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Mundane Astrology Discuss the astrology of towns, cities, states, provinces, countries, empires, and the world in general.


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  #76  
Unread 06-13-2021, 04:04 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Tim, how to interpret the extremely tight Moon/Jupiter conjunction in 29+ degrees Scorpio in H11?
David,

Moon in a "fate degree" to me indicates the strong nationalism of the US. Pride in the US no matter where US people go is so well-known that it often is a source of irritation for people of non-US countries. Jupiter simply expands that natural "home" focus.

Following up,

Tim

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  #77  
Unread 06-13-2021, 04:09 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Tim, I think you're still got a problem with using a chart for the "birth" of the US that is more specifically a chart for the surrender of the British army at Yorktown. How would you interpret the chart from a British perspective?
waybread,

The surrender of one side in a war is the victory of the other side. The British didn't surrender simply because they decided to give up the US: the British surrendered because the US colonials fought and WON the war for independence. At THAT time the US was truly separate from England and became its own country. If we were looking at the transits for England we would use the British loss at Yorktown as a major transit. However here we are looking for the source of the birth of the US as its own country, not simply as a HOPE to be independent from Britain but as actually BEING independent from Britain, so using the British definitive loss at Yorktown makes sense.

In the same way when looking at the chart of a company, we look at the day the company was incorporated and not simply at the day someone thought about possibly creating a company. So when looking at the chart of a nation we look at the day the nation became a nation, not when people simply HOPED it would be a nation.

Following up,

Tim
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  #78  
Unread 06-14-2021, 05:34 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

The conjunction between Mars and Pluto gifts drive and determination, in the 2nd house the drive would be for monetary gain. Aquarius would gift different and varied ways of making money.

Tim, I am starting to really like this chart for the US. I haven’t been looking to events yet. Just getting a feel for the flavour.
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  #79  
Unread 06-14-2021, 06:52 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, as I've pointed out recently, Britain's military defeat did not mean that they relinquished their territorial claim to their 13 colonies. That didn't happen until the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The treaty was what officially severed the US and Britain.

These are the precise Articles of Capitulation of the British army signed by Cornwallis:https://www.mountvernon.org/educatio...tion-yorktown/

Please note that nothing in them says that Britain thereby granted US sovereignty.


How the British saw their 13 colonies is complicated. Politically, relinquishment of their colonies was not the task of a defeated general, but of the British government. At that time, these were Parliament, the Prime Minister, and King George III.

On the American side, Benjamin Franklin and John Adams are the best known American diplomats who represented the US during the treaty negotiations. These further involved European powers who sent troops and ships into battle, notably the French for the Americans.

Note that hostilities between the US and Britain recommenced with the War of 1812.

My other point being, as analyzed above, that the Cornwallis Yorktown chart is not a very auspicious one for the United States going forward.

It just reads better as a chart for the British military defeat IMO.

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
waybread,

The surrender of one side in a war is the victory of the other side. The British didn't surrender simply because they decided to give up the US: the British surrendered because the US colonials fought and WON the war for independence. At THAT time the US was truly separate from England and became its own country. If we were looking at the transits for England we would use the British loss at Yorktown as a major transit. However here we are looking for the source of the birth of the US as its own country, not simply as a HOPE to be independent from Britain but as actually BEING independent from Britain, so using the British definitive loss at Yorktown makes sense.

In the same way when looking at the chart of a company, we look at the day the company was incorporated and not simply at the day someone thought about possibly creating a company. So when looking at the chart of a nation we look at the day the nation became a nation, not when people simply HOPED it would be a nation.

Following up,

Tim
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Last edited by waybread; 06-14-2021 at 06:58 AM.
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  #80  
Unread 06-14-2021, 06:57 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

In mundane astrology, the 2nd house represents the nation's wealth and financial institutions. The 8th house represents "Public mortality, death-rate, the kinds of people who die. Death duties. Financial relations with foreign countries."

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html

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Opal,

In this context the 2nd house is the monies of the US. 8th house would be monies of other countries.

Following up,

Tim
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  #81  
Unread 06-14-2021, 09:37 AM
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Smile Re: US - a Uranian Country

The Cornwallis chart has a Neptune Return right at the beginning of a new cycle in American history. I find that very convincing.

