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Unread 02-14-2020, 10:58 PM
LushBomb LushBomb is offline
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Red face Help find Mom's missing wedding ring? [Still Searching!]

Question Details:
Asked 11/16/19 (Saturday, November 16th 2019) at 8:25PM
Irvine, CA (US)
Saturn Day
Jupiter Hour
Part of Possessions (ASC+2nd cusp-2nd ruler) 6*14' Aries

My mother(Victoria) asked "Where is my wedding ring?"
I received the question and drew the chart on 11/16/19 at 8:25pm
She is signified by 1st House Cancer with Moon inside
Her ring is signified by the 2nd House ruler Sun
As the astrologer of whom the question was asked, I am signified by 7th House Aquarius & ruler Saturn


To be clear- this is not a derived question. The question was asked by a woman named Victoria regarding her personal possession: her wedding ring. Victoria is my mother, however this detail is irrelevant to the chart because I did not ask this question. I received this question (as the astrologer, represented by the 7th house) at 8:25pm on 11/19/2019. I drew the chart and proceeded to delineate it as best I could.
(: Thank you guys~


Hi guys,

I did my best to delineate the chart on my own but hit a bit of a dead end- we didn't find the ring in the places I thought to look. I promised her I'd post online seeking help from people with more experience than myself. Chart is attached.
I prefaced the entire situation by letting her know that this is a very complicated study and there's no guarantee that I'd be able to read the chart correctly or find the item at all.

I also noted that Saturn was conjunct and ruling the 7th house cusp. I wasn't sure if a Saturn in domicile would equate with an affliction of the 7th cusp, but I sure have had trouble with this chart. Note, that if the 7th is to describe the astrologer this may be describing me-- I am an Aquarius sun person (and moon, venus, and mars).

Quick points-

I believe from the chart that the item is recoverable
I believe based on the chart that the item is still in the home (or 'outside' but very near, such as the attached garage)
IMPORTANT: Theft is a possibility; if this is so, I believe that an incomplete attempt at theft may be indicated (I see no indications of sale and there are several indications of the item being at home and recoverable)
Based on the possibility of an incomplete attempt, I believe the item may be well-hidden/stashed in a hiding place (thus 2nd ruler Scorpio)
If theft occurred, it is believed to have been a temporary tenant which would have been responsible. We did not experience a break-in and we own large, protective dogs who have free run of the back and side yards and the house-- a stranger would not have been able to sneak through the yard or house without a potentially lethal struggle.
**VERY IMPORTANT: My mother is divorced; she was not regularly wearing the ring when it was lost. It was sitting on its ring holder in her bathroom/vanity area. My mother is not sure exactly when the ring disappeared, my grandmother claims to have seen it in the ring holder shortly before they noticed it was missing. After noticing the wedding ring had gone, my grandmother checked and realized that some of her jewelry appeared to be missing as well. This is what prompted the idea of theft.

Radical Chart- I believe so
It has been pointed out that there is no agreement between the hour ruler and the Ascendant, however the hour ruler is the exaltation of the Ascendant (Jupiter, Cancer). I have read that this confirms a radical chart.
Further, the Ascendant physically describes my Mother (sign of Cancer=Mothers) who is also a Cancer Ascendant woman.
For reference:
John Gadbury, When a figure is radical and fit to be judged: "1. When the Sign Ascending, and Planet in the Ascendant, &c. shall describe
the person of the Querent exactly, you may conclude that figure Radical, and
the Question propounded fit to be judged. "

Void of Course Moon? No
The Moon applies a trine to both Fortuna and the 2nd house Ruler. She will also square Mars (dispositor of 2nd ruler, Fortuna, owner of the 4th house end of matter for a 2nd house question) just before entering Leo.
I believe the square describes a great deal of trouble in finding the item and bringing the matter to a close and may describe the physical obstacles to finding the item. (If it is in the garage, that will be quite an undertaking to go through all items and boxes etc... to find something so small as a ring which may have been purposefully hidden away) The uninhibited trines from a domiciled Moon to 2nd ruler conjunct Fortuna from the Querent's angle seem to amply suggest that recovery will occur.

When was it lost?
The ring was lost a few years ago; I cannot remember exactly when and neither can she. I would say around 5 or 6 years.
I have considered the outgoing 7 degeree trine with retrograde Mercury to indicate the situation creating loss or a potential thief, however, Mercury is not in aspect to the 2nd lord or Fortuna. It is mutually applying to a square of the 2nd cusp. It rules the negligible 3rd and the 12th of loss..this seems to just confirm the actual loss of the item rather than the presence of a thief (unless the thief was a neighbor, but we did not experience a break-in and we have protective, large dogs). My mother's siblings are out of the question also, not just for reasons of character- my aunt rarely visits the house and does not have a spare key, my uncle lives far away on the border of the next state.

Describe the ring-
The ring was gold with three large diamonds, the center stone being the largest. It was very highly appraised/valued, quite probably the most valuable item my mother owns/ed, given that she leases her vehicle. The Sun is an apt descriptor.

