Alcoccoden and Hyleg

obsidianmineral

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
So, do you guys these things work? I used a chart as an example that has an AA Rodden rating. Marilyn Monroe was born on June 1st 1926 at 9:30 am on Los Angeles. Her Hyleg is her Sun, since it's a day chart and it's in the 11th house. Then, the Alcoccoden is Mercury. Mercury is in great essential condition and in a succedent house. We can judge that Mercury will give its greater years (76) and, since no malefic is aspecting it then that's it. She was supposed to live like 76 years. But she only lived 36 years. Even if you considered the Sun to be a malefic since Mercury is combust, and therefore take 19 years off, it would still be way off. Anyone care to explain?
 
S

Solar Flare

Banned
I'm very curious about this topic as well. I really can't explain why Marilyn Monroe died so young, you seem to be correct that the Sun is her Hyleg and Mercury is Alcochoden. I'm not sure I'd give Mercury its old years, probably mean years because it's combust and in a succeedent house. But it would still mean that she'd live 48 years. Her Mercury doesn't have any aspects unless you count aspects by sign but this way she'd have to live 53 years because while it squares her Mars in Pisces, it also trines her Jupiter in Aquarius and Venus in Aries... Well, I meeeean you could say that her Venus is weak by being in detriment (although in her own face) and Jupiter is weak because it's peregrine, while Mars is in his own terms (and in my opinion in triplicity) which in total should give 33 years (48 minus 15), but I don't think that's how it works. Even though 33 years is quite close to 36 years which she has actually lived, I doubt my explanation is correct.

Another thing I wonder is what house system is preferrable for finding Hyleg? What did ancients use? I think I've heard it was Alcabitius but I'm not sure. Also is using out-of-sign aspects to find Alcochoden acceptable? Using my own chart, I don't seem to have Hyleg with Alcabitius which means that I should be dead by now (died before the age 12), but I'm older than that and doing just fine. :happy: I have an out-of-sign aspect between my ascendant and its second almuten so maybe that's why...

By the way, I don't think Hyleg/Alcochoden can work if the cause of a person's death is suicide. Alcochoden shows protection from deadly life circumstances but you can kill yourself at any point of your life and I'm very doubtful that it can be predicted (not with this method at least). I'm also not sure if it's useful if you die from homicide. Just thoughts, you know. :ninja:
 
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obsidianmineral

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
Solar Flare said:
I'm very curious about this topic as well. I really can't explain why Marilyn Monroe died so young, you seem to be correct that the Sun is her Hyleg and Mercury is Alcochoden. I'm not sure I'd give Mercury its old years, probably mean years because it's combust and in a succeedent house. But it would still mean that she'd live 48 years. Her Mercury doesn't have any aspects unless you count aspects by sign but this way she'd have to live 53 years because while it squares her Mars in Pisces, it also trines her Jupiter in Aquarius and Venus in Aries... Well, I meeeean you could say that her Venus is weak by being in detriment (although in her own face) and Jupiter is weak because it's peregrine, while Mars is in his own terms (and in my opinion in triplicity) which in total should give 33 years (48 minus 15), but I don't think that's how it works. Even though 33 years is quite close to 36 years which she has actually lived, I doubt my explanation is correct.

Another thing I wonder is what house system is preferrable for finding Hyleg? What did ancients use? I think I've heard it was Alcabitius but I'm not sure. Also is using out-of-sign aspects to find Alcochoden acceptable? Using my own chart, I don't seem to have Hyleg with Alcabitius which means that I should be dead by now (died before the age 12), but I'm older than that and doing just fine. :happy: I have an out-of-sign aspect between my ascendant and its second almuten so maybe that's why...

By the way, I don't think Hyleg/Alcochoden can work if the cause of a person's death is suicide. Alcochoden shows protection from deadly life circumstances but you can kill yourself at any point of your life and I'm very doubtful that it can be predicted (not with this method at least). I'm also not sure if it's useful if you die from homicide. Just thoughts, you know. :ninja:
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Maybe cause it was a suicide? Monroe died of an overdose but she probably did it on purpose. Also, can I see your chart? I'm just new to this Alcochoden and Hyleg thing. The Alcochoden is the planet with the highest possible dignity in the place of the Hyleg right? Not necessarily the ruler of the sign, just the one with the highest?
 
