Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology > Research and Development

Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #476  
Unread 02-18-2015, 06:51 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroLogical View Post
GOOD ENTRY, muchacho
Yeah, I'm waiting for a good answer to this as well.

I don't think it is black and white. In other words, there are not sharp lines driven between any of the symbolism. Like roots from plants that live next to each other, subtle qualities may reside in multiple planet/symbols. Good examples can be found throughout.

i.e. Anger and aggression (not exclusively) can be tied to Mars, Pluto, Sun, Moon, Saturn, (even Venus during PMS) as each processes the stimulus evoking anger differently. But they do not happen independently. They resonate together.
You are right, it's not black and white. You can find similarities between a lot of signs and planets, not only those that belong to the same element. That is also true for opposite qualities. I've already mentioned that here in reply to Dirius' list of identical qualities of Mars and Scorpio. And even where there is agreement, on a more subtle level, they differ still.

That's why it is important to grasp the essence of a sign or planet instead of just memorizing a long list of what planet/sign rules what or else the subtle nuances remain unnoticed. That's the main difference I've noticed between the traditional camp and the modern camp. The traditionalist is more detail oriented while the modernist seems to care more about the big picture. And I speculate the reason for that is because the modernist realizes the power of conscious thought and the traditionalist is either unaware of it or ignores it because it messes with his rigid system.

__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan

Last edited by muchacho; 02-18-2015 at 06:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to muchacho For This Useful Post:
astralrabbit (02-18-2015)
  #477  
Unread 02-18-2015, 06:57 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
As Paul_ has explained:

Modern rulerships were assigned

not because of some arduous research and investigation

- as you often hear from many modern astrologers

but instead

astrologers of the time,
cogniscant of the tradition of rulership,
basically went ahead and followed Ptolemy's logic,
by assigning the next planet out with the next sign out.
So flowing from the Sun is the rulership scheme which normally reflects back to the Moon,
but breaking this they just carried on projecting out from the sun.
So the next out from the Sun is Mercury, then Venus, then Mars, then Jupiter and then Saturn,
and then when Uranus was discovered we see astrologers explicitly invent the rulership to Aquarius
because Aquarius is the next sign out after Capricorn,
then when Neptune comes along it's assigned the next one out which is Pisces.

This is explicitly stated in the very earliest sources we have for modern rulership.

So the outer planetary rulerships came about by trying to stay true to the tradition at large,
and absolutely not by channelling
or study of numerous charts.


In the context of rulership even the modern rulership scheme bows to the traditional logic as much as it can.
It does not reinvent anything,
instead it recognises the superiority of the traditional schema
and tries to accommodate itself into it as much as it can
Okay, since you just keep repeating or paraphrasing the same old quote over and over again, I take this as a "I don't really know how to deal with the elephant in the traditional room and rather like to ignore it"...
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to muchacho For This Useful Post:
StillOne (02-18-2015), waybread (02-19-2015)
  #478  
Unread 02-18-2015, 08:02 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
It is one thing to give the signification of something simple: love, war, time, royalty, pleasure, feelings, luck, good, evil, lust, anger, etc.

Those are specific things. The signification of planets and signs are, and have always been simple. Signs do posses combinations of this things, but they've never been complicated things.

Saying stuff like:"pluto rules hidden taboos in sexuality" is just adding abstract adjectives to try to insert pluto into the rulership of sexuality, when he doesn't.

Obviously, when an author is just adding stuff they like for the sake of doing, anything can be added.



So in your definition, any sign is the same? rofl

You don't seem to understand. I suppose that what you are asking is for a psychological reading. So:

- Are the moon/mars/saturn oriental or occidental?
- Is the moon close to the sun, with light?
- Is it a day or night chart?
- Do mars or saturn rule a malefic, fortunate or angular house?
- Is any of those planets combusted?
- At what stage of the helyacal/acronical cycle are the planets?
- Are they retrograde or direct?
- Are they stationary or slow?
- Are they at average speed or above average speed?
- Is the conjunction with mars applying or separating?
- Is the conjunction with saturn applying or separating?
- If applying, which conjunction comes first?
- If separating which conjunction was last?
- Are the moon, mars and saturn above or below the ground?
- Is any of them ruler of the Asc (assuming quadrant system)?
- What degree of Libra do this conjunctions take place?
- Is there any important fixed star, in the degree the conjunctions take place?
- What is the sign that rules the 3rd house (if assuming quadrant system)?
- Are there any other planets in libra aside from those mentioned?
- Is the lot of spirit present in Libra?
- Where is the ruler of Libra (Venus) placed at?
- Is venus oriental/occidental/slow/retrograde/direct/etc.?

What exactly you want from the explanation of those things? A mere personality reading? Or a disposition of the individual towards certain things?

