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  #1  
Unread 08-23-2016, 10:00 PM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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River Phoenix

Hi guys,

I love River Phoenix´s natal chart. He is such a good visual for Scorpio Ascendants, and at the same time, notice the Neptune there. This is Marilyn Monroe´s famous ability to intercept and become the fantasy that doesn´t necessary represent her true self, but that everyone else loved and wanted to emulate.
I find that it´s a captivating mix,which you can see in the way he moves on film, very intense, but you can´t quite understand why, since he seems gentle and small, but menacing at the same time. But a lot of his charm is still present in pictures (I´ll indulge a little) :



His Sun/Moon also pose a problem when looking at a clear analysis, since they both sit on the cusps so close to another sign that there seem to be not 2 but 4 of them. Concerning his Moon, it sits in the 29th degree, which is extremely dangerous I understand?

Another question for me is his childhood. He apparently was brought up in a cult, but still had a relationship with his family as adult, so I wonder if Aquarius on the 4th cusp means that they were simply eccentric, not abusive?

Then, more even than his charisma, his acting abilities were very promising, and contributed to the sense of great loss when he passed at only 23. Sun, MC and PoF in Leo certainly contributed to his talent, and I wonder if any other placements/aspects added to that, since he was not just a presence on screen, he really brought characters to life to the point where they are unforgettable.



My main question concerns his tragic death from allegedly a drug overdose. Now I don´t know if his Neptune is drug-prone but I understand the 8th house is the house mainly responsible for the end of our lives.
His 8th cusp is Gemini, and here is what I found on that:
Quote:
Gemini: The highest majority of time, these people pass by respiratory complications. Pneumonia, asphyxiation, blockage in the airways, lung disease, smoking, emphysema, lack of breath. Be extra careful looking after your lungs and breathing. Quit smoking if you are a smoker! (exemplore.com)
His 8th ruler is Mercury : brain related death, nervous system?
The planets sits in the 11th : death because of or amongst friends, at a social event?
It´s in Virgo : intestine related problems?
And conjunct exactly to Pluto : problems with body fluids and reproductive organs?

It´s all a lot of conflicting info, and more complicated even because the reports on his death are not completely clear. He apparently ODed, some say because he was poisoned, some say because of a mistake. What do you think? I feel like his death was so horrible that I can´t just see it as a little mishap on his behalf.

Thanks so much for any input!

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  #2  
Unread 08-25-2016, 01:19 AM
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Re: River Phoenix

River definitely has that Scorpio Rising look...Intense and smoldering

He played it so well in his photos. His eyes were just so hypnotic
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  #3  
Unread 08-25-2016, 06:23 PM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

Hi Mia,

I love Joaquin Phoenix, and had read about the tragic death of his brother, River. In terms of their upbringing, I have not read about parental abuse, but the family appears to have been quite unstable, erratic, nomadic, and impoverished.

River’s death at such a young age, was dark and tragic, and in full view of friends and family. He had a reported history of binging with drugs. The autopsy report is quite clear, River died from an overdose of heroin, cocaine, marijuana and valium.

I think you make good points. I will share what I am seeing in the chart related to your question.
The first thing I notice is the Scorpionic energy, which can be quite dark and complex. For some reason whenever I see scorpio I think of poisoning, so I can see why you used that word in your write up. And in a sense this man did poison himself. I think it was an accident, but all the conditions were in place for an accident to happen.

Yes you can see his death just like you say. His chart remarkably describes the exact manner of his death. 8th house is showing us how he dies. Gemini on the cusp of the 8h , Mercury rules that house, and is located in the 11h conjunct Pluto and wide conjunct to Uranus.

Pluto is that dark intense energy, related to poisoning, the 11h shows us the death in front of friends at a social event as you noted. Those who witnessed the death all state that soon after ingesting drugs River began having toxic seizures, these are caused by sudden disruptions in normal brain activity (Mercury). This caused his body organs, including his heart, to stop functioning. Uranus located near by shows us the sudden and very unexpected nature of his death.

While the 8th and 11th houses showed us the story of his death, the rest of the chart shows us more why he died. Jupiter on the ASC and in 12h can result in overindulgence. A Scorpio ASC can give destructive emotions. The 1h Neptune is showing a mother who may have had boundary issues. There may be been drugs in River’s environment as a child. The 1h Neptune may soak up the environment like a sponge for good or bad. North Node in Pisces, gives a large dose of potentially escapist energy, drug prone. The South Node conjunct the Sun and Mars, is showing us that he was constantly pulled back into ego, self esteem, destructive personas, over which he felt no control.

A Taurus Moon is a psychic moon, so again this theme of strong sensitivity and intuition in his chart and boundaries that would have been porous. A Taurus Moon craves security and stability and he had neither growing up. A quick rise to stardom and fame in Hollywood may not have provided much stability either. The Moon/Saturn conjunction is indicating a person who has difficulty expression emotions, feeling weighed down by responsibilities, and possible issues with women. The 7h moon is showing us that his current life mother was a partner in a past life. Which is going back to the 1h Neptune theme of a mother with poor boundaries, she may have seen him more as an equal, not a child. This did not give him the security and stably he craved.

The 12 house is showing us karmic debt issues. A Venus in Libra located there is showing us in past lives he was too focused on others, he compromised with others to the point nothing felt satisfying to him. Also Jupiter in the 12 shows us that in past lives he overindulged and possibly made mistakes in how he handled resources. Somewhat a metaphor for his life. He himself was a tremendous asset to the artistic world and made a major mistake in terms of how he handled this asset.

Often times a Pisces Sun or North Node is Pisces is ready to come off the karmic wheel, they have done a good job to get this far, but they are tired and ready to move on.

This is a good example of how a person can use their chart energy for good or bad. The natal chart shows the potential, there are positive and negative aspects, challenging and easy. Because we have free will on this planet, it is up to each of us to use the chart energy for good or bad. By all accounts River Phoenix was an incandescent major rising star in Hollywood and would have been a plus on the planet.

Juila
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  #4  
Unread 08-26-2016, 01:36 AM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

Quote:
Originally Posted by druex View Post
River definitely has that Scorpio Rising look...Intense and smoldering

He played it so well in his photos. His eyes were just so hypnotic
I know right, I can´t imagine what he must have looked like in person I also find that all that Leo energy shows up and mixes wonderfully with the Scorpio and Neptune on his ASC. He has everything : intense eyes, pixie ish look, great hair...
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Unread 08-26-2016, 02:42 AM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
Hi Mia,

I love Joaquin Phoenix, and had read about the tragic death of his brother, River. In terms of their upbringing, I have not read about parental abuse, but the family appears to have been quite unstable, erratic, nomadic, and impoverished...(cut quote for shorter post)
I feel so bad for him too, especially since he witnessed the collapse. I have siblings and won´t even say that I can´t imagine what it is like, because never would I try to imagine that kind of pain. Joaquin is quite interesting too, if you´d like to analyze his chart I´d be happy to read it. They lived, by some accounts, like devout Christians, like hippies, like homeless, etc. I heard about their poverty, and I think that that connects to his mother´s poor boundaries : I might be cynical, but usually, sending a young kid into hollywood is done to support the family, so she might have been somewhat of a stage mother. Maybe this was his "partner" role, instead of being taken care of financially like a child, he had to earn their living?

My question relating to his death is, could it have been a prank played by someone that went horribly wrong? I can´t imagine why someone would take so much drugs all at once if they knew what they were taking Also, you mention the theme of poisoning quite a lot, and haven´t mentioned any murder victim aspects, so that kind of accident might fit the best?
I´m so sad to read about his drug abuse problems, and at the same time it seems inevitable, or almost, considering all his troubling influences. Could you comment on his 29 degree Moon, I´ve read so much scary things about this degree... are they true for him?

You mentioned how he was a rising star in the business, and while it makes me sad to think about that loss, I´m curious as to how his choice of roles an his approach would have evolved. Also, he apparently wanted to become a musician too He also was a vegan and environmentalist which makes him such a weird paradox of constructive ideals and destructive behaviour.

