Calculating Exact POF - Day or Night?

Pietra

Member
I'm getting two different POF (point of fortune) results depending on whether I use the day or night formula. I use astro.com to create my charts.

  • When I use the night formula (sun in 3rd house), my POF is in the 5th house.
  • When I use the day formula (moon in 12th house), my POF is in the 8th house.
When I read about these POF locations, both seem to apply not completely accurately but both seem fairly accurate.

What's your experience? Which one is the correct one to use?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I have always used the day formula for diurnal and the night formula for nocturnal: Ptolemy, and several later authors (such as Ibn Ezra) advocated using the day formula regardless of day or night; however, the great majority of Greco-Roman (and later) practitioners used day formula for day and night formula for night.

I have been largely satisfied in the accuracy of using the POF according to either the day or the night formula, as appropriate for either day or night charts (birth charts, event charts, mundane charts, etc)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Do you have a day or night birth? Use the correct formula for your birth time.

When in doubt, the Astrodienst free chart pages will calculate it for you, if you add it in as an additional chart factor from their menu.
 

Pietra

Member
Do you have a day or night birth? Use the correct formula for your birth time.

When in doubt, the Astrodienst free chart pages will calculate it for you, if you add it in as an additional chart factor from their menu.

That's the thing, Astrodienst's site placed my POF in the 2nd house automatically using the night chart. I was born after midnight. But when I clicked to use the day configuration, it put the POF in the 8th house, which is what my astrologer used.

That's where my confusion comes in. Although with a sun in the 3rd house and a moon in the 12 house, and being born right after midnight, which configuration is correct?

I read though at least a dozen 2nd house POF and 8th house POF descriptions and they both seem to apply, which confuses me even more. :crying:
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
I always use the day formula. The part of fortune (as + moon - sun) will always be the part of fortune and the part of spirit (as + sun - moon) will always be the part of spirit no matter the time of birth. These parts flow in accordance with the phases of the moon. During a new moon both parts are conjunct the ascendant of the chart, and they move along the houses opposite of each other to meet up at the descendant during the full moon.

One way to figure out the meaning of the POF in your own chart is to look up the sabian symbol that corresponds to the degree it is found in. Symbolically the POF is not simply about material wealth, it represents the idea or precept that will propel our spiritual success.

Post me the exact degrees (degrees and minutes) of the day and night formulas and I will post the sabians symbols for them.
 
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Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
I'm not sure where to look these up. Are you talking about the degrees and minutes of the sun and moon?

If you add the POF to the chart at astrodienst it will tell you the degree. You can pick to use day formula or not so just do it both ways and see what comes up.
 

Pietra

Member
If you add the POF to the chart at astrodienst it will tell you the degree. You can pick to use day formula or not so just do it both ways and see what comes up.

The day time formula puts my POF in the 8th house at 06/22. The night time formula puts my POF in the 5th house at 17/04.
 
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Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Day time part of fortune in the 7th degree of scorpio:

"SCORPIO 7°):*DEEP-SEA DIVERS.

KEYNOTE:*The will to explore the hidden depths of all experiences and to search for primordial causes.

This symbol essentially refers to depth psychology — a coming to terms with the collective Unconscious and its contents. This type of depth-plumbing adventure is basically different from the one symbolized by the gold rush, for it can take place within the individual and with no relation to social value. It refers symbolically to a quest for "under-standing" — i.e. for what lies under the surface waves of daily living. This quest may lead to great dangers. It demands a strong will and good breathing — i.e. a degree of spiritual strength. It usually challenges powers hidden in the depths of the unconscious.

The contrast between "deep-sea divers" and "men of the gold rush" is significant. It presents in an interesting manner the opposition between a first stage and second stage symbol in the five-fold sequence of cyclic phases. The inward quest opposes the outward search for the great social symbol, gold. It should lead to a*DEPTH REALIZATION*of the very roots of consciousness."

Day time part of soul (night time pof) in the 18th degree of cancer:

"CANCER 18°):*A HEN SCRATCHING THE GROUND TO FIND NOURISHMENT FOR HER PROGENY.

KEYNOTE:*The practical concern with everyday nourishment necessary to sustain one's outreaching activities.

Every mother is originally responsible for the feeding of her progeny, and all the activities into which a person has poured his energy are his symbolic children. He has to feed them with social substance gathered from "the ground" of his community, and to watch with concern over their unfoldment. The tender stem consolidates into the tree trunk, the chicken into the hen, the infant into the theoretically self-reliant and socially wise adult.