In traditional astrology, when we analyze the persoanlity of an individual, we sort of do this check for every planet that has to be analyzed. Of course, we usually don't waste time doing personality readings. But that is how it is done

Let me give you a short traditional explanation. Since you are asking mostly about the Moon:

First of all, we analyze the amounts of multiple testimonies. Given that you'd rather have me just focus on a mere conjunction of planets, I will look for the testimonies of the Moon, and how it is influenced by both saturn and mars.

The moon represents feelings. A moon with a lot of light (far from sun), indicates a person that understands their feeligns and what they want, a moon without light (close to the sun), the opposite. Of course this is trumped by the relation of the moon to the Asc ruler, as in trining the asc implies a connection which allows one to express those feelings, while if not aspecting the Asc ruler, implies a disconnection and the opposite. Also the moon in Libra (sign of fall for the Sun), in bad reception with the Sun (the will), implicates an inability to be able to connect the feelings with the will, as if the will would reject the feelings, making the individual act in a different way that what he or she really wants.

Now in a chart mars usually rules the aggresive side of the personality (anger, rage, etc), but a well placed mars can indicate courage, in this case might influence the way the person expresses the feelings, but a badly placed mars (in Libra), can indicate cowardice, specially if its occidental (femenine side), and if retrograding or slow unable to overcome it, so an implication of the individual unable to express or follow his or her feelings, because of its cowardice nature. It can also indicate a degree of rage when trying to express the feelings, or being overcame with rage by being unable to express them (and individual that is too afraid to express its feelings, getting angry instead of saying what he or she wants). The conjunction with saturn usually indicates coldness or negation of what one wants. But a well placed saturn, indicates a disposition for a more moderate and calm contact, turning more into a rational way of looking at feelings. Obviously the same rules apply, as in retrogarde/direct/combusted/etc influence how saturn really acts upon its contact with the moon. Then we look if the conjunctions are applying or separating, and which of them comes first or was last, giving more influence to the planet with the most recent contact towards the moon. If mars comes first, the individual's feelings are more subjected to the individual's cowardice/rage, rather than to the individuals rationality. But if saturn comes first, the individual is at least able to rationalize their feelings, rather than let them submit to its cowardice. Obviously the relation to the Asc is still in place, which allows one to express such feelings in the first place or not, as is the proper placement of the planets given the nature of their sect for a diurnal/nocturnal nativity.

Finally, the implication of finding the moon in the 3rd house of kin/brothers (which relates to communication), might find the way for the individual to want to express said feelings, still bound by the other aspects to either fail or succed in doing so. The fact that the 3rd house is a "cadent" house implies that this tendency to express feelings might develop further in life, but with the moon being comfortable in the 3rd (it is moon's house of joy) helps the individual in his or her task of communicating said feelings eventually.

See no need for abstract meanings as: "revolutionary, intense, hidden, taboo, spiritual, etc." These adjectives that are usually employed are pointless.

Of course, there are a LOT of other factors. I'm not well versed into "psychological" astrology. Obviously the modern definition is probably very different, I expect something like:

"You are a great person that expresses your feelings with courage, and you are awsome at what you do, and the intensity of your moon gives you the strength to express your feelings to the world in a spiritual manner...blah blah blah"

I would love to see the simplified modern version of it
Thanks for the effort, Dirius. I appreciate it. It highlights the differences between the traditional and modern approach once again. I actually just wanted to know how, in general, a Mars/Saturn conjunction modifies the qualities of a planet, sign or house in comparison to a Pluto conjunction in order to test your theory. And obviously your system doesn't allow general statements.

Anyways, as you've already guessed, the modern interpretation will definitely be more general because the modernist usually honors free will and is also not so much into the good/bad paradigm. Where modernists differ may be the degree to which they are free from the good/bad paradigm and the role conscious thought plays in their general ontology.
So there won't be a standard modern interpretation.

From my point of view, there are no inherently good or bad influences. There are only good or bad moods which can give good or bad results. And these moods can't be seen in the chart. They are entirely in the hands of the individual and a moment to moment thing. What's shown in the chart is just some kind of trajectory, a general orientation and not at all a fate. It only becomes fate in combination with our general mood by the power of Law of Attraction. But our mood can be changed any moment by the power of our own focus and so our fate can be modified as well.

Said that, I hope it's clear why I recommend more general interpretations. And since you seem to have a more fatalistic view on things and consider predictive astrology the true astrology, I can also understand why you would prefer specifics over generalities. So there is not much common ground possible between your view and my view, we both seem to be representatives of two opposing extreme ends. Nevertheless, I got a great deal of clarity from this discussion and I hope you can say the same. I really enjoyed it. I'm not here to convince anyone and I think it's best that we leave it at that.

I had a great deal of respect for traditional astrology. But somehow that vanished after this debate. So if anyone should ask me in the future why I have lost almost all respect for traditional astrology, I'll point back at you and this debate.