S

Solar Flare

Banned
obsidianmineral said:
Maybe cause it was a suicide? Monroe died of an overdose but she probably did it on purpose. Also, can I see your chart? I'm just new to this Alcochoden and Hyleg thing. The Alcochoden is the planet with the highest possible dignity in the place of the Hyleg right? Not necessarily the ruler of the sign, just the one with the highest?
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Well, as far as I know, no one knows for sure if Marilyn's death was a suicide. If it was, then in my opinion Alcochoden isn't a trustworthy calculator of her lifetime. I think to calculate Hyleg/Alcochoden correctly, we need charts with a good Rodden rating and the certain cause of death which is NOT suicide. :)

Sorry, can't really show my chart now. :tongue: Got some reasons for that. Maybe later?

Yes, Alcochoden is the almuten of Hyleg which aspects the Hyleg. The last condition is obligatory! If your Sun is your Hyleg and is at 4 Capricorn, then you look at Saturn because it's the Sun's almuten. But if your Saturn is at 5 Aquarius, there's no aspect so you go to Mars because it's exalted in Capricorn and see if the Sun aspects it and so on. I hope you won't say "Oh, great, there's a semi-sextile between the Sun and Saturn so I guess it fits! :)" Nopp, only major aspects. To find almutens, I think Bonatti's table makes sense (domicile +5, exaltation +4, triplicity +3, terms +2, face +1) so use this. Using another example, if your Hyleg is at 2 Libra and it's a day chart, the almuten is actually Saturn, not Venus (exaltation + triplicity + terms), so you first look at Saturn and its aspects.

P.S. Oh yeah, it's a good question whether Hyleg can also be Alcochoden (in case of the Sun and the Moon). I can't say for certain, but in my opinion, yes, it can.
 
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obsidianmineral

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
Solar Flare said:
Well, as far as I know, no one knows for sure if Marilyn's death was a suicide. If it was, then in my opinion Alcochoden isn't a trustworthy calculator of her lifetime. I think to calculate Hyleg/Alcochoden correctly, we need charts with a good Rodden rating and the certain cause of death which is NOT suicide. :)

Sorry, can't really show my chart now. :tongue: Got some reasons for that. Maybe later?

Yes, Alcochoden is the almuten of Hyleg which aspects the Hyleg. The last condition is obligatory! If your Sun is your Hyleg and is at 4 Capricorn, then you look at Saturn because it's the Sun's almuten. But if your Saturn is at 5 Aquarius, there's no aspect so you go to Mars because it's exalted in Capricorn and see if the Sun aspects it and so on. I hope you won't say "Oh, great, there's a semi-sextile between the Sun and Saturn so I guess it fits! :)" Nopp, only major aspects. To find almutens, I think Bonatti's table makes sense (domicile +5, exaltation +4, triplicity +3, terms +2, face +1) so use this. Using another example, if your Hyleg is at 2 Libra and it's a day chart, the almuten is actually Saturn, not Venus (exaltation + triplicity + terms), so you first look at Saturn and its aspects.

P.S. Oh yeah, it's a good question whether Hyleg can also be Alcochoden (in case of the Sun and the Moon). I can't say for certain, but in my opinion, yes, it can.
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According to Ptolemy and some other authors, the Sun and the Moon could be both the Hyleg and Alcochoden. I mean, if it weren't the case, then why would you have a table of the years a planet can give where you actually list the greater years of the Sun and Moon? I believe that if you, say, have a Moon in Taurus as Hyleg and also in its triplicity then it's both the hyleg and the alcochoden.

Also, what do you think of the North and South node when considering the years? I've read somewhere that a conjunction to the NN amplifies the years of the planet up to 125%, while the latter reduces it by a fourth of its years.

And finally, what criteria should one follow to decide how many years a planet gives? I've seen multiple times that a cadent planet doesn't necessarily give its lower years, a succedent its middle and an angular its greater years. I think it'd suit best to consider all the possible dignities beside that one, as in essential dignities, sect, speed, orientation, etc.


If I were to put it into a guide, I'd say:

Cadents give their lower years only if in detriment or fall. I think this is fair, considering how not many people die at these ages. So it would be considered rare. If you considered a peregrine planet to give its lower years, I'd say a lot more people would have died at that age by now.

So,

IF CADENT

- Lower years if in detriment or fall

- Middle years if peregrine, exaltation, triplicity, term, face or rulership

- Possibly greater years in special cases where a planet is very much dignified both essentially and accidentally with the exception of it being cadent. Like a Mars in Scorpio in hayz (triplicity and rulership), fast, direct, in sect, in its house of joy, etc.