This third stage of the twenty-second five-fold sequence shows the results of the two previous stages. Seed, germ and the growing plant requiring the chemicals of the soil for its daily growth form a clear sequence. What is at stake here is the*FULFILLING OF LIFE'S RESPONSIBILITIES."
 

Pietra

Member
Thank you so much for posting these! I had researched both POF locations online but didn't come across these descriptions anywhere.

What's funny is that I've been called a "mother hen" by my students (I always want to protect everyone and make sure that all my "chicks" are caught up with the course material. However, because of the work I do the 1st description definitely is much more accurate than the second one.

Fascinating! Thank you. :kissing:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I have always used the day formula for diurnal and the night formula for nocturnal: Ptolemy, and several later authors (such as Ibn Ezra) advocated using the day formula regardless of day or night; however, the great majority of Greco-Roman (and later) practitioners used day formula for day and night formula for night.

I have been largely satisfied in the accuracy of using the POF according to either the day or the night formula, as appropriate for either day or night charts (birth charts, event charts, mundane charts, etc)
FREE online
MULTIPLE Arabic Parts aka Lots calculator :smile:

http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php
 

Pietra

Member
FREE online
MULTIPLE Arabic Parts aka Lots calculator :smile:

http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php

Great resource, thank you for posting, JupiterAsc!

Okay, I seemed to have figured out the POF using this calculator, which is great.

I'm checking some of the other verifiable things from the drop-down menu. For example, I have a daughter. What exactly does the result mean? It gives me some degree and minutes in Taurus, but she is a Virgo. Once I have that result, what do you do with it?
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
I just wish to add that as for the Part of Spirit ...it is also known as the Part of Soul, which might aid in the understanding as to the Sabian symbolism.
Every five degrees through the Zodiac the symbolism changes in nature and it does that three times and then repeats itself. Each of the three are identified and labeled as levels , by the late great Dane Rudhyar, and He labeled the first five degrees of a Sign that of "Actional". The second five (degrees 6 through 10) "Emotional/Cultural" and the third group of five degrees (degrees 11 through 15) that of "Mental/Individual".

I've proposed a few different terms for the three levels but I'll keep this strictly "by the book", according to Dane.
Your Part of Fortune is that which you must activate via the symbolism in the manner appropriate to your provenance in life.

For an example. I believe that Yeshu'a of Nazareth aka Jesus Christ, was born with a Part of Fortune in the 19th degree of Pisces which has the Sabian Symbol of "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE", which out of all the 360 possible symbols one might find to be their Lot in life (pun intended) that of the 19th of Pisces couldn't be more appropriate.

The 19th degree is in the 1st level of the second set of three in the Sign of Pisces and therefor it is an "Actional" symbol. It must be actively applied in ones lif in order to produce the most fortuitous circumstances that will assist you in fulfilling your life's dharma. When one has the Part of Fortune conjunct their M.C. it is considered to be most fortuitous as the M.C. represents the "HOW" of the chart axis symbology, i.e. the four Sings and their degrees of the Asc., Desc., M.C. and I.C., which all together are your basic life path imprint. or blueprint if you prefer. Who, Where-to, (or Whom-to), How and Why. To follow a spiritual path one reads the M.C. as "HOW" and the I.C. for "WHY" and the reverse for mundane readings and horary and such. (this is where I do diverge from Rudhyar but all his writings indicate that He was aware of the two possibilities but likely never amassed enough evidence to prove it). To have ones' Part of Fortune conjunct their M.C. ...the "HOW" of you life path imprint is one and the same as that which produces the most fortuitous circumstances. For a mundane chart it is most fortuitous to have it conjunct the I.C.
Now, maybe you can understand better, why it is so important to keep the diurnal, nocturnal birth question out of it?
To switch them around only leads to "the wrong marching orders"... imh, but much experienced, opinion.

As you have the 7th degree of Scorpio for you Part of Fortune, which happens to be a significant degree Sabian Symbol from my own chart, I know it well. It is an Emotional/Cultural symbol and what it is describing is the attitude, the persona, the psyche that you should assume in your day to day life.

As Rudhyar sated in the text he wrote for that degree, (From "An Astrological Mandala"), "It refers symbolically to a quest for "under-standing" — i.e. for what lies under the surface waves of daily living." and as Dane went on further in the summary, (and, please note that the symbol for Scorpio 06* is about the 'Gold Rush' tearing men away from their homes and native lands) (ibid.), "The contrast between "deep-sea divers" and "men of the gold rush" is significant. It presents in an interesting manner the opposition between a first stage and second stage symbol in the five-fold sequence of cyclic phases. The inward quest opposes the outward search for the great social symbol, gold. It should lead to a DEPTH REALIZATION of the very roots of consciousness."