Cheers!
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to muchacho For This Useful Post:
astralrabbit (02-18-2015), StillOne (02-18-2015)
  #479  
Unread 02-18-2015, 09:12 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,682
Re: Confused about Pluto

LOL?

Excuse me muchacho, you OWE me a modern interpretation, to see what "your technique" can do. I took the trouble to delineate that, so the proper courtesy would indicate you would show me your modern interpretation.

So please, explain from your point of view, how is moon affected by those conjunctions from the modern very general point of view.

Quote:
Anyways, as you've already guessed, the modern interpretation will definitely be more general because the modernist usually honors free will and is also not so much into the good/bad paradigm.
No its not about "free will", because many aspects of our personality are not "choices", they work how they work. People have BAD personality traits. That is a fact. Ignoring them isn't better.
Quote:
From my point of view, there are no inherently good or bad influences. There are only good or bad moods which can give good or bad results. And since you seem to have a more fatalistic view on things and consider predictive astrology the true astrology, I can also understand why you would prefer specifics over generalities. So there is not much common ground possible between your view and my view, we both seem to be representatives of two opposing extreme ends.
It os not a fatalistic look on life. It is a realistic one. If you rather live in magical dreamland, where every person is good, and people don't have bad traits, that is your choicer. I rather live in the realistic world, and apply a realistic view

So in your opinion a very generalized interpretation of astrology that can apply to pretty much anyone, is better?

Instead of an interpretation that actually does tell the individuals exact personallity traits?

Traditional astrology can pin point the specific personality traits. Without eomploying general things that can account to anyone. That is the beauty of it.

People have bad personality traits. It is a fact.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 02-18-2015 at 10:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (02-18-2015)
  #480  
Unread 02-18-2015, 09:21 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66,846
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Okay, since you just keep repeating or paraphrasing the same old quote over and over again, I take this as a "I don't really know how to deal with the elephant in the traditional room and rather like to ignore it"...
Clearly, since you keep repeating your question
it is obvious that you have not read my answer to your question
and you prefer to continue ignoring the elephant in the modern astrological room
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #481  
Unread 02-18-2015, 09:44 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66,846
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post

Now let us talk about Uranus;
I believed my Mars just tickled it!
This thread is specifically on answering a question clearly perplexing the OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScorpio View Post
Hi everyone,

I am very confused about Pluto after reading the following...
and what I can't understand or grasp is why Pluto was assigned as ruler of Scorpio?
attempting to avoid the elephant in the modern astrological room
with the red herring of Uranus
is counterproducting

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post
Oh but wait, I forgot my binoculars!
by the way
Uranus is defidnitely not 'a naked eye planet'
so
you'll need more than binoculars to view Uranus
clear skies are necessary
you'll have to know exactly where to look for Uranus.
because
Uranus is barely visible to a keen naked eye ~ even on very dark, clear nights

so

take a hike to some rural location where there is no light pollution, as is common in cities
choose a moment when there are clear skies

even then you won't notice Uranus unless you have a starmap

and

a small telescope is recommended

and so

be prepared to invest a few coins
http://space.about.com/od/telescopes...copepoints.htm

'.....When hunting Uranus, it is best to carefully study a star map of that part of the sky where the planet is located
and then scan that region with binoculars.
With a small telescope with at least a 3-inch aperture
and magnification of 150-power,
you should be able to resolve Uranus into a tiny, pale-green featureless disk......'


thousands of years ago astrology began when people began observing the sky at night

Today, the vast majority are so out of touch with visual sky observations

people are often confused simply due to unfamiliarity with the sky at night
and
many assume that a Tropical astrology chart shows the visible location of planets/stars
instead
Tropical astrology instead shows the location of planets/stars as they once were more than two thousand years ago

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #482  
Unread 02-18-2015, 09:58 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66,846
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Anyways, as you've already guessed, the modern interpretation will definitely be more general
generalisation, although fun, is unreliable
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

because the modernist usually honors free will
'free will' is limited
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

and is also not so much into the good/bad paradigm.
discuss that with the homeless person on the street
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Where modernists differ
may be the degree to which
they are free from the good/bad paradigm
and the role conscious thought plays in their general ontology.
Traditionalists also take into account the role of conscious thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

So there won't be a standard modern interpretation.

How convenient that 'modernists' invent generalisations at will
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Dirius (02-18-2015)
  #483  
Unread 02-18-2015, 10:28 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,682
Re: Confused about Pluto

Like JUPASC mentioned, you can ignore the good/bad paradigm if you want. It doesn't make it go away, it is still there.

If a person asks for a delineation on its personality, traditional methodology can account for a lot of things. Giving general readings that can apply to anyone are simply not accurate.

