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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #51  
Unread 10-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

petosiris posts:
''Whatever gifts Saturn gives, no other star can take away.'' - attributed to Serapio - http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/...efinitions.pdf

Why, that's beautiful petosiris, thank you.

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  #52  
Unread 10-12-2018, 07:29 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Rhys, et al.: Do you think the planetary joys by house have much of an impact? In quadrant house systems (which are mostly traditional) Saturn is in my 12th house, wherein it joys. In whole signs Saturn moves to the first.

I have a night birth. .
The planetary joys are what got me into traditional astrology. I was having coffee with Lynn Bell - a noted psychological astrologer - who is very interested in H12 and the joys. On and on she went; I realized I knew nothing about them. So rather than admit my ignorance to Lynn, I secretly took Demetra George's traditional Astrology 101 and 201 at the Astrology University, and that's how I got hooked!

That being said, Waybread, I am STILL getting my head around them, so thanks for sharing your experience as I don't have any with H12 Saturn.

I also have a night chart and I have Moon in H3, Mars in H6 and Jupiter in H11. I've found having the planets in their joys in these houses seems to make them happier there, even Mars, although it flared up dramatically at one point during a Saturn transit a few years back. I broke my hip. Total drag.

I've read that Mars and Saturn being in their joys can make them more malefic, I've also read the opposite, so I suppose it depends on other factors.

I have Saturn/Venus/Neptune in Libra in a pivot house, H4. I have a night chart, and indeed Saturn has given me quite a bit of trouble. But Venus is also in there, so when H4 is activated in one way or another, whether by zodiacal releasing, fidiara, or what have you, it tends to be a mixture of both good and bad. While I've had to deal with all the emotional issues that one would normally expect from a configuration like this, I wouldn't trade it for anything as it helps me with my day job (I compose music to make a living). However, I have developed arthritis in my hands (I'm 66), which seems logical for a Saturn night chart person.

Getting back to your chart, Waybread, I think that's very interesting about Saturn being in H12 in a quadrant system and in H1 in whole sign. I took a FASCINATING masterclass last weekend with Bernadette Brady on house systems. What was great about it is that she didn't dizzy us talking about things like trigonometry and right ascension, but explained what each of the major house systems is based on and how that affects what it is symbolizing.

So for example whole sign, equal and Prophyry are based on the ecliptic and tell one story, Campanus is based on the Prime Vertical, so it has more to do with Place/Space relationship, and finally Alcabitus and Placidus are based on the diurnal circle, which has its own symbolism, there is more a relationship to time with these systems.

As we all know, even in the time of Valens people were using quadrant systems, Placidus and Alcabitus came to us thanks to the invention of the astrolabe. Anyway, the point of having all these house systems is that we use them for different things.

So I bet that having H12 Saturn has worked out one way in your life, and on a different level, perhaps a more holistic whole-sign one, a H1 Saturn makes a lot of sense also. Btw, which quadrant system did you use for your H12 Saturn, if you don't mind sharing that with us?

Oh boy, I'm in trouble! It's dinner time here in Paris gotta go. See you all tomorrow.

My best - Rhys
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  #53  
Unread 10-12-2018, 08:01 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by Rhys View Post

omg! Not only that, but
Pluto
and the south node are in H1
cheer up
your post is on traditional board where dwarf planetoid pluto
is of no consequence
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Unread 10-13-2018, 03:22 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Rhys this is my anonymous "traditional" chart, meaning I've removed identifying degrees to protect my anonymity, as well as the outers to avoid being brutalized by traditional thugs.

Those who prefer whole signs can interpolate. This is Placidus.

I note that there is a big discrepancy between whole signs and quadrant signs for people with a late degree rising.

I drew the short end of the stick on essential dignities with no exaltations or domiciles, but with Saturn joying in the 12th house and Venus joying in the 5th. I think the joys are real. (My Mars migrates to the 6th in some house systems, as well.)

Supposedly Saturn was assigned to the 12th: since the Hellenists believed the 12th house was so miserable anyway, at least Saturn in the 12th couldn't gum up another perfectly good house. So far as the 5th house goes, I have two terrific adult children (and one grandchild) and enjoy recreation in the great outdoors.

