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Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


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  #1  
Unread 10-29-2019, 05:12 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Not seeing it, myself. But, with my Moon and Venus in Aquarius, maybe I'm inclined to overlook the expected affliction. Any Aquarian Suns have some insight on the matter?
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Unread 10-29-2019, 09:38 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

The native does not see his astrological affliction as an affliction. I suppose he/she is too close.

I have Sun, Mars,Jupiter and Neptune all in exile, and they all seem normal to me. It's all I've ever known.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 10:21 AM
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The native does not see his astrological affliction as an affliction. I suppose he/she is too close.

I have Sun, Mars,Jupiter and Neptune all in exile, and they all seem normal to me. It's all I've ever known.
The first three are all assertive in their own right, regardless of placement. Maybe viewing from an "outsider's" vantage point provides objectivity.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 10:22 AM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Not seeing it, myself.
But, with my Moon and Venus in Aquarius, maybe
I'm inclined to overlook the expected affliction.
Any Aquarian Suns have some insight on the matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

The native does not see his astrological affliction as an affliction.

I suppose he/she is too close.

I have Sun, Mars,Jupiter and Neptune all in exile, and
they all seem normal to me.
It's all I've ever known.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


The first three are all assertive in their own right, regardless of placement.
Maybe viewing from an "outsider's" vantage point provides objectivity.
generously FREE from Charlie Obert
at http://theastrologypodcast.com/2018/...YNlDgSz2m19brA
In episode 156 of THE ASTROLOGY PODCAST astrologer Charles Obert
explains the concept of essential dignities and debilities
and how they are used
to determine the condition of a planet in an astrological chart.
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Unread 11-03-2019, 11:19 AM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

The native does not see his astrological affliction as an affliction.

I suppose he/she is too close.

I have Sun, Mars,Jupiter and Neptune all in exile, and
they all seem normal to me.
It's all I've ever known.
keep in mind that the OP is NOT "a Tropical Aquarius"
here's the evidence
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Hi! My Community name is David Starling.

My Sun is at 28 degrees Pisces,

Ascendant, Mercury and "the red planet" all solidly in Pisces;
Moon and Venus in Aquarius; Jupiter in Scorpio
Saturn in Leo,
Uranus in Gemini, Neptune in Libra
and Pluto in Leo.
I am very happy to have found this website!
however clearly IF the OP is considering the option of their SIDEREAL planetary placements
then
their interest may be with regard to a SIDEREAL AQUARIUS sun
EXCEPT THAT a sun at 28 degress PISCES
is a PISCES Sun IRRESPECTIVE of SIDEREAL or TROPICAL considerations
in any event
the OP has made it clear
this thread explores TROPICAL AQUARIUS
and NOT sidereal Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Since 1967. I'm a Tropicalist,
although I respect Sideralism
--different angle of view of the same thing.
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Unread 11-03-2019, 12:25 PM
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
keep in mind that the OP is NOT "a Tropical Aquarius"
here's the evidence

however clearly IF the OP is considering the option of their SIDEREAL planetary placements
then
their interest may be with regard to a SIDEREAL AQUARIUS sun
EXCEPT THAT a sun at 28 degress PISCES
is a PISCES Sun IRRESPECTIVE of SIDEREAL or TROPICAL considerations
in any event
the OP has made it clear
this thread explores TROPICAL AQUARIUS
and NOT sidereal Aquarius
Whether or not I'm a sidereal Sun Aquarius depends on the ayanamsa. There are many who believe the sidereal Aquarian Age has already begun. In which case the first point of tropical Aries has already crossed over into sidereal Aquarius, and that would make me a late Sun Aquarius in a sidereal Chart.

Last edited by david starling; 11-04-2019 at 12:22 AM.
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Unread 11-03-2019, 10:13 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Whether or not I'm a sidereal Sun Aquarius depends on the ayanamsa.