Where I've thought to look-
1. My mom's closet, including in clothes/pockets (Mom's room is N/E part of the house, closet is on N/E wall in the restroom/the fireplace is on the other side of the wall that forms the back of the closet)
2. My mom's bathroom storage (She had already searched through here many times)
3. The water heater (in the N/E corner of the garage)
4. The loft in the garage (a bunch of my mother and grandmothers things, mirrors, paintings) or low on the ground/in a dark corner of the garage. (The state of the garage does fit with Scorpionic symbolism, regrettably lol)
5. The furnace (in a small closet in the hallway), the fire place
6. My mother shares her room with my sister (her child), so I had considered this room due to 5th house implications and the fact that this is where the item was normally kept. My brother's room and my room are upstairs and do not appear to be indicated; as we are adults, my mother does not go in these rooms. (Note, the youngest 'child' is 21 years old)

Places I've thoroughly searched:
Several cabinets and drawers in my mother's restroom/vanity area
The upper cabinets of the kitchen, also lower cabinets and where the trash is kept, under the sink
The linen closet in the hall
The water heater area in the garage (this could use a second look if the garage was cleaned)
The furnace closet in the hall
A pantry/storage room in the hall/under the staircase
The family room/den, including the drawers and cabinets of an entertainment bay where all tv/entertainment equipment for the family room is housed & also includes much office supplies ie; pens, papers, binders, scissors, staplers, etc...
Two filing cabinets which housed old bills
The drawers of a small table in the entrance hall/foyer area

I have searched many, many other places and will add them as I recall all of them

Any ideas for other places to look? Any big, flashing lights you see that I missed? Errors in any of my interpretations which you can spot?
All help is appreciated, thank you in advance for your time!


Last edited by LushBomb; 05-16-2020 at 08:33 PM. Reason: post has been edited to be more concise
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Unread 02-15-2020, 01:34 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

I don't like reading or even attempting to read charts that I don't do myself, or if another's, then have the time, date, and place because otherwise, we can't know other important information such as the Day and Time rulers.



Like you or perhaps unlike you, I'm not proficient in horary,but am intrigued by it enough to try my hand now and then.


I noticed you said you were assuming, the ASC represented your mom, but I don't think so. Its the question you ask. The question I take it to be, "where is the ring?"....Other info such as who, what where and under what circumstance might also reveal itself if we are lucky or a proficient enough astrologer finds this thread.



Having said that, I'm taking the Moon to be the action of the chart and the Ruler itself having to do with the lost ring.



2nd house would be where I'd look to the ruler of the 2nd, and in this case the ring represented by the Sun (Leo) found in the 5th house a distance from the Moon for certain, but there is a trine between the Moon and Mercury with a 12 degree separation before becoming an exact trine.

I don't recall the timetable nor do I see of course the dates I mentioned, as to how long this ring is now missing, but some people do look at the aspects of the Moon if they think the item is retrievable for the timing.



The 2°difference to a square with Mars in the 4th house (another place to look for the end result of the event) - but the square appears to me to suggest being hampered in retrieval which has been the case apparently.



Since you are the one who was attempting to read the chart for your mother (the querant), I'd suggest you then would be represented by Saturn which indeed is within minutes to the DSC cusp, suggesting a few things as possibilities. For example, is the Astrologer (who can be seen by the 7th) ruler by Saturn? That might be one exception to the rule. The other I think (by memory), has to do with the time - day ruler. I can't find my notes tonight however. One of these exception as I recall, is (in this case, Saturn is found in Capricorn - the sign associated with the planet, and either the astrologer being a Cap. or Aquarius might be better but by and large, the consideration is as noted below



"Saturn in the seventh either corrupts the judgment of the Astrologer, or is a Sign the matter propounded will come from one misfortune to another."Wm.Lilly



IF I find my notes over the weekend, I'll probably post more.

Meanwhile, my heart goes out to your mom, as I also lost jewelry which was precious to me (through theft). ... I never ever dreamed a friend of my daughter's would have taken my rings both in one case on the dining room table, (one my mothers, one my grandmother's) .....and I cried heavily over that loss. The girl told my friend she flushed them down a toilet. She was also a girl from a wealthy family, with obviously, serious emotional problems.
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Unread 02-15-2020, 01:54 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

A few other notes regarding Saturn:


(in your chart, the face of Saturn at 16° is Mars, hence a malefic) and Saturn opposes the Moon -



However, Saturn can get some strength when found to be hour and time ruler or the ruler of the Sun of the astrologer reading the chart.



http://docshare01.docshare.tips/files/8837/88377690.pdf
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Unread 02-15-2020, 02:26 AM
LushBomb LushBomb is offline
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Firstly, thank you for taking a look at this chart!

I thought the 1st house cusp ruled the question and it's lord the querent? So my mother would be represented by Moon right? Correct me if I'm wrong though, I am still learning (: And sometimes I speak loosely/lazily without realizing, so if I'm being vague please forgive me. (Natal Mercury is in Pisces hehe)

Man! Sorry about that lol, I meant to include the date/time info- the hour ruler is Jupiter I believe so I wasn't sure if the chart is radical.
I'll edit my post to include that right away.
I was worried that the non-radical chart would essentially be telling me that it's 'not rooted' in the original question, meaning, perhaps the chart will tell me where the ring is but not in the context of how we are thinking of it- like, where it is in our house. It may be telling me that this ring is in a low/dark/bathroom type area not too far away in a house...just not our house or our bathroom. And this could be if it was stolen or sold. I'm really hoping this isn't the case.
I had read that sometimes a non-radical chart will half-answer questions in an oblique way such as this
I mentioned that bit about the ASC describing my mother (which is probably where I confused you with my phrasing) as (if I recall correctly) Lilly had sometimes used whether or not the Ascendant physically describes the querent to call a chart radical. In a question asked by my mom the sign cancer ascending seemed to confirm that this chart actually is in fact radical, in my opinion.

