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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #51  
Unread 12-03-2014, 02:35 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
I agree that the extreme vast majority of psychological astrologers might be misleading people who think that they are getting something that they are not. Certainly those who have Noel Tyl's psychological program are completely unprepared for dealing with issues of a real psychological nature, thought the bearers of his course certificate often think the are. This view on my part was one of the major precipitants in the falling out between Noel and me.

However in my case, I didn't mix my astrological practice with my psychological practice. I never ever used astrology(not even once) with clients who came to me for psychological services. And as a counseling astrologer, I was quite aware of when the individual's needs were beyond an astrologer. In this case my title was(and still is) Existential Counseling Astrologer, which from a purely psychological point of view is more commonly called a "Life Coach". The purpose here is to help break through blocks in life process, not deal with various other emotional and mental problems associated with the psychological practice. Although, even in this case I refuse to do charts, and do long term analyses, as I have done and continue to do here with various OP's.

And when I was in my Existential Counseling Astrologer role, and needed to refer to a psychological counselor, I never ever ever self referred. That would have been extremely unethical.
Gratifying as it sometimes is to have people agree with me, in this instance you're agreeing with an opinion I didn't express. In the first three sentences you quoted I was summarizing "the thrust of this discussion." I then continued, "In the first place the person who chooses to consult with a psychological astrologer does so because of the word astrology in the title, because he believes in it and its efficacy. That belief might be mistaken but he's not being misled." [emphasis added] In short, the exact opposite of what you were supposedly agreeing with. If, however, in your psychological counseling practice you don't resort to astrology, for instance for diagnostic purposes, then I was mistaken in thinking you were using astrology without your clients being cognizant of that fact and also mistaken in my tentative conclusion that you were therefore misleading your clients. Just to be absolutely clear, though, neither in my opinion is the person who calls himself a psychological astrologer. I find it hard to imagine anyone so dimwitted as not to realize that a psychological astrologer is an astrologer, not an academic psychologist. The latter calls himself a psychological astrologer, not just "a psychologist," precisely because he's not trying to mislead the client, who is after all almost certainly looking for an astrological consultation, not a consultation with an academic psychologist.

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  #52  
Unread 12-03-2014, 04:34 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therese View Post
I don't think that it is proven that mental health problems have physical/biochemical causes, what we know is that mental health issues and physical problems and/or biochemical imbalances go hand in hand. It's a very intricate topic, and the "anatomy" of "research" itself is just as complex.

PTSD is particularly interesting because

"Specifically, PTSD differs from other neuropsychiatric disorders in that it is the only chronic mental disorder in which the experience of an environmentally induced event (i.e., the trauma) is critical to its diagnosis and development. That the development of PTSD is not genetically or biologically inevitable allows examination of the biological consequences of a psychological phenomenon." /In: J. Vasterling and C. Brewin (2005) Neuropsychology of PTSD: Biological, Cognitive, and Clinical Perspectives , pp.x/
Possibly we misunderstand one another. The brains of advanced Alzheimer's patients look different than the brains of neuro-normal people. What about drug-related chemical dependencies or addictions?

Spock, I don't know how much education in psychological counseling Liz Greene and her colleagues undertook, but you are probably familiar with this institution:

http://www.cpalondon.com/

If those staff members have any serious credentials in psychology, I couldn't see it.
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  #53  
Unread 12-03-2014, 04:58 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Exactly. Liz Greene has a recent (2010) Ph. D. now from an accredited British university (Bristol)-- but it isn't in psychology. It's in history. Her 1971 "Ph. D." was from a small diploma mill that no longer exists.
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Last edited by waybread; 12-03-2014 at 05:04 AM.
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  #54  
Unread 12-03-2014, 09:04 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

Spock, and therein lies our disagreement. If I am interpreting you correctly, it seems like you believe that astrology has no inherent power to assist people. An astrological theorist does not seem the same or even vaguely similar to an astrologer or astrological practitioner. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to dismiss you or your claims, I think many of them are valid, I just don't agree with them and that disagreement will make it difficult for the discussion to continue.

That being said, I'm curious as to what purpose you think there is in astrology if it doesn't have practical application? Feel free to ignore this question, you certaily don't have to share this information with me if you don't want to.



Yes, I agree with this to an extent and especially agree with a point you made later about psychological astrologers essentially imposing psychology on astrology. My only concern is that you mention the ability to discuss or prove astrology empirically and repeatably. You mention it, but sort of just shrug your shoulders and wish silently "one day...". Do you honestly think there will ever be a day wherein astrological correspondences will be able to be demonstrated empirically like that?

It seems impossible to separate one astrological influence from the next, and it's clear (in my interpretation of history, undoubtedly everyone has their own. ) that the reason why the modern world has seen so many different techniques to supposedly "explain" what is going on within any context is a complete ignorance of existing technique. I just have a hard time believing that astrology is going to be able to be at all scientifically recognized since each part is so interconnected with the next.

