Anti-Capitalism Thread

Oddity said:

I see. All rich people are evil, therefore you can do anything you want to them. Sure, mob rule would be a real improvement over what we have now.

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It's called democracy. I say, lets put the question of economic system on global referendum. If capitalism wins I'll accept it as a will of human race. If capitalism loses, will you accept it?

Dirius said:

The system is the best there has been in the entire human history. ALL other systems have utterly failed. And marxists usually say capitalism is failing... based on what? capitalist countries are the wealthiest countries on earth, and there is no evidence to the contrary. In fact the more that capitalist countries have moved to the left with policy the worse they have been.

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But there are dozens of proposed systems that haven't been tried yet.

Slave owners also argued that slavery is the best system of all.

Cap said:

It's called democracy. I say, lets put the question of economic system on global referendum. If capitalism wins I'll accept it as a will of human race. If capitalism loses, will you accept it?

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Your majority rule doesn't get to trample my individual rights.

- The majority of the people in Germany decided that Jewish individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the people in Turkey decided that Armenians individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the people in Japan decided that Chinese individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the population in the Soviet Union decided that farmer's individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

Many things have been done in the name of the majority. So if people refuse to live under your socialist regime, would you follow the same path? Would you just force people to give up their stuff and live under your thumb?

If your answer is no, then I have an alternative solution: let every person or community choose how to live; we can divide the world and those that choose capitalism can go live in countries that value free market, and those that would like socialism can go live in socialst countries. I think this way its actually more fair, and everyone can live in peace with their choices.

Oh wait we already did that: its called the 20th century.

And even so, you can choose to establish your own little socialist community within the U.S. Gather your friends, buy some land, and live in a socialist regime where everyone shares with others, and everyone takes care of everybody else. You can have your mini-socialist experiment within the country if you want to.

Cap said:

But there are dozens of proposed systems that haven't been tried yet.

Slave owners also argued that slavery is the best system of all.

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All systems revolve around 2 concepts: big goverment or small goverment. Not much variation.

No one owns the planet, we are all stuck here together, whether we like it or not. I am for full set of personal rights and liberties but some things are just insane. No one needs billions while his fellow human beings are unnecessary starving to death. If this is the outcome of the system, then the system is idiotic. No one has a right to pollute and irreversibly damage the planet (in the name of profit). If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.

Cap said:

No one owns the planet, we are all stuck here together, whether we like it or not. I am for full set of personal rights and liberties but some things are just insane. No one needs billions while his fellow human beings are unnecessary starving to death. If this is the outcome of the system, then the system is idiotic. No one has a right to pollute and irreversibly damage the planet (in the name of profit). If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.

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What is it to you if someone has millions or even trillions? He did not steal them from you. People give them to him freely in exchange for goods and services. Jeff Bezos is the richest man alive. Did he steal that money from the poor?

People aren't starving because some guy has a lot of money. People are starving because they DO NOT know how to manage their resources. People in Venezuela are starving right now. And they are a socialist country. Because the goverment takes their taxes and their money, and does not allow them to buy food from other countries. Because the goverment presumes to manage the wealth of the country instead of allowing individuals to be free to manage it.

Cap said:

If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.

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I see, so if I do not do what you say, you will hurt me.

So just like the kulak farmers in the soviet union, or the jews in nazi germany, I have to give my property to you, and do what you say, or you will be morally justified to hurt me, because you represent the will of the majority.

Cap, are you serious? You seriously don't realise what you are saying?

Dirius said:

I see, so if I do not do what you say, you will hurt me.

So just like the kulak farmers in the soviet union, or the jews in nazi germany, I have to give my property to you, and do what you say, or you will be morally justified to hurt me, because you represent the will of the majority.

Cap, are you serious? You seriously don't realise what you are saying?

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I am perfectly aware what I'm saying but are you?

All economic advantage of Europe, Japan and USA over the rest of the world is not due to "a magic of capitalism" as mass media propaganda might led you believe but due to a relentless exploitation and theft of the third world. All of this has been accomplished by the use of brutal force in the past and today is mostly replaced by financial machinations through the IMF. It's essentially what the U.S. has been doing for the past 50 years.

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.

You are arguing that a 'dog-eat-dog' world with all its use of force, exploitation and coercion, both on micro and macro level, is just a natural order of things, the way "it is supposed to be". But if someone within the system wants to use the same strategy against oppressive elements then it's not right.

