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  #426  
Unread 04-29-2012, 04:44 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

The ratings can be useful as a ballpark quality indicator.

Be sure to read the source notes in the entries too, worth checking so you can make your own calls.

AA charts can be wrong and DD charts can be right.

When you have some experience reading charts, you'll find clues that will allow you to make better judgements about the time quality, and perhaps even do some rectification.

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  #427  
Unread 04-29-2012, 05:58 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

maemae's example.

maemae's comments on this person :
"this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life. as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District. His father committed suicide when he was 13 years old.
he has spent 3 separate terms in prison, a total of 16 years combined.
for past 5 years, he has been well employed, is buying his home and has found the institution of "hard work" with a very large construction firm, to be quite satisfactory. he has a 401k, savings and promotion opportunities.
he has not been involved in criminal activity since his last release from prison, other than he still "chips" at his drug of choice.
he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself.
~ anyway ~ it would be interesting to see practical application of this discussion...
"

i am reading the chart using whole-sign houses..

saturn in pisces in the 2nd rules the 12th house and ascendant.. saturn is in opposition to uranus/mars/pluto and the opposition squares onto moon in sag in the 11th - all relatively close by degree.. mars in opposition to saturn is always a challenging opposition, but one capable of much too if a person can get there **** together.. the analogy i was told a long time ago is someone driving with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake.. the mars opp saturn can produce a high degree of frustration, difficulties with authority figures, usually but not always with men and father type figures.. in the signs pisces/virgo this energy is more likely to come out in the work place, via some subconscious manner/mood that sets a person back until they recognize what they are doing emotionally while learning how to change thru greater consciousness. meditation strikes me as saturn in pisces.. this chart we have saturn in the 12th sign and ruling the 12th house, so a cross over of sorts..

maemae quote "as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District." mars rules the 3rd house with mercury and mars in mutual reception in this chart which on the one hand would suggest a strengthening of the energies implied by the planets, but offset strongly by the saturn in opposition to mars here as i understand it. moon and mercury in fire signs trine one another suggests a more hyperactive mind well suited to physical action which sitting in school doesn't foster so much.. the moon in hard aspect to mars would emphasize/force this need out into the open even more.."special needs".. i'd go with the moon position in the hard aspect pattern again to fill this description astrologically.

on a wider level people born in the mid 60's were born into a cultural atmosphere when major historical changes where taking place, especially in the states.. the larger planetary cycles at work are uranus/pluto conjunction in virgo opposite saturn in pisces. vietman, martin luther king, nixon, black panther, riots, segregation, and much more. this was a volatile time culturally which i see reflected in these large outer planet cycles in focus. this person has the personal planets mars square moon caught up in this generational configuration..

i see pluto/saturn opp as having a lot to do with hardship especially when it connects to the inner planets in hard aspect, as it does in this chart.. saturn ruling the 12th house/ascendant would add to the heavy weight of these aspect relationships to the moon, mars, uranus and pluto.. that he spent 16 years in prison- i don't know the date of his first incarceration, but it would be interesting astrologically to know, seems to be confirmed by these patterns which i believe would have been more active by transit and directions at the time of his incarceration.

the timing for his fathers suicide at approx 13 years of age (suicide is a pluto/saturn in hard aspect theme) coincides with solar arc mars/pluto opposite natal venus ruler of his 4th house cusp.. solar arc midheaven squares natal mars in the 8th directly.. mars is ruler of the midheaven in this chart.

neptune in scorpio squaring onto the ascendant and most elevated planet in the chart would astrologically characterize maemae's description "this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life." usually i think of neptune/mars hard aspects for drinking, but mars/saturn hard aspects can do this too.. the emotional frustration implied by the t square with this opposition on the bottom would seek any type of medication to try to alleviate the pain and angst i would associate with these planets in hard aspect.. moon rules the 6th in this chart and i wonder how well he has faired as a result of the hard living from the first part of his life up until this turn around 5 years ago..