I was very intrigued by what you wrote on Pisces, since some people in my family are very piscean. Do you mean that those with that energy feel tired, or bored by everyday life? Would that cause escapism? One of my pisces relatives loves spiritual practices like crystal healing and astral projection, and I wonder if there is a pull to let go and just leave this world already, but not necessarily in a dark way...

And finally thank you so much for your response, I love reading your analyzes, and still you amazed me by the detail into which you went to answer my questions. I´m glad you´re on this forum, it needs people like you!
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  #6  
Unread 08-26-2016, 06:19 PM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post

I feel so bad for him too, especially since he witnessed the collapse. I have siblings and won´t even say that I can´t imagine what it is like, because never would I try to imagine that kind of pain. Joaquin is quite interesting too, if you´d like to analyze his chart I´d be happy to read it.
I would love for you to read his chart, he seems like such a complex, enigmatic, and intense personality. Witnessing the tragic death of a brother must have caused a great deal of trauma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
They lived, by some accounts, like devout Christians, like hippies, like homeless, etc. I heard about their poverty, and I think that that connects to his mother´s poor boundaries : I might be cynical, but usually, sending a young kid into hollywood is done to support the family, so she might have been somewhat of a stage mother. Maybe this was his "partner" role, instead of being taken care of financially like a child, he had to earn their living?
I had exactly the same thought Mia when I was looking at River's chart. The parents were in need of income and saw an opportunity in their beautiful, charismatic, talented children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
The question relating to his death is, could it have been a prank played by someone that went horribly wrong? I can´t imagine why someone would take so much drugs all at once if they knew what they were taking Also, you mention the theme of poisoning quite a lot, and haven´t mentioned any murder victim aspects, so that kind of accident might fit the best?
No I do not think it was a prank gone bad. Pluto seems to have his dark fingerprints all over this death. Here is more of my thought process as I look at River's natal chart.

The sign on the 8th house cusp is Gemini, which points to multiple causes of death or involvement by multiple parties.

The 8h house is empty, so we look for the ruler of the house which is Mercury, located in the 11h. I think that in Vedic astrology, Mercury is an important marker for suicide or self involvement in death. Also River has a Mercury/Rahu aspect which can indicate death by a poisonous injectable.

The Mercury/Pluto conjunct is quite sinister, complex and indicates the possibility of foul play. Mercury/Pluto trine his Moon/Saturn in the 7th house certainly seems to point to the involvement with other people in the death, perhaps a woman who is a partner.

Mercury in Virgo might suggest, a quiet, modest death. But River's death was anything but quiet. It was totally dramatic, in full view of family and friends (11h). It seems the Plutonic energy was the important piece of his death.

So we can see a dramatic complicated death, somehow sinister, dramatic. But with multiple people involved, including River.

If you look at the reports about River’s death, it all seems to fit.

A number of friends have stated that River has been escalating his drug use in the months prior to his death. They were especially concerned about his use of heroin. In the days leading up to his death, he had been having a major drug binge.

River showing up at the Viper Club already seriously impaired, he stumbled into the club and could barely walk. I suspect he had been doing drugs with a female friend or relative prior to arriving at the Club. He most likely was not alone when he was doing drugs prior to entering the Viper Club.

Once he arrived, the reports indicate that he was doing cocaine with friends. One friend may have given him a cocaine laced drink, not with malice intent, this drink by itself would probably not have killed him. One account is that he immediately goes to the restroom where drug dealers have congregated. One drug dealer injects a speedball, called Persian Brown, into one or both arms. It turns out to be a lethal dose based on the already high level of drugs in River’s system. The police are aware of the name of this drug dealer and did not press charges. We also have a situation where the friends and family waited over a half hour to call medics. Some say he might have been saved if they had called the first time he was displaying toxic seizures and vomiting.


So we can see the line up of people involved in River’s death. His own drug binging in the weeks leading up to his death. His binging on the night of his death. A possible woman who was doing drugs with him before he got to the Club. Friends giving him cocaine. HIs drug dealer giving him injectable heroin and cocaine. River's own lack of judgement doing a speedball when he was already toxic. The lack of judgement of the drug dealer in giving an already toxic client more drugs. The failure of friends and family to call 911 immediately. So no, I don’t think it was a prank. I think it was a deadly series of events, culminating in his death. There is a enough blame to go around, but primarily he is the one who did it to himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
I´m so sad to read about his drug abuse problems, and at the same time it seems inevitable, or almost, considering all his troubling influences. Could you comment on his 29 degree Moon, I´ve read so much scary things about this degree... are they true for him?
I will sometimes look at decans, but I don't usually look at specific degrees. Not because I don't think they are important, but because I don't have any training in that area. I know that late Taurus decan is ruled by Saturn, but that is about it. Perhaps you can say more about the 29 degree Moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
You mentioned how he was a rising star in the business, and while it makes me sad to think about that loss, I´m curious as to how his choice of roles an his approach would have evolved. Also, he apparently wanted to become a musician too He also was a vegan and environmentalist which makes him such a weird paradox of constructive ideals and destructive behaviour.
Yes it would have been interesting to see what roles he took on as he matured as an actor. He had already been nominated for an Academy Award, so perhaps would have at some point received an Oscar. From what I read, River's desire to be a musician did not pan out as he did not have the talent for it. This was supposed to have upset and depressed him in the weeks prior to his death. And yes there as a duality about him, the clean cut vegan facade, hiding a destructive drug addict reality. If you look at his IC you will see a dual sign Aquarius. So I suspect he learned duality at home when young. This by the way would make for an excellent actor. Early training on assuming other personas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
I was very intrigued by what you wrote on Pisces, since some people in my family are very piscean. Do you mean that those with that energy feel tired, or bored by everyday life? Would that cause escapism? One of my pisces relatives loves spiritual practices like crystal healing and astral projection, and I wonder if there is a pull to let go and just leave this world already, but not necessarily in a dark way...
Pisces tend to have one foot on earth, one foot on the other side. So earth activities can seem a bit benign or unsatisfying. Also they enormous creative imagination, intuition and get bored with restricted activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
I finally thank you so much for your response, I love reading your analyzes, and still you amazed me by the detail into which you went to answer my questions. I´m glad you´re on this forum, it needs people like you!
You are welcome Mia, glad to do it.

Julia
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  #7  
Unread 09-04-2016, 06:43 PM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
I would love for you to read his chart, he seems like such a complex, enigmatic, and intense personality. Witnessing the tragic death of a brother must have caused a great deal of trauma.
Hi, here is the Joaquin Phoenix thread : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=97363

I don´t know much about him, but boy does he have a focussed chart, very Scorpio! Interesting is Joaquin´s Neptune in the 3rd, maybe it´s related to siblings doing drugs? I feel extremely bad for him, especially since I´ve read that he was in the middle of the drama of River´s passing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
(...)

The sign on the 8th house cusp is Gemini, which points to multiple causes of death or involvement by multiple parties.

The 8h house is empty, so we look for the ruler of the house which is Mercury, located in the 11h. I think that in Vedic astrology, Mercury is an important marker for suicide or self involvement in death. Also River has a Mercury/Rahu aspect which can indicate death by a poisonous injectable.

The Mercury/Pluto conjunct is quite sinister, complex and indicates the possibility of foul play. Mercury/Pluto trine his Moon/Saturn in the 7th house certainly seems to point to the involvement with other people in the death, perhaps a woman who is a partner.

Mercury in Virgo might suggest, a quiet, modest death. But River's death was anything but quiet. It was totally dramatic, in full view of family and friends (11h). It seems the Plutonic energy was the important piece of his death.

So we can see a dramatic complicated death, somehow sinister, dramatic. But with multiple people involved, including River.

If you look at the reports about River’s death, it all seems to fit.

(...)


So we can see the line up of people involved in River’s death. His own drug binging in the weeks leading up to his death. His binging on the night of his death. A possible woman who was doing drugs with him before he got to the Club. Friends giving him cocaine. HIs drug dealer giving him injectable heroin and cocaine. River's own lack of judgement doing a speedball when he was already toxic. The lack of judgement of the drug dealer in giving an already toxic client more drugs. The failure of friends and family to call 911 immediately. So no, I don’t think it was a prank. I think it was a deadly series of events, culminating in his death. There is a enough blame to go around, but primarily he is the one who did it to himself.
It´s so sad to read that, since it really becomes clear how not just one person (although I agree totally with you, River did decide himself to take the drugs) but a whole environment became so toxic, those in his life at that time clearly didn´t care about him or themselves in the right ways.