IF SUCCEDENT

- Lower years if in detriment, fall or peregrine while also in other kind of debility such as out of sect, slow, retrograde, in via combusta (if Moon), etc. I'd say it a planet would give its lower years here if it's not only damaged by fall or detriment, but also by being peregrine and out of sect and slow. You need to have a good bunch of debilities here to say it's giving its lower years.

- Middle years if only in one essential debility (detriment, fall, peregrine) and if in face, terms and triplicity.

- Greater years if in rulership or in exaltation and direct.

IF ANGULAR

- Lower years: The opposite of the greater years in a cadent house. I'd say you can get the lower years of an angular planet if in an extraordinarily bad condition, such as being retrograde, slow, out of sect, in ex cond, detriment/fall and peregrine, etc. However, I think the only exception to this is when the planet is conjunct a cusp of an angle, as its accidental strength is pushed even farther, in which case it'd give its middle years.

- Middle years: If the planet is in detriment/fall with some other debility.

- Greater years: If in detriment/fall but saved by other essential dignities such as triplicity. From peregrine onwards. Any kind of strength here makes it give its greater years.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
obsidianmineral said:
According to Ptolemy and some other authors, the Sun and the Moon could be both the Hyleg and Alcochoden. I mean, if it weren't the case, then why would you have a table of the years a planet can give where you actually list the greater years of the Sun and Moon? I believe that if you, say, have a Moon in Taurus as Hyleg and also in its triplicity then it's both the hyleg and the alcochoden.

Also, what do you think of the North and South node when considering the years? I've read somewhere that a conjunction to the NN amplifies the years of the planet up to 125%, while the latter reduces it by a fourth of its years.

And finally, what criteria should one follow to decide how many years a planet gives? I've seen multiple times that a cadent planet doesn't necessarily give its lower years, a succedent its middle and an angular its greater years. I think it'd suit best to consider all the possible dignities beside that one, as in essential dignities, sect, speed, orientation, etc.


If I were to put it into a guide, I'd say:

Cadents give their lower years only if in detriment or fall. I think this is fair, considering how not many people die at these ages. So it would be considered rare. If you considered a peregrine planet to give its lower years, I'd say a lot more people would have died at that age by now.

So,

IF CADENT

- Lower years if in detriment or fall

- Middle years if peregrine, exaltation, triplicity, term, face or rulership

- Possibly greater years in special cases where a planet is very much dignified both essentially and accidentally with the exception of it being cadent. Like a Mars in Scorpio in hayz (triplicity and rulership), fast, direct, in sect, in its house of joy, etc.

IF SUCCEDENT

- Lower years if in detriment, fall or peregrine while also in other kind of debility such as out of sect, slow, retrograde, in via combusta (if Moon), etc. I'd say it a planet would give its lower years here if it's not only damaged by fall or detriment, but also by being peregrine and out of sect and slow. You need to have a good bunch of debilities here to say it's giving its lower years.

- Middle years if only in one essential debility (detriment, fall, peregrine) and if in face, terms and triplicity.

- Greater years if in rulership or in exaltation and direct.

IF ANGULAR

- Lower years: The opposite of the greater years in a cadent house. I'd say you can get the lower years of an angular planet if in an extraordinarily bad condition, such as being retrograde, slow, out of sect, in ex cond, detriment/fall and peregrine, etc. However, I think the only exception to this is when the planet is conjunct a cusp of an angle, as its accidental strength is pushed even farther, in which case it'd give its middle years.

- Middle years: If the planet is in detriment/fall with some other debility.

- Greater years: If in detriment/fall but saved by other essential dignities such as triplicity. From peregrine onwards. Any kind of strength here makes it give its greater years.
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THE HYLEG AND ALCOCCODEN
http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf
article pdf by Bernadette Brady :smile:
 
Senecar

Senecar

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
dr. farr has frequently stated that
IT IS THE TOTALITY OF THE TESTIMONIES :smile:
and not solely transits
or one particular aspect
that must be studied
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Yeah that's what I was saying. I am not saying it's the "transits" only, but with other factors and also with "transits" together :)
 
S

Solar Flare

Banned
obsidianmineral said:
According to Ptolemy and some other authors, the Sun and the Moon could be both the Hyleg and Alcochoden. I mean, if it weren't the case, then why would you have a table of the years a planet can give where you actually list the greater years of the Sun and Moon? I believe that if you, say, have a Moon in Taurus as Hyleg and also in its triplicity then it's both the hyleg and the alcochoden.