approx 5 years ago saturn would be making the move into the upper part of the chart by transit which is often a time of greater involvement in society with the assumption of greater responsibility that goes with the involvement. this would also be uranus opposite uranus transit that some associate with mid-life crisis.. for this person, uranus re-emphasizes the t square which it is a part of, but takes a different tack turning his life upside down in a good way by the sounds of it. it is especially interesting if you think of uranus as having some special relationship to aquarius, the ascendant.. either way, saturn moving up in the chart into the 7th would also suggest a greater level of maturity in this persons approach as represented by the rising sign aquarius. solar arc sun squares onto the ascendant degree for 2007 - 5 years ago, and seems to support this persons emergence out of a difficult first part of life hopefully into a much sunnier and brighter later part..


for me a chart read is about the whole chart and while some of the 12th house themes are clearly captured in this persons chart, i think a good chunk of them can be left at the door of the aspect pattern mentioned at the beginning with saturn in pisces included in that pattern. just how one separates 12th house issues from 12th sign issues is something i have constantly struggled with.. although houses aren't the same as signs, i see lots in common.. although planets aren't signs or houses, a saturn in difficult aspect as in this chart makes me think some of 12th house/sign type issues too.. what happens to a life when one doesn't adopt a responsible attitude towards what it is they are involved in? it is downhill towards the 12th, or not being able to get from out underneath which is my way of seeing parallels in all the symbolism touched on here..
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  #428  
Unread 04-29-2012, 05:15 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

i was just surprised to read that actor wesley snipes was sent to fed. prison in 2008 for tax evasion, violation. serving a three year sentence.
it would be interesting to see what his 12th house looks like. also discovered ~ he has 3 or 4 black belts in various martial arts.
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  #429  
Unread 04-30-2012, 03:03 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I'm getting some great feedback on my 12th house interpretation thread!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=49389

Greybeard, I sent you a pm and was hoping you may want to contribute. ~ Thank you for your contribution!

JUPITERASC, I was hoping that you may want to add your thoughts as well! ~ Thanks for your addition!

Dr Farr, I just sent you a pm and hope you may consider. ~ Thanks for the information!

I assure you, this is a good natured thread and I'm not looking to discredit anyone's methods.

I'm hoping to reply to the thread soon because responses are piling up! However, I'm hoping that the two of you might consider posting!

Thanks!

Last edited by StillOne; 05-05-2012 at 03:52 AM.
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  #430  
Unread 05-01-2012, 01:49 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
i was just surprised to read that actor wesley snipes was sent to fed. prison in 2008 for tax evasion, violation. serving a three year sentence.
it would be interesting to see what his 12th house looks like. also discovered ~ he has 3 or 4 black belts in various martial arts.
Online sources don't seem to have an Ascendant for Snipes. Seems odd... He was born in '62, so I would think Florida would have time of birth for him. I'd love to see his actual chart.
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  #431  
Unread 05-02-2012, 06:19 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Many leaders have prominent 12th houses - Tony Blair, George W Bush, President Obama, Vladimir Putin, Ariel Sharon, Gordon Brown (5 planets in 12th), etc

"STANFORD GRADUATE SCHOOL OF BUSINESS — New research reveals an unexpected sign of leadership potential: the tendency to feel guilty. “Guilt-prone people tend to carry a strong sense of responsibility to others, and that responsibility makes other people see them as leaders,”says Becky Schaumberg, a doctoral candidate in organizational behavior who conducted the research with Francis Flynn, the Paul E. Holden Professor of Organizational Behavior. ....Even in this real-world setting, a strong link emerged between a participant’s guilt-proneness as measured in the personality test and the extent to which others saw the person as a leader.