I appreciate your extensive analysis, it´s really so much good info that I feel I could use it in other readings if I change the Planets up, thanks for that!

To be honest, I didn´t want to accept that he hadn´t been hurt with premeditation by others, maybe because I´ve read some sinister things about Johnny Depp´s alleged (!) jealousy, but this is way more realistic, since it seems like the horrible hollywood cocktail of vulnerable person and thoughtless entourage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
I will sometimes look at decans, but I don't usually look at specific degrees. Not because I don't think they are important, but because I don't have any training in that area. I know that late Taurus decan is ruled by Saturn, but that is about it. Perhaps you can say more about the 29 degree Moon.
I´ve just read up on it to refresh my memory, and it´s admittedly not as dark as I remember it, it´s more about the Moon in the 29th signifying the end of a cycle and the urgency tied to learning it´s lesson before it´s too late.
Quote:
Natally:*Whereas the 0° planet is taking initial steps on the road ahead to envision, discover, and create its journey, the 29° planet senses inevitability, irrevocability, and finality - the end of a familiar path. But a planet at the final degree has a "knowingness" about it; it's a seasoned player, very skilled in that sign, having earned its stripes. Those of us with a natal planet at 29° - though we're equipped to deal with issues linked to the sign - will likely encounter some of the most challenging facets of that planet-in-sign's meaning in our lifetime. There may also be a desire to understand*what has already happened that cannot be undone*- a lifelong mission to resolve and come to terms with these issues which we seem to have been saddled with at birth.
Quote:
29 Degrees Taurus
This suggests the end a monetary cycle.* Individuals find themselves either filing bankruptcy, or finally pulling out of debt.* However, filing bankruptcy essentially relieves them from excess debt.* This could also signify the end of a cycle involving real estate.* Perhaps, a land sale profits little or they overpaid for that acreage.* Unfortunately, some sort of debt is denoted here; a new financial cycle is on the horizon.


It is only when the lesson of that planet is mastered that you may move on and progress spiritually and universally. People with an Anaretic Degree have a lesson to learn.
Moon
Spending some time unpacking your emotions is time well spent. The Moon encourages us to open ourselves up and to communicate our true feelings. There may be issues with your mother or women in your life that you need to resolve. Listen to your instincts and your feelings and make efforts to express them more honestly. Pay attention to your mood. Your first reaction may be the best; trust your instincts and reflexes. Seek out or offer your mothering and nurturing side. Pay close attention to the health of your stomach and breasts.
Those are just some of the stuff google has sprung up with, but here is an interesting forum if you want more of a discussion : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44561

I wondered about this meaning because his Moon not only influences his relationships (7th) but also rules his spirituality (9th). /Just a note on his 9th: his PoF sits there I wonder if focussing more on his beliefs and making them true instead of a facade, like you said, would have made his life easier, though maybe he learned hypocrisy and duality so early that it didn´t occur to him?/
Plus, the financial aspect of taurus makes me wonder if it relates to his materially driven relationship with his mother, and possibly females that liked the riches and fame about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
Yes it would have been interesting to see what roles he took on as he matured as an actor. He had already been nominated for an Academy Award, so perhaps would have at some point received an Oscar. From what I read, River's desire to be a musician did not pan out as he did not have the talent for it. This was supposed to have upset and depressed him in the weeks prior to his death. And yes there as a duality about him, the clean cut vegan facade, hiding a destructive drug addict reality. If you look at his IC you will see a dual sign Aquarius. So I suspect he learned duality at home when young. This by the way would make for an excellent actor. Early training on assuming other personas.
Your comment on the IC got me very interested in that part of the chart (it´s easy to ignore it compared to the MC, but I guess they work together). Aquarius is a somewhat emotionally absent sign, so maybe there was a deeper disconnect in his early days? Interesting how that adds to the Leo-Aqua line and finally his actor-prone MC.

No doubt he would have gone on to become a household name. His charisma and focus were intense, even when he was allegedly already a frequent user. I´ve seen excerpts from his unfinished last project Dark Blood and he was on point, impressive even and that alongside Judy Davis! Maybe the whole family is so talented because of that initial instability and for children possibly a lack of stable identity and isolation from a larger community. I imagine that they felt like they had to "make up" a role for themselves anyway, so why not professionally as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
Pisces tend to have one foot on earth, one foot on the other side. So earth activities can seem a bit benign or unsatisfying. Also they enormous creative imagination, intuition and get bored with restricted activities.
(...)
Yes! That describes her to the letter, routine wears on her, it makes her sick. For me, that looks like fearlessness, since she moves on easily from stable and reliable things to find something new but also uncertain.



PS : Now I love long posts, so I´ll add something that I just recently discovered and I love it Muses (asteroids, usually 9 but there are so many more tied to creativity).
Here an easy explanation : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/blog/...-in-astrology/

You mentioned that his musical career was failing, and I noticed that he has Euterpe (music) close to the Asc, so maybe he wanted to be seen as that more than it was his forte in itself?

Kalliope and Erato are both tied to writing, and they are very close to his IC in Aquarius. I wonder if that would have made him a potential writer, or just someone who had a lot of influence from literature when he was young?

Clio conjunct his Urania : his claim to fame (imprint on history) related to his mystical qualities, which I feel would become intensified by its place in Sag. Maybe that was his "gift", since it´s in the 2nd, the fame and the connection to deeper, invisible truths, and perhaps it added to his mystique?

Now what made me really happy is his Neptune conjunct very tightly to Melpomene! This is the muse of acting and theater Adds to this mysterious, chameleonic but intense quality, and practically guarantees acting talent, since Neptune is the expert when it comes to film related business. The emphasis of this Muse is TRAGIC storytelling by the way, and that just makes sense with his career as well as the story of his life.

Ok, now just because I can :
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  #8  
Unread 09-05-2016, 07:26 PM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Hi, here is the Joaquin Phoenix thread : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=97363

I don´t know much about him, but boy does he have a focussed chart, very Scorpio! Interesting is Joaquin´s Neptune in the 3rd, maybe it´s related to siblings doing drugs? I feel extremely bad for him, especially since I´ve read that he was in the middle of the drama of River´s passing.
Hi Mia, Oh goodie on Joaquin's chart I will take a look at it.
For sibling info I tend to look at Mercury and its aspects, but yes 3h is something to look as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
It´s so sad to read that, since it really becomes clear how not just one person (although I agree totally with you, River did decide himself to take the drugs) but a whole environment became so toxic, those in his life at that time clearly didn´t care about him or themselves in the right ways.

I appreciate your extensive analysis, it´s really so much good info that I feel I could use it in other readings if I change the Planets up, thanks for that!

To be honest, I didn´t want to accept that he hadn´t been hurt with premeditation by others, maybe because I´ve read some sinister things about Johnny Depp´s alleged (!) jealousy, but this is way more realistic, since it seems like the horrible hollywood cocktail of vulnerable person and thoughtless entourage.
Bingo

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
I´ve just read up on it to refresh my memory, and it´s admittedly not as dark as I remember it, it´s more about the Moon in the 29th signifying the end of a cycle and the urgency tied to learning it´s lesson before it´s too late.

Those are just some of the stuff google has sprung up with, but here is an interesting forum if you want more of a discussion : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44561
Many thanks for the info. Yes 29 degrees has that feel to it, last chance to learn what you need to learn, so make the time count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
I wondered about this meaning because his Moon not only influences his relationships (7th) but also rules his spirituality (9th). /Just a note on his 9th: his PoF sits there I wonder if focussing more on his beliefs and making them true instead of a facade, like you said, would have made his life easier, though maybe he learned hypocrisy and duality so early that it didn´t occur to him?
Yes, good point Mia. Perhaps that was the way out of the insanity. Finally learning his own inner value system, inner core and spirituality. Instead of all the pretend and being what others wanted him to be. Sadly, he didn't get there in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
, the financial aspect of taurus makes me wonder if it relates to his materially driven relationship with his mother, and possibly females that liked the riches and fame about him.
Reports state that River and his siblings were raised in abject poverty and from an early age were forced to beg and perform on the street to make a living. So we can see his value was about earning money for his parents and learning to present in a way that maximized profit.

