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  #51  
Unread 11-22-2014, 07:33 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by SunW View Post
Is your Moon in the 8th house or in Scorpio or does it rule the 8th house?
No, I have a 5th H Moon Sagittarius & Pluto in Scorpio in 5th as well.
The 8th House is ruled by Saturn (Aquarius)- Mercury in Aquarius 8th H
& Venus Pisces in the end of the 8th House.




Quote:
Sasportas writes about the "magical thinking" that some people with Pluto-Mercury aspect have. Such people might believe that their thoughts influence other people and create events (often negative events). They may wrongly believe that their thoughts are able to cause the death of other people. Do you have such thoughts?

no, honestly maybe when I was a kid I predicted some things but nowadays I use my intuition.No magical thinking



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Was your birth easy? Or was there any danger for your life? People with Pluto in aspect to the Asc are often born with their ulimbical cord around their neck.
no it wasn't easy.I was born very prematurely via an emergency c-section. I spend the first weeks of my life alone in a incubator.I can't find this in my chart though.

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  #52  
Unread 12-23-2014, 01:27 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by SunW View Post

I want to ask those who have any major Sun-Pluto aspect, even if it is a positive aspect about its influence. I suppose the relationship with the father and with the father's family is very important and has a great influence on the native.

Probably the father or another person from the father's lineage has something to do with police, military, psychology, the secret service. Most probably, in the lineage of the father, there are events connected with murder, major crimes and other events where some crime or something else was the cause of death or great suffering for the relatives of the native.
Also, the father might have a bad relationship with his family and the family migth be angry with him.

What is your relationship with your father or even with your grandfather (the father of your father) if you have such an aspect? And what was the relationship of your father with his own father?

Was there any manipulation or were there any dominance issues with your father or probably he used to have such problems in his family?
I have Sun-Pluto square, though out of sign (Sun late Cancer, Pluto early Scorpio). Also have Moon-Pluto square and Merc-Pluto square (t-square)

-I have very strong Pluto synastry with my grandfather (father's father); Pluto square Pluto, his Pluto conjunct my Sun/Mercury. We don't have a very close relationship. He scares the **** outta me. He's a very stubborn and domineering man. Passive aggressive. A Scorpio Moon.

-My relationship with my dad is emotionally distant, but otherwise fairly good. On an intellectual level we get along great. It was a lot more strained when I was young and he was still drinking. His relationship with his father also seems distant. I can tell he feels left out of family matters; but I think the family doesn't think he shows enough interest and support.

-Both father and grandfather have alcohol problems. My dad's brother has a history of being suicidal. Their mother died when they were young. My grandfather remarried their grief counselor. Then she died a few years later (she was abusive towards my father; he says he used to hide in the closet after school until his father came home). After that woman died, my grandpa remarried again to a woman whose son and grandchildren died in a fire. My uncle's wife died a few years ago and my grandpa's sister died last year. Reunions tend to have this undercurrent of sadness. It seems all the men in my dad's family are cursed to lose the women in their lives.

-I am my father's only child, and his brother has none. Their sister is carrying on the family with two children and so, unless I keep my last name after getting married, our family name dies with me as the youngest member who still uses it.

-I had an drunk, violent criminal stepfather who started doing hard drugs just before my mother left him. Those were some terrible years.

I guess I'll say this: As far as paternal side of things go, I don't know what it means to really have a father or feel supported by a male. That kind of relationship has always been somewhat mythical, although I've had good mentoring relationships with some men, and I love my partner, but it's not really the same thing. With authorities, it's always felt it more of a relationship of equals in many ways, or an imbalance of power... if only because I've never had the illusion of authority figures being great and wise, but more often troubled, lost and even pitiful in the case of my stepfather.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 12-23-2014 at 01:40 AM.
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  #53  
Unread 12-24-2014, 05:03 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Quote:
I guess I'll say this: As far as paternal side of things go, I don't know what it means to really have a father or feel supported by a male. That kind of relationship has always been somewhat mythical, although I've had good mentoring relationships with some men, and I love my partner, but it's not really the same thing. With authorities, it's always felt it more of a relationship of equals in many ways, or an imbalance of power...
My children's mother's both have this aspect. One is a Cancer Sun and Asc Square Pluto and Saturn. The other a Capricorn Sun , Cancer Asc, with both square Pluto. The aspect to the Ascendant is closer. Both Women's fathers were distant during their childhood. Both of there fathers took there brothers when they were young as well and did not have much to do with the women.
Sigh....It was always tough being able to see that pain and work with it, because they only knew anger and sadness. And when they are hurt they seemingly exacerbate that same energy or power so to speak in effort to protect their emotional well being, not realizing that they are in effect creating the same damage that they experienced as children. Can I say that all folks with this aspect will act this way. I can't say for certain, for I have only have these two women with this aspect to study,out of all of the charts that I have. I know this is a very powerful aspect that can easily precipitate out of control when the energy of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorn", is executed. My advice to any one with this aspect is to recognize this energy and learn to work with it in a positive expression and not to allow it to create a repetitive cycle.