...If these results seem counterintuitive, it’s because we usually think of guilt as a negative emotion ...Schaumberg first began investigating a possible link between guilt and leadership when she noticed that driven, hard-working people often mentioned guilt as a motivator."

http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/res...ilt-flynn.html



"Dane Rudhyar once explained to me that the twelfth house is the one house that represents not just the unconscious, but the essential person who is not taking his identity from relationships or family, career or friends. He speculated that perhaps the negative interpretation of the 12th house came during the middle ages from the fact that being true to yourself and to your own beliefs could get you burned at the stake or imprisoned if you did not conform to church and state.

The first house is concerned with the appearance of the individual, his persona, whereas the twelfth is the real inner person not defined by family, relationships or career. If the first house and the twelfth are in conflict, then real pathology can be the result. One significant trait of the persons born with Sun in the 12th is that they are not easily influenced by other people and will stay committed to their own convictions.

...We have had several Presidents born with Sun in the 12th house, including Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, and Jimmy Carter. " http://www.weathersage.com/vs/mcevoy/12thhouse.htm

Yay!!!

That is exactly what I experienced - society's brainwashing of me regarding what to value - not being true to yourself - is what causes all the problems in the first place. The blind pursuit of materialism and having the "perfect" job/career/marriage/house/children/cars/etc is just not what its all about for everyone. No wonder you feel "sorrow" and want "seclusion" from this society. Fortunately we now live in times when individuality and being true to yourself is more and more acceptable.

Last edited by Carris; 05-02-2012 at 06:40 AM.
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  #432  
Unread 05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Nothing about 12th house, just my personal views....I hate politicians...To me, they are all Liars, Blood Suckers whom start wars and ignored hunger of their people....They live luxurious life with great power and people give them respect despite of them killing many people by signing a few papers for their army. They can give beautiful speeches and inspired people but Never, Never use their own two hands (get their own hands dirty) to do any practical things to care for the sick and disadvantage people. I never believe in those people...I Never Will.
Yes politicians are like that. But I'm talking about real leaders: Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, Jimmy Carter, Tony Blair, George W Bush, President Obama, Vladimir Putin, Ariel Sharon, Gordon Brown, etc. Honest, upright, honorable people who really care about their country, have a strong sense of responsibility. Jimmy Carter really personifies the 12th house leader who serves people. Also Mahatma Gandhi who had sun in the 12th. George Washington had saturn in 12th. Theodore Roosevelt had jupiter in 12th. Nelson Mandela has moon in the 12th. Maybe that is why they have been so selfless is serving their people.

These were real leaders who really cared about their country and their people.

What I'm trying to say is that everything, every house, every planet, every aspect, every degree can be played in a positive or negative way - the individual has free will on how he will conduct his life. We cannot say that any one thing is bad or good. Since there are so many millions of permutations and combinations possible in astrology - we really cannot pinpoint any one thing which is positive or negative without proper, rigourous, scientific, statistical research. So its not fair to point a finger at anything.

Last edited by Carris; 05-02-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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  #433  
Unread 05-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Not trying to negate your findings about the 12th house Suns, but Astro Databank has Lincoln's Sun at 23 Aquarius, with Ascendant 22 Aquarius, so Sun in 1st; his Moon was in the 12th by Placidus method. With a back woods birth, it's probably impossible to know the time; Rodden gives it a B rating.

Rodden rates Ariel Sharon's chart an XX; date in question.

Putin's birth chart gets a C rating by Rodden.... And as an ex-KGB agent and exec, probably not the most honorable person around. Just MO.

US Grant, GW Bush, Jimmy Carter and Tony Blair all get an A or AA rating, so they're probably good on your list. Didn't look up the others. Grant, by the way, was a better general than president.

You may have something there, but I'd say do more research on it!
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  #434  
Unread 05-02-2012, 03:48 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Not trying to negate your findings about the 12th house Suns, but Astro Databank has Lincoln's Sun at 23 Aquarius, with Ascendant 22 Aquarius, so Sun in 1st; his Moon was in the 12th by Placidus method. With a back woods birth, it's probably impossible to know the time; Rodden gives it a B rating.

Rodden rates Ariel Sharon's chart an XX; date in question.