There are many who believe the sidereal Aquarian Age has already begun. In which case the first point of tropical Aries has already crossed over into sidereal Aquarius, and that would make me an late Sun Aquarius in a sidereal Chart.
Sun in Essential Detriment in TROPICAL Aquarius is thread title topic
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Unread 10-29-2019, 09:59 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

The astrologer sees them as in debility and understands the use and significance of the condition. The native knows only what he has been given, and has nothing to compare it with.
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Unread 10-29-2019, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The astrologer sees them as in debility and understands the use and significance of the condition. The native knows only what he has been given, and has nothing to compare it with.
So who connects the two perspectives, if the mapmaker has never been to the country?
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Unread 10-30-2019, 12:41 AM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

I have sun in Aquarius. I don't view it as a big debility. Aquarians can come across as somewhat aloof or not fully present to the other person, but on planet Aquarius we are the normal ones.
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Unread 11-09-2019, 01:32 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

I have sun in Aquarius.
I don't view it as a big debility.
Aquarians can come across as somewhat aloof
or not fully present to the other person, but on planet Aquarius
we are the normal ones.
"normal planet Aquarius people" such as the following

Very Idham Henyansyah AQUARIUS serial killer born February 1st 1978
Jombang, Jawa Timur, Indonesia received a college degree, married Eny Wijaya
had no children, was homosexual
aka the Singing Serial Killer
aka Ryan, the artistic name he adopted while awaiting his execution in prison.
Henyansyah recorded an album and wrote his autobiography while in prison.
Seven pieces of a human body found in bags hidden in two locations
near Ragunan Zoo in South Jakarta on Saturday 12 July 2008.
He was arrested 15 July 2008 Age 30
convicted on 6 April 2009 Age 31
sentenced to death by firing squad at Kesambi Penitentiary, Cirebon, Indonesia.
Henyansyah confessed to murdering 11 people including a toddler.
Henyansyah buried 10 of his victims at his parents' home in the backyard
while the last one was butchered and hidden at the zoo.
He was known to rob, mutilate his victims whom he killed at both his home
and the home of the victim.
He would keep personal items from the victim after the crime.
His autobiography is listed on google books
although there is no way to purchase or preview the book.
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Unread 11-10-2019, 06:40 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
"normal planet Aquarius people" such as the following
Hi JUIPTERASC.

My Kepler database does not have a large number of serial killers and none had Aquarian Suns.

You keep listing serial killers with Aquarian Suns, but not once have you attempted or even show that the Aquarian Sun is the causal factor.

Statistically, you will find serial killers with Leo Suns, and here are some in all signs:

ARIES
1. Wayne “The Vampire Rapist” Boden … 3 victims
2. Joseph “The Racist Killer” Franklin … 7-22 victims
3. Donald Harvey … 37-57 victims
4. Keith “The Happy Face Killer” Jespersen … 8 victims
5. Paul “The Casanova Killer” Knowles … 18-35+ victims
6. Herbert Mullin … 13 victims
7. Charles “The Serpent” Sobhraj … 12+ victims
8. Christopher “The Beauty Queen Killer” Wilder … 8-9+ victims
TAURUS
1. Martha “The Lonely Hearts Killer” Beck … 3-17 victims
2. Albert “The Moon Maniac” Fish … 3-9+victims
3. Amy Archer-Gilligan … 10-50 victims
4. H. H. “The Torture Doctor” Holmes … 9-200 victims
5. Earle “The Gorilla Killer” Nelson … 22+ victims
GEMINI
1. David “Son of Sam” Berkowitz … 6 victims
2. Kenneth “The Hillside Strangler” Bianchi … 12 victims
3. Richard “The Dracula Killer” Chase … 7 victims
4. John “The Michigan Co-Ed Killer” Collins … 1-7+ victims
5. Jeffrey “The Milwaukee Cannibal” Dahmer … 17 victims
6. Peter “The Monster of Dusseldorf” Kurten … 9+ victims
7. Leonard Lake … 11-25 victims
8. Danny “The Gainesville Ripper” Rolling … 8 victims
9. Arthur “The Monster of the Rivers” Shawcross … 14 victims
10. Peter “The Yorkshire Ripper” Sutcliffe … 9+ victims
11. Wayne “The Atlanta Child Killer” Williams … 23-29 victims
12. Robert Lee Yates … 16 victims
CANCER
1. John Reginald “The Monster of Rillington Place” Christie … 8 victims
2. Gary Heidnik … 2+ victims
3. Genene Jones … 2-60 victims
4. Carl Panzram … 5-22 victims
LEO
1. John “The Acid Bath Killer” Haigh … 6-9 victims
2. Myra “The Moors Murderer” Hindley … 5 victims
3. Anthony “The Cleveland Strangler” Sowell … 11 victims
VIRGO
1. Rodney “The Dating Game Killer” Alcala … 8-130 victims
2. Richard “The Angel of Death” Angelo … 8 victims
3. Paul “The Schoolgirl Killer” Bernardo … 3-4 victims
4. Richard “The Thrill Killer” Biegenwald … 6-9+ victims
5. Albert “The Boston Strangler” DeSalvo … 13 victims
6. Ed “Psycho” Gein … 2+ victims
7. Harrison Graham … 7 victims
8. Henry Lee Lucas … 157+ victims
9. Gerald Stano … 22-41+ victims
10. Marybeth “The Bad Mom” Tinning … 1-9 victims
LIBRA
1. Angelo “The Hillside Strangler” Buono, Jr. … 12 victims
2. Gerald “The Love Slave Killer” Gallego … 10 victims
3. Patrick “The Freeway Killer” Kearney … 21-43 victims
4. Bobby Joe “The Classified Ad Rapist” Long … 10+ victims
SCORPIO
1. Alton Coleman … 8 victims
2. Nannie “The Giggling Granny” Doss … 11 victims
3. Belle “Hell’s Belle” Gunness … 40+ victims
4. William “The Lipstick Killer” Heirens … 3 victims
5. Charles Manson … 7 victims
6. Carl Eugene “The Sunday Morning Slasher” Watts … 22-100 victims
SAGITTARIUS
1. Ted Bundy … 30-36+ victims
2. Alton Coleman … 8 victims
3. Richard “The Torso Killer” Cottingham … 6+ victims
4. Carlton “The Stocking Strangler” Gary … 7 victims
5. Edmund “The Co-Ed Butcher” Kemper … 10 victims
6. Dennis “The Monochrome Man” Nilsen … 12-15 victims
CAPRICORN
1. Joe “The Alligator Man” Ball … 2-20 victims
2. William Bonin … 21-36+ victims
3. Ian “The Moors Murderer” Brady … 5 victims
4. Dean “The Candy Man” Corll … 28+ victims
5. Vincent “The Brooklyn Strangler” Johnson … 5 victims
6. Charles Ng … 11-25 victims
AQUARIUS
1. Jerry “The Lust Killer” Brudos … 4 victims
2. Robert “The Butcher Baker” Hansen … 17-21+ victims
3. Derrick Todd “The Baton Rouge Serial Killer” Lee … 7+ victims
4. Joel Rifkin … 9-17+ victims
PISCES
1. John Wayne “The Clown Killer” Gacy … 33-34 victims
2. Donald Henry “The Meanest Man in America” Gaskins … 9+ victims
3. Randy Steven “The Scorecard Killer” Kraft … 16-67 victims
4. Richard “The Night Stalker” Ramirez … 14 victims
5 Ottis Toole … 6+ victims
6. Gary “The Green River Killer” Ridgway … 49-90+ victims
7. Dennis “The BTK Killer” Rader … 10 victims
8. Dorothea “The Death House Landlady” Puente … 3-9 victims
9. Douglas “The Sunset Slayer” Clark … 7 victims
10. Raymond “The Lonely Hearts Killer” Fernandez … 3-17 victims
11. Christopher “The Beauty Queen Killer” Wilder … 8-9+ victims
12. Aileen Wuornos … 7 victims

You may keep listing them if you wish, but you just look foolish.