Last edited by astralrabbit; 12-24-2014 at 05:15 AM.
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  #54  
Unread 12-24-2014, 07:26 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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My children's mother's both have this aspect. One is a Cancer Sun and Asc Square Pluto and Saturn. The other a Capricorn Sun , Cancer Asc, with both square Pluto. The aspect to the Ascendant is closer. Both Women's fathers were distant during their childhood. Both of there fathers took there brothers when they were young as well and did not have much to do with the women.
Interesting to have the Sun closer to Asc or Dsc for the different women. That signals an experience that is much more self-focused/other-focused than the Sun alone would suggest.

My Sun/Mercury is in the 3rd house. My half-siblings are also distant/inaccessible, much older than me, and my brother was raised by his father (my brother has Sun/Pluto tightly conjunct and the apex of a kite formation).
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  #55  
Unread 12-25-2014, 02:09 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
Interesting to have the Sun closer to Asc or Dsc for the different women. That signals an experience that is much more self-focused/other-focused than the Sun alone would suggest.

My Sun/Mercury is in the 3rd house. My half-siblings are also distant/inaccessible, much older than me, and my brother was raised by his father (my brother has Sun/Pluto tightly conjunct and the apex of a kite formation).
The Father's that I speak on above are very executive power oriented gentleman. Very strong willed. They were done with the drama that was happening pertaining to there situation and just ended it by leaving and taking their sons. That, of course, left issues of abandonment for the women and set the stage for a strong desire to heal that reality in whatever manner feasible to their sub-conscious. Now worth mentioning is that both of the women's mothers have a Sun Pluto Square as well. I just noticed this!
In the case of one of the mother's, her parents were addicted to heavy illegal drugs and alcohol and ended up having all of the children taken by the social services, with power struggles ensuing during the return of the children. The other mother's father was a pilot in the Navy. He was never there for being deployed the majority of his career, from my understanding and her mother was a high school teacher; very tough woman.
In reflection of the stories spoken to me by all of these women, I can report that they all had this sense of no control or structure over what was happening in their lives as children and I can not help but to feel that that instability of routine lacking the most important men of their lives was a very significant driving force that is reflected in their drive to control what they can with in there environment, thus a wonderful a reflection of the Sun square Pluto aspect. Worth mentioning is that 3 out of the 4 have a Cancer Sun or Ascendant. I feel like that is significant considering the nature of the Cancerian stereo-type.

If I may ask a question about your brothers chart? What planet is the focal point of that Kite formation?
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  #56  
Unread 12-29-2014, 11:24 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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If I may ask a question about your brothers chart? What planet is the focal point of that Kite formation?
He has Sun/Pluto (Libra) opposite Moon (Aries).

My brother is very close to his father. They are in business together farming, landscaping, woodworking and mining for precious stones on a large property. He went to live with his father when he was a boy. I think it was a good decision for him, as his father is a very loving, gentle and capable person who has taken great care of him. I'm actually a little jealous.
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  #57  
Unread 01-03-2015, 04:19 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
He has Sun/Pluto (Libra) opposite Moon (Aries).

My brother is very close to his father. They are in business together farming, landscaping, woodworking and mining for precious stones on a large property. He went to live with his father when he was a boy. I think it was a good decision for him, as his father is a very loving, gentle and capable person who has taken great care of him. I'm actually a little jealous.
I observe in his chart what you state here. I would have to say that his chart conveys a sense of devout inner determination needed to mold such earth into a way of life.

You know; It is so easy for us to replicate that energy of our up bringing if we do not make an attempt to direct our energies into breaking the cycle once we are aware that we are unhappy with those cycles that we continue to create. We just have to keep pushing for an inner peace that is there right~
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  #58  
Unread 01-03-2015, 08:15 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

I am returning (briefly) after a long time away from this site, and am interested in this discussion, as Pluto fascinates me.

I have Sun-Pluto conjunction in Leo in 7th house ........

My father (Scorpio Sun and Mercury - no idea of his time of birth, and he's been dead almost 27 years) was very distant emotionally, and communicated negative. rules-based issues to me via my mother. He was a tea-totaller, and a staunch church-goer, so how he interpreted the Bible became the Rules To Live Our Lives By. There was never any negotiating these `rules'. (I also have Capricorn Rising, so issues to do with rules and authority have been around me all my life. Plus, my chart ruler is in the 8th house)
I have repeated this relationship with my (now) ex-husband, who has Scorpio Asc, and would rarely consult me when making significant decisions, especially those involving $$$. He just didn't `see' me, and was always very distant and unavailable emotionally.