The Judgement at Nuremberg, establishment of the U.N., the Civil Rights Movement, sexual liberation, and a real change in clothing, music, and lifestyle choices are all in keeping with transiting Neptune conjunct the Cornwallis chart Neptune in Libra. [IMO]
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  #82  
Unread 06-14-2021, 10:39 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

You are repeating exactly what TimW posted.

To expand it further:

The 8th House:
The 8th house rules the death rate, the types of people who die, how the nation treats death, and financial relations with foreign countries. It can also indicate how much debt a country or corporation is in as well as loans, interest, and taxes.

The 8th house can also be relevant the people are feeling oppressed or there is some sort of power struggle.




The 2nd House:
The 2nd house rules the wealth of a nation, the economy, currency, revenue, banks, the Stock Exchange, financial institutions, money market, and trade

It also rules the possessions or property of people as a whole. Anything material is ruled by the 2nd house.




https://teaandrosemary.com/mundane-astrology/




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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
In mundane astrology, the 2nd house represents the nation's wealth and financial institutions. The 8th house represents "Public mortality, death-rate, the kinds of people who die. Death duties. Financial relations with foreign countries."

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html
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  #83  
Unread 06-14-2021, 10:56 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

I'm not resonating with the chart.

Where is the conflict with other nations shown in this chart?

In the Sibley Chart, Mars 7th sq Neptune 10th. The endless wars & conflicts all done with an ulterior motive (Neptune).

And a packed 7th indicates the numerous alliances and friendships the U.S shares with many countries, particularly those of the British Commonwealth (England, Australia, Canada).

There are some very good points you make that make your chart credible.

Mmmmmmmmmm. I wonder.
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  #84  
Unread 06-14-2021, 11:17 AM
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Smile Re: US - a Uranian Country

Neptune is clearly about connectivity to the higher, spiritual realms, and is well-placed in Libra in H9. Living up to those high ideals of the chart's most elevated planet is difficult given the Uranian square to it in H7.

Btw, labeling Neptune as "deceptive" is a purely materialistic judgement. Saturn is the "Great Deceiver" from a spiritual point of view.

Last edited by david starling; 06-14-2021 at 12:08 PM.
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  #85  
Unread 06-14-2021, 01:02 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Tim, as I've pointed out recently, Britain's military defeat did not mean that they relinquished their territorial claim to their 13 colonies. That didn't happen until the Treaty of Paris in 1783. The treaty was what officially severed the US and Britain.
waybread,

There would have been no Treaty of Paris without the Battle of Yorktown. The Battle of Yorktown was the last battle on colonial soil and last major engagement of the British on the colonials. After Yorktown, the British knew they had lost the American colonies. The French and Spanish were fighting the British across the seas and the British could no longer hold onto the America colonies. The British saved face in the surrender of Yorktown, but it was just a matter of time before they finalized that informal surrender of the colonies with the formal Treaty of Paris. That is why the Cornwallis surrender chart IS the birth chart of the US as its own separate country.

Following up,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 06-14-2021 at 01:08 PM.
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  #86  
Unread 06-14-2021, 01:07 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Where is the conflict with other nations shown in this chart? And a packed 7th indicates the numerous alliances and friendships the U.S shares with many countries...
blackbery,

For me, the conflict and the glory of the US is shown by the Sun conjunct South node high in the chart. The US is a natural leader in the world and attracts a lot of attention from all the other nations. The US is seen as "proud" and even "boastful" by the other nations. This "pride" comes naturally and easily to the US. However, when it comes to focusing on itself and its "home" (North node), the conjunction of the Sun to the South node makes it difficult. Even something seemingly as simple as bringing troops home becomes difficult, because of the US's standing as a leader in the world: the US keeps getting pulled back out into the world (Sun conjunct South node) while it wants to develop itself at home (North node in 4th house) instead.

Thinking it through,

Tim
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Unread 06-14-2021, 01:53 PM
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Smile Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
blackbery,

For me, the conflict and the glory of the US is shown by the Sun conjunct South node high in the chart. The US is a natural leader in the world and attracts a lot of attention from all the other nations. The US is seen as "proud" and even "boastful" by the other nations. This "pride" comes naturally and easily to the US. However, when it comes to focusing on itself and its "home" (North node), the conjunction of the Sun to the South node makes it difficult. Even something seemingly as simple as bringing troops home becomes difficult, because of the US's standing as a leader in the world: the US keeps getting pulled back out into the world (Sun conjunct South node) while it wants to develop itself at home (North node in 4th house) instead.