You have failed to show Sun in Aquarius is in detriment, so let's dispense with the stupidity already.
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  #13  
Unread 10-30-2019, 08:22 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
So who connects the two perspectives, if the mapmaker has never been to the country?
What is, is. That's what is communicated to the native. I need not tell the client his Sun is "debilitated in Aquarius". That is meaningless to him. I need to tell him how wonderful he is.
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Unread 10-30-2019, 11:51 AM
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

I would say Sun in Aqua is highly functional, and good at overcoming adversity. It's a good example for exploring the concept of "debilities", which may not be as bad as it sounds.
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Unread 10-30-2019, 12:20 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

The modern-day definition of "debility" is "health-related physical weakness".
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Unread 11-13-2019, 10:44 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

.

Gary Ray Bowles is an American AQUARIUS serial killer born 25 January 1962 Clifton Forge, Virginia.
Bisexual, never married had no children, was known to abuse alcohol and drugs
and beat and strangled six men to death to steal their credit cards in 1994.
He was known to kill at the home of the victim.
At the time of his crimes he was living alone homeless in Florida, Georgia and Maryland
where he was known to work as a prostitute.
Bowles became a suspect after police found his fingerprints and probation records at a crime scene
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


I would say Sun in Aqua is highly functional, and
good at overcoming adversity.
It's a good example
for exploring the concept of "debilities", which
may not be as bad as it sounds.

Bowles murdered five other men
in Nassau County, Florida; Jacksonville, Florida; Savannah, Georgia; Atlanta, Georgia; and Wheaton, Maryland.
Bowles was placed on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Fugitive List.
Gary Ray Bowles was arrested 22 November 1994 Age 32
convicted 6 September 1996 Age 34
sentenced to death by electrocution at Union Correctional Institution, Florida State Prison
Raiford Prison in Raiford, Florida, US.
.
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Unread 10-30-2019, 03:57 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The astrologer sees them as in debility and understands the use and significance of the condition. The native knows only what he has been given, and has nothing to compare it with.
Sounds like you're saying an astrologer can't grok his or her own Chart, because of being too immersed in it.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 12:02 AM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

I have an interesting situation - I'm an Aquarius sun, Mercury, Uranus, and Neptune with Aquarius ruling the 8th house. Pretty safe to say that my life has been... Different.

I notice the detriment sometimes, but more often I'm aware that 8th house aspects are more prevalent in my life. For example, sometimes I'll see a Leo who is obviously very Leo and I'll be reminded that my sense of self isn't fully developed yet. But, as soon as I leave their presence, I'm reminded that I have Mercurian, Uranian, and Neptuniun things to do like research the Nag Hammadi library, enlighten into the sign of Pisces, simply or be an eccentric Uranian Aquarius.

It's interesting because I feel my consciousness moving forward into the next sign (Pisces) but I also feel like I have Aquarian parts of me that will never go away, and so that's a kind of tug-of-war I experience inside of myself, one that I argue is more prevalent than the Sun detriment in Aquarius. At least for me ;p.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 05:20 AM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

They are called "Essential" dignities. Things essential are not conditional. The debilities are also essential.

Essential dignities are those related to the signs: domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term and face.

They represent inherent, immutable qualities.

A planet in its domicile has power. Usually it works for the good. But there is never a guarantee.

For example, Mars in Scorpio is in domicile and empowered. But we shouldn't forget that the intrinsic nature of Mars has left him branded as "the Lesser Malefic". He will act according to his nature, and Mars stirs things up.

The other type of dignity, based on things other than sign, is called "accidental" dignity. They represent things adventitious that deeply affect our development. Angularity is a common form of accidental dignity.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-31-2019 at 05:43 AM.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 05:53 AM
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
They are called "Essential" dignities. Things essential are not conditional. The debilities are also essential.