Yes, I saw Saturn chilling by the 7th cusp and immediately thought my judgement would be comprimised/I would have trouble with the chart based on that quote.

That's interesting, both of those conditions are true actually. I'm an Aquarius & this question was asked on Saturday, so Saturn is the day ruler. I haven't come across that bit of information regarding Saturn and the 7th cusp rule so if you do find it in your notes I'd love for you to share it! I was hunting for information like that for forever when I first drew this chart.


I'm so sorry to hear that, it seems some people have no empathy. The emotional attachment to our keepsakes is always so much stronger than their cash value. It always made me sick to my stomach to think that one of the people who we gave a home to in their time of need would've repaid my mother's kindness that way. I'm really sad to hear that the same thing happened to you also.

Thank you for the link! I haven't had the time to do anything but glance, but is that the content from mithras93.tripod.com on a downloadable PDF I see? That's one of my favorite resources next to Skyscript's articles but its tricky to try to find the right page on google when you need it. You're my hero (:

Last edited by LushBomb; 02-15-2020 at 02:53 AM. Reason: corrections. why did i spell repaid as 'repayed' wtf where is my brain
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Unread 02-15-2020, 02:58 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hi again...just happened to look at my computer between TV shows I'm catching up on tonight. Meanwhile, I want you to know that YOU know more then I, about horary I'm sure, as I too am learning. However, its true some of us will pick up different things that others may have neglected or forgotten too. Just as I learn, so too do others from each other.


REF:
Quote:
Lilly had sometimes used whether or not the Ascendant physically describes the querent to call a chart radical. In a question asked by my mom the sign cancer ascending seemed to confirm that this chart actually is in fact radical, in my opinion.
I read the same as you did, (Lilly suggested that the ASC and the querant being confirmed in this way meant a radiical chart)....What confused me (and to some extent still does), is "what exactly is the horary question?" I know that sounds simple and should be self-explanatory, but its not meant to be, only that you talk like I think, lol. I have a lot of scattered energy especially when I write, (having Cancer Rising in the Tropical natal, but Gemini in the Sidereal), so I went into writing Kindle books and a LOT of editing must be done prior to publishing my work,.... mostly because of my scattered thoughts.


So, I'm taking your mother's original question as very simply, "Where is my ring"?....Would that be accurate to assume?


Of course others may insist on doing a turned chart, i.e. finding you as daughter to your mom, then turning the chart and looking into her 2nd house and all the other houses depending on what they might be looking to answer. Personally, I don't employ turned charts unless absolutely necessary meaning, not easily seen otherwise, then I call that "plan b". But my motto in life is "to each his/her own"....Lilly had his way, I have mine, you yours, Gadbury his, Morin his, and so on and on.


BTW: Thanks a whole bunch for the Day (Saturn) ruler and the time (Jupiter?) ruler. That helps I'm sure once we or others get into this moreso.


From what I vaguely recall (not from where I read it), Jupiter was the original ruler of Cancer, until bumped from the moon as ruler and then it became the sign's exaltation. Just to say, that the hour ruler seems to fit well with the ASC which is good to know.



Must sign off for the night, thanks for the excellent & stimulating conversation with much to think about later....


for now however, -

Last edited by leomoon; 02-15-2020 at 03:04 AM.
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Unread 02-16-2020, 06:10 PM
Aria Venue Aria Venue is offline
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

hello LushBomb
1.when your mother lost her ring?When was the last time the querent
had/saw the lost object?
2.could you please describe it? you said gold and that is very expensive.is there a specific gemstone/color on the ring or something descriptive?like a figure?
3.once more to clarify that indeed your mother is the one who asked
4.obviously i don't know your house but to start from scratch have you checked the play room, children's room if there's any...you said you checked the bedroom
with lost objects there are many possibilities and always is easier for the querent who knows his house to figure out the possible places(if the item was lost in the house in the first place).personally usually i prefer the natural sigs instead of the accidental ones..but 4th could be also relevant sometimes, as also pof in such type of charts
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Unread 02-19-2020, 01:57 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hey LushBomb:

I don't know what anyone has said here; however, you need to cast a new chart.

You are having problems because:

(1) The is Void of Course—meaning that nothing is going to happen; you won't find the missing ring

(2) is in the 7th house, meaning you will have a lot of difficulty interpreting the chart because the astrologer is the 7th house here

(3) Moreover, there is no "harmony" with the hour in which the chart was cast and the ascendant or ruler of the ascendant. (Normally, this is not a significant factor alone, in most instances, but because you have all three of these factors together, you simply cannot use this chart to find the missing ring.