I am now sharing my home with one of my sons - also with Scorpio Asc - who has no contact with his father for the past 7-8 years, but behaves very much like him.

I know that my father felt very threatened by women - both intellectually and sexually. His marriage to my mother only ever endured because she soon learned how to play the game by his `rules'. That was her method of surviving. He was only ever violent towards my brothers, whom he'd physically beat quite regularly, and then they would pass on this violence to me in the form of severe (and i mean severe) bullying, which was never ever properly addressed in my family of origin. Remarkably, my brothers have become fine, peaceful adults.

No crime in my father's line, although there were a lot of depressed and unfulfilled women scattered throughout the family tree.
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  #59  
Unread 01-03-2015, 08:47 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

One thing I meant to mention in my post above (but didn't wish the post to become too large) is to address the terms `violence' and `crime', as these have been mentioned in this thread in relation to harsh Sun-Pluto aspects.

Referring back to my post above, both my father and ex-husband never displayed any overt violence towards me themselves, but both used withholding the $$$ as a means to control me. I think it important to mention that any harsh aspect between Pluto and the Sun will have the native on the receiving end of CONTROL BY OTHERS, beginning with the parents (usually) Those who use violence against others are aiming to control them.

As for the crimes, whether something is a crime or not changes over time. In my own life (as a female) I have *felt* much of the behaviour of my father (and compliant-to-his-wishes mother) to be as a crime against my own right to live the life I have wanted to.

If you're talking about police and authority figures, my suggestion would be to check whether Saturn is harshly aspected also. For me, Sun-Pluto conjunct involves early attempts to control me, and to bring me into line with what the chief family `authority' figure wanted/needed.

Those with the Sun-Pluto conjunct will have opportunities for transformation throughout their lives. The struggles and difficulties experienced as Pluto forms harsh transits to the natal Sun - eg square or opposition - are massive opportunities for transformation from the inside out.

What I am saying is that I have learned to love my Pluto-Sun conjunction. Not everyone is born with such opportunity for growth and change.
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  #60  
Unread 01-03-2015, 09:45 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Flapjack,
May I ask you out of curiousity where is Neptune placed in your chart and what aspects does it make?
Your father a drunk and stepfather as well?
Sounds like the negative neptune symbolism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
I have Sun-Pluto square, though out of sign (Sun late Cancer, Pluto early Scorpio). Also have Moon-Pluto square and Merc-Pluto square (t-square)

-I have very strong Pluto synastry with my grandfather (father's father); Pluto square Pluto, his Pluto conjunct my Sun/Mercury. We don't have a very close relationship. He scares the **** outta me. He's a very stubborn and domineering man. Passive aggressive. A Scorpio Moon.

-My relationship with my dad is emotionally distant, but otherwise fairly good. On an intellectual level we get along great. It was a lot more strained when I was young and he was still drinking. His relationship with his father also seems distant. I can tell he feels left out of family matters; but I think the family doesn't think he shows enough interest and support.

-Both father and grandfather have alcohol problems. My dad's brother has a history of being suicidal. Their mother died when they were young. My grandfather remarried their grief counselor. Then she died a few years later (she was abusive towards my father; he says he used to hide in the closet after school until his father came home). After that woman died, my grandpa remarried again to a woman whose son and grandchildren died in a fire. My uncle's wife died a few years ago and my grandpa's sister died last year. Reunions tend to have this undercurrent of sadness. It seems all the men in my dad's family are cursed to lose the women in their lives.

-I am my father's only child, and his brother has none. Their sister is carrying on the family with two children and so, unless I keep my last name after getting married, our family name dies with me as the youngest member who still uses it.

-I had an drunk, violent criminal stepfather who started doing hard drugs just before my mother left him. Those were some terrible years.

I guess I'll say this: As far as paternal side of things go, I don't know what it means to really have a father or feel supported by a male. That kind of relationship has always been somewhat mythical, although I've had good mentoring relationships with some men, and I love my partner, but it's not really the same thing. With authorities, it's always felt it more of a relationship of equals in many ways, or an imbalance of power... if only because I've never had the illusion of authority figures being great and wise, but more often troubled, lost and even pitiful in the case of my stepfather.
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Unread 01-03-2015, 09:39 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Raven, it's great to see you back!!

