Proof Aquarius is ruled by uranus AND Saturn?

[YonyGursho]

Uranus is the planet of eccentricity and inventiveness and the abnormal. Aquarius perfectly fits the description of that.

Saturn is the planet of conformity, maturity and what's normal. Aquarius has never shown any traits of Saturn.

So why does modern astrology claim Aquarius is co ruled by saturn?

[waybread]

Yony, you need to move beyond simplistic one-liners. What are you reading these days about astrology?

As a sun-Aquarian, I assert that there is nothing "abnormal" about us. Remember, on Planet Aquarius, we are the normal ones. Aquarius is the fixed air sign.

Saturn has so many interpretations that I don't know where to begin. Saturn rules old age and agriculture. Traditionally it is the Greater Malefic.

Saturn was assigned to Aquarius and Capricorn in ancient times. Since it was the farthest-out planet, it was assigned to the signs the most distant from the sun and moon, both spatially and temporary. (See, for example, Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos from ca. 150 CE.)

Uranus wasn't discovered until 1781.

[YonyGursho]

Originally Posted by waybread

Yony, you need to move beyond simplistic one-liners. What are you reading these days about astrology?

As a sun-Aquarian, I assert that there is nothing "abnormal" about us. Remember, on Planet Aquarius, we are the normal ones. Aquarius is the fixed air sign.

Saturn has so many interpretations that I don't know where to begin. Saturn rules old age and agriculture. Traditionally it is the Greater Malefic.

Saturn was assigned to Aquarius and Capricorn in ancient times. Since it was the farthest-out planet, it was assigned to the signs the most distant from the sun and moon, both spatially and temporary. (See, for example, Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos from ca. 150 CE.)

Uranus wasn't discovered until 1781.

Why would the one sign that is the fixed air sign not be exactly what Aquarius is said to be?

Mutable = going with the flow air = intellectualism mutable + air = Gemini
Cardinal = action air = intellectualism cardinal + air = libra
Fixed = stationary air = intellectualism fixed + air = aquarius

It has to be Uranus and uranus alone.

Meaning Saturn must rule cap only.

[Gemini888]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

Why would the one sign that is the fixed air sign not be exactly what Aquarius is said to be?

Mutable = going with the flow air = intellectualism mutable + air = Gemini
Cardinal = action air = intellectualism cardinal + air = libra
Fixed = stationary air = intellectualism fixed + air = aquarius

It has to be Uranus and uranus alone.

Meaning Saturn must rule cap only.

That wasn't how Trad thought.


Before the discovery of the outer planets, Trad astrologers didn't use the Mars=Aries=1H model. They assigned Moon to Cancer's ruleship and Sun to Leo's ruleship (google Thema Mundi chart for more details). Then because Merc is the closest to Sun, the two signs next to Cancer and Leo were assigned ruleship for Merc, and they happened to be Gemini and Virgo. The same thing happened to Venus as it is the next sign to follow Merc, and Taurus and Libra are close to Gemini and Virgo. Then Mars and Aries/Scorpio, Jupiter and Sag/Pisces. Now the only remaining things are Saturn and Capricorn/Aquarius. And this was how Aqua got Saturn.


Your reasoning was only applied at the age of outer planet discovery, and that was modern astrology. Your reasoning isn't so comprehensive either. For example, if from what you are saying this is how Gemini gets Merc, then how do you explain Virgo? Virgo is very methodical and the perfectionist of the zodiac. I don't see any "going with the air" attitude in Virgo.

[YonyGursho]

Originally Posted by Gemini888

That wasn't how Trad thought.


Before the discovery of the outer planets, Trad astrologers didn't use the Mars=Aries=1H model. They assigned Moon to Cancer's ruleship and Sun to Leo's ruleship (google Thema Mundi chart for more details). Then because Merc is the closest to Sun, the two signs next to Cancer and Leo were assigned ruleship for Merc, and they happened to be Gemini and Virgo. The same thing happened to Venus as it is the next sign to follow Merc, and Taurus and Libra are close to Gemini and Virgo. Then Mars and Aries/Scorpio, Jupiter and Sag/Pisces. Now the only remaining things are Saturn and Capricorn/Aquarius. And this was how Aqua got Saturn.


