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  #1  
Unread 09-21-2011, 01:49 PM
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Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable??

Countdown to executing Troy Davis has entered the final hours. A campaign to spare his life drew support from former US president Jimmy Carter and Pope Benedict XVI, helping him escape three previous dates with death in a racially-charged case. There was no physical evidence tying Davis, then 20, to the shooting and several witnesses at his trial later recanted their testimony. In the letter made public by Amnesty International USA, Davis insisted the campaign continues saying: "This struggle is for all the Troy Davises who came before me and all the ones who will come after me. I'm in good spirits and I'm prayerful and at peace. But I will not stop fighting until I've taken my last breath." Davis didn't want a last meal. He planned to spend his final hours meeting with friends, family and supporters. According to an advocate who met with him late Tuesday, he was upbeat, prayerful and expected last-minute wrangling by attorneys.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...ution-14569626

It is an all too familiar story. Three teens found themselves sentenced to life for three murders they were innocent of but then spent eighteen years on death row, under threat of lethal injection.

CBS has a video of their story - The West Memphis 3: Free (they were reprieved) at http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...g;mostpopvideo

for Troy Davis however, time 'is running out' despite strong evidence that Troy Davis is innocent http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...nna-glover.cnn

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/audi...ing?intcmp=239

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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 09-21-2011 at 11:58 PM.
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Unread 09-21-2011, 04:38 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

No, it isn't. Ever.
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  #3  
Unread 09-21-2011, 05:18 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

-----------------------------
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Last edited by ImNotThere9; 09-22-2011 at 12:54 PM.
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Unread 09-21-2011, 06:22 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

To echo tsmall, below: NO. Not EVER. And any attempt to finagle some kind of sophisticated justification or rationale for it is the height of human arrogance and hubris. End of story.

Love to all.
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  #5  
Unread 09-21-2011, 08:36 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

"I have come to the conclusion that executions solve nothing,and are only an antiquated relic of a primative desire for revenge which takes the easy way out and hands over the responsibility to the people....The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody,but everybody differed about who should get it."

Albert Pierrepoint.

Voluntary Euthanasia,I feel should be available for people.

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  #6  
Unread 09-22-2011, 05:38 AM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

I join with the "NO" opinions, posted above.
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  #7  
Unread 09-22-2011, 06:21 AM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Countdown to executing Troy Davis has entered the final hours. A campaign to spare his life drew support from former US president Jimmy Carter and Pope Benedict XVI, helping him escape three previous dates with death in a racially-charged case. There was no physical evidence tying Davis, then 20, to the shooting and several witnesses at his trial later recanted their testimony. In the letter made public by Amnesty International USA, Davis insisted the campaign continues saying: "This struggle is for all the Troy Davises who came before me and all the ones who will come after me. I'm in good spirits and I'm prayerful and at peace. But I will not stop fighting until I've taken my last breath." Davis didn't want a last meal. He planned to spend his final hours meeting with friends, family and supporters. According to an advocate who met with him late Tuesday, he was upbeat, prayerful and expected last-minute wrangling by attorneys.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...ution-14569626

It is an all too familiar story. Three teens found themselves sentenced to life for three murders they were innocent of but then spent eighteen years on death row, under threat of lethal injection.

CBS has a video of their story - The West Memphis 3: Free (they were reprieved) at http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...g;mostpopvideo

for Troy Davis however, time 'is running out' despite strong evidence that Troy Davis is innocent http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...nna-glover.cnn

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/audi...ing?intcmp=239

problem with 7 ppl retrieving their testimonies didnt show up to appeal to be cross examined

that is the only thing..

T
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Unread 09-22-2011, 10:29 AM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Troy Davis was lethally injected at Georgia Diagnostic and Classification Prison in Jackson. His last moments were described by local radio journalist John Lewis, who witnessed the event. Mr Lewis said: "He was strapped to the gurney when we walked in and, when the warden asked if he had to make a statement, he lifted his head up and looked directly at the front row, right where the MacPhail family and friends were sitting. "He said that he did not have a gun. He said that he was not the one who took their son, father, brother and he said he was innocent." The journalist added that the MacPhail family "hugged somebody" after the death and "seemed to smile about it". "For the MacPhail family at least, they seemed to get some satisfaction from what happened," he added.