With Saturn opposite Mars in the 12th and 6th houses, theoretically my life should have been horrible. But despite setbacks and regrets, my life actually turned out pretty well.

Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism. I think a Leo moon and 5th house emphasis contribute to an optimistic mentality regardless.
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Last edited by waybread; 10-13-2018 at 03:38 AM.
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Unread 10-13-2018, 03:46 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Dinner in Paris, Rhys? I'm jealous. Oh, well. We did have lunch in a local pub, noted for its cholesterol bombs.

Bernadette Brady is one original thinker. WW III sometimes breaks out on forums as to the best house system. I think the answers are, (1) which house system best explains someone's life or an event; and (2) which assumptions in a house system most appeal to you?

In many ways I find Porphyry most appealing as one house system that could be figured out from looking at the sky,but I don't think it explains my life very well.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #56  
Unread 10-13-2018, 01:02 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Saturn the Greater Malefic

other domicile AQUARIUS
Quote:
The watery symbolism continues in the figure known as the Great One,
the Babylonian name for our Aquarius.
As a seasonal symbol, the Great One with his overflowing vases
symbolises the increased rains and floods of winter and early spring.
Along with the constellation of the Field, which represents a plot of arable land
the Great One can be thought of as the Irrigator
as the rising of these constellations mark the season
when the ripening barley is irrigated before the springtime harvest.

....The Babylonian precursor of Aquarius is known as Gula, the Great One.
The constellation is generally portrayed as a standing male figure,
sometimes of gigantic proportions, who holds one or more vases
overflowing with streams of water.
With his feet firmly set upon the earth, the gigantic figure of Gula towers above the mountaintops.
The overflowing vases he holds aloft symbolise the fertile rains falling from heaven,
and the vases set about his feet represent the watery Abyss below the earth
from which freshwater wells up to feed rivers and lakes.
As a seasonal star the Great One represents the increase in river levels
and rainfall that occurs during the winter months.
In an agricultural context he can also be understood as the irrigator
whose waters irrigate the thriving barley fields in late winter.
The barley fields are, of course,represented among the stars
by the adjacent constellation of the Field.
To emphasise their watery nature the streams of water flowing from his vases
are often embellished with the tiny images of fish.
In fact, one of these fish appears on the Babylonian star-map
as the constellation known as the Fish
it too has been transmitted to the Greek heavens as the Southern Fish (Pisces Austrinus),
where it can be seen swimming along the outflow of Aquarius vase.

In Babylonian art, waterways such as rivers and streams
are conventionally depicted as a pair of wavy lines, which are thought to represent the parallel banks of a river.
Recognisably the same image occurs in the cuneiform writing system as the A-sign.
This sign by itself simply signifies water, but
it is also used in numerous compounds expressing watery concepts,
such as river, flood, sea and lake.
The basic form of this sign has evolved into
the familiar zigzag symbol used as the modern glyph for Aquarius.

Like many of the constellations that embody aquatic symbolism,
the Great One is closely associated with the god of wisdom and water,
known as Enki in Sumerian and Ea in Akkadian.
One astrology text simply states that the Great One is the Lord of springs, Ea.
In ancient art Enki is commonly depicted with overflowing vases in his hands
or set around his throne dais, and sometimes he is seen seated within a square enclosure
that is thought to represent the Abyss
Babylonian Starlore, by Gavin White p121-123
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  #57  
Unread 10-13-2018, 06:05 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism. I think a Leo moon and 5th house emphasis contribute to an optimistic mentality regardless.
I agree completely with what you say about Saturn, what a great way to put it!

And what a lovely fifth house, waybread! You're so lucky to be a grandfather, I wish I was. I keep asking my daughter when she's going to make me a grandfather and she says the French equivalent of "Papa! Hold your horses!" (and to mind my own business...)

Nice mutual reception with Mercury, the Lord of the Hour Marker.

So it looks like Mercury Venus and Sun/Mars are all in Aquarius, correct? And they are all ruled by Placidus H12 Saturn. Usually when we have planets in H12 in natal it indicates that there was purification work to be done. I can't help but look at the chart in whole signs, which would put Jupiter in H5 and explain how well your kids turned out and would put the other planets in H6, putting a lot of emphasis possibly on the work you did before you retired. Does that make any sense?

