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  #51  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:08 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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The 9th House when combined with the 12th is the most "visionary". But it takes H3 combined with H6 to communicate those visions in a compelling, practical way.

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  #52  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:09 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by twistandshout View Post
That's ultimately what I'm implying. I think there needs to be a difference in actual traditional perceptions of astrology and the actual rules that make it the functioning craft that it is(I.e. planets, signs, aspects, houses, etc.). Like I see no issue with something like self-value and worth being associated with the second house via modern teachings because ultimately we have tied that into our concept of "value" in many cultures. Many people would not agree with this, however, which is fine, but even looking at the charts of other people, I see it correctly reflected in this.

There's a lot of ways in which we've developed and progressed as a species that simply is not reflected in traditional thinking. If astrology is to continue to develop and be relevant, there'll always be a need for flexibility.

If I understand you correctly you mean that there are fundamental rules that have always been existent but that have been overshadowed by different cultural or likewise notions?
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  #53  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:17 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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The 9th House when combined with the 12th is the most "visionary". But it takes H3 combined with H6 to communicate those visions in a compelling, practical way.
It wasn't a gotcha question. To the degree that Y talks about these higher frequency realities it's reasonable to think that they may have the ability to regularly interface with these realms, or else what is stated is merely from intellectual reasoning. I'm pretty sure I was clear enough in what I meant; the average person's "visionary" skills is poorly developed due to its "irrelevance". Said persons wouldn't have the skills to perceive the inner worlds, which one would have to have a connection with to speak with such conviction.
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  #54  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:22 PM
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Many who are gifted with above average, Spiritual, visionary ability, are unable to adequately communicate what they see. And, it may not be safe for them to do so, even if they could.
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  #55  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:24 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Many who are gifted with above average, Spiritual, visionary ability, are unable to adequately communicate what they see. And, it may not be safe for them to do so, even if they could.
That's fine. But it hurts their case when they allude to things that they aren't willing to elaborate on.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:29 PM
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That's fine. But it hurts their case when they allude to things that they aren't willing to elaborate on.
It's not as simple as the guy up in the crow's nest calling out "land ahoy"!
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  #57  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:31 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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It's not as simple as the guy up in the crow's nest calling out "land ahoy"!
Wouldn't staying silent be best then?
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:36 PM
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Wouldn't staying silent be best then?
Maybe more like, say only what others who are less sighted CAN understand and use to further their development. It's not how far along the Path that matters, it's being ON the Path. It's not a hierarchy of "who's ahead", although many take it that way. That's how Gurus make a living!

Last edited by david starling; 04-13-2017 at 10:41 PM.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:39 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Maybe more like, say only what others who are less sighted CAN understand and use to further their development. It's not how far along the Path that matters, it's being ON the Path.
I know you probably knew this since my parents were in diapers, but there is a way to train you visionary sight, if you are so inclined to do so.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:43 PM
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I know you probably knew this since my parents were in diapers, but there is a way to train you visionary sight, if you are so inclined to do so.
I decided to let it come to me naturally, after forcing it with Eastern religious practices and psychedelics.
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  #61  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:47 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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If I understand you correctly you mean that there are fundamental rules that have always been existent but that have been overshadowed by different cultural or likewise notions?
Yes, exactly. I feel like this is ultimately what causes the dissonance when it comes to discussing things like the 4H/10H/Mother/Father aspect of the chart that often times becomes the crux of what people say disproves the notion of associating sign rulership to houses. It will, of course, be hard to see the association if we continue to allow our perception of astrology to be purely defined by a lot of archaic thinking.

I get why people have the appeal to traditional understandings of Astrology but I suppose since I, personally, have gone into Astrology with having a mixture of Modern and Traditional learnings, I don't see the appeal of holding so tightly to the traditional understanding and definition to a lot of things. It's not to say that they're WRONG. But rather that they have a context in which they're accurate but that context is not every situation if that makes sense?
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by twistandshout View Post
Yes, exactly. I feel like this is ultimately what causes the dissonance when it comes to discussing things like the 4H/10H/Mother/Father aspect of the chart that often times becomes the crux of what people say disproves the notion of associating sign rulership to houses. It will, of course, be hard to see the association if we continue to allow our perception of astrology to be purely defined by a lot of archaic thinking.

I get why people have the appeal to traditional understandings of Astrology but I suppose since I, personally, have gone into Astrology with having a mixture of Modern and Traditional learnings, I don't see the appeal of holding so tightly to the traditional understanding and definition to a lot of things. It's not to say that they're WRONG. But rather that they have a context in which they're accurate but that context is not every situation if that makes sense?
In the trades, this is known as "the right tool for the right job"!
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  #63  
Unread 04-13-2017, 10:57 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by moonris3 View Post
@twist

If astrology is a science, like you said, and like I believe it to be too, then the solutions are always one. If we get differing results (and we know most results are.. a bit too broad, if not usually wrong) then it means we're applying the wrong procedures, for even if we apply different methodologies in a scientific research, we have to get just one result.