CNN report says "Davis said the case merited further investigation, talking fast as officials prepared to give him the lethal cocktail"
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/22/ju...html?hpt=hp_t1

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...hman-davis.cnn
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 09-22-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 09-24-2011, 07:35 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

when there is doubt its never right at all
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  #10  
Unread 09-24-2011, 08:07 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

I have two persuasions about this one. Firstly, the intentional killing of an human is never the right course of action. Secondly, if you're going to execute someone, quit being a p**** about it and just shoot him in the head. A "lethal injection" for the state of Georgia costs about $450 per "dose" and an elaborate system of application involving many people (some of whom get paid for this). If you're going to make yourself a murderer, don't pretend you're being humane. If you were really humane, you would be rehabilitating that guy instead of killing him. So, just shoot him in the head already. At least we wouldn't have to wonder whether or not he regained consciousness and remained paralysed while he slowly died. Humane my ***.
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  #11  
Unread 09-27-2011, 10:43 AM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

i am with Cap on that ... Killing in self defence is not wrong.. killing while defending someone or something is not wrong either

T
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  #12  
Unread 09-27-2011, 05:07 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Tikana, Caprising, with great respect and with clear understanding of where you're coming from, I must still differ. However, I can say I do have one small context in which I'll modify my stance, but only slightly. And that would be with regard to a situation of self-defense or defense of someone helpless -- with a very important differentiation based on *intention*. I myself would never touch a gun for any reason...however, if someone were in a position of mortal danger from someone, or they were striving to protect someone else in that position, and I or they had some type of weapon, and/or felt they could utilize their body in some way *to protect without intending to kill*.....to disable/disarm/make impossible the attack...and in the course of doing so, unintentionally *did* kill the attacker...that, to me, would be a valid exception.

Let me explain something, too, so you understand where *I'm* coming from. This is very personal, of course, but worth sharing to convey my point.

In 1994 I was brutally raped and beaten. My attacker was known to me, a new friend I'd thought, and we were in a wilderness area. I was attracted to him, and thought the feeling was mutual. However, soon as we began kissing, I quickly empathically realized this wasn't the case; that some violent pathology existed within him toward women, and he intended to act it out on my body. Of course, "no" from me did nothing, and his attack included him doing his best to kill me by choking me on himself. (Sorry for the detail; it's included for a reason.) I passed out and woke up choking in a pile of vomit, with him long gone.

A few weeks later a friend of mine who's psychic asked if I wanted to know the backstory to this whole nightmare. She told me that it sourced from a past life in Rome, in which my attacker had then been in a very high position of government, and had been sexually abusing his entire family their whole lives. I was male then, and was in love with one of his daughters, who told me what he'd been doing. I knew he'd never be held to account for his atrocities nor stopped at all...so I killed him. I slit his throat.

The PTSD symptoms that resulted from the rape have nearly killed *me,* now, in this life. Apparently my soul and the Divine, in the course of teaching me that murder is *never okay,* did not require *an eye for an eye* in that literal sense, for the karmic balance to be struck, for me to comprehend what my action of murder against him wrought within him and his reality by experiencing something so close to actual death, and *at his hand*... But did it teach me? Oh, yes indeed it did. And I know *for a fact* that had I had a gun that day, or any other deadly weapon, and utilized it and ended his life *once again,* that this cycle would continue to play out....

Don't know if this illustration helps, but it's my reality I felt to share.

Love to everyone...
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Unread 09-27-2011, 05:14 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Woops, addendum here...writing before fully caffeinated LOL.. To bring this full-circle properly: YES, I do feel that even if I'd had a deadly weapon when that rape was beginning, and I'd done my best to disable him with it *with no intention of killing him, just making it impossible for him to continue,* but he DID die as a result...although the karmic-balance process would still continue, the way the consequences/backlash would play out in a 3D lifetime would be somewhat gentler, not quite so severe. However.....if I HAD intended to "kill him justifiably in self-defense," the karmic balance would come back at me at exactly the same level as they did this time around...

Capiche?
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Unread 09-27-2011, 07:45 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

I think the death penalty should be abolished.
I support Amnesty International. I had read about Troy Davis.

However, I have seen recent violence with guns on the streets near my home and realise that if someone has a gun often the only way to 'disable' that person in order to be sure they will not kill another human being is to kill them.

