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  #1  
Unread 04-30-2006, 04:42 AM
5th 5th is offline
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[HELP] Strange Mars

Hi all, I'm new coming.
I have a quetion. 1 degree leo mars and 30 degree libra saturn-moon conjuction forms square aspect. Square aspect is 90 degrees apart & 3 signs apart. But leo and libra is 2 signs apart. Is it still square aspect?
Thanks!


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  #2  
Unread 04-30-2006, 09:55 AM
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Interesting question 5th!
The answer is no!

The nature of the aspects is determined by the mutual relations between the signs where both planets are.
Why is for example a square a sharp conflict aspect?While it is always been formed by planets in two signs which are in mutual conflicting elements.For example:is planet A in a firesign,planet B is 90 degrees,so 3 signs further,in a watersign.The relation is water and fire!That does not work well,cause ór the water extuingishes the fire,ór the fire heats up the fire to steam.Examples:Aries and Cancer,Leo and Scorpio,Sagittarius and Pisces.
The elements earth and fire don't harmonise eather:the earth extuingishes the fire or the fire bakes the earth to stone.Examples:Taurus and Leo,Virgo and Sagittarius,Capricorn and Aries.
Same for air and earth;air blows away the earth or the earths covers the air which leads to suffocation.Examples:Gemini and Virgo,Libra and Capricorn,Aquarius and Taurus.
Finally water and air will give a stormy sea or showers!For example Cancer and Libra,Scorpio and Aquarius,Pisces and Gemini.

An aspect is only an aspect,if the signs in which the planets are,make that aspect
Even if their mutual distance is exactly 90 degrees,but their signs don't make that square,that angle is not valid as a square.
It isn't about the number of degrees according to Cocker,but about the difference of the nature of the elements.

Why is the trine the most harmonic aspect?While the planets are in the same element!

5th,look for yourself how the relation between the elements are with a sextile and an opposition.

And you can look up the astrological meaning of Mars square Moon/Saturn and if it is valid to you.I am pretty convinced it is not!

Welcome to the forum!
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Unread 04-30-2006, 11:21 AM
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Thanks for your wise answer and warm welcome, johan! You're so kind.
I know trine and sextile are harmony, square and opposite are not. You told me why now. When I read about the features of Mars-Moon & Mars-Saturn, I can't beleive it's features of my character. It's completely different from my character and of course unacceptable. But their degree position and sign relation seems conflict. If it is niether square nor sextile, what is it on earth? Can I take it as no aspect exist? Or sth else?
And I think the 1 degree and 30 degree position is somewhat special. Does it strengthen or weaken the planet? Mars in fire sign should be strong, but 1 degree Leo Mars is the transform from weak (Cancer) to strong, it's strange; Libra is ruled by Venus, and Venus should be somewhat similar as Moon for their loving nature, and Moon in 30 degree Libra is from strong to weak (Scorpio) , another strange degree, ahaa? To Saturn, the same, from its exaltation Libra to Scorpio, which is much weakened. Oh, so strange!
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Unread 04-30-2006, 02:39 PM
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No, it is a square. It cannot be anything else, and there's no such thing as "no aspect at all" in astrology. So I am afraid Johan, while very enthusiastic, is not quite correct. Signs are very, very important...well, essential to understanding aspects, but sign alone doesn't define an aspect. Degrees and the actual mathematical angle they form counts too. Major aspects have wider orbs than minor ones, so this does allow from time to time for aspects to form outside of the normal signs difference associated with that aspect.

Let's say you have a square within orb but outside of sign. It is a square - it is within the orb that creates that specific 90 degree tension associated with that square. However, the tension between these two signs would not manifest the same as if you had two signs with the same modality, i.e. cardinal, fixed, or mutable. With the same modality within a squaring, planets are on more even footing. When you have mixed modality, one sign usually has a slight advantage, causing the other sign to be more afflicted by the tension of the square. Normally, fixed succumbs to cardinal, and mutable succumbs to either cardinal or fixed.

However, I need to point out to a couple of nuances to this.