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Your comment on the IC got me very interested in that part of the chart (it´s easy to ignore it compared to the MC, but I guess they work together). Aquarius is a somewhat emotionally absent sign, so maybe there was a deeper disconnect in his early days? Interesting how that adds to the Leo-Aqua line and finally his actor-prone MC.
If you look at a chart, you can see that the IC is the base. It anchors the entire chart.
It is much more than than just family and home, it is the root of the innermost Self.
It can refer to inner psychological issues (transits to the 4th house and IC can kick up these issues). And also what it is that makes a person feel safe.

And Aq IC is going to need a lot of space, but will need a secure base to return to.
This is also showing how his family valued him from a young age as an independent child who could take care of himself.

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No doubt he would have gone on to become a household name. His charisma and focus were intense, even when he was allegedly already a frequent user. II´ve seen excerpts from his unfinished last project Dark Blood and he was on point, impressive even and that alongside Judy Davis! Maybe the whole family is so talented because of that initial instability and for children possibly a lack of stable identity and isolation from a larger community. I imagine that they felt like they had to "make up" a role for themselves anyway, so why not professionally as well.
Yes I agree, it is clear that the early childhood experiences and parenting led to their Hollywood success. The ability to be chameleons, etc.

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
: Now I love long posts, so I´ll add something that I just recently discovered and I love it Muses (asteroids, usually 9 but there are so many more tied to creativity).
Here an easy explanation : http://www.astrologyweekly.com/blog/...-in-astrology/
Thanks, will take a look.

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You mentioned that his musical career was failing, and I noticed that he has Euterpe (music) close to the Asc, so maybe he wanted to be seen as that more than it was his forte in itself?
Yes good point. Here he is so very talented as an actor, and yet he wanted to be a musician and devastated that he was not good enough. Something was driving that need to be seen as a musician.

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and Erato are both tied to writing, and they are very close to his IC in Aquarius. I wonder if that would have made him a potential writer, or just someone who had a lot of influence from literature when he was young?
His biography states that he spent a great deal of his childhood handing out religious literature from the cult his family belonged to.

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
conjunct his Urania : his claim to fame (imprint on history) related to his mystical qualities, which I feel would become intensified by its place in Sag. Maybe that was his "gift", since it´s in the 2nd, the fame and the connection to deeper, invisible truths, and perhaps it added to his mystique?

Now what made me really happy is his Neptune conjunct very tightly to Melpomene! This is the muse of acting and theater Adds to this mysterious, chameleonic but intense quality, and practically guarantees acting talent, since Neptune is the expert when it comes to film related business. The emphasis of this Muse is TRAGIC storytelling by the way, and that just makes sense with his career as well as the story of his life.
Very interesting, and yes a tragic talented artistic star.

Ok, now just because I can :
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Re: River Phoenix

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(...)

Yes, good point Mia. Perhaps that was the way out of the insanity. Finally learning his own inner value system, inner core and spirituality. Instead of all the pretend and being what others wanted him to be. Sadly, he didn't get there in time.
His PoF is also in Leo, and Leo´s ruler Sun in Virgo, so taking care of his health might have helped a lot as well... it´s so sad that he missed the obvious dangers.

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Reports state that River and his siblings were raised in abject poverty and from an early age were forced to beg and perform on the street to make a living. So we can see his value was about earning money for his parents and learning to present in a way that maximized profit.
The Moon is also conjunct his Saturn, what do you make of that? It would represent another connection to his Aqua IC, but also to Cap in his 3h, so again siblings. It makes me think that along with the materialism and his parents seeing him as so independent, there might have been serious limits t his nurturing, maybe he wasn´t emotionally that close to his mother at all, and just had his function? Maybe Saturn restricts the very Taurean nurturing as well, so no comfort and safety?

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
If you look at a chart, you can see that the IC is the base. It anchors the entire chart.
It is much more than than just family and home, it is the root of the innermost Self.
It can refer to inner psychological issues (transits to the 4th house and IC can kick up these issues). And also what it is that makes a person feel safe.

And Aq IC is going to need a lot of space, but will need a secure base to return to.
This is also showing how his family valued him from a young age as an independent child who could take care of himself.

(...)
What re some Aqua IC issues?
He didn´t seem to be isolated, an had friends despite his otherness. He also didn´t seem to repress or ignore feelings, quite the opposite actually.
Thanks for the IC info

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Yes good point. Here he is so very talented as an actor, and yet he wanted to be a musician and devastated that he was not good enough. Something was driving that need to be seen as a musician. (...)
Do you see a problem with music/voice/instruments in his chart? His Venus in Libra makes me think of possibly a pleasant voice, and his Capricorn in the 3h of a sensual communication style. This points to a god singer, and he has Moon in Taurus, so emotional voice as well. Maybe Saturn in Taurus inhibited that, but maybe he´d have been great at it later in life? It´s sad how he didn´t hold on to what he was good at but found music so important for some reason.



His Sun (father) seems pretty afflicted, and especially interesting is the square to the Moon, since maybe it is indicative of his parents troubled marriage?
It also conjuncts Mars, which makes me wonder if his father was violent or tyrannical.
Weirdly enough it sits in his 10h, but opposes his 4h, so the family environment, and also his NN. It´really a mix of good an bad it seems, since at least that influence helped him in his career, both because it ruler his Leo cusp and because of the placement.

Interesting are his Mercury aspects, since they relate to Joaquin, especially his Vesta conjunction. He seems like a devoted older brother, but maybe took it too seriously, perhaps due to the Saturn aspect as well. Makes one wonder who really acted parentally in that household.

His Vesta is also in the 11h, which fits right in with his social activism, and in Libra, so maybe that´s how he got aways with being a militant vegan

His Ceres in Taurus and the 7th makes me think that he thrived on physically nurturing relationships and was an attentive partner. Maybe for him partners meant an anchor?

I was excited to find Lilith on his MC, since she traditionally represents the taboo side of the feminine archetype. She is the boss and the reject, independent rebel and wise, but basically dark and alluring, to the point of being scary. In Leo and the 10th, this seems to fit his acting choices perfectly, since he had androgynous qualities as an actor, often depicted in a way typical for women (just watch the 18+ opening scene of My Own Private Idaho for objectifying, and a beautiful Oface, typically a role reserved for young actresses). He also had that animalistic darkness when he represented sexually devious characters.

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She can be found in people who work in areas like defending the rights of women, refugees, the under-privileged; in international law, in war zones, in women’s refuges. She is a gutsy advocate, activist, on the side of the deepest emotional truths and in any area of life where the feminine has continued to be dishonoured, rejected and abused.
This makes sense considering his image at the time revolved very much around his activist activities, and I wouldn´t be surprised if he was a feminist as well.

Also, he has Lilith in Leo, just like Marilyn Monroe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQHyiaSgOv8

This really inflames their appeal and makes them attract attention in an almost magical way. This is so true for River, since he stole the show very subtly, even as a side character.

Earlier I was wondering what his choice in future roles would have been, and the muse asteroid on his Neptune made me think mostly tragic ones, but this adds to the rebellious, and at the same time strongly sexual ones. I think he would have been absolutely excellent at choosing future work, since Lilith is always exciting, and can get quite deep as well.


What really intrigues me, since I have the same placement, is the SN/NN axis and what it meant to him. His SN in the 10h might have mean that he concentrated on his public self and career as a means to soothe himself, but it might have been a bad habit as well, since his NN in the 4h means that he has to explore his family, his origins and childhood. This would surely be painful with his history, but it makes me wonder about the karmic implications of that life path.
We are supposed to steer away from the SN, and his problems and demise seem very much related to his work environment, as untypical as it might have been. But at the same time, his career was blessed, so isn´t that a residue from his past lives that he got as a "gift" of sorts? I´ve read that the SN territory comes quite easy, even if it´s not so satisfying, since we are pulled back to the NN every time.