This should become your 'core consciousness", how you should see yourself in human society, as one not allured by the material things that the world offers but that of a man of great understanding of what lies beneath the cause and effects of the human condition.

The Part of Soul/Spirit, I have found to be about what the Soul must realize at some point in life and it is about the Soul.

I can think of a few examples that might make explaining it easier but to be honest the one that you might best understand is that of my own Part of Soul.
I lived my life up to age 51 believing that I was nothing more than a college dropout turned tradesman that lived by the labor of sweat and muscle all those years and suddenly "washed up" with physical injuries at age 47. Six months to the day after I turned 51 I found that there was a second calling for me that was far beyond any I would have ever dreamed of and I subsequently discovered, through the aid of an excellent clairvoyant that had already proven their talent to me via other matters, that I am the reincarnation of someone that was "born for a purpose in service to a higher power", God if you prefer.

It was from that which led to the understanding that I learned that the Sabian Symbols are symbolically active, that the symbolism is actually descriptive of the aforementioned "Life Imprint or Blueprint" via the chart axis, and that the Astrological Parts, and that of all the House cusps as well.
Thus properly enlightened I finally understood what my Part of Soul in the 10th degree of Aquarius meant as to in relation to myself.
Check it out, if you will?
(ibid.)

"AQUARIUS 10°: A MAN WHO HAD FOR A TIME BECOME THE EMBODIMENT OF A POPULAR IDEAL IS MADE TO REALIZE THAT AS A PERSON HE IS NOT THIS IDEAL." ...and Rudhyar's summation and "keyword(s)" (in bold type) are, "This fifth symbol in the sixty-second sequence brings to our attention an issue that is basic and may confront us in various forms. Person versus archetype. This can mean a critical need for SELF-REVALUATION."

As for having been the embodiment of a popular ideal goes, I was about the best at y number one trade, painting, that one might find and back in that day I was known to all as "Painter Dave", whether they knew my last name or not or anything else about me.

I hope this helps you in the understanding.
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Great resource, thank you for posting, JupiterAsc!

Okay, I seemed to have figured out the POF using this calculator, which is great.

I'm checking some of the other verifiable things from the drop-down menu. For example, I have a daughter. What exactly does the result mean? It gives me some degree and minutes in Taurus, but she is a Virgo. Once I have that result, what do you do with it?

If you are referring to the Part of Daughters, that particular Part is one of a number that I have yet to find is accurately labeled as being just that.
It likely does indicate a Daughter(s) in regards to horary charts but I'm still deliberating as whether or not that it has to do, or has to do strictly I might say, with "Daughters" as regarding natal charts.
I have a thread that is a sticky at the top of this sub-forum that is one all the know, and yet unknown, Astrological Parts... not just the Arabic, but all Parts and, or Lots, that one might possibly have come across and a couple few there seems to be no known previous record of that I've proposed ... and they follow the, more or less, "traditional template of formulae construct" as to their nature of derivation.
It is an ongoing effort and I try to keep it constantly updated with any new discoveries or further refinements...and sometimes deleting a proposal that didn't work out.
As most astrologers were only involved with mundane and horary charts until the late 19th early 20th century it stands to reason that the majority of Parts were so labeled as they presently are as they were only used for such purposes.
For an example of one that has two obvious different applications take the Part of Surgery, Asc. + Saturn - Mars...which has to do with the most opportune time to have such matters taken care of. But it is also known as the Part of Army/Police and that would be for use in national charts, certain questions pertaining to horary, and such.

I hope this answered your question.
 

sadge

Well-known member
I am not from the parts department. And clearly the posts above me are from people who have studied this area more in depth. But one more opinion to thrown into the pot is how Hand's big astro orgasm from Project Hindsight was his discovery that we should be using a separate night formula. I can't remember where or when I read it....but a lot of his stuff is all over the place and easily accessible.

Good night and good luck. :rightful:
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
I am not from the parts department. And clearly the posts above me are from people who have studied this area more in depth. But one more opinion to thrown into the pot is how Hand's big astro orgasm from Project Hindsight was his discovery that we should be using a separate night formula. I can't remember where or when I read it....but a lot of his stuff is all over the place and easily accessible.

Good night and good luck. :rightful:

Terrific, why don't you ask Mr Hand how the rest of the Arabic Parts are used. Ask Him, of what use is the Part of Hyleg?

Hand gives away his books for free now, does that tell you anything?
( A genuine "Handout":lol:)
 
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