First off, in regards to your square, seeing the 30th degree is also the 0 degree of the following sign, there should be no confusion about this here. You can intrepret this as a square between Leo and Scorpio. You can even include your Pluto, because it is orb conjunct with your Saturn and moon, because conjunct planets act together always, regardless of difference in sign. It's just there will be some Libran influence on that end of this square. Also, there's going to be some amount of "fated" energy due to be the 29th degree (you may wish to do some reading up on that). Seeing that end of this square combines a duo sign influence plus the 29th degree, it will be an atypical square anyhow. Atypical, but still a square.

The other thing -that is not directly related to your chart at the moment, but I wish to clarify, seeing I've brought it up before in other threads - is regarding aspect configurations. Now with a specific type of aspect configuration that relies both on aspects and modality, let's say a mutable t-square, you do need to have both the right orbs and the right modality. In these cases with configurations, modality (or element, as with grand trines, or polarity, as with multiple oppisitions) is perhaps more important that precise orbs. If you have a case where you have a configuration that lacks the right modality, element or polarity, you still would have a configuration - just an atypical one that would not manifest in the same way as the the "standard" configurations.

I know this is a lot of info, but I hope this helps.
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  #5  
Unread 04-30-2006, 02:56 PM
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ANother thing I wish to mention:

While the fact that the standard, "cookie-cutter" interpretations you have seen for isolated Mars-Sat and Mars-moon squares may not "feel" right to you right off the bat, I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. These interpretations do tend to be overly genrealized, and with such a complicated aspect as this one, you may find it too easy to think they don't apply to you. But I must encourage you to keep an broader mindset about this, as these interpreations don't stem from nothing.

It could be a number of things that may be preventing you from seeing how you do manifest some of those traits:

- planets on the 20th degree don't always manifest is obvlious ways, and it often takes the native time and growth to become more aware of their influence

- this apsect involves too very subjective and vulnerable personal planets (Mars and moon) with one very critical and defensive planet (Saturn - actually, two, if you include your Pluto by conjunction). You are simply going to find it hard to be objective with this aspect. Whenever anything touches this aspect that makes either Mars or moon feel threaten, Saturn will come in a get dismissive or criticial (i.e., words liek "unacceptable" might pop up). Add Plutonian energy to that, and you may find you get rather resentful when you feel "exposed" in ways that make you uncomfortable.

- Moreover, this aspect involves your ASC. This means it has a lot or weight in terms of your self image. With Saturn squaring you ASC, you may find it very diffciult to confront attributes about yourself that you dislike without feeling a severe blown to your sense of self-worth. Saturn, again, tends to be dismissive or critical with defensive, so be mindful if you find yourself acting in those ways.

- Lastly, this is a tense aspect. Add that to everything else above, and you can understand why astrolgoers often say squares are challenging aspects. They're not bad, but they do require us to work. There's a lot of growth to be found in this particular aspect that you have , and you should not resist it, even if it is uncomfortable. Therefore, resist closing your mind to new insight or information, even if at first it doesn't "feel" right.
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Unread 04-30-2006, 03:06 PM
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Both are right

5th,

To confuse things even further , both Lunar and Johan are correct! Planets can be in aspect by SIGN and by DEGREE. Aspects by sign (which Johan mentions) are usually associated with ancient/traditional astrology, which usually does not recognize aspects by degree. Modern astrology usually focuses on aspect by degree (which Lunar mentions), but also gives some mention of the older, traditional aspect by sign method. This usually is done by mentioning the degree as being MOST important (e.g., a square by degree IS a square) but that the sign can have SOME effect (e.g., a square by degree and sign is stronger than a square by degree only). Personally, this modern astrological method makes the most sense to me...but the final decision is up to you!

Giving both sides,

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  #7  
Unread 04-30-2006, 05:39 PM
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Signs are very, very important...well, essential to understanding aspects, but sign alone doesn't define an aspect. Degrees and the actual mathematical angle they form counts too.

This usually is done by mentioning the degree as being MOST important (e.g., a square by degree IS a square) but that the sign can have SOME effect (e.g., a square by degree and sign is stronger than a square by degree only). Personally, this modern astrological method makes the most sense to me...