Maybe this SN dissatisfaction made him question his work as an actor, and he tried music, but failed karmically as well, since it became again a 10h matter instead of one of the 4th.

Together with his PoF in the 9h it makes me think that this was someone who propulsed himself out into the world, and did well, but happiness was in the private areas of life all along. Maybe that´s why he grew disillusioned with his career at such a very young age (granted, he worked since he was a kid), despite the success.

What would your opinion or advice on this SN/NN axis be?

Last edited by MiaMiaMia; 09-13-2016 at 09:17 PM.
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Unread 09-18-2016, 06:34 PM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

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His PoF is also in Leo, and Leo´s ruler Sun in Virgo, so taking care of his health might have helped a lot as well... it´s so sad that he missed the obvious dangers.
A Virgo Sun can have a somewhat delicate constitution, so yes, self-care is important with this sign. Also Virgo gives nervous energy that reacts badly to stress, and is prone to psychosomatic ailments.

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
The Moon is also conjunct his Saturn, what do you make of that?
It would represent another connection to his Aqua IC, but also to Cap in his 3h, so again siblings. It makes me think that along with the materialism and his parents seeing him as so independent, there might have been serious limits t his nurturing, maybe he wasn´t emotionally that close to his mother at all, and just had his function? Maybe Saturn restricts the very Taurean nurturing as well, so no comfort and safety?
Yes. Saturn conjunct Moon can indicate a number of things, most of which seem to fit.
Lack of self-worth, problems with emotional expression, feeling weighed down by responsibilities, separation from mother either physically or emotionally, a need for a stable home, difficult relationships with women, controlling mother. Yes a restriction on his relationship with his mother is shown here.

This aspect can also give a faithful and reliable person who is responsible. Yes a Taurus Moon craves comfort and security, and Saturn placed there would be a restriction. Saturn in Taurus gives a hard working person, tenacious, but tightly controlled feelings.

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What re some Aqua IC issues?
He didn´t seem to be isolated, an had friends despite his otherness. He also didn´t seem to repress or ignore feelings, quite the opposite actually.
Thanks for the IC info
The Aq IC is showing a childhood/ family life that was isolated. Also showing an unsettled and chaotic family. Perhaps in terms of his feeling expression, he was a study in opposites. Someone who repressed feelings then over expressed them. Flip side of the same coin. His intense and frantic use of drugs is telling us that something was very wrong on an emotional level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Do you see a problem with music/voice/instruments in his chart? His Venus in Libra makes me think of possibly a pleasant voice, and his Capricorn in the 3h of a sensual communication style. This points to a god singer, and he has Moon in Taurus, so emotional voice as well. Maybe Saturn in Taurus inhibited that, but maybe he´d have been great at it later in life? It´s sad how he didn´t hold on to what he was good at but found music so important for some reason.
I think Taurus is important for singing talent, and unfortunately he has Saturn placed in Taurus. I agree with his Venus in Libra, and also Pisces in the 5h of creativity, would give some musical talent. Perhaps it wasn’t enough in a very competitive Hollywood, and/or his drug use was interfering with his talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
His Sun (father) seems pretty afflicted, and especially interesting is the square to the Moon, since maybe it is indicative of his parents troubled marriage?
It also conjuncts Mars, which makes me wonder if his father was violent or tyrannical.
Weirdly enough it sits in his 10h, but opposes his 4h, so the family environment, and also his NN. It´really a mix of good an bad it seems, since at least that influence helped him in his career, both because it ruler his Leo cusp and because of the placement.
Yes we have not talked much about his father, but he and his marriage are there in River’s chart as you describe very well. The Sun represents River’s father and the Moon represents River’s mother.

Virgo Sun conjunct Mars is part of a t-square to the Moon/Saturn conjunction. River’s father represented by this Virgo Sun with issues around being critical, aggressive, and willful with a Taurus Moon wife, restricted by her need for security and material things. A 10h Sun shows us that River’s father was with him in a past life, as was his mother (7h Moon). So the family dysfunctionality has been reenacted for many past lives Sun conjunct Mars is showing both a father and child with aggression issues.

And yes, most excellent observation Mia, Dad is a part of River’s Nodal Axis, and Mom forms a square to it. The Sun/Mars is conjunct River’s South Node, so we can see that River was pulled back into old ways. Dad was a part of those old ways. Planets conjunct the south node can feel almost like powerful sub-personalites. The Sun and Mars would indicate episodes of ego and aggressiveness that seem to come out of no where. Also we can see that Mom and Dad served to pull River away for his North Node, his soul purpose. But despite this, his early childhood did contribute to his soul progress.

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Interesting are his Mercury aspects, since they relate to Joaquin, especially his Vesta conjunction. He seems like a devoted older brother, but maybe took it too seriously, perhaps due to the Saturn aspect as well. Makes one wonder who really acted parentally in that household.

His Vesta is also in the 11h, which fits right in with his social activism, and in Libra, so maybe that´s how he got aways with being a militant vegan

His Ceres in Taurus and the 7th makes me think that he thrived on physically nurturing relationships and was an attentive partner. Maybe for him partners meant an anchor?

I was excited to find Lilith on his MC, since she traditionally represents the taboo side of the feminine archetype. She is the boss and the reject, independent rebel and wise, but basically dark and alluring, to the point of being scary. In Leo and the 10th, this seems to fit his acting choices perfectly, since he had androgynous qualities as an actor, often depicted in a way typical for women (just watch the 18+ opening scene of My Own Private Idaho for objectifying, and a beautiful Oface, typically a role reserved for young actresses). He also had that animalistic darkness when he represented sexually devious characters.
Your asteroid comments are very interesting. I don’t know much about them, but your comments are consistent with the rest of the chart. With the easy aspects of Mercury to the Moon in River’s chart, it does appear that River perhaps acted as a surrogate parent to his younger siblings. I also agree with your comments about River’s androgyny. He has 7 planets in feminine planets, indicating a gender switch in this life.

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Earlier I was wondering what his choice in future roles would have been, and the muse asteroid on his Neptune made me think mostly tragic ones, but this adds to the rebellious, and at the same time strongly sexual ones. I think he would have been absolutely excellent at choosing future work, since Lilith is always exciting, and can get quite deep as well.

What really intrigues me, since I have the same placement, is the SN/NN axis and what it meant to him. His SN in the 10h might have mean that he concentrated on his public self and career as a means to soothe himself, but it might have been a bad habit as well, since his NN in the 4h means that he has to explore his family, his origins and childhood.
Yes I agree totally. His SN in the 10 house is showing past lives with a focus on career, but in this life his home life and inner psychology were supposed to be important. He was to have a good work/life balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
This would surely be painful with his history, but it makes me wonder about the karmic implications of that life path.
We are supposed to steer away from the SN, and his problems and demise seem very much related to his work environment, as untypical as it might have been. But at the same time, his was blessed, so isn´t that a residue from his past lives that he got as a "gift" of sorts? I´ve read that the SN territory comes quite easy, even if it´s not so satisfying, since we are pulled back to the NN every time.
The Nodal Axis is about balance, not either/or. We are to take the good of the SN and integrated it with our NN path. So yes his 10h success was related to his past lives, but in this life there was to be a balance with career and home and inner psychology.

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Maybe this SN dissatisfaction made him question his work as an actor, and he tried music, but failed karmically as well, since it became again a 10h matter instead of one of the 4th.
I think this is an excellent point Mia. I agree, there must have been something wrong, he was not satisfied with his acting career, or why pursue a music career and be so bitterly disappointed when it did not take off? And why they frantic and intense drug abuse. Something was very wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Together with his PoF in the 9h it makes me think that this was someone who propulsed himself out into the world, and did well, but happiness was in the private areas of life all along. Maybe that´s why he grew disillusioned with his career at such a very young age (granted, he worked since he was a kid), despite the success.
From a karmic perspective, the 9h is about karma around beliefs, ethics, a search for meaning, spirituality. He had worked to support the family from early childhood, and never stopped to think about himself or life meaning perhaps. If he had, his life would not have gone off the rails as it did.