Putin's birth chart gets a C rating by Rodden.... And as an ex-KGB agent and exec, probably not the most honorable person around. Just MO.

US Grant, GW Bush, Jimmy Carter and Tony Blair all get an A or AA rating, so they're probably good on your list. Didn't look up the others. Grant, by the way, was a better general than president.

You may have something there, but I'd say do more research on it!
Judy

I took that from this website: "Abraham Lincoln was born as the Sun rose, as recorded in his aunt's journal, and his balsamic Capricorn Moon was also in the 12th. Lincoln was a deeply reflective man, largely self educated, and his interest in the occult was well known in his lifetime. But the charm and personal power of the man was also marked at an early age."

Regarding Putin: "His quiet, self-effacing manner is typical of the 12th house approach, but he also has Pluto in Leo conjunct the South Node of the Moon exactly on the Midheaven of his chart. He came to public attention with his quick response in quashing the rebellion in Chechnya following the breakup of the Soviet Union. He became popular because he has taken a tough line, and he envisions a more modern, up-to-date Russia which can once more become a world power. "

"Sharon was born with Sun in Pisces and retrograding Mercury nearby, and he is known as "the warrior" for his hawkish tendencies. He has Uranus conjunct Jupiter in Aries also in the 12th, which may explain why he does not display the accepted Piscean characteristics of compassion, empathy, sympathy and humanity. Nevertheless he is an example of a 12th house Sun. " http://www.weathersage.com/vs/mcevoy/12thhouse.htm

I also wrote this:

Jimmy Carter really personifies the 12th house leader who serves people. Also Mahatma Gandhi who had sun in the 12th. George Washington had saturn in 12th. Theodore Roosevelt had jupiter in 12th. Nelson Mandela has moon in the 12th. Maybe that is why they have been so selfless is serving their people.

These were real leaders who really cared about their country and their people.

What I'm trying to say is that everything, every house, every planet, every aspect, every degree can be played in a positive or negative way - the individual has free will on how he will conduct his life. We cannot say that any one thing is bad or good. Since there are so many millions of permutations and combinations possible in astrology - we really cannot pinpoint any one thing which is positive or negative without proper, rigourous, scientific, statistical research. So its not fair to point a finger at anything.

What I'm trying to say is: the 12th cannot be connected with seclusion and isolation since so many leaders have 12th placements. Then many professions can be considered as being isolated and secluded or imprisoned away from the world. Even a CEO would feel trapped by his responsibility. Most of us at some point in life feel trapped in some situation - a relationship, marriage, job, raising children etc. Is there any person who hasn't felt sorrow and suffering? So many people are not "in touch with their feelings" and want to escape from the truth and reality, maintain a false facade to "keep up with the joneses". There are so may problems in the world. Does every person who starves in somalia have a prominent 12th?

Last edited by Carris; 05-02-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  #435  
Unread 05-02-2012, 05:52 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post

What I'm trying to say is that everything, every house, every planet, every aspect, every degree can be played in a positive or negative way - the individual has free will on how he will conduct his life. We cannot say that any one thing is bad or good. Since there are so many millions of permutations and combinations possible in astrology - we really cannot pinpoint any one thing which is positive or negative without proper, rigourous, scientific, statistical research. So its not fair to point a finger at anything.

What I'm trying to say is: the 12th cannot be connected with seclusion and isolation since so many leaders have 12th placements. Then many professions can be considered as being isolated and secluded or imprisoned away from the world. Even a CEO would feel trapped by his responsibility. Most of us at some point in life feel trapped in some situation - a relationship, marriage, job, raising children etc. Is there any person who hasn't felt sorrow and suffering? So many people are not "in touch with their feelings" and want to escape from the truth and reality, maintain a false facade to "keep up with the joneses". There are so may problems in the world. Does every person who starves in somalia have a prominent 12th?
On this part of your post to me, you're preaching to the choir!

