF
We use different formulae for Pars Fortunae for a day birth than for a night birth. You can change this rule with an option in the extended chart selection.
The day formula is: ASC + Moon - Sun
The night formula: ASC + Sun - Moon
Astrologers differ in their views about which formula to use for Pars Fortunae.
If you're interested in in-depth information, please read the article "The Lot or Part of Fortune" by Robert Hand in our "Understanding Astrology" section.
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Unread 07-11-2011, 01:14 AM
MsK MsK is offline
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Re: A natives wealth

Thank you Sugar!!!
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Unread 07-11-2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by anny View Post
Beneficial planets are Venus, Neptune and Jupiter. Their position in the chart is indicator of wealth. And this may not mean that you are wealthy with money, but you may be rich with compassion or having a lot of friends....
[why would Neptune the great deciever, dissolver by including in your theory?]
Venus shows what and how you attract...
Jupiter shows what you have a lot, even too much....
Neptune shows your attraction on the all levels... also spirituality attraction...[iattraction would be venus, it also shows illusions, confusions and delusions]
Even inharmonious aspects with them are better than nothing.

Saturn and Mars are next important ones, although don`t specially show that you will get rich. But Saturn makes things real in the chart, and Mars gives drive and energy, but also courage to fight for one`s dreams.

2nd house is the main indicator of wealth. Whether the person has lesson to learn with values or not. What the person has. Her or his resources.
8th house shows the money got from others, inheritance, lottery winnings, money from the marriage...
12th house shows the hidden richness...unconscious magnetism to things...

also may be important 10th, 6th and 4th house IF they have some connection with the richenss planets or rulers of the richness planets..
10th - even if you dont have richness in your chart, lucky career may compensate it..
6th - the same with your skills..
4th - inherited wealth from the family..

Also Taurus, Capricorn, Pisces, Cancer and Virgo have connection with material world-- and with wealth. [pisces really?? and cancer, I don't think so]

What you want the most have to have connection with your AC, Sun and Moon. If they are not into the materiality and earning money - then getting rich is not your theme. At least so radical approach has Beverly A.Flynn.
She has wrote a great book about money and richness.
nice thread, perhaps you could mention this author in our Recommendations forum on the same topic
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Unread 07-11-2011, 10:45 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
I second a strong interest in this. If I hear another reference to the mind in 'modern' astrology I'll throw something out the window...

I know that there are search engines filled with info. but discerning the useful and trustworth from the rest is a rough task. I wonder if there is any astrologer on here interested in doing a mini-tutorial? I love tutorials on here with people who respond (info. pages don't do that) and I do learn a lot this way.

Good thread.

By Jove
I'm with you. Seems people 'still' want answers dropped in their laps without any effort/work themselves. People are soooo lazy. Traditional astrology to me has it's place in 'horary' and is far more complex than modern. I don't like those members that try to hedge their bets and say well I'm traditional but use uranus, neptune and pluto. These planets could not even be seen by the naked eye hundreds of years ago. Life and astrology has moved on so much and their importance should not be underestimated
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  #24  
Unread 07-11-2011, 10:46 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: A natives wealth

I certainly can see the Neptune connection-the great illusion (deception) of what material wealth represents, what its supposed to be (the meaning of life for so many people); yes, definitely I can see Neptune's connection with the common idea/concept of "wealth"!
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Unread 07-11-2011, 10:48 AM
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Re: A natives wealth

I don't know if I just read that wrong or what, but I see up above where someone said venus is delusion? No, that's the shadow side of Neptune, not venus.
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