So that is the reason the police get it wrong (on occasions.) when there is a gun they have to react to protect themselves and the public.

with a gun it is so quick, you barely have time to think so you just react.
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Unread 09-27-2011, 10:28 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I think the death penalty should be abolished.
I support Amnesty International. I had read about Troy Davis.

However, I have seen recent violence with guns on the streets near my home and realise that if someone has a gun often the only way to 'disable' that person in order to be sure they will not kill another human being is to kill them.

So that is the reason the police get it wrong (on occasions.) when there is a gun they have to react to protect themselves and the public.

with a gun it is so quick, you barely have time to think so you just react.

there i disagree

Child molestors - death penalty 1st strike.

Regarding Troy Davis, 7 out of 9 ppl took their statements back but during apeals none of them came to court but submitted written statements. i find that a bit suspecious. If i had been a defense attorney i would prove beyond reaonable doubt that my client didnt do the murder.

Casey Anthony is walking free while her daughter is dead. Where is justice for that little girl? Our justice system has problems but we sure have hell of a lot less problems than italian court. Italian court is trying to put a girl for life in prison for murder she didnt commit. that case has more holes than swiss cheese.

eye for an eye works for me
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Last edited by tikana; 09-27-2011 at 10:41 PM.
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Unread 09-27-2011, 10:31 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflash View Post
Tikana, Caprising, with great respect and with clear understanding of where you're coming from, I must still differ. However, I can say I do have one small context in which I'll modify my stance, but only slightly. And that would be with regard to a situation of self-defense or defense of someone helpless -- with a very important differentiation based on *intention*. I myself would never touch a gun for any reason...however, if someone were in a position of mortal danger from someone, or they were striving to protect someone else in that position, and I or they had some type of weapon, and/or felt they could utilize their body in some way *to protect without intending to kill*.....to disable/disarm/make impossible the attack...and in the course of doing so, unintentionally *did* kill the attacker...that, to me, would be a valid exception.

Let me explain something, too, so you understand where *I'm* coming from. This is very personal, of course, but worth sharing to convey my point.

In 1994 I was brutally raped and beaten. My attacker was known to me, a new friend I'd thought, and we were in a wilderness area. I was attracted to him, and thought the feeling was mutual. However, soon as we began kissing, I quickly empathically realized this wasn't the case; that some violent pathology existed within him toward women, and he intended to act it out on my body. Of course, "no" from me did nothing, and his attack included him doing his best to kill me by choking me on himself. (Sorry for the detail; it's included for a reason.) I passed out and woke up choking in a pile of vomit, with him long gone.

A few weeks later a friend of mine who's psychic asked if I wanted to know the backstory to this whole nightmare. She told me that it sourced from a past life in Rome, in which my attacker had then been in a very high position of government, and had been sexually abusing his entire family their whole lives. I was male then, and was in love with one of his daughters, who told me what he'd been doing. I knew he'd never be held to account for his atrocities nor stopped at all...so I killed him. I slit his throat.

The PTSD symptoms that resulted from the rape have nearly killed *me,* now, in this life. Apparently my soul and the Divine, in the course of teaching me that murder is *never okay,* did not require *an eye for an eye* in that literal sense, for the karmic balance to be struck, for me to comprehend what my action of murder against him wrought within him and his reality by experiencing something so close to actual death, and *at his hand*... But did it teach me? Oh, yes indeed it did. And I know *for a fact* that had I had a gun that day, or any other deadly weapon, and utilized it and ended his life *once again,* that this cycle would continue to play out....

Don't know if this illustration helps, but it's my reality I felt to share.

Love to everyone...
if someone did that to me, he would be dead. I am sorry it happened to you but i would have hunted his rear end down.
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  #17  
Unread 10-01-2011, 08:51 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Shadowflash: I'm glad to read your story. Such things are terrible to suffer, of course, but it does my heart good to hear from a victim who has such an understanding of "why." Most victims never reach the point of understanding because the undesirable experiences are so intense that there just doesn't seem to be a reason good enough. Very few ever recover as much as it seems you have. Good work.

General Address: In a karmic context, it doesn't really matter why you kill. Once you kill, you are a killer and you will be visited by a killer's karma. "Self defense" is an human justification for doing something that would otherwise be obviously wrong. We all want the freedom to act selfishly in certain situations (self defense, raising our own children, et cetera), so we create loopholes in the law to allow us to be selfish in these circumstances. Therefore, legality has nothing to do with right or wrong in this context. Karma will work the same way, regardless of human law.