These are the views of Lunar and Tim,but I disagree.A square is a square,while the signs belong to elements who are not going along together.It's more the other way around of what Lunar says:the mathematical angle alone doesn't define the aspect,but the signs(and the elements to which these signs belong)count too,this is essential for the validation of the square!And it is not a traditional way of astrology versus a modern way of astrology,like Tim says,it just don't work as a square.

And no,it isn't a sextile eather,Mars and Moon/Saturn are just unaspected.

How important and decisive the signs are,is shown by this:When a planet,still in the same house,enters the sign that is also on the cusp of the next house,this planet starts to show his influence in that next house,even if the planet is not yet in that next house-dragged along by that sign in that house.

Sorry to be so defensive on this matter,but this issue of elements and signs and their relation to aspects are very essential in my opinion,as shown by you not feeling this square is valid.
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  #8  
Unread 05-01-2006, 02:07 AM
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Thanks for all replies!

There's too much information, I feel a little puzzled, ahaa...

Lunar Pisces

Your reply is very helpful, I try to understand it. Now I even couldn't know whether it's a fate or illusion that square forms as you say, but obviously I feel the stress of Moon-Saturn-Pluto conjunction because it makes me very doubtful or easy-broken to relations, and that seems more related to Libran things but not Scorpion things. When it comes to relations, a mingle of Libran & Scorpion feel can be seen, but more like Libran. Also Moon refers to mother, the image of her is somewhat difficlut to me. Quite sad, ahaa? But not bad to extreme, at least we leave together. And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away. The discord of relations is what I really hate for, that's all.

wilsontc

You're so kind. I don't want to say whether it's a right or wrong square aspect, but only an aspect whether real or dreamy. Maybe I'm so dreamy, haa? Because NOW the Pluto is in conjunction to my Neptune, another sad aspect...

johan

Now I feel the aspect doesn't exist, but like Lunar Pisces said, I'm not sure how I feel tomorrow. Maybe the aspect is always there but I can't feel it obviously, that's even much better than it does not exit, isn't it?
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  #9  
Unread 05-01-2006, 03:42 AM
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Lunar Pisces

There are aspect configurations as you mentioned, that's interesting. If consider MC as planet, my chart may include some common aspect configurations such as Stellium, Multiple opposition, T-Square, Grand Trine, Kite, Greater Octile Triangle, Rectangle. And MC is in most of them, isn't it? Maybe MC is somewhat special for me... :?:
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  #10  
Unread 05-01-2006, 04:41 AM
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Special situation

5th,

Something else to consider is you have Mars (being, also action) trine (energy goes very easily with) Jupiter (expansion) AND Mars square (energy needs to be combined with) Saturn (duty, also structure). This suggests you can take expansive AND structured actions at the same time. This could be another reason why you can always find "another way" to take actions.

Looking at other things in your chart,

Tim
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Unread 05-01-2006, 06:27 AM
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Thanks, wilsontc, you're right, I should notice other things about it.

Mars also have two trines, but I'm blind to it! Maybe easy to get is easy to forget, ahaa? ASC conjunction works out obviously. It seems that I'm LONGLASTING in work & play. AND the trines get me creative in my actions. Though my energy is powerful, it's also easy to control at the same time.

Mars conjunct ASC and rule MC at the same time. MC ruler is important in one's chart. Oh Mars! Strange...
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  #12  
Unread 05-01-2006, 07:17 AM
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Well,there is so much to say about a chart,and rulers of houses are also interesting.Not to mention the difference between applying and separating aspects!
You will have to found out for yourself if the square works!
About rulers of houses.I know a woman who has Taurus H6,and Venus is in H6.She is a hair-dresser(ruler of 6(daily work,profession)!
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  #13  
Unread 05-01-2006, 07:54 AM
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Venus in Taurus is good. but in H6 is not so good, it's like Venus in Virgo and fall.

So her Venus, if in Taurus though H6, should still be very good. H6 is strengthened then, cause Venus in her ruler sign! And her health condition should be well, art related job is also indicated.