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What would your opinion or advice on this SN/NN axis be?
I think I answered this question above, but if not, ask some more questions.
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Re: River Phoenix

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A Virgo Sun can have a somewhat delicate constitution, so yes, self-care is important with this sign. Also Virgo gives nervous energy that reacts badly to stress, and is prone to psychosomatic ailments.
That´s so interesting, but what confuses me still is how that relates to Mercury? You know I like to discuss the rulers so Saturn always made more sense to me than Mercury for virgo. Maybe my image is too influenced by gemini, but what would you atribute Virgo´s sensitivity to? Are they especially perceptive, or super connected with their brain?
One of my best friends is a Virgo, as are her triplet sisters, and none are very cerebral. They all have some chronic stuff going on, from body weight issues in both directions to hormone disruption, but I just can´t make sense of it as a Virgo thing.


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Yes. Saturn conjunct Moon can indicate a number of things, most of which seem to fit.
Lack of self-worth, problems with emotional expression, feeling weighed down by responsibilities, separation from mother either physically or emotionally, a need for a stable home, difficult relationships with women, controlling mother. Yes a restriction on his relationship with his mother is shown here.

This aspect can also give a faithful and reliable person who is responsible. Yes a Taurus Moon craves comfort and security, and Saturn placed there would be a restriction. Saturn in Taurus gives a hard working person, tenacious, but tightly controlled feelings.
This is so sad, as often with Saturn, and unfortunately he never lived to see his Saturn return make things better. I even wonder if it would have been better to give music a shot once that passed, since maybe the hard work would have paid off?
Also his need for stability must have upset him a lot as a child, and the mother again, really, I start to wonder how her chart must look and what kind of person she was in general.

Could this placement have made his work ethic? Maybe instead of ambition he had this internal standard? Also interesting is the repression or separation from feelings. That could have contributed to his drug issues, but stands weirdly against his job as an actor where feelings are his bread and butter.

Quote:
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The Aq IC is showing a childhood/ family life that was isolated. Also showing an unsettled and chaotic family. Perhaps in terms of his feeling expression, he was a study in opposites. Someone who repressed feelings then over expressed them. Flip side of the same coin. His intense and frantic use of drugs is telling us that something was very wrong on an emotional level.
That fits his Moon/Saturn conjunction as well, so there was a lot of saturnian influence on his deepest self. Maybe that made him a pessimist?
I agree with your comment on his drug use, looked like he was either insanely addicted or really tried to push down a ton of feelings. Since Saturn rules inferiority and responsibility he might have felt like he should have done more for others, from his family who relied on him financially to his humanitarian causes in general.

Weirdly it also makes sense again with his Moon concerning acting... that´s such a paradoxal mix of characteristics, the expressiveness plus the repression. Did he feel responsible for other people´s feelings too?
Makes me think of a Moon in 12h person maybe, or Joaquin with Saturn in Cancer. I can´t help but hate their Mom for this actually those kids deserved sooooo much better.

If we read it in a family context, maybe the mother herself felt overwhelmed with responsibility? She had a huge family and little means after all...

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I think Taurus is important for singing talent, and unfortunately he has Saturn placed in Taurus. I agree with his Venus in Libra, and also Pisces in the 5h of creativity, would give some musical talent. Perhaps it wasn’t enough in a very competitive Hollywood, and/or his drug use was interfering with his talent.
Since Taurus is related to the 2h traditionally, would you say that it impacted his karmic gifts overall?
It´s sad that whatever prevented it overshadowed the rest of his chart, since he was such an artistic person.

Concerning his Venus, it´s in the 12h, which could have allowed him to tune into the universal beauty, this should also have contributed to that kind of talent and tact in general. Here is an interesting excerpt on that placement :
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Venus in the 12th adversely aspected can signify indulgence with alcohol or drugs, which can also be hidden from all the nearby people. Alternatively, it would attract lovers with such kind of problems, which could also start spreading to the owner of the chart. This does not necessarily involve substance problems and getting addicted, but even nurturing the significant other and being near him while he is in trouble can definitely be an issue for the native itself. Such a placement can easily make the chart owner to get lost in love and finding it difficult to keep his own identity while being with his partner. This can let people take advantage of the native, especially when he is feeling loved. During the native’s childhood, love as a concept could have been criminalized by the surroundings. Thus, the person has linked affection and love with being forbidden or immoral, and it is this exact way of thinking that makes him to tend towards hiding his emotions and keeping his private life away from the lights of the community.
I find this fits some of the rumours about River. On the set of My Own Private Idaho there was supposedly a nonchalance about drugs, especially heroin, and many costars were said to use it casually. One of them was his rumoured then boyfriend/lover Keanu Reeves.So both the secret holding of drugs and affairs, plus their connection make sense.
A darker rumour that I hope is not true was the sexual abuse of the children in the sect his family belonged to, but even if that was the case, hopefullly he escaped that.

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If someone has a 12th house Venus, it is quite possible that he is unaware both of his beauty and of the impact that this might have on other people. The 12th house is a blind spot, it is the things that we have inside us and cannot quite understand because we are looking outside. Furthermore, this tendency can be created because of lack of nurturing during the childhood; the parents might have not paid attention to make the child feel beautiful and understand its beauty – and the concept of beauty generally. Thus, when reaching an adult age, the 12th house still remains a blind spot, making the native have wrong perception of his own beauty. Furthermore, as the 12th house is traditionally ruled by Neptune, the effect it creates when materializing is an ethereal type of beauty, which is promising even if not apparent. This can attract through osmosis all type of people, who are intrigued by the idea to uncover what exactly makes the native beautiful and understand this subconscious attraction that it creates. Of course, psychic vampires are also to be of the first to be attracted as the native is a usually an easy victim- unless its 12 house is supported by aspect or planets that indicate protection.
That quote fits him perfectly, and ties in with his Neptune in the Ascendant. I´m afraid that made him especially interesting to the toxic hollywood environment.

Concerning his Jupiter in the 12h this is from the same source and really fits him so well, especially at the end of his life :
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Such a placement will make the person be an altruist and a dreamer, frequently indulging in visions of utopian societies where personal benefit does not matter. No matter how wonderful such ideas sound, the native with such a placement is advised to always keep one foot on the ground. His philosophical approach of universal love may be theoretically correct, but it is always better to keep a trace of common reality. In fact, a stable basis on reality can be of great aid to expand towards alternative realities; the best way to jump to the skies is to have stable ground under you.

When Jupiter is residing in the 12th house, the individual should be careful to not allow the planet expand any possible “martyr syndromes” that can dwell deep in his mind. His self-sacrifice tendencies for others can often help other people, but it would be quite wrong to constantly create similar situations, just to feel being of use. In the end, this can lead to being taken advantage of, or elsehow self-destruct – even if Jupiter is well-aspected.
That makes me think of his helpfulness to his family and his outspokenness about his causes.

Quote:
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Yes we have not talked much about his father, but he and his marriage are there in River’s chart as you describe very well. The Sun represents River’s father and the Moon represents River’s mother.

Virgo Sun conjunct Mars is part of a t-square to the Moon/Saturn conjunction. River’s father represented by this Virgo Sun with issues around being critical, aggressive, and willful with a Taurus Moon wife, restricted by her need for security and material things. A 10h Sun shows us that River’s father was with him in a past life, as was his mother (7h Moon). So the family disfunctionality has been reenacted for many past lives Sun conjunct Mars is showing both a father and child with aggression issues.
It´s so sad that this pattern continued and most likely didn´t have a proper resolution in his life. For nomadic hippies his parents seem oddly like a conservative clichee, the domineering husband and materialistic wife I´m curious about two earthy people and their relationship with resources, first renouncing them and later using their children to provide. It´s interesting to see another, less sweet part of River too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
And yes, most excellent observation Mia, Dad is a part of River’s Nodal Axis, and Mom forms a square to it. The Sun/Mars is conjunct River’s South Node, so we can see that River was pulled back into old ways. Dad was a part of those old ways. Planets conjunct the south node can feel almost like powerful sub-personalites. The Sun and Mars would indicate episodes of ego and aggressiveness that seem to come out of no where. Also we can see that Mom and Dad served to pull River away for his North Node, his soul purpose. But despite this, his early childhood did contribute to his soul progress.
I love to read about the SN/NN axis, and your comment is a great illustration of his relationship with his family in general, especially since he seemed to have "fled" it without a good sense of separation and just brought negative pattern with him where he went. I wonder what shift occurred so that what helped him early on held him back later.

