Grand Cross?

Hi
Can someone help me interpret this chart....is there really a Grand Cross Configuration? And what exactly does it mean?

Thanks,
Vesta

It's difficult to tell with the chart you posted, since it seems to include aspects to the major angles, which may naturally form a Grand-Cross in some natal charts.

However, there is at least one planet conjunct each of the major angles, so this very well may be a Grand Cross Configuration. The Moon's conjunction to the Ascendant appears to be a bit loose, but Neptune is not tightly conjunct the Midheaven either, and I believe both planets are within orb of a square aspect. The question then becomes if Neptune is within orb of a square aspect with the Saturn-Jupiter conjunction and if the Moon is within orb of a square aspect with the Sun-Mercury conjunction.

It would really help if you could provide the natal data so I could enter it into Astrodienst and see the exact degree of each of the planets possibly involved in this configuration.

It is also worth noting that just because two planets are conjunct each other, the both may not be involved in the configuration if one is not within orb of the square aspect with another. So it is possible, although it seems unlikely with this chart, that only Saturn and not Jupiter would be involved in the configuration; the same could also apply with the Sun or Mercury.

Arian Maverick

P.S. Do you have the exact time of birth of the native, or did you use use the Aries Point to create a natural chart?

Hi Arian,

The birth data for this person is June 24, 1981 in Montreal Canada at 12h45am.

Regards,
Vesta

Grand Cross, to Vesta

Vesta,

Yes, this is a Grand Cross. A Grand Cross is an aspect that forces the person to handle their life "on four sides"...so there is no escape in avoiding any issues, since avoiding one issue simply brings up another issue. In the case of this Grand Cross it is between Self (Ascendant), Others (Descendant), Outer World (Midheaven), and Inner World (IC). The challenge is to work on all these issues at the same time. The Grand Cross is a very great challenge, but working on all these issues results in very strong energy in the person.

Strongly,

Tim

it never occured to me to think of the square angles as a grand cross. but, this pattern would be very natural and dynamic.

as wilsontc points out, this represents a challenge to focus on the needs of self, others, inner motivations, and outside expectations.

Vesta, would you say that this person seems pulled in many, many directions, and tends to give too much of herself?

The angles in this chart are very unique. This is honestly the first natal chart I've seen where the 4 angles are not only in a perfect cross, but all on Aries point (0 degrees of cardinal signs) degrees.

I too am interested in how this might manifest. The angles all on the cardinal points seems to indicate a strong drive to "take action", as the cardinal signs revolve around initiation of actions. Starting things is the name of the game with the cardinal signs.

There is a heavy focus on the IC and Descendant; obviously because of the planetary conjunctions, but this is repeated in several other ways. There is an imbalance towards Water and Air, elements of the 4th and 7th house, respectively (F:1 E:0 A:5 W:4). A strong relationship focus (7th house concept) is shown by the Sun at the Venus/Mars midpoint.

This would seem to drive this individuals need for action (expression of the cardinal cross) towards relationships involving strong feelings and emotions.

The angles in this chart are very unique.

Click to expand...

absolutely !!! Gamatria at it's finest conicidence ... a localized equinox of sorts(if that's the right term).

Could you have picked this place/time combination ???

What happened at this time ?? (below)





What will happen here .... is a chance for a new life , a fresh start ...




I have a chart with 2 progressed eclipse's , Lunar @ 31-32yo Solar @ 45-46yo ....so-o ..... i'm dead interested in hearing about what happened in Chart #1


I , somehow , get the feeling this person is creative after some fashion ...... perhaps "creative illusions" ??

the 1st progressed eclipse lines up with the conviction of the Kiddie-**** crew in Belguim .... Marc Detroux

What happened in your life at this time Vesta ??

I'm trying to confirm the degree of the Asc ....

The angles in this chart are very unique. This is honestly the first natal chart I've seen where the 4 angles are not only in a perfect cross, but all on Aries point (0 degrees of cardinal signs) degrees.

