Is Pluto misunderstood?

[Lykanized]

You're fine. Just very serious which comes off more Saturn than anything

[conspiracy theorist]

Oh I know. I was poking fun but thanks for bursting my bubble before he could respond. You **** cockblocker.

[Witchyone]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

yeah I have that sextile too. Probably not too significant tho. I think Pluto's a significant planet for me because of how many planets it touches alone

I don't consider myself Plutonian. I have some qualities, good and bad, that you might say are in that category, but I feel more connected to other planets. Anyway, my chart seems to match the type of chart he described, so I was wondering if I could learn what kind of behaviors he sees associated with it. I'm assuming he doesn't think all of us are evil sorcerers.

[Lykanized]

I'm not Plutonian either, just boring. I find the theory most Plutonian people lack Scorpio placements intriguing tho

[Witchyone]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

I'm not Plutonian either, just boring. I find the theory most Plutonian people lack Scorpio placements intriguing tho

I think he meant those that are Plutonian in a negative way, because those with a lot of Scorpio can handle it. I'm not sure, just curious.

I don't know if your chart is Plutonian, but if I had to associate your vibe with a planet it would probably be moon first, then Pluto.

[BaoSanniang]

Originally Posted by Witchyone

I have the type of chart you're describing, I think (Gem sun, no Scorpio placements other than Dsc., Pluto making aspects to moon, Mars, and others, and it's in the 5th house.) What is wrong with us in your view?

LOL

LOL it also depends on your other placements. I also believe it depends on your specific life circumstances, like say if you had a good upbringing then perhaps you're more in control and more well-adjusted. However, even then, I'd imagine you to be quite intense in some ways lol.

I still believe that in the end we have free will to make our own decisions for the better or for worse. The fact that you're aware of this and learning about it is a good sign, I'm sure there are many people who are quite, or very Plutonic, but are not aware or enlightened enough to begin to know that part about themselves. Therefore, they bring suffering to themselves and to others.

I also humbly admit I am biased in my opinion due to well, some Plutonic and very immature / unbalanced people I've had to deal with in my life, including my own mom whom by the way is also an "Air Plutonian" with sun in Aquarius.

[BaoSanniang]

Originally Posted by Witchyone

I think he meant those that are Plutonian in a negative way, because those with a lot of Scorpio can handle it. I'm not sure, just curious.

I don't know if your chart is Plutonian, but if I had to associate your vibe with a planet it would probably be moon first, then Pluto.

I was not saying that most people who are Plutonian lack Scorpio placements, I was saying that the most outwardly and negatively Plutonian people I've encountered in my life happened to not be Scorpios.

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by BaoSanniang

I am of the opinion that Pluto is a malefic planet, and that unless you are a Scorpio sun / strongly Scorpio it is best not to have Pluto involved with any of your natal planets or with the Ascendant. Pluto is a potentially destructive force like Mars, except that it touches on even deeper, darker, and more subtle themes in life than the combative energy of Mars. Pluto is also about secrets, about power struggles, manipulation, and spiritual death / regeneration. Not many people can harness Pluto energy, so I believe for the majority of people it's such a force to reckoned with to the point that again, unless you are Scorpio / have several Scorpio placements in your natal planets, it's best for Pluto to not get involved because I feel like only Scorpio and / or a strong Scorpio presence can stand a better chance at channeling and harnessing Pluto. I like to think of it this way. If Mars is an aggressive and bloodthirsty military commander who sends his army on punitive campaigns to conquer land, Pluto is a plotting and scheming strategist who conceals his motives well but is absolutely totalitarian and capable of doing just about anything to reach his goals, yet he's much more mysterious and concealed than his Caesar / Alexandrian counterpart. Mars conquers, but Pluto's also capable of playing the political game.

None of the most Plutonic people I've come across in my life so far have been Scorpios. I believe it's because Scorpios integrate this energy into their soul due to them being the sign that Pluto rules. In my opinion it's more of a problem when Pluto's involved with other signs, especially when it's involved with "sunnier" signs like the air and fire signs. I feel like if Pluto's involved with a natal planet in an air or fire sign, it causes complications regardless of whether it's a flowing or a challenging aspect because "yang" energy and extreme "yin" energy are fundamentally incompatible and extremely difficult to balance.