Thinking it through,

Tim

Asc trine NN is very fortunate.
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  #88  
Unread 06-14-2021, 02:50 PM
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I'm not resonating with the chart.

Where is the conflict with other nations shown in this chart?

In the Sibley Chart, Mars 7th sq Neptune 10th. The endless wars & conflicts all done with an ulterior motive (Neptune).

And a packed 7th indicates the numerous alliances and friendships the U.S shares with many countries, particularly those of the British Commonwealth (England, Australia, Canada).

There are some very good points you make that make your chart credible.

Mmmmmmmmmm. I wonder.
Conflicts with other nations are 7th house. Uranus and it’s aspects, Mars, Pluto, Neptune, Venus, Sun, Chiron and ascendant. 🙂
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  #89  
Unread 06-14-2021, 06:36 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

I get what you are saying but I really don't see the U.S. as being a
Americans are generally the most patriotic people on the planet; they love their homeland. Over 2/3 of the people never travel outside of the country!
This really fits with the theme of protecting the home and being proud of the country.

And....the U.S. is known around the world as a ' super power'. With your chart, that is not reflected but in the Sibley, certainly fits the 'military aggressor' that it is. In the past 60 yrs, they have invaded, bombed and created wars/conflicts in numerous countries....to 'spread democracy'.

which is code for 'we want your oil, your resources and we will invade and pillage and take what we want'.

And ...like you post, they also have good and positive relations with many countries and that explains perfectly the H7. Many nations love the U.S.A. and that's why they all want to move here.

But it is strange how similar both charts are in a way when you look at the 'big picture'.

Interesting.








Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
blackbery,

For me, the conflict and the glory of the US is shown by the Sun conjunct South node high in the chart. The US is a natural leader in the world and attracts a lot of attention from all the other nations. The US is seen as "proud" and even "boastful" by the other nations. This "pride" comes naturally and easily to the US. However, when it comes to focusing on itself and its "home" (North node), the conjunction of the Sun to the South node makes it difficult. Even something seemingly as simple as bringing troops home becomes difficult, because of the US's standing as a leader in the world: the US keeps getting pulled back out into the world (Sun conjunct South node) while it wants to develop itself at home (North node in 4th house) instead.

Thinking it through,

Tim
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  #90  
Unread 06-14-2021, 06:41 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Both charts have Uranus 7th House which fits with the Uranian theme that you talk abofut & which I absolutely agree with.

Americans love their FREEDOM and the Constitutional Republic is the most unique on earth.

It was called 'The American Experiment' by the Founding Fathers.S
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  #91  
Unread 06-14-2021, 09:15 PM
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Smile Re: US - a Uranian Country

Interesting coincidence:

The Cornwallis Chart year 1781, is the same year the planet that was eventually named "Uranus" was discovered by amateur astronomer William Herschel on March 13th. Ironically, he was going to name it for King George III, the monarch the Americans were fighting against for independence, but he was overruled by the other astronomers of his day.

Last edited by david starling; 06-15-2021 at 06:35 AM.
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  #92  
Unread 06-15-2021, 06:13 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

OK-- but Tim, by this logic, there would have been no battle of Yorktown without the Declaration of Independence.

There would have been no Declaration of Independence without the Boston Massacre, the Boston Tea Party, the Continental Congresses, and the Battles of Lexington and Concord. So Yorktown itself had precedents.

Generals, be they Washington, Cornwallis, or Daffy Duck do not declare war or separation: that's the job of governments.

In terms of any provisional government on the American side that would even have been capable of appointing a military commander capable accepting a British military surrender, we're probably looking at a "birth date" of the First Continental Congress on Sept. 5, 1774, Philadelphia. The body that created a cohesive US military was the Second Continental Congress of May 10, 1775 in Philadelphia.

Ever wonder who appointed George Washington?

Up to 1774-1775 or so, the American colonists saw themselves as bona fide Englishmen, and were annoyed that the British Parliament denied them rights due British subjects.