I actually gave you a "small" delineation of what you asked for. I could tell you more things about that moon conjunct mars/saturn in the 3rd in Libra.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (02-18-2015)
  #484  
Unread 02-18-2015, 01:52 PM
astralrabbit astralrabbit is offline
Account Closed
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 365
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
This thread is specifically on answering a question clearly perplexing the OP:

attempting to avoid the elephant in the modern astrological room
with the red herring of Uranus
is counterproducting



by the way
Uranus is defidnitely not 'a naked eye planet'
so
you'll need more than binoculars to view Uranus
clear skies are necessary
you'll have to know exactly where to look for Uranus.
because
Uranus is barely visible to a keen naked eye ~ even on very dark, clear nights

so

take a hike to some rural location where there is no light pollution, as is common in cities
choose a moment when there are clear skies

even then you won't notice Uranus unless you have a starmap

and

a small telescope is recommended

and so

be prepared to invest a few coins
http://space.about.com/od/telescopes...copepoints.htm

'.....When hunting Uranus, it is best to carefully study a star map of that part of the sky where the planet is located
and then scan that region with binoculars.
With a small telescope with at least a 3-inch aperture
and magnification of 150-power,
you should be able to resolve Uranus into a tiny, pale-green featureless disk......'


thousands of years ago astrology began when people began observing the sky at night

Today, the vast majority are so out of touch with visual sky observations

people are often confused simply due to unfamiliarity with the sky at night
and
many assume that a Tropical astrology chart shows the visible location of planets/stars
instead
Tropical astrology instead shows the location of planets/stars as they once were more than two thousand years ago



My apologies; if one were to read carefully, they would see that the discussion quickly turned into a traditionalist versus a modernist view. Simple as that. For those who think in a lineal fashion straight into a box; Forgive my ad hoc humor~
Reply With Quote
  #485  
Unread 02-18-2015, 02:09 PM
astralrabbit astralrabbit is offline
Account Closed
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 365
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Like JUPASC mentioned, you can ignore the good/bad paradigm if you want. It doesn't make it go away, it is still there.

If a person asks for a delineation on its personality, traditional methodology can account for a lot of things. Giving general readings that can apply to anyone are simply not accurate.

I actually gave you a "small" delineation of what you asked for. I could tell you more things about that moon conjunct mars/saturn in the 3rd in Libra.
My first encounter with Astrology came with some really bad advice that I took out of naivety. It is important to really see and understand what is happening with the Native. If the Native had Pluto conjunct a specific inner natal planet making no other connection (not just aspect) to a "traditional malefic"; how would you be able to catch that and see that potential energy as a negative manifestation so that you would be able to alter how you speak to that person? It was only maybe 2 months ago that a member that is now banned contacted me asking whether or not the potential to go prison was there for a long time because the native was angry at the lover's ex partner" blecch....those are tough when you get those. There were significant hard outer-planetary contacts with in this individuals chart to the Moon and Mercury. You have to handle those accordingly. Removing the outer planets for me, would remove a lot of important detail out that is sorely needed. Yes they are generational as well but they say something about the zeitgeist of the moment and that is extremely important when pertaining to the individual psyche.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to astralrabbit For This Useful Post:
StillOne (02-18-2015), waybread (02-19-2015)
  #486  
Unread 02-18-2015, 03:08 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66,846
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post

My apologies; if one were to read carefully, they would see that the discussion quickly turned into a traditionalist versus a modernist view.
Simple as that. For those who think in a lineal fashion straight into a box; Forgive my ad hoc humor~
No need to apologise

Since modernists tend to think "in a linear fashion straight into a box of ad hoc humor"
then this situation is not unexpected
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #487  
Unread 02-18-2015, 03:22 PM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,682
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post
My first encounter with Astrology came with some really bad advice that I took out of naivety. It is important to really see and understand what is happening with the Native. If the Native had Pluto conjunct a specific inner natal planet making no other connection (not just aspect) to a "traditional malefic"; how would you be able to catch that and see that potential energy as a negative manifestation so that you would be able to alter how you speak to that person? It was only maybe 2 months ago that a member that is now banned contacted me asking whether or not the potential to go prison was there for a long time because the native was angry at the lover's ex partner" blecch....those are tough when you get those. There were significant hard outer-planetary contacts with in this individuals chart to the Moon and Mercury. You have to handle those accordingly. Removing the outer planets for me, would remove a lot of important detail out that is sorely needed. Yes they are generational as well but they say something about the zeitgeist of the moment and that is extremely important when pertaining to the individual psyche.
You are failing to notice that EVERYTHING can be explained without the outer planets.

The example you are giving about a Native having a planet that makes no aspect to any other planet, can be explained by many different things.

There are more things aside planetary aspects in charts: essential dignities, speed, position in relation to the sun, reception through signs, house placement, etc.

The problem is that in your methodology you just use few tools (planetary aspects), while in traditional methodology the tools are plenty, and harder to use of course.

According to waybread, things like essential dignities are not employed much, for example. And this actually can give a lot of information regarding the personality of an individual.

Any side of the personality can be explained without using outer planets.