I'll also address the bit about child molesters because it's likely that there are a number of people who would agree with tikana's assertion. Should child molesters be killed for their offenses? Child molestation isn't the kind of thing that's done by an average person on a whim. You might as well kill the child that was molested too. You'll just be killing him later anyway. Who grows up and feels a need to molest children? The children who were molested. Almost every abuser was originally a victim. You would be hard pressed to find even one child molester who was never violated as a child in any fashion.

So, we're back to the old argument: Are offenders patients or criminals? If you treat them as patients, they can get better. If you treat them as criminals, they will always get worse. If you outright killed the offenders, then how could any of them ever learn? And wouldn't that also put blood on your hands? Vengeful killing always makes things worse. Love, caring, and kindness make things better. So, which one should we apply to the problem? The solution that may make things better or the punishment that will definitely make things worse?
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:30 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Shadowflash: I'm glad to read your story. Such things are terrible to suffer, of course, but it does my heart good to hear from a victim who has such an understanding of "why." Most victims never reach the point of understanding because the undesirable experiences are so intense that there just doesn't seem to be a reason good enough. Very few ever recover as much as it seems you have. Good work..... General Address: In a karmic context, it doesn't really matter why you kill. Once you kill, you are a killer and you will be visited by a killer's karma. "Self defense" is an human justification for doing something that would otherwise be obviously wrong. We all want the freedom to act selfishly in certain situations (self defense, raising our own children, et cetera), so we create loopholes in the law to allow us to be selfish in these circumstances. Therefore, legality has nothing to do with right or wrong in this context. Karma will work the same way, regardless of human law.
From an individual point of view, so far as some people think, “acting in self-defense and/or defense of my family and/or property” seems an excellent excuse to have killed someone “as a result of some kind of provocation”

Analysing the idea that extenuating circumstances may absolve murder and/or manslaughter we find these inferences:
1. “Killing people is wrong, except when I am the one doing the killing – I am different, I am special - I have good reasons for killing”
2. “It is wrong for anyone to kill me but it is right for me to kill another person – the law does not apply to me because I have an excuse”
3. “Although I agree in principle that killing people is wrong, I am an exception to that rule because when I kill people it is because they are threatening me and/or my family and/or my possessions and as far as I am concerned, that is sufficient justification for me to kill anyone. I could care less that killing people is considered wrong.
4. “I am justified in killing anyone who threatens me and/or my family and/or my property”

Presumably the person attempting to kill you is following a similar line of reasoning and thinking you are some kind of threat to them, so they are thinking that it is fine for them to kill you - presumably before you kill them. The result obviously is that someone could get killed.

Clearly, if it is wrong for someone to kill you then it is wrong for you to kill them - because killing is either right or wrong and if everyone agreed on this principle then no one would get killed - ever for any reason at all.

However, our societies sanction killing - we pay public executioners to deliberately, in cold blood, using coolly calculated premeditated ways, to kill people who have allegedly themselves killed another person.

We pay people to kill people: some of those people getting killed are innocent. We say to the public executioner, “You are employed by this great nation as the public executioner, so in this case, killing someone is fine, because we write the law and we have said it is fine for you to kill... we may even pay you for killing a convicted “contract killer” ...now, although that may seem hypocritical to you, do not allow the hypocrisy of this nation to deter you from committing the act of depriving another human being of their life ”
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:37 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Thanks, Mark, both for your kind words and for the validating feeling offered by reading another's stance that is identical to my own! Big breath of fresh air for my soul... I'm not sure how well I've recovered; in the sense of growing in consciousness and self-awareness, most definitely, but in other ways...hm. LOL I'm working to heal stage 3C endometrial cancer, which I feel is tied to the rape as well as other childhood abuse issues, and the PTSD still haunts me, some days worse than others... But I can definitely feel that the soulgrowth I've gained via this experience will be sooooo well worth every bit of it all.

And your view on child molesters is also identical with mine. While I empathize so totally with the rage people feel toward them, knowing what abuse does to a child...if we don't choose to rise above that primal reactivity into deeper understanding of why this happens, we'll simply be perpetuating the same cycle, just as you say. My sense is that those few child molesters who were not themselves molested are *frozen in time,* so to speak, within the moments of earliest childhood arousal, combined with being deeply emotionally disturbed on other levels. Whatever the source of their wounding, *patients* they are, indeed, as are all beings who find themselves acting out violently, on any level; and again, until we finally find our higher humanity and bring through brand-new realms of healing for them...find "the angels of our better nature" (as one famous person put it) to offer them...nothing will change...