Flapjacks wrote:

Quote:
As far as paternal side of things go, I don't know what it means to really have a father or feel supported by a male. That kind of relationship has always been somewhat mythical, although I've had good mentoring relationships with some men, and I love my partner, but it's not really the same thing. With authorities, it's always felt it more of a relationship of equals in many ways, or an imbalance of power... if only because I've never had the illusion of authority figures being great and wise, but more often troubled, lost and even pitiful in the case of my stepfather.
Sun square Pluto, in my book, is a really difficult natal aspect. It can make it difficult for the natives to develop trust; in part because Pluto rules people who seem inherently mistrustful. An authority figure like a father may be domineering, even bullying; and something about him is not completely on the level. Primarily, he looks out for #1, and not the interests of the child or subordinate, except insofar as the child/student/or employee can support his own interests.

This isn't to say that the Plutonian "other" is objectively untrustworthy, but that he will come across this way to the native--who will have some evidence to support her mistrust. The Plutonian male seems authoritarian, bullying, under-handed, unchangeable, and somehow secretive or under-worldly.

Natally I have Pluto and Saturn opposite sun. Both are wide, but their midpoint is right on my sun. (Note that each planetary pair has both a near and far midpoint.)

I've read several threads on sun-Pluto, and came across only one person with Pluto opposite sun who claimed a good and trusting relationship with his father. Most of these relationships were truly dysfunctional.

Our challenge is to own our own Pluto natures. I was raised to be a well-behaved, good little girl, so the raw, brutal energies associated with Pluto seemed horrifying to me. Strangely, after I left home, I had bosses and co-workers who fit Pluto's mold. Some of them were out to destroy my career, and I had evidence to prove it.

But modern astrology teaches that we either (a) own the positive side of our planets, (b) exhibit the negative traits of our planets, or (c) disown unwanted planets' energies. The archetypes typified by the disowned planets become Jungian "shadow material," split off from our sense of self and projected into other people. Then we wonder why (in this instance) we attract Plutonian people to us! It is because the horoscope will "out" in one way or another.

The cure is to acknowledge that we are all of the planets in our chart, and to work with those parts of us that are also Plutonian. Thankfully, sun-Pluto can be translated as our ongoing stand for self (sun) transformation (Pluto.) We need not become the bully or mean drunk ourselves, but we have to look at how "the way out is the way through."

People with trines, sextiles, and certain conjunctions of sun-Pluto seem to have a more functional relationship with Pluto. I've come across some, however, who are truly into dominating other people. It's just that it goes well for them! Sun quintile Pluto people seem to be driven by enormous ambition.

I highly recommend Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto.
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  #62  
Unread 01-03-2015, 09:53 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

On which house rules which parent:

Traditionally the 4th was associated with the father. It is the "house of home," but more in the sense of patrimony, from the days when property, inheritance, titles, and surnames passed through the male line. Sometimes the 4th meant both parents, but generally not just the mother.

It's a bit sexist, but the association with one's mother and the 10th is that the mother was construed as one's father's wife: the 7th house (of marriage) from the 4th.

Traditionally there wasn't a specific link between signs and houses by number: Cancer wasn't linked to the 4th house, for example. (See Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.)

When modern astrologers began equating signs and houses by number, they also saw an affilitation between the sign's ruling planet/s and the house (in contrast to planetary joys by house, which were different.) If the 4th house was linked to Cancer and the moon ruled Cancer and the moon meant one's mother.... we can see how the flip-flop occurred.

I think it's best to consider that either the 4th or the 10th could symbolize either parent. In my chart, I'm pretty clear that the 4th house is a better match with my mother, and my 10th house is a better match with my father, but I think each chart should be considered individually.

In modern astrology, the 4th house also indicates early childhood conditioning; so a stressed 4th house (or ruler/s of the 4th) can indicate a difficult childhood.

To some astrologers, the sun indicates the father in a day birth; and Saturn, in a night birth. Venus indicates the mother in a day birth; and the moon, in a night birth. But today we are more apt to assign one's own identity to the sun, not the sun to the father.
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  #63  
Unread 01-03-2015, 10:03 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

SunW

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Now it would be interesting to learn something about the Sun-Pluto aspects. I don't have it so I don't know how it works.

I want to ask those who have any major Sun-Pluto aspect, even if it is a positive aspect about its influence. I suppose the relationship with the father and with the father's family is very important and has a great influence on the native.

Probably the father or another person from the father's lineage has something to do with police, military, psychology, the secret service. Most probably, in the lineage of the father, there are events connected with murder, major crimes and other events where some crime or something else was the cause of death or great suffering for the relatives of the native.


SunW, the sun by Traditional astrology and Medieval sources is the father if above the horizon, called Diurnal, a day horoscope, and represents one's father. If the Sun is below the earth, Nocturnal, Saturn becomes the father in a horoscope. This applies no matter if you are judging a nativity or a horary.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~suewar...friendship.pdf

In the following document Saturn in the nocturnal chart and is recognized as representing the father.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html

Look under in the above document, 'Professions and types....', the last line in this section proclaims this concept of Saturn representing the Father in a Nocturnal horoscope.