Your reasoning was only applied at the age of outer planet discovery, and that was modern astrology. Your reasoning isn't so comprehensive either. For example, if from what you are saying this is how Gemini gets Merc, then how do you explain Virgo? Virgo is very methodical and the perfectionist of the zodiac. I don't see any "going with the air" attitude in Virgo.

Virgo is ruled by Merc, but a different side of Merc. The same way that Taurus is ruled by the other side of Venus. Whats to say this can't be true?

[Gemini888]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

Virgo is ruled by Merc, but a different side of Merc. The same way that Taurus is ruled by the other side of Venus. Whats to say this can't be true?

Then why can't Aqua rule a different side of Saturn?

[starblueprints]

Originally Posted by waybread

Yony, you need to move beyond simplistic one-liners. What are you reading these days about astrology?

As a sun-Aquarian, I assert that there is nothing "abnormal" about us. Remember, on Planet Aquarius, we are the normal ones. Aquarius is the fixed air sign.

Saturn has so many interpretations that I don't know where to begin. Saturn rules old age and agriculture. Traditionally it is the Greater Malefic.

Saturn was assigned to Aquarius and Capricorn in ancient times. Since it was the farthest-out planet, it was assigned to the signs the most distant from the sun and moon, both spatially and temporary. (See, for example, Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos from ca. 150 CE.)

Uranus wasn't discovered until 1781.

Well said.

[ardentika]

How is Uranus exactly PROVEN to be eccentric lol. The word eccentric itself is so limited human consciousness.

Uranus is innovative. It looks further in the future, trying to establish a better future. Sounds familiar? That's right, Saturn does that too.

Aquarius is often cold and disciplined. Sounds familiar?

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

Uranus is the planet of eccentricity and inventiveness and the [ab][COLOR="DarkRed"]para[/COLOR]-normal. Aquarius perfectly fits the description of that.

Aquarius is the sign that takes mental thought (Air) and applies it a stage further than Gemini(personal) and Libra (social). It's the sign that goes beyonf Capricorn's physical manifestation on Earth. It has nothing to do with 'ab'normal, except in the Virgo mind (normality) of those who find its thought waves work in a different manner to their own straight and narrow-minded Earth logic.
Worth noting that Virgo and Aquarius are in natural quincunx/inconjunct to each other? Air can ruffle Earth!

Saturn is the planet of conformity, maturity and what's (normal) societal. Aquarius has never shown any traits of Saturn.

So why does modern astrology claim Aquarius is co ruled by saturn?

Can I put an idea to you?
If Saturn has no rulership over Aquarius, where does Aquarius get its
future-orientated mind from? Upon what is it founded? I have yet to see anything in Aquarius as assigned 'intuition' be completely 'original' and based on Air alone.
(As someone once remarked to me; 'no one has an original thought!')

Aquarius doesn't pluck its ideas out of a hat …. or the sky. It mentally perceives from what has physically been seen and learnt (Saturn, present time), that it is no longer working as it should in, and has need of change for the future. Through Uranus its ideas are merely changed and renewed, as a result of past experience. If there was no past experience to work upon, Aquarius could not function in the way it does.

Uranus has a 7 year transit through a sign. It's trendy. Have you noticed how, after that time, what was considered 'modern' has become socially accepted, 'outmoded' and everyday?

As an example:
My son in a triple Aquarius. Mercury, Ascendant and natal Sun in 1st house.

He studied physiotherapy. He considered that particular learnt techniques could be applied differently to achieve results, which he put into practice (Saturn in Taurus). He failed his final physical exam because he did not follow protocol ...i.o.w. what the curriculum proceedure dictated. (His client's pains ceased!)

He wandered and finally found his niche in another branch of the helping profession. Again he found particular techniques could be done differently, and practically applied them. He was failed for not following protocol.
[ It was mum who told him to follow protocol and THEN go his own way once he qualified! He did.]

We are more than 20 years further.
What he applied in his physiotherapy studies, for which he was failed, has now become part of the curriculum!

We are 10 years further.
In his chosen profession, he has been asked to put his applied techniques (for which previously failed) into book manual form as a practical study guide! YouTube provides the visual application.

The Aquarius mind is way ahead of what is NOW occuring, yet it is based upon NOW and what can be altered to serve the future (Uranus): And that involves the mastership of Saturn, also the archivist, which brings up that which was long thought to be forgotten, yet isn't, and is called Uranus's 'inventiveness' and/or intuition.