Using delineations such as: your moon conjuncts pluto so "this and that", is an over-simplification of the astrological practice. And this isn't just for the outers, also for stuff like:"Sun trine Mars is this or that". It isn't so simple.

It is the methodology that fails, so in order to make more sensitive delineations, outer planets like pluto are sort of "inserted" into the delineation, in order to make up for things difficult to explain (that would just require a traditional observation).

But in doing so, you are just adding a lot of significations, usually inaccurate, to a simple thing that could be explained more precisely.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 02-18-2015 at 03:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (02-18-2015), Oddity (02-18-2015)
  #488  
Unread 02-18-2015, 04:14 PM
AstroLogical's Avatar
AstroLogical AstroLogical is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Central California Foothills
Posts: 210
Re: Confused about Pluto

I appreciate your sense of humanity.
__________________
The deeper your belief the greater you commitment to uphold that belief... until it becomes your truth.
Reply With Quote
  #489  
Unread 02-18-2015, 05:12 PM
astralrabbit astralrabbit is offline
Account Closed
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You are failing to notice that EVERYTHING can be explained without the outer planets.

The example you are giving about a Native having a planet that makes no aspect to any other planet, can be explained by many different things.

There are more things aside planetary aspects in charts: essential dignities, speed, position in relation to the sun, reception through signs, house placement, etc.

The problem is that in your methodology you just use few tools (planetary aspects), while in traditional methodology the tools are plenty, and harder to use of course.

According to waybread, things like essential dignities are not employed much, for example. And this actually can give a lot of information regarding the personality of an individual.

Any side of the personality can be explained without using outer planets.

Using delineations such as: your moon conjuncts pluto so "this and that", is an over-simplification of the astrological practice. And this isn't just for the outers, also for stuff like:"Sun trine Mars is this or that". It isn't so simple.

It is the methodology that fails, so in order to make more sensitive delineations, outer planets like pluto are sort of "inserted" into the delineation, in order to make up for things difficult to explain (that would just require a traditional observation).

But in doing so, you are just adding a lot of significations, usually inaccurate, to a simple thing that could be explained more precisely.
The mere fact that you mentioned," the tools are harder", illustrates your sense of intelligence is far more superior than a modernist. Your inability to even try to incorporate the experimentation of any of the outer planets in a traditional methodology is what will always hold you back from being more than you choose to be. If the OP was inquiring about the energy of Pluto then why do you speak on it as if you are an expert when you do not even include it as part of your practice. As I said earlier in the thread, the Arabic parts seemingly were created to explain the observation of energies that the original planetary and star energies could not. the human race is always searching for the answers to those deeper questions. The birth of psychological astrology was obviously a very much needed step in our evolution, to provide such relief.
Reply With Quote
  #490  
Unread 02-18-2015, 05:24 PM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,682
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post
The mere fact that you mentioned," the tools are harder", illustrates your sense of intelligence is far more superior than a modernist. Your inability to even try to incorporate the experimentation of any of the outer planets in a traditional methodology is what will always hold you back from being more than you choose to be. If the OP was inquiring about the energy of Pluto then why do you speak on it as if you are an expert when you do not even include it as part of your practice. As I said earlier in the thread, the Arabic parts seemingly were created to explain the observation of energies that the original planetary and star energies could not. the human race is always searching for the answers to those deeper questions. The birth of psychological astrology was obviously a very much needed step in our evolution, to provide such relief.
I never implied I'm more intelligent. Just that I employ techniques and methods that are much harder to apply, than what "general" modern astrology employs- which is true.

You can certainly look at all the questions I asked to muchacho regarding the chart. It is not "just looking at the moon mars conjunction", it is checking a lot of things.

I don't need to incorporate anything. Classical planets as they are, already provide me with much more information that what you get with outer planets.

The hermetic lots have nothing to do with energies. As I explained, they are representations of the middle points in which the Asc (the self) meets the planet which the lot is related to.

The implication about the outer planets is that they provide "additional information". This is not needed.

Using traditional techniques, you get all the information, so you don't really need outer planets.

[deleted off-topic quote - Moderator]
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-19-2015 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #491  
Unread 02-18-2015, 07:04 PM
alexandre alexandre is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 10
Re: Confused about Pluto

I would like to say that as I 'm very Plutonian, I will not tell all details about my life , but I know that Pluto have huge effects in my life, so I know that astrologers which don't use Pluto in their interpretations won't talk about some very important sides into my personality and my life and that is a reel failure.

I have had plenty of prooves in others forums (french and others) , that traditional astrologers were less accurate and efficent (about my portrait) than modern astrologers because when I discovered astrology (about 3 years ago), I have wanted that astrologers gave me what they thought about me, according to my birthchart, and the differences between traditional and modern were absolutely significative(!). At this time, Ididn't know nothing about the differences between modern and traditional astrologers. But thanks to these significative differences I could make the decision to study modern astrology which, in my opinion, much more accurate and efficient in drawing a portrait and also for predictive expectations.