This to say, if the 4th house is related to the sign of Cancer, ruled by the Moon, then it can't mean male-like things. This is not a sexist statement and has nothing to do with society. It's life as simple as it is: male+female= life. No matter how many embryos you can nowadays reproduce with a computer, they'll be made as well by the male and the female. The Sun and the Moon can't be mixed following trends. The zodiac, which is life itself, can't be "updated" to social trends. No matter how many trans or gay people are out there nowadays, they've always been there. Same with the "collective consciousness", it's broader than your geolocation, weather might influence it but then, it will influence everyone.

We really need to rediscover the zodiac, this means, to me, to rediscover the real traditions. They're way before Ptolemy, way before humankind..
It's not to say that it's associated with "male-like things" but rather our perception of what constitutes Male and Female roles today is vastly different from the time when Astrology was readily and actively practiced on a larger scale. Essentially boiling this down to "male" and "female" will continually become an issue, especially as we, on a larger scale, are learning to accept a wider range of gender roles and experiences. This is why I feel looking at those two houses as Primary vs. Secondary is a bit more appropriate. I don't mean this as favorite vs. least favorite but rather Primary being much more present and active (as Cancer is a very intimate sign) vs. Distant and either idealized or feared (as Capricorn tends to be).

So no, this isn't about the idea of social trends but rather evolution. Women are no longer restricted to being the home maker. Some men fulfill this role in the roles of their children while the women go out and are the primary sources of income. Alternatively, restricting it to Male and Female also kind of negates the opportunity to even look at someone's chart if they have two parents of the same gender.

Even this discussion alone is showing the dissonance in perception. My father died when I was young and while the placement of my mother and father are still relevant in relationship to my chart, I can still see my mother in both placements as well since she was the primary care giver and acted as both the Mother and Father (which is amplified since Capricorn is my 4H ruler which I always found humorous).
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  #64  
Unread 04-13-2017, 11:02 PM
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The concept of Yin and Yang is far more encompassing than just Female and Male.
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  #65  
Unread 04-13-2017, 11:02 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by moonris3 View Post
@twist

If astrology is a science, like you said, and like I believe it to be too, then the solutions are always one. If we get differing results (and we know most results are.. a bit too broad, if not usually wrong) then it means we're applying the wrong procedures, for even if we apply different methodologies in a scientific research, we have to get just one result.

This to say, if the 4th house is related to the sign of Cancer, ruled by the Moon, then it can't mean male-like things. This is not a sexist statement and has nothing to do with society. It's life as simple as it is: male+female= life. No matter how many embryos you can nowadays reproduce with a computer, they'll be made as well by the male and the female. The Sun and the Moon can't be mixed following trends. The zodiac, which is life itself, can't be "updated" to social trends. No matter how many trans or gay people are out there nowadays, they've always been there. Same with the "collective consciousness", it's broader than your geolocation, weather might influence it but then, it will influence everyone.

We really need to rediscover the zodiac, this means, to me, to rediscover the real traditions. They're way before Ptolemy, way before humankind..
Zodiac on the ceiling of the PRONAOS OF HATHOR TEMPLE IN DENDERA
Learn how the Ancients used symbolism to tell a greater story
- the story of consciousness and creation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iabPmxh9tc4

even Diodorus Siculus explained
in his work BIBLIOTHECA HISTORICA FIRST BOOK CHAPTER LXXXI

"There is no country
where the position and movements of celestial bodies are observed with greater accuracy
than in Egypt"

Ancient Egyptians were such advanced astronomers
they even identified modern constellations as we see them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSNvHDg3G8

also

In ancient times Hellenistic astrologers aka Traditional astrologers
used THEMA MUNDI as a teaching aid
Thema Mundi places Cancer as the 'natural first house'









Eric Francis notes:

“Thema Mundi is the chart that truly is one of the ancient keys to astrology.
Keys lead to doors and doors lead to different places
this is the beginning of an adventure”
http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html


QUOTE
:
“Cancer, sign of mothering associates with the 1st, house of incarnation
where one comes into tangible form.

Aries is Thema Mundi 10th house of fiery initiative, career, fame, worldly expression.
Capricorn does not fit the outgoing initiative required of 10th.


Aries as the natural sign associated with 10th helps us understand Aries Point
which seems closer in meaning to 10th than to Ascendant.