Also, what do you think of the North and South node when considering the years? I've read somewhere that a conjunction to the NN amplifies the years of the planet up to 125%, while the latter reduces it by a fourth of its years.

And finally, what criteria should one follow to decide how many years a planet gives? I've seen multiple times that a cadent planet doesn't necessarily give its lower years, a succedent its middle and an angular its greater years. I think it'd suit best to consider all the possible dignities beside that one, as in essential dignities, sect, speed, orientation, etc.


If I were to put it into a guide, I'd say:

Cadents give their lower years only if in detriment or fall. I think this is fair, considering how not many people die at these ages. So it would be considered rare. If you considered a peregrine planet to give its lower years, I'd say a lot more people would have died at that age by now.

So,

IF CADENT

- Lower years if in detriment or fall

- Middle years if peregrine, exaltation, triplicity, term, face or rulership

- Possibly greater years in special cases where a planet is very much dignified both essentially and accidentally with the exception of it being cadent. Like a Mars in Scorpio in hayz (triplicity and rulership), fast, direct, in sect, in its house of joy, etc.

IF SUCCEDENT

- Lower years if in detriment, fall or peregrine while also in other kind of debility such as out of sect, slow, retrograde, in via combusta (if Moon), etc. I'd say it a planet would give its lower years here if it's not only damaged by fall or detriment, but also by being peregrine and out of sect and slow. You need to have a good bunch of debilities here to say it's giving its lower years.

- Middle years if only in one essential debility (detriment, fall, peregrine) and if in face, terms and triplicity.

- Greater years if in rulership or in exaltation and direct.

IF ANGULAR

- Lower years: The opposite of the greater years in a cadent house. I'd say you can get the lower years of an angular planet if in an extraordinarily bad condition, such as being retrograde, slow, out of sect, in ex cond, detriment/fall and peregrine, etc. However, I think the only exception to this is when the planet is conjunct a cusp of an angle, as its accidental strength is pushed even farther, in which case it'd give its middle years.

- Middle years: If the planet is in detriment/fall with some other debility.

- Greater years: If in detriment/fall but saved by other essential dignities such as triplicity. From peregrine onwards. Any kind of strength here makes it give its greater years.
Click to expand...

It seems like you’re familiar with this technique. :) Having read good books on that and all. I mean, yeah, I guess you’re right that Hyleg can be Alcochoden because there would be no point in old years of the Sun and the Moon. I’ve tried to imagine a chart where one of the luminaries could be Alcochoden and not Hyleg and get old years at the same time but I failed to. I guess it really is impossible for the Sun and the Moon to get old years not being Hyleg. I’ve just seen someone’s post who said that he/she hasn’t had any luck with determining longevity counting Hyleg as Alcochoden so that’s why I was cautious when addressing this.

I haven’t thought about nodes to add or subtract some years! I guess this idea makes sense. But most of the time in traditional literature I’ve seen only the usual benefic/malefic planets are used and no nodes so that’s a very good question.

Regarding your ideas of determining if you should give old, mean or least years, ultimately the most important points are essential dignities and angularity. I don’t think I understand why you consider a peregrine planet much better than a planet in fall or detriment, a peregrine planet lacks any essential dignity and is therefore very weak essentially. If Alcochoden is peregrine, in fall or in detriment I don’t think it can get old years under any circumstances. Also in my opinion some things like sect, house of joy, planetary speed, via combusta etc. are very miniscule considerations for this technique and should be omitted. However, retrogradation and combustion should leave an important mark and if Alcochoden is either retrograde or combust (or both) but angular and very essentially dignified, I don’t think it can possibly get old years, mean years maximum. I like that you brought up Hayz, I think it can potentially be very important but I’m not sure (by the way, as far as I know, ex conditione is not a traditional term and was created not long ago by a traditional astrologer).

Also from what I know, Hyleg/Alcochoden technique cannot show when you die ultimately, it shows till what age and time you’re protected. So you CAN live longer, but you SHOULDN’T live less than what your Alcochoden tells you. For this reason it makes sense why nowadays people in developed countries live longer than before, it’s not because this technique has always been incorrect or is somehow not applicable today, it’s the medicine you can thank for making you live longer than you may have without it. But it’s not Alcochoden protecting you, it’s medicines and doctors taking care of you.

By the way, I'd be glad if you took some celebrities who have died with a definite time of birth and tried to analyze their longevity using this technique and then shared your results. :wink:
 
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