I hope this helps, so you don't have to ponder why you haven't found that ring yet.
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Last edited by Cypocryphy; 02-19-2020 at 01:59 AM.
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Unread 05-15-2020, 07:23 PM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post
hello LushBomb
1.when your mother lost her ring?When was the last time the querent
had/saw the lost object?
2.could you please describe it? you said gold and that is very expensive.is there a specific gemstone/color on the ring or something descriptive?like a figure?
3.once more to clarify that indeed your mother is the one who asked
4.obviously i don't know your house but to start from scratch have you checked the play room, children's room if there's any...you said you checked the bedroom
with lost objects there are many possibilities and always is easier for the querent who knows his house to figure out the possible places(if the item was lost in the house in the first place).personally usually i prefer the natural sigs instead of the accidental ones..but 4th could be also relevant sometimes, as also pof in such type of charts
Hi there, thank you for taking the time to respond and I apologize for my delay. These are excellent questions, so I've also added my answers to the main post for anyone new taking a look

1. I believe around 5-6 years ago. It's possible that it could be between 4-7 years, but I feel 5-6 would be more accurate.
2. It was a diamond ring, several karats. The main stone was the largest in the middle, flanked by two slightly smaller stones on the side. I do not believe there were any smaller diamonds set in with those, but it's possible there may have been some accent stones. The ring itself was 24k gold.
3. It was indeed my mother who asked me, as the astrologer, the question. This is the original chart of the question taken at the time of the first asking.
4. I have checked my mother and sister's shared room and still feel this could be a strong contender. Without passing any judgement, my mother (and sister, for that matter) is not at all an organized individual and has a tendency to accumulate things. She's not a hoarder by any stretch, but let's just say that her room is the perfect place for a never-ending treasure hunt.
We do not have a play room, but my mother and sister play videogames in their room which also seemed to fit. Videogames are also occasionally played in the family room/den and in the dining room where my sister's computer is set up. My search in these areas hasn't turned up anything so far, but if you could think of any specifics I would gladly re-check these zones.

I did consider Venus somewhat, given she is a natural significator of jewelry and marriages, for that matter, but the Sun does seem to accurately describe the ring well. Additionally, the POF is conjunct the Sun which to me seemed to be the chart confirming that significator?
Venus is the 4th house ruler, however, and is conjunct her dispositor Jupiter in domicile (increasing value and size of the (stones in the?) ring so also an accurate description), so I had considered her. She's in a fire sign and near a sign boundary in the cadent house which would've suggested near a source of heat/wall/window/boundary/in a package/just been moved, possibly very well hidden in between or behind something?
The Moon doesn't aspect them now, but the next aspect she will make in the sign of Leo is a trine to Venus, then shortly after to Jupiter. If Venus is the sig, this could suggest finding the item after a change in circumstance?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Hey LushBomb:

I don't know what anyone has said here; however, you need to cast a new chart.

You are having problems because:

(1) The [Moon] is Void of Course—meaning that nothing is going to happen; you won't find the missing ring

(2) [Saturn] is in the 7th house, meaning you will have a lot of difficulty interpreting the chart because the astrologer is the 7th house here

(3) Moreover, there is no "harmony" with the hour in which the chart was cast and the ascendant or ruler of the ascendant. (Normally, this is not a significant factor alone, in most instances, but because you have all three of these factors together, you simply cannot use this chart to find the missing ring.

I hope this helps, so you don't have to ponder why you haven't found that ring yet.
Hi there, thank you for offering your help! Sorry it took me so long to get back-- I actually saw your response and more or less gave up on the chart for a while. My mother had just recently re-asked the question and I'd drawn a new chart (I can post that if desired, but I don't think it's valid). However, just last night I took a second look at the original chart and felt that it may still be valid:

1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, of course, I am still learning: I do not see the Moon being void of course? She is applying an uninhibited trine to the 2nd house ruler and to the POF in the second house. That seemed like a strong indication of recovery to me. Aspecting them in Scorpio, the reception isn't pretty, but that's another matter (headache, lol) to interpret entirely

2. Yep, you're right on that one. I had immediately seen Saturn conjunct the 7th and assumed I would have great difficulty with the chart. With the sign of Aquarius (I am an Aquarius stellium) on the cusp, I felt that it might be describing me. Being that Saturn is in domicile and conjunct an angle, I figure it was indicating obstacles to the search and delays, especially in the timeline indicated for finding the item in the chart (the applying Moon-Sun trine).

3. While I know Lily himself did not give this, I have read several other sources that give 'exaltation' as an acceptable relationship between hour ruler and ascendant. Jupiter is indeed in exaltation in Cancer.
Lily also gave that if the querent was well-described by the ascendant that the chart was radical. With Cancer rising on a question asked by my mother, I felt the relationship was indicated. Furthermore, my mother is a Cancer ascendant; the Cancer ascendant very literally describes her person. (I did not mention this in the post at first, so naturally you or anyone else would have no knowledge of this so I added this info to the main post)
Even still, I do agree that based strictly on the criteria of domicile, triplicity, or humor/nature agreement, or aspect to the ascendant or ascendant lord the chart would not be radical.
There was also a comment made in a previous post,
Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon
From what I vaguely recall (not from where I read it), Jupiter was the original ruler of Cancer, until bumped from the moon as ruler and then it became the sign's exaltation. Just to say, that the hour ruler seems to fit well with the ASC which is good to know.
Thank you, and again please do correct me if I am wrong. (: Any further thoughts are much appreciated

Last edited by LushBomb; 05-15-2020 at 07:39 PM. Reason: Added [Moon] and [Saturn] in place of images in quote
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Unread 05-15-2020, 07:51 PM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hey LushBomb,

Well, I suppose it depends on what definition you are using to determine whether a void of course is present.

If you use 30 degrees, then perhaps not. However, if you are following the most used definition and that of Lilly, then that chart only has one applying aspect, and that is with and . (Even that does not bode well due to a lack of translation.)