Children are often conceived in 5th house
overlaying the house of passionate sex with the sign of mysteries of birth and death makes sense.
A fun romance, can involve you deeper than you planned”





THEMA MUNDI PDF
http://www.azastrologers.org/Article...ThemaMundi.pdf



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  #66  
Unread 04-13-2017, 11:02 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
The concept of Yin and Yang is far more encompassing than just Female and Male.
Haha yes! This!
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  #67  
Unread 04-13-2017, 11:19 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

@moon

I think ultimately we're saying the same thing, it's just mincing words at this point We both agree that the charts are set up around the concept of balance, it's really just a matter of what words we use to define the balance is all.
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  #68  
Unread 04-13-2017, 11:43 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Well that's ultimately exactly what I was arguing in my previous post re using Mother/Father as defining terms for those houses (and why it causes such huge dissonance). My entire statement is that using Male and Female as defining factors is ultimately more restrictive because on a whole, our perception of what role a Man and a Woman play have changed and continue to change drastically. Even the perception of Mother and Father is changing. My stating myself as an example (though anecdotal and understandably why anyone would want to dismiss it) was to show it's use in practice. But this hasn't really changed at all across the board from other charts I've seen in which their parents have switched roles or have non-traditional roles.

The long story short is - There's probably more flexible language to be used to make sure we're not unnecessarily boxing out experiences and, at the end, preventing ourselves from allowing Astrology to evolve as our perception of the roles that we play at large evolve as well.
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  #69  
Unread 04-14-2017, 06:13 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by moonris3 View Post
@twist

If astrology is a science, like you said, and like I believe it to be too, then the solutions are always one. If we get differing results (and we know most results are.. a bit too broad, if not usually wrong) then it means we're applying the wrong procedures, for even if we apply different methodologies in a scientific research, we have to get just one result.

This to say, if the 4th house is related to the sign of Cancer, ruled by the Moon, then it can't mean male-like things. This is not a sexist statement and has nothing to do with society. It's life as simple as it is: male+female= life. No matter how many embryos you can nowadays reproduce with a computer, they'll be made as well by the male and the female. The Sun and the Moon can't be mixed following trends. The zodiac, which is life itself, can't be "updated" to social trends. No matter how many trans or gay people are out there nowadays, they've always been there. Same with the "collective consciousness", it's broader than your geolocation, weather might influence it but then, it will influence everyone.

We really need to rediscover the zodiac, this means, to me, to rediscover the real traditions. They're way before Ptolemy, way before humankind..
No, astrology is not a science. This thread clarifies why:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8963

I hope you will also read Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

The traditional association of the 4th house as one's father and paternal inheritance has no reference to the moon as Big Momma. There is nothing intrinsically feminine about the moon: in Scandinavian pagan lore, the moon (Mani) is masculine and the sun (Sunna) is feminine; probably relating to the sun's more life-promoting traits in a cold climate. The Babylonian moon god Sin was masculine, and our western astrology ultimately derives from them. Khonsu, the ancient Egyptian moon god was masculine.

Until fairly recently, even in the West, one inherited one's surname, and any goods or land, from the father. In this sense, the 4th house also relates to family history (genealogy.)

In terms of modern astrology, I think the 4th does have meaning as one's early childhood conditioning. But of course, Dad (or his lack) has an impact on one's childhood as well as one's mother.
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Unread 04-14-2017, 10:48 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

No, astrology is not a science. This thread clarifies why:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8963

I hope you will also read Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

The traditional association of the 4th house as one's father and paternal inheritance has no reference to the moon as Big Momma. There is nothing intrinsically feminine about the moon: in Scandinavian pagan lore, the moon (Mani) is masculine and the sun (Sunna) is feminine; probably relating to the sun's more life-promoting traits in a cold climate. The Babylonian moon god Sin was masculine, and our western astrology ultimately derives from them. Khonsu, the ancient Egyptian moon god was masculine.

Until fairly recently, even in the West, one inherited one's surname, and any goods or land, from the father. In this sense, the 4th house also relates to family history (genealogy.)

In terms of modern astrology, I think the 4th does have meaning as one's early childhood conditioning. But of course, Dad (or his lack) has an impact on one's childhood as well as one's mother.
Fact is one thread on one astrology forum is not the final word on the matter
particularly in view of the fact that "astrology" has not been defined
Vedic astrology for example is viewed as a Science in India
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Unread 04-14-2017, 10:56 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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@twist
I'm sorry if I sound so strict when expressing my ideas, I agree on your analysis too, but some points we make are really different, and I can see we get there from the same premises... we just get some different conclusions, which is totally fine, because we both explained why that is so...