[YonyGursho]

Originally Posted by Frisiangal

Aquarius is the sign that takes mental thought (Air) and applies it a stage further than Gemini(personal) and Libra (social). It's the sign that goes beyonf Capricorn's physical manifestation on Earth. It has nothing to do with 'ab'normal, except in the Virgo mind (normality) of those who find its thought waves work in a different manner to their own straight and narrow-minded Earth logic.
Worth noting that Virgo and Aquarius are in natural quincunx/inconjunct to each other? Air can ruffle Earth!



Can I put an idea to you?
If Saturn has no rulership over Aquarius, where does Aquarius get its
future-orientated mind from? Upon what is it founded? I have yet to see anything in Aquarius as assigned 'intuition' be completely 'original' and based on Air alone.
(As someone once remarked to me; 'no one has an original thought!')

Aquarius doesn't pluck its ideas out of a hat …. or the sky. It mentally perceives from what has physically been seen and learnt (Saturn, present time), that it is no longer working as it should in, and has need of change for the future. Through Uranus its ideas are merely changed and renewed, as a result of past experience. If there was no past experience to work upon, Aquarius could not function in the way it does.

Uranus has a 7 year transit through a sign. It's trendy. Have you noticed how, after that time, what was considered 'modern' has become socially accepted, 'outmoded' and everyday?

As an example:
My son in a triple Aquarius. Mercury, Ascendant and natal Sun in 1st house.

He studied physiotherapy. He considered that particular learnt techniques could be applied differently to achieve results, which he put into practice (Saturn in Taurus). He failed his final physical exam because he did not follow protocol ...i.o.w. what the curriculum proceedure dictated. (His client's pains ceased!)

He wandered and finally found his niche in another branch of the helping profession. Again he found particular techniques could be done differently, and practically applied them. He was failed for not following protocol.
[ It was mum who told him to follow protocol and THEN go his own way once he qualified! He did.]

We are more than 20 years further.
What he applied in his physiotherapy studies, for which he was failed, has now become part of the curriculum!

We are 10 years further.
In his chosen profession, he has been asked to put his applied techniques (for which previously failed) into book manual form as a practical study guide! YouTube provides the visual application.

The Aquarius mind is way ahead of what is NOW occuring, yet it is based upon NOW and what can be altered to serve the future (Uranus): And that involves the mastership of Saturn, also the archivist, which brings up that which was long thought to be forgotten, yet isn't, and is called Uranus's 'inventiveness' and/or intuition.

You're forcing an assumption down my throat without considering all of the possibilities.

You insist that aquarius cant be innovative without Saturn due to Saturn being the archivist, but the only one who is saying this has to be true is you. What if I told you that Uranus is so genius, that it is innovative in a age where it hasnt been around for anywhere near as long as saturn has?

Not sure why you are ignoring the fact that aqaurius is the sign of innovation. To be innovative you just have to see the needs of the masses and create something innovative for them. Aquarius doesnt need Saturn maturity or old age to do that. Because it has such bright intelligence of its own. Uranus is the planet of innovation after all. So it must be the planet of genius.

Why would a genius need to have been as old as Saturn and lived in the distant past to be aware of the needs of the masses today? The genius is so smart, so much so that he can recognize the needs of today's masses just by observing how things are in their day.

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

You're forcing an assumption down my throat without considering all of the possibilities.

That sounds very much like the pot calling the kettle black.

You insist that aquarius cant be innovative without Saturn due to Saturn being the archivist, but the only one who is saying this has to be true is you.

I didn't 'insist' on anything if my request regarding " Can I put an idea to you?" (with working example) is anything to go by.
Apparently the request is denied. Your choice.

What if I told you that Uranus is so genius, that it is innovative in a age where it hasnt been around for anywhere near as long as saturn has?

To be innovative you just have to see the needs of the masses and create something innovative for them. Aquarius doesnt need Saturn maturity or old age to do that. Because it has such bright intelligence of its own. Uranus is the planet of innovation after all. So it must be the planet of genius.

I or no one will not argue with you that Uranus does not possess genius, inventive, or innovative tendencies. We might query how it learned to access it.
To prove your own point of view and to enlighten me, could you give an example of how and where 'pure genius' is/was shown without any outside help whatsoever.
[I will admit that tendencies on the autism scale, which show a more than average inclusion of Uranus, may not offer plausible explanations.]