I intend now to discover then, fictive points, because I have noticed some very interesting and accurate things about that.

Nonetheless, I find it very important to respect each kind of astrology. And I never allow me to direspect traditional astrologers of course.

Excuse me for my wrong english.
Attached Images
File Type: gif astro1.gif (47.5 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by alexandre; 02-18-2015 at 07:16 PM. Reason: correct mistakes
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to alexandre For This Useful Post:
astralrabbit (02-19-2015), StillOne (02-18-2015), waybread (02-19-2015)
  #492  
Unread 02-18-2015, 07:16 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66,846
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandre View Post

I would like to say that as I 'm very Plutonian, I will not tell all details about my life , but I know that Pluto have huge effects in my life, so I know that astrologers which don't use Pluto in their interpretations won't talk about very important side in my personality and my life and that is a reel failure.
If you describe what exactly is meant by "I'm very Plutonian"
that would be helpful

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandre View Post

I have had plenty of prooves in others forums (french and others) , that traditional astrologers were less accurate and efficent than modern astrologers because when I discovered astrology (about 3 years ago), I have wanted that astrologers give me what they think about me according my birthchart, and the difference between traditional and modern were absolutely significative(!). At this time, Ididn't know nothing about the differences between modern and traditional astrologers. But thanks to these significative differences I could make the decision to study modern astrology which, in my opinion, much more accurate and efficient in drawing a portrait and also for predictive expectations.

I intend now to discover then, fictive points, because I have noticed some very interesting and accurate things about that.

Nonetheless, I find it very important to respect each kind of astrology. And I never allow me to direspect traditional astrologers of course.

Excuse me for my wrong english.
If you have not studied traditional astrology then you lack the ability to read your own natal chart using traditional methods
to say that members on a forum were 'much more inaccurate' is meaningless
because many members on forums, french or otherwise, are complete beginners and practicing their skills
IF you ever had a professional traditional reading from a respected tradtional astrologer
such as
http://www.martingansten.com/nr.php
then you would have a very different opinion
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #493  
Unread 02-19-2015, 07:03 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 15,920
Re: Confused about Pluto

Unique_astrology, I take your point about entrenched positions. I took a brief holiday from the aggravation on this thread for that reason. I am about done with it, but found some champions of modern astrology fighting the good fight.

[deleted off-topic comments - Moderator]

My re-edit:
To Dirius-- not Unique_Astrology Tim changed my meaning, unfortunately:

I've cited several books on Pluto for you. Some of this homework should include reading the earlier pages on this thread. Some of it is nearly self-evident, like Pluto ruling the atomic bomb. Try to be OK with abstractions. And I'd love to see what you do with the Elizabeth Smart chart and biographical material I posted/linked in light of what's been posted here about Pluto.

Are you willing to post your chart with the modern outers? The behaviour I've described is very Plutonian. Pluto has an uncomfortable energy that is very easy for people to suppress and deny, such that it shows up for them as "not-me." Sometimes behaviours that are apparent to everyone else are news to the native.

If you don't "need" the outer planets, that's fine. Nobody has argued that you must use them.

Most modern astrologers are fine with people practising traditional western, Vedic, Tibetan, Mayan, Chinese, Uranian, or what-have-you astrology, if that's what floats their boats, and horoscope natives feel they've gotten value from the chart interpretation. So there is a power-dynamic at work with someone arguing that he's got the true methodology, such that its nearest competitor must be suppressed.

Please realize that the traditional horary astrology that you love and practice (with all of your carefully listed diagnostics) is fine, but it is not the standard against which other forms of astrology can be judged.; any more than we would claim that the German language is bad French; or American football's problem is that it doesn't follow the rules of soccer. None of these examples has to justify itself according to some kind of neo-conservative template to validate its existence.

So far as the time-line fallacy goes, traditional western astrology was hooted out of existence in Europe by about 1700. Part of the reason was that in practice a lot of it was really inaccurate (see the Jonathan Swift/Isaac Bickerstaff caper and advances in medicine without the benefit of medical astrology vanquished university astrology's primary reason for inclusion in the curriculum.

Some of us would rather help people make sense of their lives than find the missing car keys or determine whether some young man will text an anxious young woman he's scarcely met-- over and over. I'd rather work with the woman's natal chart to see what is her approach to relationships more generally, when she seems to be grasping at relationship straws. And sometimes, depending upon the chart, an outer planet like Pluto does help her to learn about herself.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 02-20-2015 at 07:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #494  
Unread 02-19-2015, 02:29 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
LOL?

Excuse me muchacho, you OWE me a modern interpretation, to see what "your technique" can do. I took the trouble to delineate that, so the proper courtesy would indicate you would show me your modern interpretation.