However if the sun in a Diurnal or nocturnal chart is within 8.5 degrees it is called Combustion of the planet and this applies unless the moiety is less than 17 minutes in which case it becomes Cazimi that blesses the planet aspected, of which many Modern writers do not recognize.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/cazimi.php


ZadkielsGhost

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Unread 01-04-2015, 12:45 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Waybread

Quote:
Traditionally the 4th was associated with the father. It is the "house of home," but more in the sense of patrimony, from the days when property, inheritance, titles, and surnames passed through the male line. Sometimes the 4th meant both parents, but generally not just the mother.

It's a bit sexist, but the association with one's mother and the 10th is that the mother was construed as one's father's wife: the 7th house (of marriage) from the 4th.
Like many of us who diligently study astrology, I had the misfortune in this incarnation of studying the Moderns initially, unlike those born prior to 1700 who were just in the infancy stages of Modernism.

I too could Not see how the Moon ruling Cancer could be anything but the Mother of the 4th house and Saturn correlation with the 10th in it's identity with Capricorn, as contrary to Traditionalism and the Medieval teachings.

This is the problem in noting houses of parents:


http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/houses.php

http://vicdicara.wordpress.com/2010/...e-controversy/

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...hp/t-3452.html

And this is basically the Traditionalist and close to the Medieval consensus:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html

Note William Lilly, who according to Zadkiel in An Introduction of Astrology, and claims Lilly's Natal astrology is Not as great as his Horary adeptness. Lilly if you note in the skyscript document says under the Fourth house that it is our Father and the second skyscript document says the Tenth is our Mother.

It can not be both or is not our art and science a little shaky and no wonder many doubt astrology as there is so much disagreement upon something so simple from our elders?

Waybread

Quote:
Traditionally there wasn't a specific link between signs and houses by number: Cancer wasn't linked to the 4th house, for example. (See Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.)

When modern astrologers began equating signs and houses by number, they also saw an affilitation between the sign's ruling planet/s and the house (in contrast to planetary joys by house, which were different.) If the 4th house was linked to Cancer and the moon ruled Cancer and the moon meant one's mother.... we can see how the flip-flop occurred.
Exactly, or maybe the Modernes didn't study enough of the early data as it wasn't so readily available til the past couple of decades!

Waybread

Quote:
I think it's best to consider that either the 4th or the 10th could symbolize either parent. In my chart, I'm pretty clear that the 4th house is a better match with my mother, and my 10th house is a better match with my father, but I think each chart should be considered individually.


In all due respect, and I mean that sincerily, as every astrologer has made mistakes but one.

But if we as devout artists and celestial scientists take this attitude then we can equally say the 7th is our physical body, our early environment and personality as well. Then by this logic the 8th becomes our money as much as the 2nd, and inheritance or the goods of the other must be the 2nd also. And then following your above assessment our friends could be the 5th and our children the 11th.

Let's face it the Modrenes came after and didn't read enough pre-1700 lore nor much of the Ancients or how else could they have arrived at such an opinion?

And No, I'm only stating the long held controversy and being kind!

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Unread 01-04-2015, 05:26 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

ZG, no need to pull any punches with me! I can handle it. I really like modern western astrology. It has its excesses and problems, to be sure, but then the traditional historical authors displayed theirs, as well. We have to be connoisseurs of astrological writing, regardless of its period or "school."

I think it's OK to go by a different set of rules in horary than in natal chart interpretation. Houses rule all kinds of different things in horary (like missing items) that wouldn't make much sense in a personality analysis.

You wrote:
Quote:
But if we as devout artists and celestial scientists take this attitude then we can equally say the 7th is our physical body, our early environment and personality as well. Then by this logic the 8th becomes our money as much as the 2nd, and inheritance or the goods of the other must be the 2nd also. And then following your above assessment our friends could be the 5th and our children the 11th.
Gosh, are we "celestial scientists"? The scientists would disagree! But surely you are aware of the horary practice of using turned or derived houses. This is how Mom got into the 10th house, as the 7th (wife) of the 4th (father.) Nobody suggests that we simply invert the chart for no reason. Our 7th house isn't our physical body, though it might say something about the body of our spouse.

We see a bit more of derived (turned) houses in modern astrology, where the 8th became the house of financial proceeds from the marriage (2nd from the 7th,) and aunts and uncles get assigned to various houses depending upon whether they are the sibling (3rd) of the father or mother.

This thread focuses on sun-Pluto relationships, and the traditional astrologers of the past didn't have anything to say about them.
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Unread 01-05-2015, 03:37 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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This thread focuses on sun-Pluto relationships, and the traditional astrologers of the past didn't have anything to say about them.