What I'm saying is that you have the separating but not applying to any planet within orb. Again, this is if you are using the common understanding and definition of a void of course .

You might want to post the new chart you cast, unless you want to use older definitions found in Hellenistic astrology. Either way, the chart doesn't show your coming into possession of this lost ring.

Hope this helps!
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Unread 05-16-2020, 03:48 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Hey LushBomb,

Well, I suppose it depends on what definition you are using to determine whether a void of course is present.

If you use 30 degrees, then perhaps not. However, if you are following the most used definition and that of Lilly, then that chart only has one applying aspect, and that is with and . (Even that does not bode well due to a lack of translation.)

What I'm saying is that you have the separating but not applying to any planet within orb. Again, this is if you are using the common understanding and definition of a void of course .

You might want to post the new chart you cast, unless you want to use older definitions found in Hellenistic astrology. Either way, the chart doesn't show your coming into possession of this lost ring.

Hope this helps!
Thank you for the quick reply!
I referred to Christian Astrology and pulled quotes just to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the information I've read (it took me forever! lol). There's a lot of text, so I tried to highlight or bold the particularly relevant parts for ease of reading (:

The Moon performs even if she is Void of Course in the sign of Cancer, per Lily:

"All manner of matters go hardly on (except the principal significators be very strong) when the Moon
is void of course; yet somewhat she performs if void of course, and be either in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces" CA p.122 Consideration (The same is mentioned for the 9th aphorism)

But I don't see how she could possibly be considered Void of Course anyway? That's the main reason why I'm confused with your answer...
She is at 20 degrees Cancer 1H, applying in 4 degrees to the 2nd Lord Sun at 24 degrees Scorpio. This is also given as an argument of recovery. She applies to and perfects multiple aspects before leaving her sign of Cancer as well. That is to say, that strictly speaking she appears to be in orb of a major aspect to another planet, the one ruling the matter, no less.

"Her orb is 12 degrees before and after any Aspect." CA p84

"A planet is Void of Course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other: This is most usually in the Moon; In judgments do you carefully observe whether she be Void of Course yea or no; you shall seldom see a business go handsomely forward when she is so" CA p112

"11. The application of the Moon shows the present condition of the thing demanded, viz. her applying by a good aspect, and in a good house, to a good Planet, intimates the strong hopes of the thing intended." CA p299 Aphorisms

Also,

"Things are also brought to a passe, when as the principall Aspect of Signifiers apply by sextile or trine aspect out of good Houses and places where they are essentially well dignified (and meet with no malevolent Aspect to intervene ere they come to be in perfect sextile or trine; I mean to the partill Sextill or Tryne." CA p125 Granted, the Sun is not well dignified in Scorpio, but all else stands. I have read that the peregrine significator can refer more to the state that the item is when it rules the 2nd house in a lost item horary.

"Lastly, things are sometimes perfected by the dwelling of Planets in houses, viz. when the Significator of the thing demanded is casually posited in the Ascendant..." CA p126 (The Moon is always a co-sig for lost items, although that may not apply here as she primarily represents the querent, so I'm willing to concede that this quote may not be relevant to this particular chart, but given that it's not specifically ruled out "except when the Moon rules the Querent" or something like that, I'll include it.)

And I'm also confused as to why we would take Venus instead of the Sun as signifier for the ring. (Unless I am misunderstanding your intention and you are not suggesting this, then please disregard everything about Venus as a significator instead of the Sun) I would think that Venus would add details to the interpretation, being a natural signifier for the ring. I thought maybe Venus might add details to the description of the item location, possibly. Anyway, the second lord describes the item well, and Lily says

"So that in the first place therefore, When any Question is propounded, the Sign ascending and his Lord are always given to him or her that asks the questions.
You must then consider the matter propounded, and see to which of the twelve houses it doth properly belong when you have found the house, consider the Sign and Lord of that Sign, how, and in what Sign and what part of Heaven he is placed, how dignified, what aspect he hath to the Lord of the Ascendent, who impedites your Significator....etc" CA p 123-124"Consider the Sign ascending on the Cusp of the Second House, the Lord thereof, the Planet or Planets therein posited, or aspecting the Lord of that houes or Cusp thereof; the Part of Fortune, the Sign, and place of Heaven where it is placed, and how aspected by the Planets. (For POF it self emitteth no rayes, or casteth any aspect to any Planet, no more does the NN or the SN)
First, if you find the Planets all angular, it's one good Sign of Substance; if they be in succeedant houses direct and swift in motion, it's a good sign. If the planets be in good houses, direct, and but moderately dignified in essentiall Dignities, it's a hopefull argument of an Estate: Those Rules are generall.
"
CA p167-168

Then in the chapter on lost/mislaid items, Lily specifically says to use the 2nd house lord to signify the item lost:
"Be carefull to take your Ascendant exactly, and consider the nature of the Question, viz. whose Goods, or to whom the thing missing, or lost, or enquired after, did appertain; if the Goods be the Querents own Commodity, then see to the Lord of the second; If it belong to his Brother or Sister...[explains derived houses]" CA p202 [To Finde a Thing Hid or Mislaid]