Your idea about 12th house Suns is worth some scientific research. I just wonder if that's possible with a few of the charts you mentioned where the data might not be accurate. That's all.
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  #436  
Unread 05-02-2012, 09:33 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

greybeard,

i think it would be a good thing to start off not having many preconceived ideas . i also think it's a great idea to simplify and see what you can do without.. the fact there are 2 different zodiacs in use ought to encourage a person to keep their mind open to where an energy might be coming from too.. houses - same thing.. when it comes right down to it for me - astrology is an interpretive art.. no one will know the nature of the person or the experiences that connect with the astrology as well as the person who the chart belongs to.. astrology is an amazing language which can communicate much, but then their is something beyond the scope of astrology too..some might want to lump that into the 12th house, but i am not so sure..

waybread

thanks for articularing a good overview on a process that everyone has to go thru if they want to really know astrology.. is it a moon in sag or a moon in cap? is it a cap moon conjunct jupiter or a moon in sag aspecting saturn giving a similar energy? and etc. etc.. the complexities are rampant in spite of our desire and need to keep things simple..

i recall asking my mom when i was born and the time she gave me had sag rising.. it seemed to fit for a few years and then i got to thinking maybe it wasn't quite right.. 25$ got me the birth time from the hospital with scorpio rising.. i still had jupiter at the top of a t square in the 9th which shares a lot with sag, but i was now a scorpio rising.. only after watching transits and directions to the ascendant degree was i able to ascertain what was what.. in order to do this means one has to go deeper into astrology and as i said before - it takes time. start with a hospital record and work out from that point.. take your time and don't expect to get instant answers..

thanks for both of your comments..
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  #437  
Unread 05-05-2012, 02:05 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I found a link about 12th house from Vedic astrology's point of views.
http://www.soothsayers-india.com/Ved...Horoscope.html

"12th signifies both confinement and release. Confinement can be in many ways. For example one may be confined in a jail, hospital, house arrest, Lunatic asylum, an ashram, or to a cave in the mountains etc.

Release is interpretive in the sense that a person passes away from this body and is released into space before being confined to another physical body.

Since 12th signifies release, shifting from one house to another, transfer from on place to another come under this house."


I think my previous reply did mention this idea of ascendant the first breathe of life and life into the physical body therefore 12th representing the end of the physical life but few people in this thread not accepting this idea....Apparently there are some traditional astrologists thinking the same....So here is my reference.

Another link describes some interesting points about the extreme meanings of 12th "Saint or Sinner"
http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/jo...he-12th-house/

"A person with a strong 12th House is a very spiritual creature, as he must be. Either that, or he will fall in to addictions."

"The 8th House rules underground emotions and passions. The 12th House is the doorway to the next dimension. It rules the womb, as it is the dimension before life. It rules the after life, although the event of death is ruled by the 8th House. "


Some people also suggest that 12th house represents the type of weaknesses in this physical body of this lifetime...I think that can be true since my 12th house cusp is Leo ruled by Sun and I do have congenital heart problem, although no planet is there, Sun in my 3rd house conjunct 3rd house Mercury and 2nd Saturn combining with Pluto in 2nd are together Scorpio Stellium; Sun, Saturn sextile AC Virgo and Mercury Quintile AC while Pluto is semi-sextile...

I really do think you HAVE to look at the whole chart and the ruler to define 12th house with or without planets in the 12th house. Otherwise...looking at 12th house alone is too superficial...lack of juice lol

http://www.horoscoper.net/health/houses-health.htm

"Aries head, brain
Taurus neck, throat, ears, nose, teeth, hearing
Gemini lungs, speech, smell
Cancer skin
Leo heart, blood
Virgo food intake intestines
Libra food processing intestines, excrement
Scorpio genitals, hormones
Sagittarius eyes
Capricorn bones, spine
Aquarius arms, legs
Pisces nerves"
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Last edited by poyi; 05-05-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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  #438  
Unread 05-05-2012, 09:30 PM
lilly02 lilly02 is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

I found an article of DonMcBromm " Assessing the 12th house".
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/070228.html
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  #439  
Unread 05-06-2012, 10:43 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I tried various natal charts on Astrodienst. I used "the Astrodienst with Arabic Parts" and discovered myself have Parts of Victory in 12th house while the ruler of 12th house Sun (Mercury rules Sun because of Sun being in 3rd house), Parts of Spirit is between Sun and Mercury so conjunct both planets.