I too am interested in how this might manifest. The angles all on the cardinal points seems to indicate a strong drive to "take action", as the cardinal signs revolve around initiation of actions. Starting things is the name of the game with the cardinal signs.

Click to expand...

How accurate is the time of birth? My major angles are all conjunct Vesta's and form a similar cardinal cross (albeit not quite as exact, but close), so I know from experience that a few minutes can make a major difference in the chart of an individual whose angles are on the cusp of two signs of fast ascension. Even if this is the time recorded on the birth certificate, you may wish to look into chart rectification to solve the eternal dilemma--Pisces or Aries, Sagittarius or Capricorn?

I have finally created this chart on Astrodienst and am no longer as certain that the planets alone form a Grand Cross; although all four planets/groups of planets form square aspects to each other, the twelfth house Pisces Moon does not make an opposition to the seventh house Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. The major angles undoubtedly form a Grand Cross to each other, though.

Arian Maverick

P.S. !3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*, how did you come up with these specific dates? The first progressed chart appears to be the time of the progressed Full Moon while the second progressed chart appears to be the time of the progressed New Moon, but are there other less obvious indicators that I have missed? Also, how would these progressed charts verify the birth time?

these are eclipses


I'm a man with eclipses and astrologers all over my entire life

I saw the relative position of the node , looked at the ephemeris ( i also have eclipse tables) .

My Mum showed me how to calculate charts (&prog's/transits) Before i went to High School.

For me , it was fish in a barrel ..... calc a year to each degree of seperation between the Sun and the Node and voila

you can cheat and just look (in the ephemeris) at where the next full moon(s) & new moon(s) hit ...... and do the progressed chart .....


on www.astro I do this ....
to bring it "exact" i just move the date(for the calc of the prog) roughly 1 month for each degree i wish to "advance/decrement" the degree of the moon.

I was taught ......
the "good ole" ..... simple math from the ephemeris..... let me know , i can explain it in gripping detail



PS let me know if i'm messing up with my charts ...too big ... wrong format ...please !!!

forgivee me if i seem arrogant here ...... it's not intentional ...... that was a serious question for Vesta , i'm trying to stay a little light ...... i like the kite in 2018 though .....[wink]

Of course the Sun must be applying to node close enough to progress over it during the life of the native ...... being born slightly after just don't cut it .... being born in the midst of "a cycle" has a long history .... this is extrodinary in there are more (obviously) who get it by progression than Natally.

Those Eclipse Natives grow up with it .... eventful ?? yes ....but a part of life.

Those Progeressing to an eclipse ??? welll , what can i say .... "Physician heal thyself" ?? doesn't quite cut it ..... so-o when i see an eclipse chart ...... i go !!!

hence my interest and question.

PS .... call me "leo" or LLT

Leo_lunar_tick (incognito)

Arian !!!

Pull out your "aspect table for 1981 ..... 17th July .... is the first chart , the aspects that day are for that year ..... run the 2004 transits over those positions in the "P"chart

See the squares , the eclipse , the yod being touched off

the Pmoon changes sign to Aquarius

then Venus/Chiron (early hours 18th)

followed by Mars entering Cancer (where it is now , ... hmmmm)

then Venus trine Neppy ....

Curious minds want to know


Likewise the 31st July 1981 ... and the transits for 2018 .....

There is NO grand cross in that chart. Almost everyone has a cross between the asc/desc/ic/mc because they're all opposite angles. Everyone except people who have their IC/MC fall in the 3rd/9th houses have these crossings. This separates the chart into quadrants and denotes different areas of one's life. They're opposite because they denote opposite things, for example, the ascendant being oneself and the descendant being all outside relationships that one (asc) forms with others (desc).

Anyway, the person does have a t-square between Moon in Pisces, Neptune in Sagittarius, and Mars in Gemini. They are all mutable, which means they all square one another and because they are missing a fourth planet which would form them into a Grand Cross, or a Grand Square (same thing), they only form a t-square (3 planets which square to form a T). Don't get me wrong, it's a VEEEEEERY stressful combo, especially with the Moon squaring Mars. Lots of folks have t-squares, everyone has baggage..