And then he seems to indicate that a majority of the sigificators in water signs, (ie; ASC cusp, Lord of ASC, Moon, POF, 2nd House, 2nd Lord) would indicate nearness to water:
"The nature and quality of the place is known by the Signs the Significators are in: for if the Sign of the Second be aiery or the greater number of Significators and Sign wherein POF is, doth concurre, the thing is hid in the Eaves, or top , or upper part of that house or roome where it is, or on high from the ground: and if the thing hid be in the Field, or in a Garden or Orchard, it's higher then the ordinary ground, or upon the highest hill, or part of that ground, or hangs upon some stalk of a Plant or Tree.
If the former Significators be strong, and in watry Signs, it's in the [Bakery? the text is very hard to read here] Dairy, or Wash-house, or neer Water." CA p203 [To Finde a Thing Hid or Mislaid]

Further, the Sun describes the ring very well (I have seen general significators used when the 2nd house lord does not describe the item well)-- the ring is Gold, Grandiose, and Expensive. The Sun is general significator for "for valuable things, precious stones, grand articles and items made of gold;" - Deborah Holding, Skyscript
While I definitely think Venus could be a co-significator, I don't think she would be the main.


Right now I don't believe I should post the new chart, as I don't believe the new chart is valid inasmuch as I don't believe this chart is invalid. Therefore I think the question had no business being asked again.
Lily suggests that it's only appropriate to re-ask a question if the Moon is VOC (or I possibly, if there is significant change in circumstances, but I am not 100% it is Lily who said this ). And again, I am still unfortunately failing to see why you are saying that the Moon is VOC.

It would really help me if you could tell me specifically why you think this:
Quote:
"What I'm saying is that you have the separating but not applying to any planet within orb. Again, this is if you are using the common understanding and definition of a void of course ."
when there is a 4 degree applying trine to the Sun?

If you could please explain to me your thoughts on why:
1. The Moon is void of course (is it because she does not aspect Venus, the general sig for jewelry? That is my understanding of what you mean currently.)
2. Why you don't believe the ring will be found (Is this again, because Venus is unaspected by the Moon? Or is this because you believe the Moon is VOC?)
If my previous hunches in the parenthesis are correct then,
3. Why do you believe Venus would be the rightful significator rather than 2nd house Lord Sun, who also rules gold, things of value, and gemstones? (This is a gold ring, very expensive, set with diamonds)

It's possible I got a little mixed up after replying to Arie Venue re: Venus as a sig and I've misinterpreted your meaning-- again, if you didn't intend to suggest that Venus should be the sig for the ring then please disregard my questions/comments about why you would think that would be.
If that is the case, then my only questions would be:
"How is the Moon VOC given the aspect to the sun", and followup, "Is VOC Moon the only factor causing you to believe the ring won't be found or are there other factors?"
For example, I noticed both lights are under the Earth but I felt that the other positive testimonies would indicate that it would just be very challenging--not impossible--to find it.

I'm willing to take in new information, I'm just having trouble understanding where you are coming from. (:

I did ask (myself) if my Mom's ring would be recoverable and read that chart using derived houses. I had also asked if my mom's ring had been stolen or if it was still in the house, again interpreted with derivative houses. These charts encouraged me to believe that it was recoverable, and not stolen but still in the home. I'm just not sure if those charts are valid, or if those questions are inherent in this original chart (therefore invalidating those charts, which were drawn after this one).
I could post those charts for you to glance at if it would be helpful/if you would want to look them over? And if you still believe that this current chart is invalid, I could PM the new one to you only-- I just don't want anyone else responding to that one on this thread to avoid any confusion.

Thank you again for your help, it is greatly appreciated! Plus, I always enjoy brushing up on CA~
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hey. I feel bad now. You did a lot of research on this, which is awesome But I have to apologize. When I had looked at this chart previously, the date was incorrect. Instead of the 16th of November, I had entered the 19th of November, which put it at 1º (approximately). So when you had mentioned the in , I realized we were looking at two different charts. (I had saved this, actually. So I had assumed I had entered it correctly.)

So ... yeah ... this whole time I had been looking at the wrong chart. You are absolutely right, the is not void of course.

I'll have to come back to this. I should have looked at the chart you posted. I just used the data/info at the beginning of the post and entered it incorrectly.

Okay. Just real quickly: I had read what you wrote previously, and I only have one question at the moment. Did your mom come to you and say, "I want you to do a horary chart for me and tell me where my ring is," or did you say, "Hey mom, I have a way of finding lost things; it's called horary astrology, and I'll cast a chart to see where your ring is"?

Because if it's the latter, you'll need to turn the chart to the tenth house. That would make the ruler of your mother and the ruler of her possession, her lost ring. The will also represent the lost item.

Either way, I'll have to help out tomorrow—at least I hope I can help out here. I already feel bad for exclaiming that the is void of course. But the reality is that I'm looking at the chart for the very first time now ....

I hope you aren't annoyed. I'll be back!
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hi,

I am trying to understand - why the chart is from 2019? Is it because that is when the event happened?

Who asked the Q - you on behalf of your mother or your mother herself?
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Hi,

I am trying to understand - why the chart is from 2019? Is it because that is when the event happened?

Who asked the Q - you on behalf of your mother or your mother herself?

Thanks for asking a straight forward question I've been wondering about as well. The last time it was asked, the answer came back something about "my mother asked, and the astrologer".....but I don't know IF the mother IS an astrologer herself?



OR was that meant to say the mother "of" the Astrologer asked?