Anyone has any idea how Arabic parts mean in interpretation of the inner meaning of the chart? And here we talk about 12th house. Parts of Victory also is known as Lots of Mars which represents the area/house where native easily finds victory. These Arabic parts, do they mean anything in a natal chart interpretation or totally irrelevant?
"The Jupiter Part: Part of Victory. The manner in which we can overcome our limitations and fulfill this potential to the maximum; the area of life where Grace drops into our lives."

"The Sun Part: Part of Spirit. The area of life in which we can enjoy abundance and where we have the Divine marriage of soul and spirit; this can assist us in mastering the self."

http://www.traditionalastrologer.co....the-soul-chart


Thanks
Here is my chart with Arabic parts...
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?c...rbp=&rs=0&ast=
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Last edited by poyi; 05-06-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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  #440  
Unread 05-06-2012, 08:13 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
...
"12th signifies both confinement and release....
Yes...yes, indeed.
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  #441  
Unread 05-07-2012, 06:39 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I just wonder whether the celebrities or important people mentioned in this thread have their "supposed" natal planets (in the 12th house) on the same sign as their AC. If that be the case, then that means that in actuality, the natal planets are in the 1st house, but over-the-horizon (earth); that is assuming one used the 'whole signs' house format.
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  #442  
Unread 05-07-2012, 09:09 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Well then, I suppose that the house position depends on the house system chosen by the astrologer. And that choice, while it may have an empirical basis, is ultimately subjective. You apparently prefer to use whole-sign houses; this means that the sign preceding the ascending sign is the twelfth house, in your system. Where is the problem in this?

It is no different than choosing to use the sidereal or the tropical zodiac. As long as the system you choose yields reliable results, use it. There is no conflict here.

Astrology is a creation of man's mind. It is a system of thought. It is flexible and adapts itself to the mind of each astrologer. As far as I know, Vedic astrology works equally as well as Western, and vice versa, even thought the philosophies, objectives, methods of the two systems are quite different.

Last edited by greybeard; 05-07-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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  #443  
Unread 05-08-2012, 01:07 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Well then, I suppose that the house position depends on the house system chosen by the astrologer. And that choice, while it may have an empirical basis, is ultimately subjective. You apparently prefer to use whole-sign houses; this means that the sign preceding the ascending sign is the twelfth house, in your system. Where is the problem in this?

It is no different than choosing to use the sidereal or the tropical zodiac. As long as the system you choose yields reliable results, use it. There is no conflict here.

Astrology is a creation of man's mind. It is a system of thought. It is flexible and adapts itself to the mind of each astrologer. As far as I know, Vedic astrology works equally as well as Western, and vice versa, even thought the philosophies, objectives, methods of the two systems are quite different.
That is why I said "assuming one used the 'whole sign' house format". I suppose my opinion is bias, but tell me when no one else's isn't. Whole signs has worked for me, and is in my opinion, more consistent than the other house formats. Of course all this is again, my opinion. Nothing factual or set in stone.
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Last edited by SniperBomber328; 05-11-2012 at 09:26 PM.
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  #444  
Unread 09-04-2012, 11:17 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