Not sure why you are ignoring the fact that aqaurius is the sign of innovation

.
I don't believe I did.

]Why would a genius need to have been as old as Saturn and lived in the distant past to be aware of the needs of the masses today?

I think you misunderstand what I was implying.
E.g. You can read a book only after you have learnt the aphabet that aids in in making words. Same goes for numbers and 'doing sums'
There is always a basis.

Admittedly, those stone age men had no examples to follow. Maybe the only real geniuses who applied 'original thought'?

The genius is so smart, so much so that he can recognize the needs of today's masses just by observing how things are in their day

Isn't that what I said??????

[david starling]

Modern is "on, beyond Saturn" by including the next Planet outside of Saturn's orbit as a sign-ruler.
Traditional stops with Saturn, which is why it Traditionally rules 2 signs, like all of the other Planets inside of Saturn's orbit.

[YonyGursho]

Originally Posted by ardentika

How is Uranus exactly PROVEN to be eccentric lol. The word eccentric itself is so limited human consciousness.

Uranus is innovative. It looks further in the future, trying to establish a better future. Sounds familiar? That's right, Saturn does that too.

Aquarius is often cold and disciplined. Sounds familiar?

We can look at the condition of uranus in people's charts and it will always perfectly describe their eccentricity and nothing else. That alone proves uranus is eccentricity.

Uranus is innovative, Saturn is just about discipline and seriousness. Clearly Saturn's function is cardinal by that description. And libra is already the cardinal air. So Saturn MUST be cardinal earth.

Again, look at the condition of uranus in anyone's chart and it will always only describe their eccentricity. So uranus has to be just eccentricity.

Saturns job is to work up the ranks the old fashioned way, which is through hard work and determination. Nothing about trying to establish a better future for anyone other than itself.

Thats why capricorn's constellation is the sea goat. It starts its climb below the sea and climbs up to the mountain top which symbolically represents the top of the social ladder. Goats climb mountains you know and are perfectly physically designed for it.

Cap/Saturn indeed looks into the future but only for its own benefit/gains. Uranus does it for the gains of mankind.

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

We can look at the condition of uranus in people's charts and it will always perfectly describe their eccentricity and nothing else. That alone proves uranus is eccentricity.

Uranus is innovative, Saturn is just about discipline and seriousness. Clearly Saturn's function is cardinal by that description. And libra is already the cardinal air. So Saturn MUST be cardinal earth.

Again, look at the condition of uranus in anyone's chart and it will always only describe their eccentricity. So uranus has to be just eccentricity.

Saturns job is to work up the ranks the old fashioned way, which is through hard work and determination. Nothing about trying to establish a better future for anyone other than itself.

Thats why capricorn's constellation is the sea goat. It starts its climb below the sea and climbs up to the mountain top which symbolically represents the top of the social ladder. Goats climb mountains you know and are perfectly physically designed for it.

Cap/Saturn indeed looks into the future but only for its own benefit/gains. Uranus does it for the gains of mankind.

Not really. Saturn is the servant for the highest good. It's a selfless planet not selfish as you described it.

Uranus is not just eccentric. Self limitations. I've seen many Uranian people who are highly imovative and look towards the future. Funñily enough those people have also dominant Saturn/Capricorn.

Those with heavy Aqua only are scattered in their young age and self conceited. Esp people with stelliums. It's a hard energy to grasp. However they too are excited for humanitys growth

10th house deals with the efforts and work you put out in the world. 11rh is the gains from it. So yes that's why Aqua is co ruled by Saturn too. In the end it's matter of open mindendess and perception.

Some people will use the co ruler, others like you won't. Astrology is colorful like the world itself. It's a futile argument.

[YonyGursho]

Originally Posted by ardentika

Not really. Saturn is the servant for the highest good. It's a selfless planet not selfish as you described it.

Uranus is not just eccentric. Self limitations. I've seen many Uranian people who are highly imovative and look towards the future. Funñily enough those people have also dominant Saturn/Capricorn.