Cap said:

All economic advantage of Europe, Japan and USA over the rest of the world is not due to "a magic of capitalism" as mass media propaganda might led you believe but due to a relentless exploitation and theft of the third world. All of this has been accomplished by the use of brutal force in the past and today is mostly replaced by financial machinations through the IMF. It's essentially what the U.S. has been doing for the past 50 years.

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.

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As a person that lives in the third world, and that has studied how local politics affect the region, I can testify that everything you just said is false. And I will explain to you why:

The problems in south america are 100% big goverment. We pay huge taxes here, personal liberties are reduced (despite the fact we live in democratic nations), economic growth is stumped, and an outrageous miss-management of funds leads to heavy inflation.

The idea that "the great powers" steal our resources is hilarious and dumb. Nearly all the resources have been under control of the national goverments, and nearly all the companies run by the goverment are miss-managed and have a net loss. We actually hope every year that economic conditions improve so your companies can come into south america, invest capital and create jobs, so people can earn a living. In fact, when the goverments sell the resources to private capital (whether foreign or national), production usually increases and the prices of those products gets lower, the economy grows and people end up having more jobs.

I can go into details and give you a 25 page explanation of the economic problems in my country, and by extension in other countries if you want.
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Cap said:

I am perfectly aware what I'm saying but are you?

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.

You are arguing that a 'dog-eat-dog' world with all its use of force, exploitation and coercion, both on micro and macro level, is just a natural order of things, the way "it is supposed to be". But if someone within the system wants to use the same strategy against oppressing elements then it's not right.

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Cap you are clearly willing to use physical force, which leads to death, to impose your system. So you have no problem in harming others in the name of your "revolution".

You like to assume that third world countries are beautiful paradises, until the big and bad Euro-Americans come and trash the place, enslave the population and take all the resources which is just a dumb belief. Most third world country economies encourage foreign capital to invest in the country. In fact those that do, see their economies and standards of living increasing.

Reasonable taxation of Billionaires and Millionaires doesn't interfere with their pursuit of happiness, because they will still have more than enough money to buy anything they want and go anywhere they want, in-style and with special privileges. The source of their wealth is the labor of others, and the natural resources that belong to the Planet we all live on. So, it's not their sacred right to hoard massive amounts of wealth while many starve and die for the lack of it. In fact, I would call THAT immoral.

It doesn't work like that, David. You're not poor because Bill Gates is rich. It doesn't even make sense.

If you want to get rid of crony capitalism, I'm with you all the way. It's a huge problem in Canada, and also in the US. It's one of the things that drove Venezuela into ill-fated socialism. But do note that Venezuela was a very wealthy country where the majority of people were NOT starving when it was capitalist. It was socialism that brought on that catastrophe.

I'd be more than happy to get rid of most corporate welfare and many of the corporate/governmental deals. Up here they usually lead to things like collusion and price-fixing. This is not free-market capitalism.

But there isn't anything immoral about someone having a lot of money. Their money doesn't make you or anyone else poor. Capitalism has done a lot to lift people out of poverty. Socialism has been a nightmarish reversal of that.

david starling said:

Reasonable taxation of Billionaires and Millionaires doesn't interfere with their pursuit of happiness, because they will still have more than enough money to buy anything they want and go anywhere they want, in-style and with special privileges. The source of their wealth is the labor of others, and the natural resources that belong to the Planet we all live on. So, it's not their sacred right to hoard massive amounts of wealth while many starve and die for the lack of it. In fact, I would call THAT immoral.

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Every great famine in the 20th century has occured in countries where the goverment has a large control over the economy. Never in the history of free market societies has starvation existed. Not even during the great depression of the 30's was there starvation (which by the way, was caused mostly by bad goverment policy).

Countries such as the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc. have suffered mass starvation during the 20th century. In fact in some countries form the west, obesity is actually a larger problem than starvation.