I'm not saying this as an either/or scenario, I'm proposing that the two house systems are two ways of looking at the same life.

All the best - Rhys
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  #58  
Unread 10-13-2018, 06:44 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I've been thinking about why it is that Saturn is often quite difficult in people's charts. After all, it is the planet that is the closest to the Primum Mobile and accordingly the closest to God, right? So why does it cause so much trouble?

When I speak of God, I'm not speaking of any particular God, of course. I'm speaking of whatever one's God concept is, whether it is the god of one of the semitic religions, or the God and the Goddess, or Buddha, Krishna, Shiva, Kali, who or whatever. Or god without form, god as universal mind, etc.

My favorite god concept is one given us by kabbalist philosopher Maimonides who somewhere in "Guide for the Perplexed" defined G*d as Nothing. (Note the capital "n"). On a deeper level he was referring to the Tree of Life and the Ain and Ain Sof, but for the rest of us punters he was simply saying that no one really knows who or what god is, so G*d is best defined as Nothing.

So Saturn is as close to this "Nothing" as things get in the manifest universe of the traditionals, and Saturn is pretty far out there, no wonder it is so cold and dry!

Anyway, the idea I had was that Saturn is difficult to deal with because it represents the will of God in our natal charts, being so close to the Primum Mobile.

For example, I'm in a H7 profection year, and my H7 is ruled by Saturn. So a few years from now when I look back at this time, probably what I will remember most is the various difficult lessons that are coming up with regard to my various business partnerships. This has already reared its ugly head!

My partner is in a H4 profection year, and her H4 is in Capricorn! Guess what? One issue after another has come up over various properties she owns, and she has had to deal with her mother losing her memory and no longer being able to take care of herself.

Whether it is by profection, zodiacal releasing period, primary or secondary direction or transit, when Saturn is activated, we can expect to be dealing with stuff that we might not have chosen to deal with unless we were forced to, but as waybread said, "Saturn isn't in our lives to be a heap of wonderfulness, but rather to encourage maturity and realism."

If it weren't for Saturn, I would just sit in front of the TV all day and get fat! :-)

Kind regards - Rhys

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Unread 10-13-2018, 07:02 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

''For example, the emanation deriving from Saturn tends to pull things together, while that deriving from Mars tends to provoke motion in them; however, at the level of material things, the passive generative receptable receives the one as rigidity and coldness, and the other as a degree of inflammation exceeding moderation. So then, does not what causes decay and want of symmetry come about through the differentiating, material and passive deviance of the recipients'' - Iamblichus, On the Mysteries - https://books.google.bg/books/about/...kC&redir_esc=y - page 69

Iamblichus' point is that the planets are not inherently bad, but their emanations reaching the sublunar realm, and mingling with imperfect beings makes their influences to be perceived as malefic on Earth.

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  #60  
Unread 10-14-2018, 04:30 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by Rhys View Post
I agree completely with what you say about Saturn, what a great way to put it!

And what a lovely fifth house, waybread! You're so lucky to be a grandfather, I wish I was. I keep asking my daughter when she's going to make me a grandfather and she says the French equivalent of "Papa! Hold your horses!" (and to mind my own business...)

Nice mutual reception with Mercury, the Lord of the Hour Marker.

So it looks like Mercury Venus and Sun/Mars are all in Aquarius, correct? And they are all ruled by Placidus H12 Saturn. Usually when we have planets in H12 in natal it indicates that there was purification work to be done. I can't help but look at the chart in whole signs, which would put Jupiter in H5 and explain how well your kids turned out and would put the other planets in H6, putting a lot of emphasis possibly on the work you did before you retired. Does that make any sense?

I'm not saying this as an either/or scenario, I'm proposing that the two house systems are two ways of looking at the same life.

All the best - Rhys
Thanks, Rhys. Cool hat!

Actually, I'm a grand-m鑽e instead of a grand-papa. It's OK. I'm often mistaken for a man on this forum. It doesn't faze me.

My Mars just nipped into Pisces.

I like to think of different house systems as showing different facets of a person. It's like photographing someone's face. People look different with a frontal portrait than they do with a profile or oblique view.