LOVE this! It's the logic people are failing to see. In everything really. I just don't get how people don't get this. The 12th house provides us with answers to ego related issues I believe (may be even all answers eventually). It's a scary house for people who Want. People who are always craving More. Yes, I have to admit, in a wordly sense, I am probably failing (in many peoples eyes that is). But I feel my 12th house and know that this will become progressively important in my life. When I think about it I do still become scared sometimes, as I have read all the horror scenario's too... However, Why would someone rational (capricorn planets everywhere ) like me, be inspired by such a house if there is no other meaning that 'insanity' or 'illusion' 'darkness' and what not else I have read about it. Just have to add to this: Up untill two years ago I believed all this to be fairytales (blush

Pluto did the job for me, is still doing it, and I'm starting to love this littlebigone

Jenn



Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
Hello Carris,

I am very pleased to see that a recent thread has been created to specifically address issues concerning the twelfth house. It is a subject that I had intended to revive after doing a little more research to corroborate my theories, but, since you’ve done the honor, I’ll share my ideas here as I confirm them.

As an individual with two significant twelfth house placements (Sun and Venus), I become disillusioned and even frustrated with astrologers who paint dreary images upon the walls of this house. It is not a house of sorrow, enemies, or imprisonment. Such attributions are only projections of the fears of those who make them.

Theoretically this house should be one of potential and capacity, for its position above the Asc marks daybreak and the emergence of the Sun, signifying illumination. It is revelation and not concealment. How anyone could consider this sorrowful is beyond me, but I suppose many of the astrologers who espouse such beliefs have no significant placements here.

If we are to use the traditional meanings of the houses, and if the twelfth is taken to be antithetical to the sixth, then we can assert that the twelfth house encompasses all things outside of daily routine and mundane existence. It is ‘stepping behind the veil’, if you will. It is the realization that we are souls who possess bodies and not bodies who possess souls.
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  #445  
Unread 09-04-2012, 11:23 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Just to add to the EGO and worldy related stuff discussion:

Even here you can see it. The larger part of this community is dealing with issues like: How can I get pregnant, Is this the right man for Me etcetera etcetera.

In reality. These questions do not matter at all. I also started looking into astrology because of a man. I thank him now. For opening my eyes

Jenn
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  #446  
Unread 09-04-2012, 02:08 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Body, soul....

We are not a body which possesses a soul. Nor are we a soul who possesses a body. There is no edict from on high that says it must be one or the other.

What do you mean by the term soul anyway? What is this soul you speak of?

May I suggest that body and soul do not exist independently of each other? Our "worldly, mundane" experiences impact our soul growth very deeply. If our mundane experiences hold no importance, then why did the divine hand put us in bodies? Why did Jesus say, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."? Does our physical existence and its products count for nothing?

I will get personal here. I am an old man. I am coming to the end of time here, the end of my path. Throughout my life I have set goals or objectives for myself. These objectives have changed over time, according to my understanding. My present and final objective in life is to become Love Itself. Not to be loved, or to love, but to become love embodied or personified. But how can I judge my progress except in the crucible of physical existence? I MUST produce fruits of love. Empty words, talk of the soul, is nothing if there are no fruits to verify, to substantiate the formless and bodiless soul. Love is what we do, not what we say. The Twelfth House is about Liberation from Bondage, and we ourselves forged the chains that bind us.

The traditional meanings of the Twelfth include not only all those dire things, but it is also the house of assistance from unseen or unexpected quarters. It is a house of intercession.

If we take the body, and events which involve the body, we find the Twelfth House involved in suicide, rape, abduction, assasination, institutionalization (imprisonment, hospitalization, etc.), illness.... To say that "these things do not matter at all" misses the point of why they do happen at all.

Why do we love life so? Why do we resist death, flee from it? If we are nothing but "soul", wouldn't it be better to fall on our sword today and leave this meaningless body to the worms?
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Unread 09-04-2012, 03:04 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Interesting!
I don't know what we are. To be honest.
The term soul is a vague one. May be it just means a code. And may be the body is just a vessel that carries that code in order to achieve something. Something. Who is to say what that is? If we can agree on planets having so much influence on everything we do, that who is to say we have any control at all? It's the idea of control we have, we need, we crave. It's where religion comes from, where everything worldly (or cultural if you will) comes from.