We have to determined the correct rulers.
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Unread 05-16-2020, 08:08 PM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
Hey. I feel bad now. You did a lot of research on this, which is awesome But I have to apologize. When I had looked at this chart previously, the date was incorrect. Instead of the 16th of November, I had entered the 19th of November, which put it at 1º (approximately). So when you had mentioned the in , I realized we were looking at two different charts. (I had saved this, actually. So I had assumed I had entered it correctly.)

So ... yeah ... this whole time I had been looking at the wrong chart. You are absolutely right, the is not void of course.

I'll have to come back to this. I should have looked at the chart you posted. I just used the data/info at the beginning of the post and entered it incorrectly.

Okay. Just real quickly: I had read what you wrote previously, and I only have one question at the moment. Did your mom come to you and say, "I want you to do a horary chart for me and tell me where my ring is," or did you say, "Hey mom, I have a way of finding lost things; it's called horary astrology, and I'll cast a chart to see where your ring is"?

Because if it's the latter, you'll need to turn the chart to the tenth house. That would make the ruler of your mother and the ruler of her possession, her lost ring. The will also represent the lost item.

Either way, I'll have to help out tomorrow—at least I hope I can help out here. I already feel bad for exclaiming that the is void of course. But the reality is that I'm looking at the chart for the very first time now ....

I hope you aren't annoyed. I'll be back!
No worries, don't feel bad!! It wasn't too much work, I have an ebook copy of Christian Astrology and like I said, it's always good to be able to brush up again! (The hardest part is not typing 'f' instead of 's' when you're copying the text, old english writing jeeeez) I just wanted to be sure lol, that Saturn in the 7th is messing with all of us astrologers it seems like, such a tricky chart. Honestly, I just appreciate that you're willing to help. And talk about research--I've done a ton of research trying to understand this dang chart. But the knowledge is valuable, so even if we never find it () I appreciate the learning process.

So with this particular chart, my mom did ask me the question. She is the querent in this case; I am the 7th house [astrologer]. (I had edited the original post bc it was so long, I felt nobody would want to read it but here is what I had originally written at the top):
"Hi everyone, I have been privately developing my skills using horary astrology for some time now. One day I told my mother about it and what it could do and she immediately asked
"Where is my wedding ring?""


[In the other two charts, I am definitely the querent, so I did turn the chart when looking at those and used the 10th and 11th houses to represent my mom and her ring, respectively. I can post them if you guys would like? Like I said, I'm just not sure if they're valid because I wasn't sure if their questions(/answers) were 'implied' in the original chart, which would've invalidated a second chart...Ahhh horary. I've honestly never enjoyed anything with this many rules so thoroughly.]




Hi Astrologer7000, hi again Leomoon~
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Hi,

I am trying to understand - why the chart is from 2019? Is it because that is when the event happened? - No, the event (as in loss of the ring) happened years ago; the chart is from 2019 because that is the date my mother asked the question. I have been working on this for a long time, and worked on it privately for some time before coming to the community to ask for help. (:

Who asked the Q - you on behalf of your mother or your mother herself? - No, my mother asked this question. To quote: "Where is my wedding ring?" (I included that original question as the 'name' on the chart itself)
Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
Thanks for asking a straight forward question I've been wondering about as well. The last time it was asked, the answer came back something about "my mother asked, and the astrologer".....but I don't know IF the mother IS an astrologer herself?

No, my mother is not the astrologer herself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon
OR was that meant to say the mother "of" the Astrologer asked?

YES! This is correct. ( :
Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon
We have to determined the correct rulers.
She asked the question: she is the querent.
The correct rulers for the Querent are the 1st house and the Moon in 1st house
The correct ruler for the possession in the 2nd house ruler Sun (the item may be co-ruled by Venus conjunct Jupiter, as Venus is also the natural significator for jewelry.)
The 7th house and Saturn rules me, as the astrologer
Just to restate in a different way to avoid any further confusion:
If I had asked this question, the original question would have been: "Where is my mother's wedding ring?"
I did not ask this question.
My mother asked me, "Where is my wedding ring?"

Thank you for helping me to clarify guys! I understand I may have caused confusion with the way I've phrased the information, I apologize.
I went ahead and answered directly inside of the quote to be concise.
I have added this information to the original post (and hope I have expressed it properly!).

I'm so sorry for causing so much confusion!! My mercury is in Pisces lol, I always wonder if that's to blame for my regular miscommunications & excessive ramblings. I really wish I could be more straightforward, I frustrate myself at times. Thank you for your patience~




So on that note...
If you look at potential timing indicators in the chart, the ASC angle will trine Sun in 6 degrees, from mixed cardinal/angular fixed/succeedent houses. That could give a timeline of 6 months.
May is 6 months from November, so I'm wondering if we'll be able to find it soon?

Last edited by LushBomb; 05-16-2020 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Adding reply to leo moon's question also~
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Unread 05-17-2020, 12:25 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hi,

So if your mother asked the Q and she is the first house, Moon - which applies to ruler of the second house, the Sun and POF in a trine, she should find it. The Sun is in the 5th house (direction North West) and it could have been lost during some recreational event, or could be at one of her children's place for instance.
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Unread 05-17-2020, 06:59 PM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Hi,

So if your mother asked the Q and she is the first house, Moon - which applies to ruler of the second house, the Sun and POF in a trine, she should find it. The Sun is in the 5th house (direction North West) and it could have been lost during some recreational event, or could be at one of her children's place for instance.
I agree, I had always considered it may be in her room because she shares that room with my sister. It's very expensive in my state, so our family still lives together, even though the youngest child, my sister, will be turning 21 this September. [There was a post mentioning something about a daughter around this age, but it appears to have been deleted--I hope temporarily!]