So please, explain from your point of view, how is moon affected by those conjunctions from the modern very general point of view.
Haha, well, then you still owe me a Pluto interpretation! What I remember still owing you is a list of Scorpio/Mars differences. And I'm planning to do that in a separate thread since it's more complex than I initially thought. Haven't had the time so far.

What Pluto is adding to the mix is emotional depth, heightened sensitivity and great earnestness and a very rare type of determination which basically knows no limits and doesn't fear anything, not even total self-annihilation.

What Mars-Saturn is adding to the mix is Mars' restlessness, boldness and hot temper which will be tuned down considerably by Saturn's carefulness, slowness and inflexibility.

So, to focus on just one aspect of the 3rd House, communication, the Libra Moon will be rather soft-spoken, enjoy debates as long as they remain civil, quick-witted, probably an excellent story-teller and actor but emotionally speaking rather cool and detached, maybe even shallow, because the interest is more in smooth sailing along pleasing surfaces than applying effort and looking what's really going on beneath.

The Libra Moon conjunct Mars-Saturn, however, will be a little more blunt, doesn't mind to disagree and can stomach a noisy debate where things get personal. At the same time, feelings will be much more under control, but when they are expressed, it will be more temperamental. Generally speaking I would expect communication to be more tight-lipped and to the point.

The Libra Moon conjunct Pluto will also be more blunt and doesn't mind to disagree or shy away from debates when things get personal. The main difference to the Mars-Saturn is the enormous emotional depth and sensitivity. The native won't be fooled by nice words but rather (unconsciously) pick up the vibe that's behind the words and will be more interested in what's behind the curtain while the pure Libra Moon would be satisfied with the curtain as long as it is pleasing.

So, to sum it up, the pure Libra Moon will be interested in saving face and avoid ruffling any feathers and prefer a smooth, effortless, civil and lively but rather superficial style of communication (e.g. small talk or entertainment); the Libra Moon conjunct Mars and Saturn will be interested in meaningful activity and prefers a more stimulating and more meaty style of communication (e.g. politics and world affairs); the Moon conjunct Pluto will be interested getting to the bottom of things without much ado and will prefer a communication style that is investigative and straight to the point (e.g. existential questions).

I think the main fallacy or misconception about Pluto is in assuming that Pluto is fiery. If Pluto is really the ruler of Scorpio, than it has to belong to the water element. And so it should be clear that Pluto can never be a mixture of Mars and Saturn since we don't get water qualities after mixing earth qualities with fire qualities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
No its not about "free will", because many aspects of our personality are not "choices", they work how they work. People have BAD personality traits. That is a fact. Ignoring them isn't better.
It os not a fatalistic look on life. It is a realistic one. If you rather live in magical dreamland, where every person is good, and people don't have bad traits, that is your choicer. I rather live in the realistic world, and apply a realistic view

So in your opinion a very generalized interpretation of astrology that can apply to pretty much anyone, is better?

Instead of an interpretation that actually does tell the individuals exact personallity traits?

Traditional astrology can pin point the specific personality traits. Without eomploying general things that can account to anyone. That is the beauty of it.

People have bad personality traits. It is a fact.
I agree that, seen from this physical perspective, we didn't choose our personality. Where I disagree is that there are good and bad traits. Good and bad are subjective value judgements, i.e. compared to what? One character trait can be considered good in one situation and bad in another situation. And in another culture or era in time, it could be considered differently still. There's no absolute right or wrong outside of you. That's why I prefer general interpretations. There's a lot of latitude in those traits. Let's take the Pluto Moon as an example. On a good day, the ability to sense what's behind the surface and the tendency to get straight to the point can be used constructively to keep conversations focused and sincere and no-nonsense, on a bad day, it can be used destructively for backhanded games of deception. It all depends if the native is in alignment or out of alignment with his inner core.

So, in that sense, I would agree that people can become predictable to a certain degree. We can predict how they deal with certain conditions. What we cannot predict, however, is if they deal with those conditions constructively or destructively. That depends entirely on the mood in the moment, which again depends on a number of other things.

The problem I have with traditional astrology is that it uses descriptions that have positive or negative connotations by default, and too often there are only extremes.
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan
Reply With Quote
  #495  
Unread 02-19-2015, 02:46 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Like JUPASC mentioned, you can ignore the good/bad paradigm if you want. It doesn't make it go away, it is still there.

If a person asks for a delineation on its personality, traditional methodology can account for a lot of things. Giving general readings that can apply to anyone are simply not accurate.

I actually gave you a "small" delineation of what you asked for. I could tell you more things about that moon conjunct mars/saturn in the 3rd in Libra.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against specific readings per se. If you have the native sitting next to you, you can adjust your interpretation to his circumstances and level of awareness. You can basically get so specific that you could talk about the type and quality of their socks. The question is not is it possible, the question is, is it necessary or helpful?