I am also very fascinated by the phase that you are in compared to where I am (hopefully I'll be sticking around for some time
Let me get personal too (I like that
I am 28 years old. Have not believed in ANYTHING up to about two years ago, until I started feeling stuff (other long story, still in the middle of it). But way before that, I already encountered, or felt stuff. And... I have always said that I can't do stuff for myself. That I want to change the world. I can never explain to people who I am, because it changes wherever I go. I have no hobbies, but love everything as long as someone can be passionate about it. I understand everyone. I mean... Everyone. I always 'defend' (not the right word) people. I have no actual life goals. I am. I am going to live my life as it comes in my head (or heart, soul?). Have always done that and it has led me to see people separate from their culture. No matter how much they posess of it.

All meanings to all planets, houses to EVERYTHING was created by humans. There is no alphabet in space. It is a limited medium and has been divided, classified, altered in so many ways. In the end there is no one reality I think.

Jenn


Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Body, soul....

We are not a body which possesses a soul. Nor are we a soul who possesses a body. There is no edict from on high that says it must be one or the other.

What do you mean by the term soul anyway? What is this soul you speak of?

May I suggest that body and soul do not exist independently of each other? Our "worldly, mundane" experiences impact our soul growth very deeply. If our mundane experiences hold no importance, then why did the divine hand put us in bodies? Why did Jesus say, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."? Does our physical existence and its products count for nothing?

I will get personal here. I am an old man. I am coming to the end of time here, the end of my path. Throughout my life I have set goals or objectives for myself. These objectives have changed over time, according to my understanding. My present and final objective in life is to become Love Itself. Not to be loved, or to love, but to become love embodied or personified. But how can I judge my progress except in the crucible of physical existence? I MUST produce fruits of love. Empty words, talk of the soul, is nothing if there are no fruits to verify, to substantiate the formless and bodiless soul. Love is what we do, not what we say. The Twelfth House is about Liberation from Bondage, and we ourselves forged the chains that bind us.

The traditional meanings of the Twelfth include not only all those dire things, but it is also the house of assistance from unseen or unexpected quarters. It is a house of intercession.

If we take the body, and events which involve the body, we find the Twelfth House involved in suicide, rape, abduction, assasination, institutionalization (imprisonment, hospitalization, etc.), illness.... To say that "these things do not matter at all" misses the point of why they do happen at all.

Why do we love life so? Why do we resist death, flee from it? If we are nothing but "soul", wouldn't it be better to fall on our sword today and leave this meaningless body to the worms?
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  #448  
Unread 09-04-2012, 03:19 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Why do we love life so? Why do we resist death, flee from it? If we are nothing but "soul", wouldn't it be better to fall on our sword today and leave this meaningless body to the worms?[/QUOTE]

And about this... My view. Another part of the code. Mainly ego why we resist death. Life makes us scared of death, which is in the end nothing more that resetteling into the original state with some added karmic luggage. I also believe we reincarnate, but again, this is a cultural concept, so interpreting what that excactly is, is impossible. I know the words don't really make sense all the time. I am 28 and very underexperienced. Have had a little bit of everything I guess. Work in progress.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 04:30 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Why do we love life so?
Because life is transient, a rare opportunity... transience gives life value
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Why do we resist death, flee from it?
Instinct
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
If we are nothing but "soul", wouldn't it be better to fall on our sword today and leave this meaningless body to the worms?
That would mean an already transient life ends more swiftly than necessary

There are alternatives to having one's body consumed by worms e.g. cremation, or a burial at sea, or a burial beneath a tree and in death joining with like minded beings in contributing to the creation of a wood or forest
...
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  #450  
Unread 10-17-2013, 11:20 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

What about impact of transits. I am Sco ascendant and currently Saturn and Rahu are transiting 12th house. My natal Ketu is in 12th house. I am passing through a very bad phase of my life since Feb 2013.
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