With heavy indications of water, I had considered the closet that my mother and sister share, which is located within the bathroom parallel to the sink/counter/cabinets and shares the wall with the toilet and shower area.
I have searched these areas thoroughly, however their closet is very messy. My mother has checked in the pockets of her clothes, but I'm wondering if it may be in something of my sisters, or perhaps an article of clothing my mother gave/lent my sister.
With the co-sig Venus in Sagittarius, I had thought about suitcases and walls (fire sign); there happens to be a suitcase in the closet on my sister's side up against the wall, but a very thorough search of this did not yield any results.
I'm wondering if it is just near this item, rather than inside of it?
I have always been drawn back to the closet, especially because some of the significators are in angles, which suggests "The item is where the Querent thinks it is." The closet also happens to be adjacent the cabinet upon which sits the ring holder from which the ring went missing.
The querent has always insisted that she's felt for years that it was in the area of her closet. She's always said this, long before we began looking for the ring with a chart.

The other thing I had considered was perhaps within a bag of clothes meant to be donated, they would be in a trashbag in a garage. My mother and sister's clothes could be together in a bag like that. It seems to fit with the symbolism.




Let me ask for any opinions on this: do you believe the Querent will(/must) be the one to find it, based on the discovery aspects coming from Moon & ASC angle? Would it be impossible for me (or anyone else to find it), or is the indication of the Moon/ASC trine more an indication of the item being returned to her rather than of who will physically find it?

Naturally, a trine to the ASC is a sextile to the DSC, but the sextile to the DSC and Saturn would be separating. Sun would be -8 degrees separating from Saturn and -6 degrees separating from DSC. [Using planetary orbs, this is within orb but still separating of course]
If Saturn/DSC is representing me in the equation, it doesn't seem to show future action; would it be impossible for me to physically find the item?

Or is this an indication that the item was already sold and pawned? Being that Saturn is owning the 7th and 8th cusps? (Although then, why the applying aspect of the Moon to the ring and the POF?)
While no one in the family would do this, we did have a friend of my brother's staying with us at the time and he was suspected of theft. There was another family friend who frequently stayed for periods of time/was around quite a bit and he was lightly suspected, but it was believed that he wouldn't take something so significant.
Counting houses, the 11th from the 5th would be her child's friend and he would be represented by rx Mercury in Scorpio. Lily's planetary orbs between Sun(15) and Mercury(+7) would give (=22/2=)11 degrees, meaning Mercury is not in separative aspect with the Sun.
Further, Mercury's full orb is only 7 degrees (so moeity is merely 3.5 degrees [7/2=3.5]) and POF casts no rays, so Mercury is not in orb of separating conjunction to the POF either.
Beyond that, Mercury's orb with Mars is 7 degrees and he is 14 degrees away from applying that Rx-conjunction (and an applying aspect would show future action anyway, not a past theft) so that appears to show no evidence of theft from a child's friend. ....Right?

Thoughts? I've been going back and forth on that for a while.
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Unread 05-20-2020, 12:39 AM
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Re: Help find Mom's missing wedding ring?

Hey guys! I have an exciting update today (although the ring has not yet been found)!

I have concentrated a lot of my search efforts in the garage, and there was a big entertainment unit that I had tried to search unsuccessfully around the 14th I believe.
I had gotten a strong feeling from that area(kept returning to this area) and was poking around when I noticed that there were two drawers on the bottom of the unit and they had something inside of them.

Today we (my mother and I) pulled some items out in order to access it, and in one of the drawers (which was low to the ground but slightly off of it, thanks to the legs) had some missing jewelry in it!! NOT the pieces we are looking for mind you, but I feel that we are very close.

I located this jewelry by comparing a chart drawn for my grandma's question about the whereabouts of her missing jewelry (once I told her that I thought my mother's was still in the house, she immediately asked where hers was. I can post this chart if desired, but I hadn't due to the fact that I had started looking for my mother's wedding ring first. Mother and Grandmother had both thought that their items might be together [unsuccessful theft attempt] and at this point I believe they might be right.)

My grandma asked her question 3 days later (on the 19th) so she has a totally different chart, different ASC, different house placements- and yet the clues for location of the item are remarkably similar to the clues for the location of the wedding ring in the chart posted on this thread.

While I have been referring to Lily's techniques first and foremost, I have also been referring to Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen's Simplified Horary Astrology;
The information that helped me to zero in on some missing jewelry came from Alphee Lavoie's "Lose This Book...and Find It With Horary"

I will post the summary I did when analyzing my grandma's chart later on.

I believe we are very close to finding the ring(s), which correlates with the timing indicator of 6 months (we are only 3 days past the 6 month mark for my mother's question; still in the sixth month)

I had mentioned to Cypocryphy that we had drawn another chart at a later date (which I felt was invalid, because it turned out the Moon in this chart was not VOC; the chart details had been mistaken when transferred to another program) and that chart (around May 4th I believe, I will double check) insinuated a timeline of 3 weeks.

I'll post any further updates! Hopefully we find it soon!!
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