I did some sleuthing on these earlier precursors, and there is such a thing as the [Helen Boyd] Declaration of War Chart for July 6, 1775, available on the Astro-DataBank. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nation:_USA_No.6

See what you think.

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waybread,

There would have been no Treaty of Paris without the Battle of Yorktown. The Battle of Yorktown was the last battle on colonial soil and last major engagement of the British on the colonials. After Yorktown, the British knew they had lost the American colonies. The French and Spanish were fighting the British across the seas and the British could no longer hold onto the America colonies. The British saved face in the surrender of Yorktown, but it was just a matter of time before they finalized that informal surrender of the colonies with the formal Treaty of Paris. That is why the Cornwallis surrender chart IS the birth chart of the US as its own separate country.

Following up,

Tim
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Last edited by waybread; 06-15-2021 at 06:27 AM.
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  #93  
Unread 06-15-2021, 06:21 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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I get what you are saying but I really don't see the U.S. as being a
Americans are generally the most patriotic people on the planet; they love their homeland. Over 2/3 of the people never travel outside of the country!
This really fits with the theme of protecting the home and being proud of the country.
Blackbery, this is geography and personal finance, not love of country. Obviously people who serve the US in uniform love their country a lot, and they typically have overseas tours of duty.

You may have noticed that the US is a massive country. It costs money to travel overseas. In contrast, European countries are typically very small so they often travel across borders for business or holidays.

To me, you're describing xenophobia or economic considerations more than patriotism.

Quote:
And....the U.S. is known around the world as a ' super power'. With your chart, that is not reflected but in the Sibley, certainly fits the 'military aggressor' that it is. In the past 60 yrs, they have invaded, bombed and created wars/conflicts in numerous countries....to 'spread democracy'.
There are better ways to spread democracy than dropping bombs on people's homes. Wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
which is code for 'we want your oil, your resources and we will invade and pillage and take what we want'.
So the US engages in economic colonialism.

Quote:
And ...like you post, they also have good and positive relations with many countries and that explains perfectly the H7. Many nations love the U.S.A. and that's why they all want to move here.

But it is strange how similar both charts are in a way when you look at the 'big picture'.

Interesting.
Which nations love the Americans? Keep in mind that most countries would be split on this issue.
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  #94  
Unread 06-15-2021, 06:32 AM
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Waybread, there's a LOT of cynicism regarding the actual purpose and result of U.S. foreign policy. Well-earned, I would say.

Like, War for Oil, disguised as "spreading democracy".

We haven't yet lived up to the high ideals suggested by the Chart, but there's hope for improvement.
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  #95  
Unread 06-15-2021, 01:36 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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I get what you are saying but I really don't see the U.S. as being a ...the U.S. is known around the world as a ' super power'. With your chart, that is not reflected but in the Sibley, certainly fits the 'military aggressor' that it is. In the past 60 yrs, they have invaded, bombed and created wars/conflicts in numerous countries....to 'spread democracy'...
blackbery,

Libra IS a war sign but it isn't well-known for that. The US gets involved in wars around the world when things are "unfair": a bully country is oppressing another country, one country is using their power to cut off access to what another country needs, Islamic believers are spreading terror against everyone else, etc. Somehow things are "out of balance" and the US is there to fix it. The US then struggles to find the right time to leave, since if they leave the "unfair" situation will come up again. While the US puts up military bases around the world, the US does NOT claim those countries where their military is in as their own, perhaps since this would be "unfair" to those who are IN the country, and as this would go against the idea of the US as a peacemaker. All of this is VERY Libran.

As mentioned, the strong Moon at a "fate degree" is enough to show the powerful love of the country and the "home".

Still thinking it through,

Tim

P.S. The surrender of Cornwallis was the last battle on US soil. After THAT battle the US was its own country, and the British knew it. They didn't DARE put any more troops on US soil. This was NOT the case when Independence was DECLARED as that was the BEGINNING of the war. The surrender of Cornwallis was the end of the war and the beginning of the US as its own country. The Treaty of Paris was simply a formality that allowed the British to save face.
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  #96  
Unread 06-15-2021, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
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blackbery,

Libra IS a war sign but it isn't well-known for that. The US gets involved in wars around the world when things are "unfair": a bully country is oppressing another country, one country is using their power to cut off access to what another country needs, Islamic believers are spreading terror against everyone else, etc. Somehow things are "out of balance" and the US is there to fix it. The US then struggles to find the right time to leave, since if they leave the "unfair" situation will come up again. While the US puts up military bases around the world, the US does NOT claim those countries where their military is in as their own, perhaps since this would be "unfair" to those who are IN the country, and as this would go against the idea of the US as a peacemaker. All of this is VERY Libran.