@way
No way I'm gonna read skyscript! Ffffss I don't wanna sound like a nazi, but seriously, I've read maaaany inaccuracies on that site, about things that people from this forum were defending like they were written on the Bible, because they found it on Skyscript. I'm especially talking about the history of astrology; if you get on skyscript it'll look as if there are answers to all of your questions, I don't know why they do that.. but I saw them making statements which are not explained if not by a vague "tradition says so". And they're wrong statements, because yes tradition could have said that (they don't tell what tradition though and I've seen them attributing systems to the wrong people..) , but it just didn't mean that thing in that way, for that purpose. Skyscript is all about horary predictions. That's a part of astrology I have many problems accepting, honestly.


To me astrology is a science whatever skyscript has to say about it. Even better, if it says it is not, it's to me another good reason to think it actually is. Come on, skyscript doesn't even count Uranus and Neptune.. duh.

Edit: Ive just read that, and that's a hella thread you started on skyscirpt, waybread. I really liked reading it but unfortunately I don't see it in the same way at all... some points were enlightening because you say basically that empirical data have no weight in the scientific approach yet you accuse astrology of not following those rules... Hm.
Another petty tiny detail I'd like to clarify is that the distinctions between astrology and astronomy have always existed, in facts they analyze different things. The skepticism on astrology always existed too, and you can find so many ancient authors that would give very doubtful considerations about the astrological system. It's always been for a few people, that's for sure. The strictly scientific methodology that you talk about, stems out of a very precise period of human kind, Illuminism. Illuminism isn't that much back in time, and it can be seen as responsible for having changed our world perception too. But that doesn't mean it is the ultimate way of seeing things. Einstein, more recently, traced a big line on all that mind frame.. we evolved from the illuministic "scientific" approach, and thanks to it, to a more relative approach to everything. Post modernism here for you. It's not the end of our discoveries, and I think, when talking about astrology, the best contextualization for it must be drawn to the present, the contemporary times, for astrology is applied here and now, not for someone who lives in the 1700 and used to call "demon" everything he could not understand, that's the past, we evolved.. a bit.
Though we don't know how it works physically, astrology is not a faith.
You can experience, observe and know how it applies first hand
There are sound reasons why it has proved so difficult to test the real practice of astrology under scientific conditions
and why so many tests have been flawed.
However, some simple experiments have yielded results
that are consistent with a scientific basis
to the fundamental premise of astrology
even though the practice is an art rather than a science

http://www.astrologer.com/tests/basisofastrology.htm
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Unread 04-14-2017, 11:53 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
No, astrology is not a science. This thread clarifies why:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8963

I hope you will also read Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

The traditional association of the 4th house as one's father and paternal inheritance has no reference to the moon as Big Momma. There is nothing intrinsically feminine about the moon: in Scandinavian pagan lore, the moon (Mani) is masculine and the sun (Sunna) is feminine; probably relating to the sun's more life-promoting traits in a cold climate. The Babylonian moon god Sin was masculine, and our western astrology ultimately derives from them. Khonsu, the ancient Egyptian moon god was masculine.

Until fairly recently, even in the West, one inherited one's surname, and any goods or land, from the father. In this sense, the 4th house also relates to family history (genealogy.)

In terms of modern astrology, I think the 4th does have meaning as one's early childhood conditioning. But of course, Dad (or his lack) has an impact on one's childhood as well as one's mother.

The astrological main stream methods that most people have learned and bought into are correctly not under the scientific paradigm. Whats important to understand however is that there Are correct methods and paradigms that actually Are working under the scientific radar and that can be objectively tested and consequently never fail to deliver results based on standard measures.

I nevertheless understand that based on where we are at now in our collective understanding of astrology it would be a false statement to call it a science since its not working within the parameters of its original functionality.
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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That's fine. But it hurts their case when they allude to things that they aren't willing to elaborate on.
As david starling said its about giving people what they are ready to hear and not overloading them with information that makes them shut down their apparatus.
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong. Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?

Ben Dykes says in the book "Astrological Prediction, by Oner Doser, Edited by Ben Dykes 2015", that when a planet is viewed as a Time Lord in natal charts, it is for management responsibility of one's life for a specific amount of time, as a way of making longer period of life intelligible. (pp.2)

So when Venus is for example in 11th house, it means his friends, when it is in 8th house, mortality and fear and so on. (pp.2)

Therefore which house a planet is in, determines what the planet is about, and will be doing.
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Though we don't know how it works physically, astrology is not a faith.
You can experience, observe and know how it applies first hand
For the ancient and medieval astrologers, astrology was a faith?
The divination comes down from the God, and astrology is a tool for it?
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