I also think whole signs have meaning in my life. In another type of astrology unmentionable on this board, a 12th--6th house axis is called a "serve or suffer" lifetime. I don't know about that, but I do feel a strong inner push to be of service to other people, which I mostly manifest these days by reading charts for people. I think the 6th says something about the person's inner workings beyond poor health or their relationship with people who provide services.

There is a lovely Hindu saying:

"When I don't know who I am, I serve you.
When I know who I am, I am you
."

I don't know if you count out-of-sign oppositions. I would, but by progression my natal (retrograde) Saturn is now in Leo, opposite sun. Possibly because of the traditional Saturnine rulership of Aquarius, Jupiter in Capricorn, as well as the opposition, I sometimes think I'm becoming too Saturnine. You know: duty, responsibility, disapproval of anything frivolous. The 5th house and Leo moon, in contrast, need a certain amount of fun and joy in life, so the trick is to keep these two in balance.

Also, Saturn supposedly rules one's father in a night birth, and I experienced mine as a very Saturnine sort of personality.

Anyway, this thread Isn't About Me, except insofar it might be useful to see how Saturn shows up for someone.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-14-2018 at 04:32 AM.
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  #61  
Unread 10-14-2018, 05:24 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Rhys, I'm not much of a theologian, but at the beginning of Genesis 1, we have a God who works in darkness and chaos, in a matrix that is "unformed and void." The work of creation in Genesis 1-2 is essentially the creation of order. With the creation of humans we then get concepts of morality, responsibility, prohibitions, and commandments. (I. e., "Don't eat the fruit," "You shouldn't have killed your brother," and so on.) Breaking the moral code, whether stated or unstated, results in punishment. The many commandments handed down on Mount Sinai are effectly worded as a contract. Follow them, and you'll get rain in the proper season and abundant harvests. Disobey them and you'll be punished with military conflict and drought. The earth itself is the witness to this contract.

To me this all sounds very Saturnine. Yes, of course, bad things happen to good people, let alone to little kids, through no fault of their own. But I think of ordinary life. If I overspend my credit card like there's no tomorrow, the bills nevertheless come due, with interest. The bills aren't somehow my hard luck, but the foreseeable and logical consequence of my actions.

Then throw in some Greek tragedy and Stoicism. Yeah, the gods don't particularly care about us, and oftentimes life reeks, but try to comport yourself with dignity, nonetheless.

This may be a more contemporary take on Saturn. In former centuries of traditional astrology (and the cognoscenti here can correct me if I'm wrong) Saturn was more or less the bin into which nastiness and hardships got stored.

I suppose the various faiths' religious scriptures and commentaries indicate what divine consciousness (in whatever form or name) wants of humans. I think C. S. Lewis said that God doesn't particularly care if we're happy: He only wants us to be good.

But back to the concept of God as nothingness. I think of divine consciousness as the space in which energy and matter occur. I think this is an ancient concept. In Genesis 2, God breathes life into Adam. Our words spirit, inspire, and respiration have the same root. (Cf. Greek pneuma, Hebrew ruah where breath and spirit get fused.) Today we know that the air is made up of chemicals and contains a lot of organic (pollen) and inorganic (dust) matter, but anciently I think that the air was about as close as they came to the concept of empty space (i. e, nothingness.)

Sorry that your partner is dealing with a mother in poor health. But actually, this might be part of the hard-headed realism of Saturn. Yes: people grow old, lose their health, and then die. It isn't pleasant, and care-giving to an elderly parent can take a big toll on the adult child, but those are the rules, essentially.

Best wishes for your studies, Rhys, and thanks for posting them here. You've given me lots to think about.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #62  
Unread 10-15-2018, 05:12 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
''For example, the emanation deriving from Saturn tends to pull things together, while that deriving from Mars tends to provoke motion in them; however, at the level of material things, the passive generative receptable receives the one as rigidity and coldness, and the other as a degree of inflammation exceeding moderation. So then, does not what causes decay and want of symmetry come about through the differentiating, material and passive deviance of the recipients'' - Iamblichus, On the Mysteries - https://books.google.bg/books/about/...kC&redir_esc=y - page 69

Iamblichus' point is that the planets are not inherently bad, but their emanations reaching the sublunar realm, and mingling with imperfect beings makes their influences to be perceived as malefic on Earth.
Wow, I really have to get back to my neoplatonists. What a great quote, thanks, petosirus!