Hmmm, yup! My astrologer told me 12 years ago when she peered at my ex wife's chart, "Run Rabbit Run, Sun square Pluto" lol....I am not joking either.....So, I wonder if they would have said the same thing back in the day?

No offense to any lovely beings here who have this aspect, but if I had only listened to her advice???????? I can only ponder what this day would hold.

Last edited by astralrabbit; 01-05-2015 at 03:40 AM.
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Unread 01-05-2015, 04:40 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Since Pluto was discovered in 1930, the old traditional western astrologers wouldn't even have known about it. Some trads use it today as an extra data point, but would focus on dignities and debilities in your ex's chart.

I think it has to be a difficult natal aspect: transiting Pluto square sun was an extremely difficult time in my life, with transiting Pluto square Mars as next-worst. The Pluto-sun transiting square has been described as "feeling stripped of your skin," which was certainly my experience of it.

The natives have my sympathies!
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Unread 01-05-2015, 04:58 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Since Pluto was discovered in 1930, the old traditional western astrologers wouldn't even have known about it. Some trads use it today as an extra data point, but would focus on dignities and debilities in your ex's chart.

I think it has to be a difficult natal aspect: transiting Pluto square sun was an extremely difficult time in my life, with transiting Pluto square Mars as next-worst. The Pluto-sun transiting square has been described as "feeling stripped of your skin," which was certainly my experience of it.

The natives have my sympathies!
Forgive my mischievousness....I can't say that my ex was or is a horrible person , and I can't say that I blame her current behavior on this one aspect, because that is just over simplifying something so intricate that deserves much greater contemplation employing further brevity. When my Astrologer told me this, I didn't listen anyway, because I loved her and cared about her and new that we all broken individuals who deserve love and patience. This is a very powerful aspect for certain...the sooner the native is made aware of how this may sub-consciously play out, the better. Either way; they will continue to encounter the reflections that this energy can culminate in its lower vibrational form until they are ready to truly surrender themselves to the understanding that we can not control anything with out consequence. The energy of Pluto will make certain of that.

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Unread 01-07-2015, 10:26 PM
ZadkielsGhost ZadkielsGhost is offline
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Waybread

Quote:
Traditionally the 4th was associated with the father. It is the "house of home," but more in the sense of patrimony, from the days when property, inheritance, titles, and surnames passed through the male line. Sometimes the 4th meant both parents, but generally not just the mother.

It's a bit sexist, but the association with one's mother and the 10th is that the mother was construed as one's father's wife: the 7th house (of marriage) from the 4th.

Traditionally there wasn't a specific link between signs and houses by number: Cancer wasn't linked to the 4th house, for example. (See Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.)

When modern astrologers began equating signs and houses by number, they also saw an affilitation between the sign's ruling planet/s and the house (in contrast to planetary joys by house, which were different.) If the 4th house was linked to Cancer and the moon ruled Cancer and the moon meant one's mother.... we can see how the flip-flop occurred.

I think it's best to consider that either the 4th or the 10th could symbolize either parent. In my chart, I'm pretty clear that the 4th house is a better match with my mother, and my 10th house is a better match with my father, but I think each chart should be considered individually.


As I note the Biblical verse you list at the end of your posts I can only conclude you are a practicing Christian as you list a writing that is supposedly written by Paul who was called Saul before his transformation from the Damascus Road blinding.

So sister in Christ, I must ask if I remember correctly that in your many posts I believe you said you were an Aquarius Sun and a Aqu Mid-Heaven. If I am confused on this forgive me as I like to be precise.

See Waybread, we all have our 'Sacred Lies', things we say in youth that we fully believe we will do. Like promises made at the altar in marriage and the two could not keep the vow as they could not see the events to come nor did they consult an horary artist upon their choice. Or a goal an athlete promises they shall accomplish but then the heavens deal out a tragedy like a severe auto accident; yet the dedicated athlete believed they would do what has been squelched.

The consensus here is that the Sun is always the father, yet I have stated in a diurnal horoscope, the Sun is above the horizon, it is the father. However if the Sun is below the earth Saturn represents the father.

And No, I'm not getting off the subject as the concept here that is being argued is the Sun is always the father when by past sources it is not.

Waybread, please do not be embarrassed by not knowing this fact of past writers, for this child learns continually how much he does Not know.

But if the sun in your nativity is in your natal 10th, or cjt you MC, then this contradicts the concept of the fourth being the father as well as gives your mother a Leo-like or sun traits; dominance and dramatic as well as executive ability. Now Lilly in CA, which he deals with horary, nativity, and much more in his document, he borrowed from others the 'five degree rule'. So if your sun happened to be in the 9th by five degrees and separating from the MC is it not felt on your Midheaven? And since the Sun's moiety is so wide even nine degrees separation still is in evidence as Sun cjt MC.