I actually don't envy the super-wealthy. Capitalism NEEDS them in order to function properly. Never wanted to be one though. We also need a strong middle-class. And, a less wealthy labor-pool in order to get things done. In my line of work (landscaping) it's the millionaires and the middle -class that hire me. But substantially income-taxing the HIGHEST brackets is also necessary for the economy as a whole. The middle-class should hardly be income-taxed at all. Everyone, the poor included, pay local taxes on property and/or consumer goods. In the U.S. in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, we had VERY high upper-bracket taxation, and a booming economy (albeit with an occasional but mild recession), a functional social-safety-net and a relatively low National Debt. Corporate-taxes were high as well. Then, suddenly, "Greed Was Good", and we ended up where we are now.

david starling said:

I actually don't envy the super-wealthy. Capitalism NEEDS them in order to function properly. Never wanted to be one though. We also need a strong middle-class. And, a less wealthy labor-pool in order to get things done. In my line of work (landscaping) it's the millionaires and the middle -class that hire me. But substantially income-taxing the HIGHEST brackets is also necessary for the economy as a whole. The middle-class should hardly be income-taxed at all. Everyone, the poor included, pay local taxes on property and/or consumer goods. In the U.S. in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, we had VERY high upper-bracket taxation, and a booming economy (albeit with an occasional but mild recession), a functional social-safety-net and a relatively low National Debt. Corporate-taxes were high as well. Then, suddenly, "Greed Was Good", and we ended up where we are now.

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There are a number of taxes that are charged on every citizen to mantain large goverment. But here is a point we can agree:


You are charged an income tax. Ok so you have to give part of your salary to the goverment. But then they also charge you a sales tax on every item you purchase with that money you earn, money which was already previously tax. And then, for some of those items that you purchase with that money which was already taxed when you earned it and which was taxed again at the purchase, you have to pay an annual tax to keep the item you purchased.



Now the problem with socialism is that, their solution si to keep a large goverment and only tax the rich.

How about small goverment, cutting spending, and allowing people to keep their money and save/invest it the way they prefer?

Some taxes are needed, because we do need some things from goverment. But some taxations are crazy.

Dirius said:

There are a number of taxes that are charged on every citizen to mantain large goverment. But here is a point we can agree:


You are charged an income tax. Ok so you have to give part of your salary to the goverment. But then they also charge you a sales tax on every item you purchase with that money you earn, money which was already previously tax. And then, for some of those items that you purchase with that money which was already taxed when you earned it and which was taxed again at the purchase, you have to pay an annual tax to keep the item you purchased.



Now the problem with socialism is that, their solution si to keep a large goverment and only tax the rich.

How about small goverment, cutting spending, and allowing people to keep their money and save/invest it the way they prefer?

Some taxes are needed, because we do need some things from goverment. But some taxations are crazy.

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We currently have Corporate-Capitalism, and a Supreme Court that has actually equated Corporations, which the Founding Fathers warned us about, with individual persons! This is the version of Capitalism that has devoured all the other versions, and is now the only fish left in the tank. I can't see any effective competition from any other form of Capitalism in the here and now.

Dirius said:

As a person that lives in the third world, and that has studied how local politics affect the region, I can testify that everything you just said is false. And I will explain to you why:

The problems in south america are 100% big goverment. We pay huge taxes here, personal liberties are reduced (despite the fact we live in democratic nations), economic growth is stumped, and an outrageous miss-management of funds leads to heavy inflation.

The idea that "the great powers" steal our resources is hilarious and dumb. Nearly all the resources have been under control of the national goverments, and nearly all the companies run by the goverment are miss-managed and have a net loss. We actually hope every year that economic conditions improve so your companies can come into south america, invest capital and create jobs, so people can earn a living. In fact, when the goverments sell the resources to private capital (whether foreign or national), production usually increases and the prices of those products gets lower, the economy grows and people end up having more jobs.

I can go into details and give you a 25 page explanation of the economic problems in my country, and by extension in other countries if you want.
--

You like to assume that third world countries are beautiful paradises, until the big and bad Euro-Americans come and trash the place, enslave the population and take all the resources which is just a dumb belief. Most third world country economies encourage foreign capital to invest in the country. In fact those that do, see their economies and standards of living increasing.

Click to expand...

You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo

Dirius said:

Cap you are clearly willing to use physical force, which leads to death, to impose your system. So you have no problem in harming others in the name of your "revolution".

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I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.

Cap said:

You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo



I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.

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Ooh, Mars in Scorpio! Versus....Dirius, where's your Mars? I'm guessing Leo or Virgo.

david starling said:

There's a fun anecdote about Ernest Hemingway and F.Scott Fitzgerald concerning wealthy people. Fitzgerald was in awe of them, and said "The rich are DIFFERENT you know." To which Hemingway replied, "Yeah, they've got more money!"
Calvinism equates having great wealth with being in God's favor. That's the Capitalistic equivalent of Feudalism's concept of the Divine Right of royalty.