I'm a much happier person being someone with a chart that doesn't have the outer trio involved with any of my natal planets. My life and my inner world's much simpler and straightforward and I feel like I don't want / need that much. Sometimes I do imagine what my life would be like if it were darker and more complex, but then I have Jupiter in I so it's not like I even obsess / brood over things that much.

Pluto people / Plutonic people, unless they have strong Scorpio in their natal planets to manage it, are like a frightening enigma to me. It's like I can't really understand so much of what happens in the deep, dark, raging waters of their hearts and minds. And it's not like they'll always leave you alone. They feel this urge to destroy, to change, to impose a dark will on you. It's like their level of depth is on another wavelength, one I'd rather not tap into. I almost feel as if very Plutonic people can truly get along only with each other. I can totally see Plutonic people being wizards and sorcerers who practice the dark arts in a fantasy world. In our world they're the people who play mind games and engage in power struggles almost for the sake of defining themselves as someone important and noteworthy. They live on the razor's edge.

I'd totally put a Plutonic person, especially if he has Mars-Pluto, in the vanguard against an enemy force. These people may very well charge straight into the thrill of the fight and take heads. They'd be my shock troopers to inflict chaos in the enemy ranks. Of course we still have to look for other aspects to see if it softens the person, but..... I just feel that overall Pluto's such a powerfully destructive planet.

Haha you say its better not to have Pluto connections as if it's a choice. That sounds silly you know.

And I beg the differ. I have only Venus and NN in Scorpio also Pluto in 29 Scorpio conjunct Jupiter both squaring Mars and Saturn. I'm a pretty happy person. Yes I have challenging moments that push me to grow and sometimes it's really hard but that's life. And that helped me become who I am after all. It's all about harnessing the potential.

The only thing Pluto has destroyed is anger issues and self destructive habits haha so I dont see the problem. People fear Pluto cos people fear change and the unknown in general. Master that and you will master your life.

[Lykanized]

Actually, it sounds like you'd be an exception to what he's saying since you are Scorpionic

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

Actually, it sounds like you'd be an exception to what he's saying since you are Scorpionic

Why? Only cos of the Venus in Scorpio ? I doubt one planet is enough. I'm obviously not handling it that well since im single haha.

Even people who don't have Scorpio placements should do well with the energy. I mean my point is it all comes down to awareness and a choice. I just dont like how he put it basically "it's best to avoid Pluto aspects when getting born" xD

[Lykanized]

Originally Posted by ardentika

Why? Only cos of the Venus in Scorpio ? I doubt one planet is enough. I'm obviously not handling it that well since im single haha.

Even people who don't have Scorpio placements should do well with the energy. I mean my point is it all comes down to awareness and a choice. I just dont like how he put it basically "it's best to avoid Pluto aspects when getting born" xD

I'd say with Venus and NN in Scorpio you're rather Scorpionic, although I suppose it'd also depends on what your Venus and NN are doing. Nothing wrong with being single tho. More time for yourself


Grimly he may have meant avoid people who have them

[Lykanized]

There is a point at which I have to disagree with Scorpionic individuals/Scorp suns being less likely to exhibit negative characteristics of Pluto's energy especially considering they're ruled by Mars too. I've had some horrible experiences with Scorpios who have a tendency to project their feelings of powerlessness in more than destructive ways, abusive ways. That or they project it by not allowing anyone or anything to have any amount of power over them which means suppression and not owning up to truths, getting defensive very easily. But of course every sign has its darkside and path of integration

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

I'd say with Venus and NN in Scorpio you're rather Scorpionic, although I suppose it'd also depends on what your Venus and NN are doing. Nothing wrong with being single tho. More time for yourself


Grimly he may have meant avoid people who have them

Haha I know I was joking only cos Venus IN Scorpio has a bad rep in love terms.
And the Scorpio combo does nothingbut square my leo moon. Yuk.