I'm thinking that I have a tendency to think of the malefics as negative because the effects they have do not correspond with most people's association with "good". So perhaps when I am going through a period where Saturn is the time lord, as I am now in the midst of, one approach might be to change my attitude to what is good...

Anyway, it's not as if I have a choice in the matter. What comes up in Saturn is what comes up. so I might as well make the best of it!

Thanks again for this wonderful quote.

Regarding the sublunar, the impression that I have is that the energy that makes it to sublunar levels is corrupted somehow. Is this consistent with neoplatonic philosophy, petosiris?

Last edited by Rhys; 10-15-2018 at 05:35 PM.
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Unread 10-15-2018, 05:26 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Thanks, Rhys. Cool hat!

Actually, I'm a grand-m鑽e instead of a grand-papa. It's OK. I'm often mistaken for a man on this forum. It doesn't faze me. <snip>

I like to think of different house systems as showing different facets of a person. It's like photographing someone's face. People look different with a frontal portrait than they do with a profile or oblique view.

I also think whole signs have meaning in my life.<snip>
Well! Waybread, I am seeing you in an entirely different light! ;-)

People get my gender wrong all the time also, I'm used to it and glad you are, too.

I was thinking about your chart yesterday, in a whole sign chart you have Virgo Saturn in opposition to whole sign Venus. Do you use zodiacal releasing technique at all?

I have a night chart with Saturn/Venus in whole sign H4 in Libra. So when I went into a Level 1 Libra period it was "the best of times, it was the worst of times". It really was a mixture of very difficult things to deal with (Saturn the malefic contrary to the night sect) combined with absolutely lovely things (Venus, benefic of the night sect). So whenever I go through a Level 4 period that's in one of my cardinal houses (Libra, Capricorn, Aries, Cancer) it tends to be like that (combo of good and bad) to a greater or lesser extent depending on whether the release is conjunction, opposition, inferior or superior square to the Saturn/Venus natal placement.

I imagine you would experience something similar in zodiacal releasing when your mutual signs come up, is this the case?
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Unread 10-15-2018, 09:17 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Regarding the sublunar, the impression that I have is that the energy that makes it to sublunar levels is corrupted somehow. Is this consistent with neoplatonic philosophy, petosiris?
I am not an expert on neoplatonic philosophy to say anything on it, but my impression is that is what Iamblichus is implying, which is consistent with Aristotelean cosmology in general (this is not unexpected, many neoplatonists adopted some principles from Aristotle's philosophy).

''the eternal ethereal substance is dispersed through and permeates the whole region about the earth, which throughout is subject to change, since, of the primary sublunar elements, fire and air are encompassed and changed by the motions in the ether, and in turn encompass and change all else, earth and water and the plants and animals therein'' - Ptolemy http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1A*.html#2

According to Aristotle, the elements can change from one to another.

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I am not an expert on neoplatonic philosophy to say anything on it, but my impression is that is what Iamblichus is implying, which is consistent with Aristotelean cosmology in general (this is not unexpected, many neoplatonists adopted some principles from Aristotle's philosophy).

''the eternal ethereal substance is dispersed through and permeates the whole region about the earth, which throughout is subject to change, since, of the primary sublunar elements, fire and air are encompassed and changed by the motions in the ether, and in turn encompass and change all else, earth and water and the plants and animals therein'' - Ptolemy http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1A*.html#2

According to Aristotle, the elements can change from one to another.
'.......Nuclear transmutation
is the conversion of one chemical element
or an isotope
into another.
Because any element (isotope)
is defined by its number of protons (and neutrons) in its atoms,
i.e.
in the atomic nucleus, nuclear transmutation occurs
in any process where this number is changed...'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Yes, and transmutation is the basis of alchemy which was the protoscience for chemistry.

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Rhys, thanks for your interest in my chart.

With Saturn in Virgo and Venus in Aquarius, they are not in opposition. My natal Saturn and Mars in Pisces are in opposition. When I was younger they caused me a fair bit of grief. I was prone to saying very critical things to people (Mars) and then regretting it (Saturn.) I really love the Great Outdoors, but you wouldn't find me doing activities (Mars) like rock-climbing that require much courage. I tend to be super cautious (Saturn rules fear,) and to take a lot of precautions.