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the late Herb Caen , a Pulitzer prize winning columnist for the san Francisco chronicle last century
https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=herb+caen&fr=yfp-t-s&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
had a modern take on this legendary anecdote.

"the rich are different you know"
"yeah, they have better dope"

he wrote this is a column some months before the cia drug hits on mayor moscone(Italian mafia head)and supervisor Harvey milk(gay mafia head) in 1978

rahu

Here's something to consider: Nuclear Fusion plants, coming on line by about 2040. That will mark the end of the Fossil-fuel dominance that's the current cause of global conflict. The economic impact will be enormous, and how well it's handled will determine whether Capitalism is fit to survive.

BAHAHA this thread.

Cap, you've honestly have got to be kidding me. Your Marxist's beliefs shall perish before me. For I am the voice of reason. The voice that fights for capitalism! <3

First of all... people who don't like capitalism don't like freedom. That's literally what they're saying. They don't want people to be free. They want people to be like animals.

Capitalism, is essentially, individuals freely trading with one another.

It's individuals freely trading with one another.

It's individuals FREELY trading with one another.

Can we agree on that please?? Thanks.

If I have something that you want, and you have something that I want, we must VOLUNTARILY agree to trade with each other.

The reason why we have private property and have ownership is so that trading can be made possible. How do you make a trade if everyone owns everything? And if everyone owns everything, how do we decide who gets to have what? Cuz material resources are finite.

When you work at a minimum wage job, you are trading your time and labor in exchange for money. If you don't like it, then quit your job. Start your own business and hire people to work for you.

The world doesn't owe you anything. If you want something, you have to give something first. If want a lot of something, then you have to give a lot.

People who make good trades are capitalists. Why? People they mass produce something that people are willing to trade them for. The more people that trade with them, the richer they get. They build wealth, they invest, and they become even more rich.

People who fail to make good trades are punished for it. Working a minimum wage job your entire life is stupid trade. Freedom comes with a price. You are responsible for your own actions.

So the only people who have a problem with capitalism, are people who don't like freedom. And people who don't like freedom, are people who make bad choices. People who make bad choices want other people to take care of them for their bad choices. And people who want others to take care of them are either children, ultra lazy, parasites, Democrats, Communists, Leftists, SJW's, and Marxists.

The world can't go on if everyone isn't responsible for their actions.

Let me repeat.

The world can't go on if everyone isn't responsible for their OWN actions.

I'm responsible for myself. You are responsible for yourself. That person is responsible for themselves.

We can't have more people riding in the wagon than there are pulling it.
We can't have more people sitting on their asses then there people doing work.
We can't have reward the diseased, the imperfect, the unproductive, and the victimized, while punishing the healthy, perfect, productive, and responsible.

We can't have more people taking the wealth than there are people producing the wealth.

Capitalism is true justice and fairness.

I think it's so funny when Marxists say that capitalism has failed... Like omg, you need to stop and look around for a second.

Like when when you say that you think capitalism is a destructive force, this the analogy that comes to my mind:

The Sun has failed to warm the Earth properly because you could overheat in the desert, or freeze to death in the poles, or get sunburned if you're outside too long.

The Sun isn't perfect at warming the Earth.

Therefore, we must obliterate the Sun and replace it with our own made-up Sun that we're somehow going to create?

Because we have Scientists, or an all powerful leader that claims to know how to replace the Sun.

Oh, and we already tried it 100 years ago, but we're just gonna do it again anyway...

I mean if you wanna destroy the Sun, you probably could because people are easily persuaded by the dream, but I can guarantee, the new Sun we create will be a HELL of a lot worse than the imperfect Sun we have now.

Capitalism probably suks because there's inequality, and that people are exploited, and that we are constantly bombarded with advertisements.... but I'd much rather live with those things, than the alternative. The alternative is literally hell on Earth. People starve to death and die.

ALSO, even if the alternative did work, it's still immoral. Because the people that work the hardest and smartest won't be entitled to the sweat of their brow. Everyone would be living off of them.

Like, if you somehow managed to destroy capitalism, what would you replace it with?

I'd seriously like to know.

Who's gonna control the means of production? Who's gonna control the wealth? How will it be distributed? And how is it going to be fair and just?

I mean if you say that you wanna replace it with Venus Project...
The Venus Project sounds like Stalin's Five Year Plan and we all know how that ended...