If that's what he meant to avoid such people that's... Sad. That is sign-cism. It's not much different from saying avoid certain race cos they are prone to this and that and they had no saying in the choice of their race haha. You would think astrology should help you understand everyone but discrimination always finds a way to sneak in.

[Lykanized]

Originally Posted by ardentika

Haha I know I was joking only cos Venus IN Scorpio has a bad rep in love terms.
And the Scorpio combo does nothingbut square my leo moon. Yuk.

If that's what he meant to avoid such people that's... Sad. That is sign-cism. It's not much different from saying avoid certain race cos they are prone to this and that and they had no saying in the choice of their race haha. You would think astrology should help you understand everyone but discrimination always finds a way to sneak in.

Yeah, I agree. It's the same as with any other planet or sign. If the individual lacks self awareness, the effects will be felt. Not only with Pluto or with Scorpio. I think it might be that Pluto's a masculine planet. When something's awry, it's more likely to be felt outwardly which shouldn't mean it's inherently more destructive potentially than other planets. Mars was mentioned too which is of course another masculine planet

[ardentika]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

Yeah, I agree. It's the same as with any other planet or sign. If the individual lacks self awareness, the effects will be felt. Not only with Pluto or with Scorpio. I think it might be that Pluto's a masculine planet. When something's awry, it's more likely to be felt outwardly which shouldn't mean it's inherently more destructive potentially than other planets. Mars was mentioned too which is of course another masculine planet

That makes sense. Masculine energy likes to externalized while feminine internalizes. Maybe that's why Pluto is considered higher octave of Mars. Mars is pretty destructive too cos its so charged. But I'm always left with the impression Pluto destroys more on emotional/soul level. In the end what lies in the subconscious as a blockage will be brought to light for awareness. I believe that's what pluto stands for. And not all people are meant to have this experience in this lifetime.

[Lykanized]

Originally Posted by ardentika

That makes sense. Masculine energy likes to externalized while feminine internalizes. Maybe that's why Pluto is considered higher octave of Mars. Mars is pretty destructive too cos its so charged. But I'm always left with the impression Pluto destroys more on emotional/soul level. In the end what lies in the subconscious as a blockage will be brought to light for awareness. I believe that's what pluto stands for. And not all people are meant to have this experience in this lifetime.

Actually, everyone goes through that process of having subconscious blockages brought to light. Going through a process of digging through our darkness because what's there has power over us as long as we don't face it and own our darkness. That's just the trial of life. Pluto symbolizes that process, but we all have Pluto's presence in us somehow

Before I knew a thing about astrology, I was very passionate about transformation myself, facing my darkness, my truths hidden in my consciousness, learning from it so as to reclaim my power. I was also very much aligned with the 'Phoenix rising from the ashes' motif. I was very heavily involved with Plutonian themes like destruction, death, going as deep as possible, to the core, the raw core no matter how much it hurt, pain, my shadow. And I've always been very obsessive as well, especially with these concepts

But I also had Plutonian issues of control and projecting my feelings of powerlessness onto others

In all honesty, I'm very Plutonian energetically, yet I'm not sure I'd be considered Plutonian astrologically. So I do think we all are meant to go through this process. That's what growth is all about, we're not meant for stagnation. We're all meant to dig through the meat, the rotting flesh of us and bring it back to life. We're all meant to experience many little deaths and destructions so as to recreate ourselves

I do believe that's what Pluto's about. That's why people who don't do the work are likely to project their feelings of powerlessness out into the world

Before I knew anything about astrology or Pluto, I was very very passionate and aligned with Plutonian energy. But I still don't know if my chart would reflect that Plutonianism. So I'm definitely convinced we're all meant to go through that process

People have even thought I must be a Scorpio rising before. And I've been noted as having Plutonian energy, but I'm not sure if people would actually consider me Plutonian looking at my chart