Speaking about Mars, I´ve read that ignoring our mars or repressing it can lead to depression, and since his was not only related to performing/leadership, but also his public self there might have been a psychological need for a creative public image. That must have made the separation from acting and failure in music even more wounding.

I´ve come back to my favourite source for the Nodes and I hope you´ll forgive the excessive quotes, but I just couldn´t cut anything out, since it ringsso true with my own experience and seems to fit River to the letter. Also, it mirrors what you´ve written and confirms the Saturn/Moon energy :

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It’s a major part of what they’re here to do. Their life experience is dominated by the relationship—’good’ or ‘bad—with their parents; their interpretation, or navigation, of what the parents thought of them, will define what happens to them, more so than for most people (unless you’re looking at someone with strong Cancer/Capricorn, and/or Moon/Saturn placements).

If you also see a strong aspect between Moon/Saturn in the chart of someone with a 4/10 nodal axis, you’re seeing the karma of the chart personified, and it will indicate how intensely the individual is involved in parental rules and ideas about how life ‘ought’ to go. Further, the individual ‘allows’ the parent/s to define him or her, and has a difficult time separating from parental definitions.

If you have a chart with this Nodal axis, take a look at the rest of your planets and houses to see if an overall family-related theme is indicated. This axis is concerned with traditional values, taking care of others, nurturing, making a home, and, of course, family in all its varieties.
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You might find, with this Nodal axis, that you are somehow ‘chosen’ in the family to carry on traditions or be encouraged to leave the family in order to be better able to support them financially. Your response to this sense of engrained ‘duty’ might be enthusiastic or not, depending on the rest of the chart and how strongly you believe the messages handed down to you.

First-born sons, for example, with this Nodal axis, make perfect ‘hooks’ for the rest of the family to hang their expectations on regarding being ‘just like dad,’ as do first-born daughters who are turned into ‘mom.’
Now more precisely for a NN in Aquarius in the 4th :

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Leo on the South Node here might hold the North Node back through a lack of self-belief. I’ve found that Leo South Node people often have to be pushed to do the thing they’re good at, that will get them the most fame or help them define themselves—it’s as though they’re shying away from the strong ego you just know glows inside the bushel basket they’re hiding their unique selves under.

North Node in Aquarius’ role is to be unique, though, and to do that, he might just have to break away from the family entirely. That decision will depend on how authoritarian are the people raising him, and whether or not they treat him well, or make him follow mindless rules that break his spirit and exist only to force compliance from someone who needs to breathe fresh, open-minded air.
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Attitudes toward authority really suck in this nodal axis until the individual becomes an authority figure or makes peace with the parent he thinks was trying to squash his individuality or deny him freedoms other signs either don’t need or take for granted are theirs as a birth-right.

But you get the point. The South Node in Leo here isn’t interested in what his father or other authority figure has to say if the father is a windbag (and yes, I’m using that term to remind us of Ouranos’ association with the sky). Authority figures are what Leo ‘remembers’ being, or has already developed an understanding of.

The goal now is (ideally, in spite of Uranus as its ruler) to represent the family and its ideas about how things are supposed to be, fairly and with awareness. Aquarius is, at its best, a very aware sign; it knows because it understands, but that equation requires empathy, not pure intellectualism. You can’t think your way through everything; learning to balance Leo’s huge heart with Aquarius’ potentially huge intellect is the way to work with this nodal axis.
Interesting how River personally seemed to either undervalue or invalidate his acting abilities and moved away from them. Perhaps pushing him towards the stage was not so negative of his parents after all.
The heart + intellect makes me think of his activism again.
And as you said, moving away from the Sun was part of his urges.

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
Your asteroid comments are very interesting. I don’t know much about them, but your comments are consistent with the rest of the chart. With the easy aspects of Mercury to the Moon in River’s chart, it does appear that River perhaps acted as a surrogate parent to his younger siblings. I also agree with your comments about River’s androgyny. He has 7 planets in feminine planets, indicating a gender switch in this life.
Interesting Moon/Mercury connection, I´ll look more closely at that in other charts in the future.
Ha, so I´ll count River as a honorary girl Funny how he was idolized for being so handsome when he had so much femininity.

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
Yes I agree totally. His SN in the 10 house is showing past lives with a focus on career, but in this life his home life and inner psychology were supposed to be important. He was to have a good work/life balance.

The Nodal Axis is about balance, not either/or. We are to take the good of the SN and integrated it with our NN path. So yes his 10h success was related to his past lives, but in this life there was to be a balance with career and home and inner psychology.
I like that interpretation a lot, since I find that I´m quite attached to my SN myself and loosing that would hurt a lot. I wonder about the balance act people with that axis have to manage once they go into the most 10h position ever when they court fame. Interestingly Mick Jagger has the same dichotomy, only he has the signs reversed compared to River with Leo 4h. He isn´t known for a stable home life but more for half made and left behind families everywhere, recently with his new baby on the way! I also find it strange how the anchor of the chart and the place we start in during our life becomes also something so far removed that I feel it becomes a lifelong conquest to get there and secure it.

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I think this is an excellent point Mia. I agree, there must have been something wrong, he was not satisfied with his acting career, or why pursue a music career and be so bitterly disappointed when it did not take off? And why they frantic and intense drug abuse. Something was very wrong.
Thank you, and I agree but I wish that someone was there or something had made him realize while on the other hand, when someone represses their feelings that´s exactly what they avoid...

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Originally Posted by Julia Karmic Astrology View Post
From a karmic perspective, the 9h is about karma around beliefs, ethics, a search for meaning, spirituality. He had worked to support the family from early childhood, and never stopped to think about himself or life meaning perhaps. If he had, his life would not have gone off the rails as it did.


I think I answered this question above, but if not, ask some more questions.
Yes, that makes perfect sense and what do you think about the association of the 9h with education? He was deprived of it to a large extent because of his lifestyle early on, and perhaps more training would have given him more confidence in his acting or more options outside of hollywood.

Yes, thank you, but I´ll probably ask more because I just love the nodal axis discussion especially
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  #12  
Unread 11-29-2016, 07:04 PM
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Re: River Phoenix

Not a single retrogade planet in his chart. All the planets worked straight ahead with out any stop (either for good or bad).
Moon in Anaretic degree.
South Node conjuct Sun, square Moon, Square Neptune.

Do i have to say something?
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  #13  
Unread 11-29-2016, 08:18 PM
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Re: River Phoenix

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Originally Posted by OldChicken View Post
Not a single retrogade planet in his chart. All the planets worked straight ahead with out any stop (either for good or bad).
Moon in Anaretic degree.
South Node conjuct Sun, square Moon, Square Neptune.

Do i have to say something?
Yes, please do you´re dealing with a newbie to astrology
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  #14  
Unread 11-30-2016, 01:20 AM
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Re: River Phoenix

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
My main question concerns his tragic death from allegedly a drug overdose. Now I don´t know if his Neptune is drug-prone
Hi 3x Mia.

What do you mean by this? He's got some pretty difficult Neptune- Saturn aspects/T-squares there. Drugs could be enticing...
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  #15  
Unread 11-30-2016, 05:01 PM
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Re: River Phoenix

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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
Hi 3x Mia.

What do you mean by this? He's got some pretty difficult Neptune- Saturn aspects/T-squares there. Drugs could be enticing...
Hi Sibylline!

At the time I wondered if his drug overdose might have been induced by a prank of some sort played by his friends. That was the rumour circulating around and I wanted to make sense of his tragedy, since it just didn´t look like suicide. It turns out he probably just didn´t calculate his dosage.

If I understand you right Neptune (drugs) are then connected to Saturn (insecurity/consequences), right? His opposition could have caused a back and forth between work and indulgence?
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Unread 11-30-2016, 08:29 PM
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Re: River Phoenix

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Originally Posted by MiaMiaMia View Post
Hi Sibylline!