So, there's our divide. You strive for astrology to be academically recognized. I honestly couldn't care less. Anecdotal evidence is good enough for me.

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  #55  
Unread 12-03-2014, 09:18 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

When the OP asked
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroNous View Post

I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology.
How did it come to be?
What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

although the OP has not provided their own personal definition of 'a psychological astrologer'
the thread is posted in RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT subforum
obviously, some basic research into
and then clarification regarding the meaning of the title, 'a psychological astrologer'
is a required part of the thread discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post

Gratifying as it sometimes is to have people agree with me, in this instance you're agreeing with an opinion I didn't express.

In the first three sentences you quoted I was summarizing "the thrust of this discussion."
I then continued,
"In the first place the person who chooses to consult with a psychological astrologer does so
because of the word astrology in the title,
because he believes in it and its efficacy.
That belief might be mistaken but he's not being misled
." [emphasis added]


In short, the exact opposite of what you were supposedly agreeing with.

If, however, in your psychological counseling practice you don't resort to astrology,
for instance for diagnostic purposes,
then I was mistaken in thinking you were using astrology without your clients being cognizant of that fact
and also mistaken in my tentative conclusion that you were therefore misleading your clients.

Just to be absolutely clear, though, neither in my opinion is the person who calls himself a psychological astrologer.

I find it hard to imagine anyone so dimwitted as not to realize
that a psychological astrologer is an astrologer,
not an academic psychologist.


The latter calls himself a psychological astrologer, not just "a psychologist,"
precisely because he's not trying to mislead the client,
who is after all almost certainly looking for an astrological consultation,
not a consultation with an academic psychologist.
clearly then
by the quoted clarification
a psychological ASTROLOGER does not require ANY academic psychology qualification
in order to practice PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGY

because
clients seeking advice are seeking an ASTROLOGICAL consultation
AND NOT 'a consultation with an academic psychologist'

and so
a self-styled 'psychological astrologer' is not attempting to mislead clients

because
when a client seeks ASTROLOGICAL advice from any ASTROLOGER
whether that person is a self-styled PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGER or not
knowledge of/familiarity with astrological techniques is the important factor
NOT psychological knowledge

A psychological astrologer then simply DOES NOT REQUIRE academic psychology qualifications
such as for example, A DEGREE IN PSYCHOLOGY
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 12-03-2014 at 09:47 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #56  
Unread 12-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Exactly. Liz Greene has a recent (2010) Ph. D. now from an accredited British university (Bristol)-- but it isn't in psychology. It's in history. Her 1971 "Ph. D." was from a small diploma mill that no longer exists.
To answer the OP’s question, it was Liz Greene’s book ‘Saturn – a new look at an old Devil’ that started the study psychological astrology…. in my opinion. Perhaps she’d completed years of therapy, and applied her knowledge of astrological imagery to develop a deeper understanding…?

W
hatever her credentials are or experiences were, her insights are inspired and legitimate....

She modernized astrology by getting rid of the dangerous over-simplification of interpreting good’ ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ and demonstrated very convincingly, that astrology can also describe human nature as infinitely more complex.

Last edited by Inline; 12-03-2014 at 12:05 PM.
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  #57  
Unread 12-03-2014, 04:15 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

JA, have you read the books of psychological astrologers like Liz Greene?

[deleted attacking response - Moderator]

Some of their material is explicitly psychological-- even from Freud's playbook in the earlier years. (See, for example, Greene and Sasportas, The Development of Personality vol. 1 from their Seminars in Psychological Astrology series, 1987.) Sasportas's chapter on "The Stages of Childhood" is explicitly Freudian, complete with the oral, anal, and oedipal stages-- despite the earlier discrediting of these theories (see J. Masson, The Assault on Truth.)

Greene's discussion of the moon from a therapeutic perspective is often of the Blame Mom type that was popular in the mid-20th century. (See Greene and Sasportas, The Luminaries: The Psychology of the Sun and Moon in the Horoscope of the same series.)

Many of their books are based upon transcripts of Greene's et al. workshops for astrologers/astrology students.

I suspect that nowadays only a small fraction of what transpires as astrological chart-reading for people in the West is of the old-fashioned paid astrologer-paying client variety; due to the rise of Internet amateur chart readings and the facility which astrological software has given to amateurs.

A troubling feature of some of Greene's work on Mom is that Greene seemed to feel that the moon in one's horoscope described one's literal (and usually dysfunctional) mother, typically in a "neurosis"-producing way. Yet:

1. Anybody with siblings would find their moon in different placements, yet Mom is the same person throughout. Even allowing for favouritism and scapegoating, it just does not compute that the moon gives us more than our experience of Mom. We seldom view Mom's side of the story. (For a real Blame Mom psychological astrology text that goes seriously over the top, see Judy Hall, Hades Moon.)