So I wonder why I'd be so heavily Plutonian if it's not reflected in my tropical chart nor my sidereal chart. Actually, in sidereal, I'm a Scorpio NN, but I still don't think that accounts for how heavily Plutonian I am energetically. It just raises many questions and I truly do believe we're meant to all go through this process of delving into the deepest aspects ourselves, destroying what isn't ours and isn't real and carrying with us what is real, finding our power in the destruction, our light in the darkness

I think this is an important discussion... Perhaps we're all meant to explore the themes of every planet regardless of their presence in our charts. And Pluto is such a vital, very very human planet symbolically


This discussion is getting meaty and real, I love it
I truly believe we must all go through

[Lykanized]

I only just came to this realization. I've been wondering why I'm so Plutonian yet it's not reflected in my chart...

It's highly possible that we're all meant to experience the journeys represented by each planet, but various life circumstances can trigger different planets to become more prominent at various points in life

For instance, I went through a lot of trauma growing up and I was forced to delve into my darkness and use it to find my power because of that

[Lykanized]

Is Pluto misunderstood? Perhaps so. It's considered a malefic, but what if the malefics are just some of the most crucial energies to our development? They're just more likely than other planets, potentially, to become outwardly destructive because they represent such intense processes

Might Pluto be associated with love? Perhaps so. Once we start digging into our subconscious, we feel powerless to all this energy within us. How we handle it is part of our Plutonian journey. If we're caught up in feelings of powerlessness and trying to find our power, we may not be able to purely love others until we work through these issues. Yet once we do, love may be much more pure and truly intimate as others are no longer a threat to our power

My Scorpio super stellium sister has recently come to many realizations about love and embraced it, as an example. SHe's EXTREMELY scorpionic and as a matter of fact, she has an Aries moon so she's very Martian as well. Yet her journey has led her to embracing love. And no just ordinary love, but this piercing, allencompassing love that strokes through all of humanity. She now preaches to 'look for the love' and she believes that what everyone does is ultimately about love and seeking it

[Lykanized]

I apologize for rambling, but I hope I've actually added something to this discussion about Pluto

I've come to a thought that perhaps it's vital for all of us to explore our Plutonian natures, even if our charts don't reflect heavy Plutonic energy. I believe if someone's chart does reflect much Plutonian energy via aspects, particularly hard ones but easy ones as well, it just directs those energies toward specific facets. Yet we all obviously have Pluto in us

For me having it in the 3rd house, the grand majority of my Plutonic journey has been mental as well as verbal


and perhaps the end result is about love. Pluto typically associated with power struggles, but maybe through these power struggles either with others or within our own selves, we're searching for what would allow us to be vulnerable without fear of being taken advantage of or overpowered, and thus searching for the love. The purest love


And I'm gonna thank my beautiful, super Scorpionic sister for influencing this theory. I hope it actually resonates with some others

[Lykanized]

For reference, and I do have permission from her to post it, my sister's chart


I'd say she's very Plutonic and of course no one can doubt her being Scorpionic. She's dealt with much darkness as well, but as she's developed, she's come to discover love and that's what she preaches now. I do believe it's possible that at the end of Pluto's power struggles and delving so shamelessly into the depths of self and consciousness, death, the esoteric, the unknown(aka, what makes us feel powerless because we don't understand it), Pluto may actually be about love. Love requires vulnerability and that may be the ascended state of Pluto...vulnerability

[Lykanized]

Thank you OP for opening this up. Does Pluto rule death? Perhaps it rules our grapplings with the unknown, what we perceive as beyond us and thus more powerful than we are solely because we don't understand it. But through the harsh journey of coming to terms with death and what it means, we come to understand life. If we follow the path as painful as it may be, we ultimately reach a point where we no longer feel powerless and so we can approach life as vulnerable creatures without defense, without mental, spiritual, emotional, or even physical weapons because we no longer need to. Strength in vulnerability. And in this state where we feel no need to project any latent feelings of powerlessness upon others, and in this state where we no longer perceive possible threats ready to overpower us at any moment, we arise like the Phoenix with all that is not us destroyed, dusted, ashed, and what we are is our core selves. Our core, true, raw selves are able to give and receive true love, not love laced with the shards of these power struggles


So perhaps Pluto is about love, or more accurately, vulnerability which allows love to flow purely

[Witchyone]

Originally Posted by BaoSanniang

LOL it also depends on your other placements. I also believe it depends on your specific life circumstances, like say if you had a good upbringing then perhaps you're more in control and more well-adjusted. However, even then, I'd imagine you to be quite intense in some ways lol.