I haven't worked with zodiacal releasing. Another technique for my to-do list! I've worked a little bit with profections but haven't found a great match between events of the year and the corresponding house so far.

My feeling is that every planet, house, and sign has a suite of interpretations that are consistent with its core meanings. We can't make them mean anything we want, as the set is limited, but we can seek out more empowering interpretations.

For example, Saturn is the task master and disciplinarian. Mars rules athletes. But no one gets to be a good athlete without a lot of hard practice and minding the directions of Coach Saturn. Really good athletes (Mars) often put up with a lot of hardship (Saturn) like grueling hours of practice and injuries. But this is what it takes. Ditto for soldiers, which Mars rules. Soldiers (Mars) learn all kinds of hard discipline (Saturn) through basic training and drills.

So along these lines, a few years ago I started swimming laps at our local rec center. (Mars in watery Pisces opposite Saturn.) At this age and stage, I' wasn't going for speed, but distance/endurance. Very Saturnine. If nothing else, bringing Mars opp. Saturn to consciousness in a different way helped to balance them.

Right now I am practicing the piano again after a hiatus of several decades, mostly focusing on easy pieces from the classical period. Venus=music, Saturn=discipline, the past. It doesn't really take an aspect or an exchange of reception to pair planets in this fashion.

Is your chart posted somewhere?
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Oops, I'm so used to looking at whole sign houses that I misread the chart you posted, sorry about that, and thanks for filling out Saturn/Mars for me.

I had a realization yesterday about two metals corresponding (among others) to Saturn. There was lead of course, which i've been thinking a lot about recently because I just engraved a saturn talisman in lead. It's a heavy and dark metal, its heaviness reminds me of the heavy lessons I've learned from Saturn, but then those lessons can be taken to heart and turned into gold, and indeed gold is the other metal associated with Saturn.

So our job is to be astrological alchemists and to turn the lead of Saturn into its gold!

Regarding my chart, no it hasn't been posted, but I'm not shy at all about it. I think I'll do a thread on zodiacal releasing soon, I'll use my chart as an example.

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I’ve been trying over the past few days to tie in Saturn’s correspondence with Binah/Understanding on the Hermetic Tree of Life, but doing so turned out to not be an easy enterprise without getting overly detailed. So this is an attempt to be concise.

The Tree I’m speaking of is called the Kirchner Tree. Athanasius Kircher was a German Jesuit scholar who lived in the early 17th century, and his version of the Tree was first published in his Œdipus ニgyptiacus in 1652. The basic structure of Sephirot (Spheres) and links has since become the most common variant of the Tree used in Hermetic Qabalah and was the Tree used by the Golden Dawn, as opposed to the Lurianic Tree, which is an older, more traditional version.

The Hermetic Tree as most of us probably know consists of 10 Spheres (in Hebrew called Sefirot or Sephiroth), which are considered to be eternal and immaterial and are closely linked, at least in my view, with the Platonic Forms or Ideas.

Each of the Spheres operate at four discrete levels: (1) the God Name level (Atzilut), which relates to the element Fire ; (2) the archangel level (Briah), which relates to the Element of Water; (3) the Angelic order level corresponding to Air (Yetzirah), and finally (4) the Earth level (Assiah), which is the most dense level of the physical and manifest universe. All four levels exist simultaneously in all things, according to the kabbalists.

What interests us here as astrologers is the Assiatic level, for each of the Spheres correspond to a planet!

The highest Sphere, Keter (Crown), is actually more an interface to the great Infinite Nothing (Ain Sof) that lies behind at the root of everything, it corresponds with the One, with Unity. Things first start to take shape in the second Sphere, Chokmah (Wisdom), whose Assiatic correspondence is the Primum Mobile.

The third Sphere is called Binah (Understanding) and corresponds to Saturn in the Assiatic world, the fourth Sphere is called Chesed, which means loving kindness or mercy in Hebrew and corresponds to Jupiter. Then we have the fifth Sphere Geburah/Severity corresponding to Mars, and on it goes with Mars followed by Venus, then Mercury and finally the Moon.

So at this point we can’t help but notice that the Tree is unfolding according to the Chaldean order of planets!

It isn’t until the tenth and final Sphere of the Tree of Life that we arrive at the sublunar level in Malkut (Kingdom), which, depending on what model one is using the Tree for, can signify our human body, or using another model it can signify the manifest sublunar world (among other things).