Those with heavy Aqua only are scattered in their young age and self conceited. Esp people with stelliums. It's a hard energy to grasp. However they too are excited for humanitys growth

10th house deals with the efforts and work you put out in the world. 11rh is the gains from it. So yes that's why Aqua is co ruled by Saturn too. In the end it's matter of open mindendess and perception.

Some people will use the co ruler, others like you won't. Astrology is colorful like the world itself. It's a futile argument.

Wrong. 11th is the matters of eccentricity and innovation in one's life.

[david starling]

The Cardinal-signs are innovative, because they each begin a new seasonal quadrant. The Fixed-signs establish and intensify the innovations. The Mutable-signs are variational and expansive.
Capricorn is innovative because it's Cardinal, materialistic because it's an Earth-sign, and stays within the limitations imposed by its Domicile-ruler, Saturn.
Aquarius can move beyond Saturnian restrictions because of its Uranian Domicile-rulership, and into the non-materialistic realms because it's an Air-sign.

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

Wrong. 11th is the matters of eccentricity and innovation in one's life.

One house doesn't mean one thing. 7th isn't JUST the partner but open enemies too. 8th isn't JUST sex but occult and death and mystic knowledge.

Eccentricity is something that's up to each individual. What you find eccentric, I don't. What you find innovative, I don't. So your views are kind of plain and simplistic. That doesn't really work with astrology.

[katydid]

Originally Posted by YonyGursho

Wrong. 11th is the matters of eccentricity and innovation in one's life.

Let's see what Dane Rudyhar has to say about the 11th house:

The tenth mansion is that of "achievement"; but in the eleventh, man is confronted with a new mode of activity, which may be best expressed by the word "transfiguration" — or perhaps as well, "metamorphosis". What this signifies must be clear to one who realizes that in the tenth mansion the individual reaches fulfillment; this, because his individual selfhood is now solidly established, not apart from the whole, but as a part of the whole. There is thus nothing more for him to do as an individual. But there is much indeed to do as a part of the greater whole to which he now rightfully belongs and in which he functions as a vital cell.

What is to be done is no longer to be done as a separate individual, but as a responsible citizen of a community. He must, first of all, prove himself a good citizen, a good neighbor, a good friend. And this is self-transfiguration — which means that he must "figure out" things differently, from a communalistic, and no longer from an individualistic basis; also that he must "cut a figure" full of social implications and guided by a social or group purpose. This indeed is nothing short of a metamorphosis. Out of the chrysalis the butterfly now emerges. And the butterfly feeds upon the nectar of flowers, the ambrosia of the gods — of those who live fully in terms of the cosmic or planetary whole.

http://khaldea.com/rudhyar/nmnm/nmnm_p1_c11.php

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by david starling

Btw, I really like the words "Modernist" and "Tradtionalist", in place of "Modern" and "Traditional". I'm going to use them. Maybe the boards chould be changed to that effect.

Yuks; no way.

Doesn't modern/traditional describe the 'style' of a craft itself, and modernist/traditionalist to the person applying it?

Change one would mean changing all to see conformity without discrimination.
Natalist, Vedicist, Medicist, Electionist, Spiritualist Astrology just doesn't sound right ….. let alone look right on the boards.

[david starling]

Originally Posted by Frisiangal

Yuks; no way.

Doesn't modern/traditional describe the 'style' of a craft itself, and modernist/traditionalist to the person applying it?

Change one would mean changing all to see conformity without discrimination.
Natalist, Vedicist, Medicist, Electionist, Spiritualist Astrology just doesn't sound right ….. let alone look right on the boards.

J.A. just used it to describe "Modern astrology". It's about the PRACTICE of astrology using the Outermosts and asteroids,
"Traditional" co-opts the word "Tradition", which has a much more general meaning. For example Vedic is "Traditional" in the East. Modern is a continuation of the "Tradition of astrology", and is therefore traditional in it's own right. I don't think any of the others you mention should be changed, because their meanings are specific enough as they are.
Maybe "Modernistic" and "Tradtionalistic", nicknamed Mod and Trad.

[Frisiangal]

nicknamed Mod and Trad.

Yet, which might cause confusion with rock, jazz, and art.

[david starling]

How about "Old School astrology" for Trad?!
No Outermosts as Sign-rulers, no asteroids.

[david starling]

"Contemporary astrology" for Mod.

[conspiracy theorist]

No, not Yony's but jac. I know Yony's chart stats already.