And my venus is in Virgo to fall but in H2, like in Taurus. It's still quite weak. Maybe the sign is more influentual than house? I don't know. In the age ruled by Venus, I was very unhappy. And when it comes to Sun age, huge difference occurs. Sun in ruler sign and exaltation house. Thanks to my Sun~~
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Unread 05-01-2006, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5th
I feel the stress of Moon-Saturn-Pluto conjunction because it makes me very doubtful or easy-broken to relations, and that seems more related to Libran things but not Scorpion things. When it comes to relations, a mingle of Libran & Scorpion feel can be seen, but more like Libran. Also Moon refers to mother, the image of her is somewhat difficlut to me. Quite sad, ahaa? But not bad to extreme, at least we leave together. And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away. The discord of relations is what I really hate for, that's all.
I'm of the school of thought that counts out of sign aspects legitimate, especially those as close as your Mars to Moon-Saturn-Pluto. What you write above would seem to confirm that you DO feel the tension of this square aspect within yourself. The Moon represents not only the image you carry of your mother, who might be a quiet but overpowering force AS ARE YOU, but also how you react in general to outer influences. Saturn with separating Moon (i.e. moon in front) is one of respect towards and, in Libra, agreement with one's elders and/or authority and/or traditional patterns; with Pluto this is deeply ingrained within a generation of persons trying to alter those patterns in order to express their own thoughts and ideas freely.
Mars in Leo can show very self-ish ( in its positive sense), dominant traits with a tendancy to flare up and dramatise situations, but in the 12th house this is difficult to express outwardly. Excellent for theatre, acting, or behind the scene directorship but difficult to contain in everyday situations. The Moon-Saturn-Pluto may subtley but forcibly keep this tendancy under control by showing the other and preferable side of any situation. Yet one needs Mars' energy to actively express one's self and this is especially so for children attempting to find their own way in the world. Add to this that you are a 1st house Sun in Leo, and it would seem that you will need to seek and find (also 12th house!) that energy in order to meet and compete with the power inherent in the Pluto-Moon-Saturn aspect.

If you do not recognise such a challenge within yourself, then an out of sign aspect means less than I thought it did, having lived my whole life with an out of sign Saturn-Neptune square that has defined the difference between, as well as combination of, elusiveness and reality

F.
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Unread 05-01-2006, 09:56 AM
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Thanks Frisiangal for your professional reply and insight. Very helpful!

My Mars seemed so poor, both in H12--the poor house for Mars, and square to Moon-Saturn-Pluto Stellium (overpowering? maybe overwhelming better). Now I don't know how to deal with my next coming Mars age! Bless me to survive~~~ I'm unprepared!

This unpleasant Stellium also indicates the inner character of myself, though. That's why I'm precocious, understanding to others' thought but trying to conceal my own thoughts. It also makes me caculate too much and finally hard to express them all. I can't image what such Stellium square Mars comes out! It must be very poor?! But at least I'm proud of my icily cool and self-control. From this point, the square seems overpowering, too.

If you do not recognise such a challenge within yourself, then an out of sign aspect means less than I thought it did, having lived my whole life with an out of sign Saturn-Neptune square that has defined the difference between, as well as combination of, elusiveness and reality

Well, can I take "an out of sign aspect" as aspect without sign modality? :?:

If it is, your square should be similar condition to mine, isn't it? Then I'll look into my square and hope to realize the turth.

By the way, Mars has conjuction to fixed star ALUDRA, which contacted with charitable, faithful heart, violent and dangerous passions, good qualities, etc. My poor Mars seem not helpless, ahaa?
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Unread 05-01-2006, 12:44 PM
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Looks like I am standing alone here with the non-valid square Mars/Moon/Saturn her fifth!But reading what you write about it:

And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away

Yes,that would be the idea.Mars so close to the AC together with this conflicting aspect and if the separating aspect with the Moon was valid,you would notice in your reactions,your emotions(Moon).A square is a sharp,conflicting(and challenging)aspect.