Catatonia

Catatonia,

I was actually thinking along similar lines at first, but I believe we all jumped on the "Grand Cross" formed by the major angles of the chart because the Ascendant/Descendant and Midheaven/Nadir axes are almost exactly perpendicular to each other and conjunct the Aries Point to boot--pretty cool

I agree, though; we all have our own baggage to carry. What we call the specific configurations of energy in our individual natal charts is not nearly as important as how we deal with and express this energy...

Arian Maverick

P.S. I will respond to your posts eventually, LLT; I probably shouldn't even be here now, but I can't help but check the progress of this thread even as I should be doing work for school

Catatonia said:

There is NO grand cross in that chart. Almost everyone has a cross between the asc/desc/ic/mc because they're all opposite angles. Everyone except people who have their IC/MC fall in the 3rd/9th houses have these crossings. This separates the chart into quadrants and denotes different areas of one's life. They're opposite because they denote opposite things, for example, the ascendant being oneself and the descendant being all outside relationships that one (asc) forms with others (desc).

Anyway, the person does have a t-square between Moon in Pisces, Neptune in Sagittarius, and Mars in Gemini. They are all mutable, which means they all square one another and because they are missing a fourth planet which would form them into a Grand Cross, or a Grand Square (same thing), they only form a t-square (3 planets which square to form a T). Don't get me wrong, it's a VEEEEEERY stressful combo, especially with the Moon squaring Mars. Lots of folks have t-squares, everyone has baggage..

Catatonia

Click to expand...

agreed .....

...... there is a spot around 20deg virgo (a mid point between the Neptune(chart ruler)& Venus) that seems to fire the "T" square .... The Quincunx Pluto to Chiron , The node applying to Trine the Asc , Mercury closer than 5deg to the Sun.

Saturn/Jupiter , Asc/Desc , Node.

Catatonia said:

There is NO grand cross in that chart. Almost everyone has a cross between the asc/desc/ic/mc because they're all opposite angles.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing, but the angles are fairly unique in this chart.

especially with the Moon squaring Mars.

Click to expand...

and MO/MA=Nodes as well!

Also, how would these progressed charts verify the birth time?

Click to expand...

1>Progressed moon moves a degree every month (give or take)

[consider also that the Pmoon and Nsaturn(transiting) travel as a pair]

2>N-Asc (aka "birth time) changes degree every 4 mins ..... you change the Asc ..... you move the "timing" of the progressed aspect.

[think about this in terms of as above so below , a year equals a day , forwards/backwards , "the ancient stuff" ...... e.g. 2 folks born on the approach to the eclipse pt.(node) ...... born on consecutive days ...... the "younger" of the two will experience the Prog'd aspect "One Year" earlier ...... simple math tell us that if the difference is 12 hrs / half day then prog'd diff = 6 months ; if 6 hours diff Natal then 3 months .......]

3>Lay this alongside the rest of the chart as a whole .... do the calc's and ask the question What ??? ...... not .... When ??? (again i do this because IMHO it works -what can i say - it follows the night/day ; above/below ;forwards/backwards thingamywhatsamacallitstuff )

4> Allow yourself what Cornelius describes as "the moment of astrology" to occur [smile]


So-o the aspects surrounding this particular eclipse (17jul81) can be timed in the life of the native.... they will co-incide ONLY when the Asc(BT) is correct .....

i think it wise to say here that this all works for me because i only allow orbs in the Natal Chart .... let me repeat that ..... no orbs for transits or progressions ..... it's a whole new thread so i will resist

briefly ... i like the ancients ....& .... believe that

"alas dear petronius , perhaps the fault lies not in the stars but in ourselves"

........ the ultimate "physician heal thyself" hmmmm ??

I don't see a GC here. There is a powerful T-square with Sun Moon and Pluto, but no Grand Cross. In all cases with powerful aspects like these I always look for the "safety valve" planets, in this case Uranus, which is in beautiful trine to Sun and sextile Moon. Always however Sun opposition Moon has a wildly interesting life ...

So I'm a bit lost as to where the GC is..