There are three columns on the Tree, the one on the left contains the Greater and Lesser Malefics, the upper Sphere being Binah/Saturn and just below it we find Geburah/Mars. This column is called the column of Severity. The right hand pillar contains the greater and lesser Benefics, with Chesed/Jupiter being just above Netzach/Venus. The Middle Pillar at the center contains the Spheres which bring things into balance, with Tiferet/Sun being at the center of things and mediating everything, and Yesod/Foundation/Moon filtering all that comes from above into Malkut/Kingdom.

Waybread brought up Genesis chapter 1 in an earlier post, and it sent chills down my spine. This was because among magicians - at least ones who know their history - Genesis 1 is known as “The Path of Creation” and is the basis of all magic. It describes in detail the process involved in the making of a spell, indeed it outlines the ultimate spell where one first creates an area of focus, then cleaves to it, then swirlings start to take shape, then things get denser and denser until finally we get the wanted result.

Genesis was written by kabbalists, so it can be read on a number of levels. If one prefers a literal translation and wants to believe the world was created in seven days, of course, I'm not going to argue with such a person. But Genesis 1 contains so much more. Each Hebrew word in that first chapter of Genesis has numerological significance, indeed much has been made even of the very first word, “bereshit”, when analysed numerologically, oh we could go on for pages and pages about it!

However, what concerns us here as astrologers is the use of the word “God” 22 times in Bereshit Chapter 1. If one looks at the original Hebrew, the actual words used that were translated into the English word “God” was “YHVH Elohim”, which is the god aspect of Binah, which manifests physically as the planet Saturn. Twenty-two also happens to be the number of Paths on the Tree that connect the various Spheres. The God aspect of Mars is also Elohim: Elohim Gibor, which is usually translated into English as “God Almighty”.

So why does it make sense that Saturn and Mars are the physical manifestations of Elohim, what do Mars and Saturn have to do with creation?

Imagine the extremely cold and dry universe consisting of nothingness where the One or Unity turned back on itself and created an area within which creation could happen (called in Hebrew the tzimzum). The formation and structuring process started on an Idea level in Binah and this is an awesome and violent process where all kinds of stuff happens and once the process is set in motion, there is no stopping it. These are the forces at play behind Saturn, and at times they are made manifest on a mundane level or on a personal level.

No wonder we, as mere human beings, have “difficulty” dealing with it!

Same thing with Mars, though its action works on a lower level and of course it is extremely hot and dry, which it needs to be in order to accomplish its cutting and forging work. It takes any excess that blows over from the excesses of Jupiter and cuts it away, like white blood cells attacking cells that are no longer needed. Of course, on the sublunar level, we might not always appreciate it when Mars does this, especially if it is cutting away at something that we spent years building up! When this happens to me, I try to see it as all being for the greater good, painful though it might be.

So this is where traditional astrology comes in handy, at least for me. Mars and Saturn have to be somewhere in everybody’s chart, right? Happily, they are not always active all the time, 24/7. The time lords tell us when they are activated, and I for one would prefer to know when they are (activated) rather than stick my head in the sand and attempt to ignore their action, which in any case is futile, at least that’s my view of things.

And, as it happens, I’m in a H7 profection year, and my H7 is in Capricorn and is thus ruled by Saturn, which is probably why I’m thinking a lot about Saturn at present! So to use me as a benign example, the time lord I need to be looking out for this year is Saturn.

Why? Because it’s activated.

And sure enough, I already have had major H7 things come up involving my various business partnerships and collaborations.

I have found the best way to deal with things that come up under activations like these is to not attempt to ignore them!

As soon as a H7 Saturn issue comes up, I DEAL with it until the issue is put to rest. What’s the point of being able to predict what is going to happen if one just cowers in fear? The virtue of Geburah/Mars is courage, so it pays to tap on this aspect of Martian energy. The virtue of Binah/Saturn is silence. When one deals with Saturn at work in one’s life, it pays to stop talking and start listening. To watch how its energy is manifesting and to deal with it immediately as the energy begins to manifest on the outer.

So that’s my take on Saturn, from a kabbalist perspective.

Btw, I'm almost finished the Talisman that started this thread. I'll be posting it soon.