Frisiangal,this elusiveness and reality would have given lots of conflicts,it would be have driven to the edge.I am much of a dreamer which also collides sometimes with reality,but there is no square between this planets in my natal chart.With much respect to your knowledge of astrology,I still disagree this counts as a square,and while it is an applying aspect,one would search the battle,Mars would have his say in this square!It would not be kept inside,unnoticable for others,no way!

Again apologizing for being so defensive,but I think it is an essential point here!
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Unread 05-01-2006, 01:24 PM
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Well, there's a ture fact to support you, johan -- I never fight a battle as I remember. It doesn't mean I'm coward, but I think there're too many ways to solve the problem peacefully. I even think that keeping atmosphere smooth is sophisticated skill and war itself admits inability. Courage does not mean fight in my world. From this point, I have to say it's completely Libran ways but not Scorpion! When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs) I just stop that stupid relation peacefully to avoid further hurt. ops: And it doesn't mean I'm easy to get along with either! Most of the time I prefer alone in my corner and if I have to relate, the worst result is silent end. Pretty sad, isn't it? Maybe it's because my Virgo Venus, love to use my brain muscle... :idea:
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Unread 05-01-2006, 02:05 PM
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Both ways

5th,

Continuing the discussion of Mars being square and trine, you said:
Quote:
When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs) I just stop that stupid relation peacefully to avoid further hurt.
This could be interpreted as "When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs)" [Mars square Saturn] I just stop that stupid relation peacefully [Mars trine Jupiter]. So when you are stopped (Saturn), you open up to others (Jupiter).

Having the cake and eating it too,

Tim
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Unread 05-01-2006, 02:18 PM
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When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs)" [Mars square Saturn

Sorry Tim,but this is way too simple.This is not a description of Mars squaring.A square would challenge it,it will rouse fights,quarrels.

I had a girlfriend who also has Venus square Uranus,and I recognize things 5th say in relation with this.Also,the Moon/Saturn conjunction gives a need for controlling feelings,a nice form given to the emotions.This sentence you quoted is much much more applicable to Moon/Saturn and definitely not Mars square Saturn!

[/i]
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Unread 05-01-2006, 02:26 PM
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Libra

johan,

Quote:
...this is way too simple.This is not a description of Mars squaring.A square would challenge it,it will rouse fights,quarrels.
Perhaps with just any Saturn, but consider that this is Libra (relationships) modifying Saturn, so it is reasonable that relationships are somehow involved. And consider that this is not just ANY Mars square Saturn. This is a Mars square Saturn which ALSO has a Mars trine Jupiter. So the "normal" Saturn situation is "smoothed over" by Jupiter's optimistic outlook.

Still simplifying,

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Unread 05-01-2006, 04:27 PM
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No Tim,I disagree.

If the square was valid(but it is not),it would work out.Mars would go for the fight,the square would be seen,and not be totally covered up by the trine with Jupiter!

Reading what you wrote fifth,I would like to quote out of an astrologybook:the separating conjunction Moon/Saturn.Keep in mind that it is just an example,just to clarify the relation between these two planets;it is not a dogma,just an example (a little bit into extremes),to get a feeling of the relation between the two planets.It can work out in many ways(houseplacements,signs,aspects to other planets and more!)

The separating conjunction

By a separating conjunction the Moon is in front:the behaviour looks spontaneous,but it is more politeness.Such a person cuts off the primitive passive sympathy,the solidarity with other people,the instinctive-humane.One goes inside the ivory tower,there is a wall of glass.Saturn makes that one like to be alone,one isolates the Moon-emotional life to something that is pure individual,it is no one else's business.They cultivate their own soul,live with an aristocratic style.This type of person moves himself stately and worthy,it can already be seen in the cradle:it is beneith their dignity to cry for a new diper!They are serious,controlled,taciturn,affable and courteous.They can perfectly converse without showing themselves,real stoics.When they are in pain,offended or in big need:they never show it.
They have a strong binding to their mother(Moon),because Saturn lenghtens this binding.This binding does not hold confidentiality,but a same attitude of life,an understanding without words.
Often in their lives they have periods of weariness of life and melancholy,they see themselves as a lonely,tragic figure,high above the mass.


You wrote:"thanks for your wise answer and warm welcome,you are very kind",and that you "like to be alone in the corner most of the time";in my opinion examples of this aspect.