As mentioned, the strong Moon at a "fate degree" is enough to show the powerful love of the country and the "home".

Still thinking it through,

Tim

P.S. The surrender of Cornwallis was the last battle on US soil. After THAT battle the US was its own country, and the British knew it. They didn't DARE put any more troops on US soil. This was NOT the case when Independence was DECLARED as that was the BEGINNING of the war. The surrender of Cornwallis was the end of the war and the beginning of the US as its own country. The Treaty of Paris was simply a formality that allowed the British to save face.
Libra sun is about the attempt to balance the scale. Usually when a scale is depicted it leans to one side or the other.

Being cardinal it is a strong sign, I thought I had written of the indifference they can show. They and the other air signs share this.

Cardinal are war signs, leaders.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 04:07 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

ALL very good points Tim. I like your answers to my queries about the two charts.

It's almost as if the two charts are 'saying the same thing' but using different astrology signs and houses.

I do always forget that Libra is an 'aggressor' too. Cardinal. Strong. It's easy to forget this under the charm and diplomacy but they can be very 'fierce' too.

I am pondering on your chart & liking more & more.

But not enough to replace the Sibley one......at least not yet.

But it's a very good alternative with your logical references.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 04:27 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

However, I do disagree with the motives for U.S. involvement in wars.

WW11 was definitely the U.S. 'standing up' to the bully Nazi regime.

Maybe even Vietnam/Korea/USSR you could say that they were standing up against the 'big bully of Communism.'

But the ME wars are ALL about self-interest, ALL about getting the oil, the resources & keeping control of the region.

But they pretend it's about 'democracy', protecting the people, etc etc.

Not many people realize that the ONLY reason Obama/Clinton killed Libyan President Gaddafi and invaded the country was to steal the gold (the country had a huge reserve, maybe up to 200 tonnes), take control of the oil & the country.

This is what the sociopath HRC said about it.

"We came, we saw, he died!" she crowed in a CBS video interview on hearing of the capture and brutal murder of Libyan leader Muammar el-Qaddafi.


G was loved by his people, he was organizing a strong Arab group to counteract the super-powers who was circling the ME to attack & steal what they could. G was a hero because he was standing up to the 'bullies' & they killed him & his family for it.

It's disgusting how the West thinks it's okay to invade ANY country that they want to & 'rape & pillage' the land.

Just a reaction to your posting that the U.S.A. likes to fight the bully.

They ARE the bullies now!



Why they killed Gaddafi
Colonialism is alive and well in central banking



https://iai.tv/articles/why-they-kil...dafi-auid-1757

Last edited by blackbery; 06-15-2021 at 04:54 PM.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 05:45 PM
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Opal Opal is offline
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Wars are usually about the control of oil, and people. Standard Oil has its bloody little hands in all of them. Right now we are being bullied as the people to vaccinate, next will be the chip. This is a test run. How will you all feel when Musk wants you to implant his chip in your brain? Are you lining up?

Power, Fear, Control. Very Plutonic. Pluto return.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 07:20 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: US - a Uranian Country

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Wars are usually about the control of oil, and people. Standard Oil has its bloody little hands in all of them. Right now we are being bullied as the people to vaccinate, next will be the chip. This is a test run. How will you all feel when Musk wants you to implant his chip in your brain? Are you lining up?

Power, Fear, Control. Very Plutonic. Pluto return.
Saturn=Fear

Saturn=Power and Control

Saturn=Mortality


Pluto is about the Soul's transformative journey in the Afterlife, following the death of the material body.

All three Water-sign rulers--The Moon, Pluto, and Neptune--are about connectivity to the non-material realms.

Saturn restricts us to materialistic awareness.

Last edited by david starling; 06-15-2021 at 07:38 PM.
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