Kind regards

Rhys

Last edited by Rhys; 10-22-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Well, more power to you, Rhys.

My knowledge of Kabbalah is very limited. I converted to Judaism many years ago. I haven't been active in it for the past 25 years, but studied portions of it a fair bit in years past.

The Jewish tradition is that no-one should study Kabbalah until middle age (OK for you) and after thorough grounding in traditional Judaic studies. The reason is so that the student would be emotionally grounded before undertaking it.

There is a debate on the origin of the Kabbalah, but I think the scholars date it to the Middle Ages in Spain. But Judaism also has a tradition of inserting more recent developments backwards in time, retroactively. Ideas developed more recently got retroactively pasted on earlier times. Culturally, similar anachronisms are a very widespread practice.

I think also, Jewish scholars of past centuries poured over the Torah and Talmud, seeking glimmerings of meanings, often through numerology, alliteration, and word play.

I might be way off the mark, but Jewish history is very long and often very oppressed, impoverished, and sad. I imagine rabbis pouring over their texts, seeking a mystical release that couldn't be found in their mundane world.

In addition to teasing out glimmers of information, the rabbis also dealt with (suppressed?) information in the Bible that was inconsistent with orthodoxy. "Elohim" in Hebrew is a plural word, basically for "gods."

The Tetragrammaton-- the word never to be pronounced; and once printed, never to be destroyed-- is routinely bantered around by people who are not observant Jews.

There is also a long history of Christians and others looking for a grand theory that would show the underlying unity of seemingly disparate branches of esoteric knowledge. The Renaissance magus, memorialized in the character of Dr. Faust, comes to mind.

I'd have to say that Judaism in eastern Europe had its own really pagan magical traditions, like the golem.

To what extent is the study of Kabbalah cultural appropriation? To what extent is knowledge, esoteric or otherwise, available to all, to take from it what we choose?
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Unhappy Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I can feel Greater Malefic Saturn since the beginning. Every things are blocked, life is no fun,work place hell etc. Saturn destroyed my 5th/6th House activities including other houses/planets where it Aspecting.
Exalted Saturn in Libra 5th House.
Saturn Conjunct Detriment Mars in 6th.
Saturn Parallel Pluto 6th.
Saturn Square NN and Mercury.
Saturn Opposite Erir.
Saturn Square BML/H13.
Saturn Conjunct Eros.

Until I introduced to Astrology I didn't know the reason. Now I know why my life ***** and why I am a Miserable Person.
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post


I can feel Greater Malefic Saturn since the beginning.

Every things are blocked, life is no fun,work place hell etc.

Saturn destroyed my 5th/6th House activities

including other houses/planets where it Aspecting.
Exalted Saturn in Libra 5th House.
Saturn Conjunct Detriment Mars in 6th.
Saturn Parallel Pluto 6th.
Saturn Square NN and Mercury.
Saturn Opposite Erir.
Saturn Square BML/H13.
Saturn Conjunct Eros.

Until I introduced to Astrology I didn't know the reason.
Now I know why my life ***** and

why I am a Miserable Person.
You posted your comment on our traditional board

traditional board rules state that modern outers are irrelevant
asteroids are also irrelevant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
You posted your comment on our traditional board

traditional board rules state that modern outers are irrelevant
asteroids are also irrelevant
Sorry, I thought Western and Vedic, these two exists. Traditional means Western without Astroids. Thank you!

Still Mars and Saturn in 5th enough to spoil the fun of life.

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post

Sorry, I thought Western and Vedic, these two exists.
Traditional means Western without Astroids. Thank you!
Just to clarify for you - ours is a learning forum, so that's fine

On our traditional board Western Traditional astrology excludes outers
as well as asteroids
You can read the rules at the top of this page
however for your ease of reference I shall quote them now for you

QUOTE

Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only.
(Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined
as using techniques developed prior to 1700
by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian,
Hebrew, and Renaissance eras.
Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects
(sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction)
and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,)
non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.
The focus is less on

what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation
and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination

of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum
for further discussion.)
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post


Still Mars and Saturn in 5th enough to spoil the fun of life.

Exactly

- Mars and Saturn are the two traditional malefics
and their location in a natal chart
show areas of challenge in life
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