Perhaps with just any Saturn, but consider that this is Libra (relationships) modifying Saturn, so it is reasonable that relationships are somehow involved
Yes,relationships are involved,with the Moon/Saturn conjunction,not with Mars!

Not difficultising,but truthifying,

Johan

PS,
Fifth,I had a girlfriend who shared the applying square with Uranus,in different signs,Venus in H1,and Uranus in H5.Reading what you say about Venus,their are in my opinion similarities.If you like I will write down my thoughts in this thread how in my opinion this worked out for her,maybe you recognize something.

Be well fifth!
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  #22  
Unread 05-01-2006, 11:59 PM
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wilsontc & johan

Maybe differing from the aspects is easy to become some illusions, ahaa? So many aspects to consider, so much illusion to be convinced?! But I do feel the strong force of Moon-Saturn, like johan quoted, as very forceful influence. Even if the Mars square accounts, this conjunction is still most powerful in my chart. Now I'm more cleared about Moon's Libran nature but not Scorpion.

Back to Mars, as its conjunction to ASC and Leo sign, it can be a part of my ASC... BUT to my experience, the ruler of ASC is much more forceful than its conjunctions, even the closest conjunction. My ASC ruler Sun is more important to me, working together with Mars force.

It seemed that my Mars nature is too far from square Moon-Saturn, and don't forget the powerful Pluto! Mars square to Pluto is known to be extremely violent and forceful, together with Mars square to Moon-Saturn, it would sound like KILLER JACK, isn't it? But fortunately I'm not that terrible~~ :mrgreen: With this deep doubt, I came here to make sure what it really is. And now I'm clear that these square doesn't work, at least not obviously! :idea: I don't know how these squares really work out will be, but I'm sure it's not my character according to astrology description!
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  #23  
Unread 05-02-2006, 01:47 AM
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[HELP] Strange Mars

Hi 5th,
Welcome to the forum. "When in doubt count the degrees" is what the course work I have studied says. It certainly is that in this instance. A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though. 8 degrees orb is allowed so 8 degrees either side of 1 degrees Scorpio is still considered a square The closer to 90 degrees the more powerful. My own Moon Square Saturn has both of these planets placed in Water Signs, and this square is as real as anything (and has been) in my life. My own Sun Square Neptune is almost perfectly square moreso than my Moon /Saturn aspect. I have only two pairs of planetary squares in my chart and I feel that I have been able to really discern their presence well. Whereas some one with as many as 10+ squares in their charts may not discern one challenge from another as reddily. Again, welcome 5th.
Take Care
Franklin
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  #24  
Unread 05-02-2006, 03:19 AM
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johan

OK, it's a good idea. After all, fall Virgo Venus' best use is to recognize... In my experience, Venus square Uranus is pretty sad for relationship! Cause nothing lasts!

franklin taylor

Thanks for your double welcome! In your lion image it seems we share Sun sign, ahhaa?

My chart presents 10 square, what does it mean? Maybe the more square, the more challenge, the more challenge, the more trouble and achievement? You can see my MC in so many aspect...

A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though.

It's to the point, franklin! What do you think these challeging aspect really mean? Maybe you can help me to recognize the limits? :roll:
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  #25  
Unread 05-02-2006, 07:48 AM
5th 5th is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 47
Maybe we can check the validity of Mars square in another way -- ASC. If the Mars square is valid, then the ASC square must be the same. They are in conjunction and share most of aspects.

ASC is for my image to the world. the Moon-Saturn-Pluto square may make me quite challeged by emotion, sorrow and instinct. Then I should be extremely sad and cannot get away from the hopeless shadow. But the opposite is ture! I can find myself happy and trusted, (though I still prefer alone, alone enough with my optimistic & positive nature -- Sagittarius Jupiter) creative and resourceful(Uranus). Maybe the Jupiter-Uranus trine works out more obviously. I can be peaceful with others, my friends enjoy turn to me to get away from their troubles or have a laugh for a short time, so from this point I'm out of the ASC square to Moon-Saturn-Pluto description again!
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