Essential dignities are those related to the signs: domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term and face.

They represent inherent, immutable qualities.

A planet in its domicile has power. Usually it works for the good. But there is never a guarantee.

For example, Mars in Scorpio is in domicile and empowered. But we shouldn't forget that the intrinsic nature of Mars has left him branded as "the Lesser Malefic". He will act according to his nature, and Mars stirs things up.

The other type of dignity, based on things other than sign, is called "accidental" dignity. They represent things adventitious that deeply affect our development. Angularity is a common form of accidental dignity.
So, you're saying Sun in Aquarius is inherently weak in some way or other, as a generalization? I haven't noticed that in practice. What evidence supports the theory in your experience (not necessarily in your own case).
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Unread 11-14-2019, 01:31 PM
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

So, you're saying Sun in Aquarius is inherently weak in some way or other, as a generalization?

I haven't noticed that in practice.

What evidence supports the theory in your experience
(not necessarily in your own case).
Yoshio Kodaira was a Japanese AQUARIUS
serial killer and rapist
born 28 January 1905 Tochigi, Tochigi Prefecture, Japan.
Kodaira Married, had no children
Kodaira killed his father-in-law in 1932
and eight to ten women in Japan between 1945 and 1946.
In the 1920s, Kodaira was deployed to Northern China
as a sailor in the Imperial Japanese Navy and participated in the Jinan incident.
Hetrosexual Kodaira engaged in acts of necrophilia with the corpse after the fifth murder
and stuck a sword into the belly of a pregnant woman.
He was arrested on 20 August 1946 Age 41, convicted on 16 November 1948 Age 43
sentenced to death by hanging
at Miyagi Prison in Wakabayashi-ku, Sendai, Miyagi Prefecture, Japan.
Yoshio Kodaira was executed by hanging on 5 October 1949 age 44
at Miyagi Prison in Wakabayashi-ku, Sendai, Miyagi Prefecture, Japan.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 06:24 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Let's try to see how dignity works out. Mohammad Ali was a fighter, a warrior.
But his Mars is in Detriment in Taurus. And his Sun is "weak" by house, standing in the 6th. All three planets in the 10th of fame and glory (ditto Sun) are retrograde.

So how did this guy get to be champion of the world, The Greatest?

Here we see Sun, the Tenth House, and warrior Mars all debilitated...producing a king.

So maybe I don't quite understand the effects of the dignities as well as I should.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Let's try to see how dignity works out. Mohammad Ali was a fighter, a warrior.
But his Mars is in Detriment in Taurus. And his Sun is "weak" by house, standing in the 6th. All three planets in the 10th of fame and glory (ditto Sun) are retrograde.

So how did this guy get to be champion of the world, The Greatest?

Here we see Sun, the Tenth House, and warrior Mars all debilitated...producing a king.

So maybe I don't quite understand the effects of the dignities as well as I should.
Understanding the concept of Dignities and Debilities is my latest project. I find it much easier to correlate the Dignities. "Strength" and "weakness" appear to be inadequate descriptions.

Last edited by david starling; 10-31-2019 at 07:38 AM.
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Unread 10-31-2019, 02:18 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Understanding the concept of Dignities and Debilities is my latest project.

Then you're in luck - there's a detailed explanation
on

UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY DIGNITY AND DEBILITY
at
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance at all times
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Unread 11-01-2019, 05:59 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Sun in Essential Detriment in Tropical Aquarius

There's a misconception about Aquarius as an Age-sign that seems somewhat widespread: That it will be a dictatorship ruled by elite, shadowy types, and will require conformity to what they dictate. Not sure where this perception is from, but from what I've seen, Sun Aquarians are individualistic, and allow others to be the same. They also don't like forcing others to follow their agenda. "If it works for you, fine", when it comes to astrology, appears to be an Aquarian attitude. Not seeing that as a "debility".
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