And in a rather anonymous situation like this forum, jumping right into the specifics can be shocking for some (see the reaction from astralrabbit!). What you have to keep in mind is that people tend to take things literally. Also, don't underestimate the power of self-fulfilling prophecies and the power of conscious thought, i.e Law of Attraction.

So, personally, I don't really want to quibble with your interpretation, it's fine with me, except that you could throw out the good/bad stuff. But I'm not sure if your system allows that.
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan
Reply With Quote
  #496  
Unread 02-19-2015, 02:56 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You are failing to notice that EVERYTHING can be explained without the outer planets.
That's an interesting challenge. Let's test it with this chart and see if the outer planets make no difference whatsoever. I invite the modernists to post their interpretation of the 3 outer planets in this chart and the traditionalists to explain how these interpretations can be explained with the traditional planets alone. You can also only focus on Pluto if it's too much effort.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg astro_2gw_03_example_hw.39966.9512.jpg (117.5 KB, 7 views)
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan

Last edited by muchacho; 02-19-2015 at 03:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to muchacho For This Useful Post:
astralrabbit (02-19-2015)
  #497  
Unread 02-19-2015, 03:08 PM
astralrabbit astralrabbit is offline
Account Closed
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 365
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against specific readings per se. If you have the native sitting next to you, you can adjust your interpretation to his circumstances and level of awareness. You can basically get so specific that you could talk about the type and quality of their socks. The question is not is it possible, the question is, is it necessary or helpful?

And in a rather anonymous situation like this forum, jumping right into the specifics can be shocking for some (see the reaction from astralrabbit!). What you have to keep in mind is that people tend to take things literally. Also, don't underestimate the power of self-fulfilling prophecies and the power of conscious thought, i.e Law of Attraction.

So, personally, I don't really want to quibble with your interpretation, it's fine with me, except that you could throw out the good/bad stuff. But I'm not sure if your system allows that.
The delivery is important. I think that is the most important part of connecting with the individual that is seeking guidance. The labeling of good/bad is a negative and I personally have a great distaste for it, as do other "modern" astrologers that I know and that is the Biggest turn off with "traditional" astrology in my observation.
Reply With Quote
  #498  
Unread 02-19-2015, 03:16 PM
astralrabbit astralrabbit is offline
Account Closed
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 365
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
That's an interesting challenge. Let's test it with this chart and see if the outer planets make no difference whatsoever. I invite the modernists to post their interpretation of the 3 outer planets in this chart and the traditionalists to explain how these interpretations can be explained with the traditional planets alone. You can also only focus on Pluto if it's too much effort.



Game on~
Reply With Quote
  #499  
Unread 02-19-2015, 03:39 PM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,682
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
That's an interesting challenge. Let's test it with this chart and see if the outer planets make no difference whatsoever. I invite the modernists to post their interpretation of the 3 outer planets in this chart and the traditionalists to explain how these interpretations can be explained with the traditional planets alone. You can also only focus on Pluto if it's too much effort.
Chart file is not displayed

Of course we can, but depends on what you want your outtake to be:

If you explain something like neptune-conjunct sun in the 12:"your misterious self awararness grants you a a resolution for spiritual evolution....etc"

We are clearly able to describe a person, but we do it in a more realistic down to earth way- So while the test is interesting, depends on the expected results.

I've noticed by your post that perhaps that is why we can't get to an agreement, given that the nature of the outers, you grant to them significances we consider a bit unreal, for example:

Quote:
What Pluto is adding to the mix is emotional depth, heightened sensitivity and great earnestness and a very rare type of determination which basically knows no limits and doesn't fear anything, not even total self-annihilation.
We don't deal on unrealistic terms. Emotional depth for example, not sure what could imply:

- as in is the person supceptible to emotional needs? is able to understand its emotions? is all day thinking about its emotions?

We can analyze those things, but we do it as seperate objective things, not mash-up significations of feelings.

For example that mention of pluto is similar to what I said of the moon disconnected from the Asc or its ruler, a person that may or may not be able to connect to its emotions. If we would find the moon in mutual reception with the Asc ruler, could be considered what you can qualify as "emotional depth", but we would call it a person that is aligned and supceptible with its feelings.

The explanations for those kind of things will obviously be able to be explained: once you break it down into objective things.

Obviously if you expect for us to find an explanation to: "spiritual evolution", we clearly won't, since we don't believe in that.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (02-19-2015)
  #500  
Unread 02-19-2015, 03:58 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,768
Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralrabbit View Post
The delivery is important. I think that is the most important part of connecting with the individual that is seeking guidance. The labeling of good/bad is a negative and I personally have a great distaste for it, as do other "modern" astrologers that I know and that is the Biggest turn off with "traditional" astrology in my observation.
Yes, it really depends on the individual that is seeking advice. That's why I say chart interpretation is always a psychic endeavor. And some just want a good/bad reading. We have to accept that, too. Personally, I wouldn't do it though.
__________________
“Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do.” ― J.P. Morgan
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
confused, pluto

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.