I still believe that in the end we have free will to make our own decisions for the better or for worse. The fact that you're aware of this and learning about it is a good sign, I'm sure there are many people who are quite, or very Plutonic, but are not aware or enlightened enough to begin to know that part about themselves. Therefore, they bring suffering to themselves and to others.

I also humbly admit I am biased in my opinion due to well, some Plutonic and very immature / unbalanced people I've had to deal with in my life, including my own mom whom by the way is also an "Air Plutonian" with sun in Aquarius.

Yeah, I can be intense. And obsessive. And jealous. I can be a real jerk. I've always said that, but it wasn't until recently that I realized how much damage I'm capable of doing while just trying to "stand up for" myself. It's something I've been attending to. I think in my case, Mars is more in the mix on this than Pluto, but maybe it's a combo.

You may be biased but I'm still curious what you see. I've been in an easy-going mood state for a while now, not taking much personally, so it's a perfect time for self-examination.

My hard aspects are Pluto sq. Saturn, Pluto sq. Mercury, and Pluto inconjunct Moon.

[BlackLioness87]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

I only just came to this realization. I've been wondering why I'm so Plutonian yet it's not reflected in my chart...

It's highly possible that we're all meant to experience the journeys represented by each planet, but various life circumstances can trigger different planets to become more prominent at various points in life

For instance, I went through a lot of trauma growing up and I was forced to delve into my darkness and use it to find my power because of that

https://www.horoscopeyourself.com/personal-horoscope/

Dominant Planet Calculator (it takes into account minor aspects and other stuff), I think the calculation formula is very accurate. Astro gives Pluto as my dominant planet and Sun is second in the hierarchy. According to horoscopeyourself Uranus is the most aspected (dominant) planet and Pluto is in second place.

I agree in some way with Bao, I also know people with Pluto in hard aspect with their personal planets (especially Sun, Moon and Mars) and they have many of the traits Bao has identified. BUT when looking at their dominant planets Pluto wasn't that prominent. It seems only heavy Plutonic/8H/Scorpionic people can master Pluto energy successfully, maybe it's just that real Plutonic people can do this faster than the average.

[Lykanized]

Originally Posted by BlackLioness87

https://www.horoscopeyourself.com/personal-horoscope/

Dominant Planet Calculator (it takes into account minor aspects and other stuff), I think the calculation formula is very accurate. Astro gives Pluto as my dominant planet and Sun is second in the hierarchy. According to horoscopeyourself Uranus is the most aspected (dominant) planet and Pluto is in second place.

I agree in some way with Bao, I also know people with Pluto in hard aspect with their personal planets (especially Sun, Moon and Mars) and they have many of the traits Bao has identified. BUT when looking at their dominant planets Pluto wasn't that prominent. It seems only heavy Plutonic/8H/Scorpionic people can master Pluto energy successfully, maybe it's just that real Plutonic people can do this faster than the average.

I feel like it isn't quite accurate
granted there are many means to calculating dominant planets

[BlackLioness87]

Originally Posted by Lykanized

I feel like it isn't quite accurate
granted there are many means to calculating dominant planets

Could be that the dominant planet is a dynamic thing and the hierarchy changes according to transits, progressions or "consciousness level"?

In my case I have Chiron in 10H conjunct my MC, and I currently feel very Chironic (I've been struggling with some heavy Chiron transits the last years), but it seems Chiron is not included in any dominant planet calculations :/

Anyways IMO, most aspected planets (whether or not they're dominant according to some formula) carry important meaning though sometimes it's difficult to figure this out.