For example, and I'm not running off the road with this. If the Moon were cjt the IC, the Moon ruling one's mother, we would have a situation where the father, the fourth would be nurturing and so emotional providing the sign and aspects fit that way. And dear mother would take on more domestic qualities due the Moon being in the 4th.

I purposely waited till the greater benefic was being conjuncted by the Moon as is presently going down despite the waning Moon which is so dismal for planting much.

If I am incorrect or confused here about you MC position forgive me and I stand to be corrected.

This is why the Sun even if cjt Pluto, if under the earth does not hold the same strength as Saturn does in a nocturnal horoscope.


ZadkielsGhost

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Unread 01-08-2015, 03:09 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

Zadkiel's Ghost--

I am not a Christian. I was never baptised, born into a secular post-Christian family. I concerted to Judaism in my 20s, but have been inactive in it for the past 20 years. However, I have studied Judaism and Christianity, I've read the NT through several times, and find those verses to be meaningful.

I have a 5th house sun, Mercury, and Venus in Aquarius, with Uranus in Gemini conjunct my MC, and Mercury and Uranus in mutual reception.

My Pluto and moon are in Leo in the 11th house (Placidus.) As a baby-boomer, all kinds of Aquarians, Scorpios, and Taureans were born with the sun at a hard angle to Pluto in Leo. I think this has a lot to do with the rebellion of the so-called Woodstock generation. Some of the lucky ones had Saturn in Leo or early Virgo in the mix, as well.

I have also studied some traditional western astrology, so I'm aware of how the father symbolism changes from the sun to Saturn in a night chart! However, the 4th house has ruled fathers in the sense of one's patrimony since the days of Hellenistic astrology (a particular interest of mine.) Also, I practice modern western astrology, in which the rules are somewhat different, and more apt to be based on experience than on a priori rules.

I also study western mythology. Interestingly, Dis Pater (Pater=father) was the earlier Roman name for the god Pluto. In some Hellenistic texts, the 4th house is simply called the house "under the earth."

For people with sun-Pluto oppositions, regardless of whether the sun is above or below the horizon, there seems usually to be a dysfunctional relationship with the father, based on several threads of this nature that I've followed over the past 7 years.

I won't comment on your delineation, as my sun is nowhere near my MC.
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Unread 01-08-2015, 05:56 AM
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Raven, it's great to see you back!!

Flapjacks wrote:



Sun square Pluto, in my book, is a really difficult natal aspect. It can make it difficult for the natives to develop trust; in part because Pluto rules people who seem inherently mistrustful. An authority figure like a father may be domineering, even bullying; and something about him is not completely on the level. Primarily, he looks out for #1, and not the interests of the child or subordinate, except insofar as the child/student/or employee can support his own interests.

This isn't to say that the Plutonian "other" is objectively untrustworthy, but that he will come across this way to the native--who will have some evidence to support her mistrust. The Plutonian male seems authoritarian, bullying, under-handed, unchangeable, and somehow secretive or under-worldly.

Natally I have Pluto and Saturn opposite sun. Both are wide, but their midpoint is right on my sun. (Note that each planetary pair has both a near and far midpoint.)

I've read several threads on sun-Pluto, and came across only one person with Pluto opposite sun who claimed a good and trusting relationship with his father. Most of these relationships were truly dysfunctional.

Our challenge is to own our own Pluto natures. I was raised to be a well-behaved, good little girl, so the raw, brutal energies associated with Pluto seemed horrifying to me. Strangely, after I left home, I had bosses and co-workers who fit Pluto's mold. Some of them were out to destroy my career, and I had evidence to prove it.

But modern astrology teaches that we either (a) own the positive side of our planets, (b) exhibit the negative traits of our planets, or (c) disown unwanted planets' energies. The archetypes typified by the disowned planets become Jungian "shadow material," split off from our sense of self and projected into other people. Then we wonder why (in this instance) we attract Plutonian people to us! It is because the horoscope will "out" in one way or another.

The cure is to acknowledge that we are all of the planets in our chart, and to work with those parts of us that are also Plutonian. Thankfully, sun-Pluto can be translated as our ongoing stand for self (sun) transformation (Pluto.) We need not become the bully or mean drunk ourselves, but we have to look at how "the way out is the way through."

People with trines, sextiles, and certain conjunctions of sun-Pluto seem to have a more functional relationship with Pluto. I've come across some, however, who are truly into dominating other people. It's just that it goes well for them! Sun quintile Pluto people seem to be driven by enormous ambition.