At the time I wondered if his drug overdose might have been induced by a prank of some sort played by his friends. That was the rumour circulating around and I wanted to make sense of his tragedy, since it just didn´t look like suicide. It turns out he probably just didn´t calculate his dosage.

If I understand you right Neptune (drugs) are then connected to Saturn (insecurity/consequences), right? His opposition could have caused a back and forth between work and indulgence?
Yes, and the Taurus Moon-Saturn conjunction opposed by Neptune in the 1st and squared by Sun-Mars conjunction in the 10th creates a trap whereby the person is sensitive and will need to escape the burdens of every day life yet is driven by responsibility and achievement. They don't feel well-equipped to deal with these pressures and could easily become overwhelmed with imaginary fears due to being, as Julia mentioned, sponge-like.
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  #17  
Unread 10-31-2017, 03:02 PM
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Re: River Phoenix

Hello everyone.

I'm a relative newbie to astrology and a newbie to this forum too.

I'm posting in this thread first for 2 reasons: 1. today is the anniversary of his death, and 2. he is indirectly the reason why I got into astrology in the first place. I'll explain:

A few years ago, a friend of mine who was dabbling in astrology at the time (sadly the interest was short lived) decided to determine some of her friends' natal charts and match them with the celebrity they had the most in common with in that regard. I was matched with River Phoenix (who I liked but wasn't exactly a fan of, back then). She thought the similarity was eerie, but wasn't experienced enough to tell me a lot more about it. The coincidence has intrigued/haunted me ever since, and as a result I got into both astrology and River, though I'm no expert in either.

So, what we have in common is Virgo Sun, Taurus Moon, Scorpio Ascendant, Leo Mars, Sagittarius II, Capricorn III, Taurus VI, Gemini VIII, Cancer IX.

Our charts are as follows:

(River's is the outer circle, mine is the inner circle. presented as a synastry chart for visibility purposes only, though synastry is obviously not what interests me here.)

Can you please help me interpret and understand the most important aspects re: the parallels between the 2 charts? I understand this is perhaps an unusual request, but having so much of my natal chart in common with someone with such a dark, complicated life and tragic demise is a bit... disquieting, let's put it that way!

Thank you. I'm looking forward to meeting you all & talking to you in the other forums!

Last edited by untxi; 10-31-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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  #18  
Unread 08-05-2018, 01:26 AM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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Re: River Phoenix

I know it has been a long time, but I find his chart so fascinating, and I´ve discovered a new branch of astrology recently, so I just couldn´t hold back!

I´ve followed Couteau´s transcendental planet calculations and determined River´s scores (based on conjunctions of different kinds). The lowest score corresponds to the Least Aspected Planet (LAP) and the highest to the Most Aspected Planet (MAP).
Couteau has a different theory when it comes to LAP (sometimes called unaspected, sometimes peregrine by other astrologers), namely that it´s pretty much the essence of our purpose and should be understood more deeply and explored during our lifetime.
The MAP on the other hand is neurotic and overactive : best to shift the attention away from it. Planets close in score can be grouped together somewhat, as they support the MAP and LAP.

Here are River´s scores:
LAP : Venus 41
Uranus 110
Jupiter 211
Mars 311
Saturn 320
Mercury 400
Pluto 400
Sun 410
Neptune 500
MAP : Moon 520

Quotes on LAP Venus :

For many artists, the presence of soul is indeed palpable. It may be experi*enced through an internal muse whose cooperation will either guarantee or forbid inspiration in the formal expression of artistic values.

When one is overidentified or inflated with Venus, this results in excessive yin behavior that denies expres*sion to the other planetary forms. The personified soul (the keynote Venus equation) may take the form of a person who has a tendency to allure or magnetize others into their field and to entice them to serve and worship the so-called goddess, who is now impersonated rather than appropriately personified (e.g., an anima woman; a “female impersonator”). Here the native is possessed by the goddess image, rather than working to consciously integrate her. Such improper soul expressions may also take the form of epicurean pleasures that trigger a false sense of interpersonal intimacy and harmony. The “orgy” of physical pleasures is a classic form of such hyperidentified Venusian behavior.



On the LAP Venus supported by a secondary Uranus :

“original / artistic style,” “innovative / portrayals of beauty,” and “rebellious independence, especially in matters of art and love”
“quirky manner / of portraying physical beauty”
“original portraits of eccentric characters,”
reversals of fortune” (Sec*ondary Uranus)
unexpected problems
creative genius

On the MAP Moon:
emotional turmoil, overreaction, overestimating oneself, emotional preoccupation, excessively emotional approach
extraordinary sensitivity to external stimulus

Mixed with supporting Neptune:
ego-deprivation, confusion, and intense subjectivity
compassionate, humanitarian efforts
empathy, self-sacrifice, and compassionate efforts on behalf on those in need


MAP :
Improper manifestation of the MOON energy:

•Suffocating another person through overburdening attention.
•Maternal overprotection (expressed through either a father or a mother).
•Tendency to overmerge, resulting in a loss of emotional borders.
•Tendency to overconnect, resulting in conspiratorial fears and paranoid expressions of emotion.
•Becoming emotionally overwhelmed in personal relationships, resulting in a loss of identity.

Improper manifestation of the NEPTUNE energy:

•The attempt to dissolve the focal point of consciousness in another person.
•Personal identification (or inflation) with the Neptune principle, e.g., “generating illusions” for personal gain.
•Inappropriate “blurring” of the ego-boundary and -structure (e.g., through the use of drugs or alco*hol), resulting in the destruction of consciousness rather than in its transcendence.
•A “dissipation” of soul.



Concerning Transcendental Inflation :

How does all this relate to misusing Transcendental energy and misusing astrology in general?

With Leading Planets, the hypo- or hyperactive behavioral tendencies will often interrupt or usurp the focal point of the individuation pro*cess symbolized by the Transcendental Planet. Certainly, this is dangerous enough. But in the case of an inflated Transcendental, we have an enormously potent concen*tration of energy that is ordinarily manifested in everyday life. When the native is too closely identified with this psychic energy (when he feels as if it is his personal possession or creation), then an “inflated” point of view (that one is, rather than that one channels the archetypal force) results in a dangerous existential situation. The biographies of the above-men*tioned despots exemplify such dangers.
Since the Transcendental is initially experienced as a spiritual longing, normally, the native does not mistake it for a personal acquisition. Rather, he becomes involved in the quest to understand and express it, usually in a variety of manners that require a sustained concentration and devotion. The latter conditions, indicating a certain “distancing” from the energy, are usually enough to indicate to anyone with common sense that one does not actually own or create such functions but, rather, that one’s core energies are the result of a long, age-old process of heredity and biological evolution, culminating in the progressive spiri*tual evolution of mankind. Even if the spiritual view is not consciously embraced, the biological viewpoint, predominant in our age of materialism, should suffice to ward off the inflated notion of a personal acquisition of what are obviously transpersonal characteristics.

We are tempting the enantiodromian fates to challenge our one-sided approach with a rectifying act of nemesis: one that will produce unforeseen hardship. We practice astrology or channel the creative muse or communicate with the uncon*scious simply because it is the thing to do–in the same spirit of joy that a child plays a game: a blissful spirit of timeless wonder. To play this game for gain will always exact its price. In the words of the I Ching–which I have here opened at random: Any deliberate intention of an effect would only destroy the possibility of producing it.

Source : http://www.dominantstar.com

(for the calculation method go to FAQ)
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  #19  
Unread 08-06-2018, 08:48 PM
MiaMiaMia MiaMiaMia is offline
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His most powerful Sign, Planet, House (astrowin)

The numbers in the attachment were obtained using astrowin and focus on his most powerful Sign, Planet, House according to that system.

Here we have the Sign of Virgo dominating. I find it quite interesting, and wonder if it influenced his interest in refining his skills, wether acting or as a musician.
The 5th house is also strong, not surprising for an entertainer.
And the strongest planet is the Sun. I wonder if one can see it as his father´s influence, or his famous persona.


Sagittarius, the 7th house and Venus (surprisingly) are the weakest of the bunch...
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