Thank you again for your post; you've made my day...
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:41 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Thanks for your wise words too, Jupiterasc! I didn't see them at first! I agree wholeheartedly... ;->
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Unread 10-02-2011, 05:15 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Tikana! My apologies. I haven't been meaning to *ignore* your post. Thank you most sincerely for your kind words about this having happened to me.

I just...haven't known how to respond to the rest of it. I don't want to imply judgment of your stance; I do my best to maintain a balance of holding firm within what feels true to me, while at the same time not projecting mine onto anyone else with any kind of "should" energy. Even when speculating how we feel that if "others felt the same, things would be different in the world." I also know that everyone is exactly where they belong, at any given moment, in their life and journey, so...?

One of this Plutonian-up-the-wazoo lifetime focuses for me has been around excavating the causal core of violence, in all its forms, on both macro- and microcosmic levels...and having found these answers for myself, I'm now hugely sensitized to it, especially how its energy is wielded in such casual, offhand ways.

Thank you again, and I wish you well!
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Unread 10-02-2011, 05:22 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Jupiter

4. “I am justified in killing anyone who threatens me and/or my family and/or my property”
Sounds good to me! any intruder walks in - bulliet in the head. Came with a sword - die from a sword


what are you gonna say if you ever meet dr Petit and explain him that death penalty is wrong? EH? if you are not familiar with the case, look into it..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...der-trial.html

putting those 2 ***s in the electric chair is too humane

Shadowflash

i have no problem with guns. Criminals get guns without permits why shouldnt civilians have access to weapons. "Second Amendment to the United States constitution protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militiaand to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. " Going around killing ppl aint my thing but I will use it if i am "forced" to. Karmic sharmick, you have less than 1 sec to decide who dies you or the criminal. I used to think having a gun is a bad idea but after North hollywood shootout which i witnessed 1st hand, i totally changed my opinon on the matter. Youtube North Hollywood shootout... you will see what i saw. Wish you well as well

T
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Last edited by tikana; 10-02-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 10-02-2011, 06:32 PM
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Shadowflash Shadowflash is offline
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

I understand your position, Tikana, and no, I'm sure you're not someone who "goes around killing people"... ;-> I also appreciate how reaction time to being attacked, especially from a bullet flying from a gun, can feel less than zero... And as I explained in another post, I believe that if a person kills someone from instinctive, primal self-protection reflex, without intending to kill, this context is taken into deep consideration when all is weighed out within one's life review process after passing, and into what a soul chooses as a balance at some future point. In my understanding and experience, actual *intent to kill,* even in self-defense, carries a very high price that often doesn't come due until we reach the other side. But you said "karmic/shmarmic," so perhaps this realm of consideration doesn't come into the picture for you, which I understand and respect as well.

I don't have to watch anything on YouTube, I've been an eyewitness to various instances of deadly violence and had someone's hands and other body parts try to kill me. Still, there's no way I'd put a gun nor any other deadly weapon in my hand, so I'd never find myself "forced" to retaliate in this way you describe. I hope you never find yourself in that position! Yes: Odd though it may seem to you, I would indeed much rather die than kill another human being. If I were in some other position of self-defense without a weapon, in which somehow defending myself caused my attacker's death...knowing what I know about what we face on the other side, and even knowing *intention is everything,* that would still haunt me for the rest of my life.

Just color me hardcore pacifist I guess. ;->
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Unread 10-02-2011, 06:52 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

ohh i know what you mean.. i hope i dont get to use deadly force but these days, gotta be ready for anything and everything. i sure didnt expect walking into a bank and walking out a min later 5 min after that hearing AK47's machine gun shooting from across the street. Its your right to choose how to deal with deadly force, i am scorpio blood and death are not foreign subject. It is def not hollywood. Not everyone can press a trigger that is given but someone has to protect.

As far as karma goes, that is the last thing on my mind quite honestly. I am not exactly piscean type.

shrug
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Unread 10-02-2011, 06:57 PM
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Re: Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable

Understood and respected, Tikana! Best to you!
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