I highly recommend Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto.
I have Sun quintile Pluto but don't know much about it. Do you know where I can find information regarding this aspect? It is true that I am very ambitious (username).
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Unread 01-08-2015, 08:48 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

The quintile is often described as the "creative" aspect, but I think it also confers a lot of ambition to manifest that creativity in some way. When the sun is involved, the person's creative energy may focus on making something (quintile) of himself (sun.) Pluto carries a kind of ruthless, power dynamic with it, so I think the amibition side of the quintile is strengthened here.

I once read a chart for someone with Pluto quintile sun in the second house, and he confessed to being obsessed (Pluto) with becoming one of the richest (second house) people in the world.
If you google "quintile astrology" you will find a lot of articles but I like the treatment in this book: Harding and Harvey, Working With Astrology. It is in a section on the 5th harmonic.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 02:13 AM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect



I follow the blog online of a woman with a Libra Sun conjunct Pluto. I do not know her birth time, ascendant unknown.

She is very unusual, exceptionally intelligent and very outspoken in her "unusual" field as a champion for women's rights. She happens to be an "elite" escort, charging a ton of money and has been featured in a National Geographic documentary. She is very beautiful, runs everyday for fitness and hosts a blog with followers like me.

I don't know the story with her father, however she never mentions him so I assume somehow he is deceased. She alluded to a "horrible" incident with guns and refuses to be anywhere near one knowingly. I cannot help but surmise her father was killed by a bullet, but I am just guessing. Her mother is alive as well the rest of her family. She is single with no children.

She has written a graphic account of a dangerous client who controlled crashed his airplane while she was in it, she has suffered a severe traumatic brain injury as a result. She then tried to sue the client, a lawyer with shady connections to the underworld. She never got anywhere with her case and claims to now have her and her family's life threatened when she refused to stop posting about the whole scenario.

Come to think of it, she has complained a couple of times to being threatened by other men who have seriously hurt other escorts she knows. One of the men was a well known CEO and he eventually went to trial after too many women pressed abuse charges against him. She has made a point of refusing to keep quiet and has protested online, and has had many threats made against her to stop.

To me, she has all the makings of a Sun Pluto conjunction ( 7 and 9 degrees each). She also publishes her own books and is about the most well read person I have ever noticed. But, again that conjunction makes for her being an unknown person unless one follows her subject matter. Famous in that world and still considered a criminal by society. I, for one am one of her many followers and have nothing bad to say about her at all. Her life just reads like a conflict of power, control and dangerous threats when she ruffles too many feathers.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 01:38 PM
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

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Originally Posted by Carolus Optimus View Post
Exact Sun-Pluto square reporting in!

This aspect has got my interest lately. It has generally an unpleasant effect in a variety of areas, the relationship with the father being one of them.

My Pluto is in Libra and I think it is badly placed in this Sign. This makes the experience worse.

I despised my father. He was a domineering, violent drunkard and I, even as a child didn't understand what my wonderful, caring, intelligent and educated mother was doing in such a relationship. I was just sixteen when one day I witnessed my father, in his usual fits of anger was about to hit my mother. I prevented it by beating him to a pulp. It was a quite brutal showdown that I had been expecting for some time and I prepared for it. He was rushed to hospital afterwards.

I told my mother she is divorced now and I am the one-man divorce court. The man won't live with her again. I collected his items, threw everything out of the house and I ordered the installation of a new door lock.

After my father recuperated he attacked me twice to take revenge on me and to get back to our family. On both occasions I beat him severely. At last he understood the situation and disappeared from our life, completely ruined.
Can you post your chart with birth data and your dad's? . This story is such a dramatic example I would like to do synastry and composite for them.
Thanks, but I understand if you don't want to.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 02:29 PM
thelivingsky thelivingsky is offline
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Re: Sun-Pluto aspect

It can not be both or is not our art and science a little shaky and no wonder many doubt astrology as there is so much disagreement upon something so simple from our elders?

Hello Waybread,

I looked at the links you provided regarding the dispute about 4th/10th mother/father confusion and they did not resolve anyhting for me. Your concren that when we say that both of these houses are or can be either parent invalidates astrology, in my mind it does no such thing . It simply posits that astrology is both a science and an art where nuance and complexity is inherent, an any attempt at advancing the discipline must be open to reinterpreting older teachings. Every science reinterprets/redesigns older paradigms - we no longer teach that the Earth is the center of the solar system, we now use asteroids in interpretaion etc. It isn't that the older teachings were "wrong" but they were limited by what they could observe scientifically and what they could sense intuitively. Clearly our scientific knowledge has improved and expanded. Can I posit that intuitive abilities may be better than they were centuries ago? At first look this seems unlikely, even silly. But intuitive abilities are informed by what is in the conscious awareness as well as that which is not. I believe that as a species we are evolving. and thus it is that likely our abilities in all ares are improving (for many anyhow).

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