2. Much of Greene's theorizing seems based upon old-fashioned psychotherapy, which was based upon patients/clients with manifest mental health problems. Today, a lot of people have no serious mental health problems, but just want their chart read.

This becomes more troubling when we consider whether, if a chart native has no particular childhood issues or mental health problems to begin with, whether an astrologer trained by the "psychological astrology" group is actually equipped to deal with ordinary decently happy lives.

I can provide many more examples from the "psychological astrology" books on my shelf-- to which I seldom refer these days for the above reasons.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 12-03-2014 at 06:30 PM.
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  #58  
Unread 12-03-2014, 04:32 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inline View Post
To answer the OP’s question, it was Liz Greene’s book ‘Saturn – a new look at an old Devil’ that started the study psychological astrology…. in my opinion. Perhaps she’d completed years of therapy, and applied her knowledge of astrological imagery to develop a deeper understanding…?

W
hatever her credentials are or experiences were, her insights are inspired and legitimate....

She modernized astrology by getting rid of the dangerous over-simplification of interpreting good’ ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ and demonstrated very convincingly, that astrology can also describe human nature as infinitely more complex.
No, unfortunately not. See David Roell's investigative report at: http://www.astroamerica.com/greenebio2.html

She lists her initial "Ph. D." as granted in 1971. Since she was born in 1946, she wouldn't have had a legitimate pre-Ph. D. practice. After receiving her diploma, Greene moved to the UK and started her practice. Interestingly, Roell couldn't even find that Green completed a BA degree, and Greene apparently has not posted receiving one-- that I could find.

I agree that Greene has made significant contributions to astrology, although she did not make them single-handedly. As Zarathu noted, Dane Rudhyar began reading up on and publishing in the vein of the then-popular humanistic psychology, long prior to Greene's birth. Rudhyar's own astrological lineage goes back to the theosophists.

Also, while traditional western astrology of the past can get pretty doomy and gloomy for people with stressful planetary placements, it did have some moderate material on human personality, which was understood as temperament or the soul. To get the idea, try reading Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos: it's in print, and was a huge influence on the Muslim and European astrologers who followed.

Since Greene was a founder of the Faculty of Astrological Studies, we can take its credentialing in psychological astrology under advisement.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 12-03-2014, 04:35 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

.....Anybody with siblings would find their moon in different placements, yet Mom is the same person throughout. Even allowing for favouritism and scapegoating, it just does not compute that the moon gives us more than our experience of Mom. We seldom view Mom's side of the story. (For a real Blame Mom psychological astrology text that goes seriously over the top, see Judy Hall, Hades Moon.)

My experience with Greene's psychological interpretation of the moon (parents) was exactly the opposite......

I picked up from her writings that 'Mom' for example, was in fact a 'different Mom' for different people, siblings included....

This was quite healing when i read it as a young adult.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 06:31 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Clearly, those who consult astrologers
do so because they require an astrological opinion
and
those who consult psychologists
require an academic psychological opinion

To demand that qualifications in academic psychology
are somehow NECESSARY in order to practise 'psychological astrology'
is overlooking the fact
that astrological knowledge
is of far more importance than academic psycholigal qualifications are
to someone who is an astrologer
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Unread 12-03-2014, 08:31 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Inline, can you cite the source? If I have it, I will look it up. The psychological astrology books in my collection do have a sort of cookbook astrology of the moon in signs, yet some of them are so different from one another that it is hard to imagine how siblings could be talking about the same woman. (For example, see her "mothers and matriarchy" chapter in The Luminaries.)

I found Greene's work helpful, as well, when I was younger.

JA, thanks for repeatedly pointing out that someone calling himself a psychological astrologer need have no qualifications whatsoever in psychology. For that matter, he need have no expertise whatsoever in astrology. Indeed, he could be woefully ignorant of anything to do with psychology and still call him self a psychological astrologer. That should tell us something.

Caveat emptor.

And modern astrology does not need the label. There is all kinds of good modern astrology out there that isn't psychological and doesn't claim to be.
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Last edited by waybread; 12-03-2014 at 08:39 PM.
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  #62  
Unread 12-03-2014, 08:33 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

What other kinds of modern astrology are there besides psychological?
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

KnS, are you serious about the question???? Most of what's out there isn't explicitly psychological. Some modern astrologers specialize in particular methods (such as horary,) or topics such as medical, financial, or vocational astrology.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 08:50 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

I was encouraging you to list some for the topic of conversation and so that other readers who are interested in modern astrology, but maybe not psychological (since we've talked smack about it for 60 some odd posts) could have something else to look into...

Modern astrology was invented as a tool of character delineation that has been easily applied to the pseudo-psychological work of some individuals, but which has difficulty translating into other types of work. So, I guess the question is something more like "In what other ways or fields besides psychology is modern astrology being employed?" and "What makes it modern astrology?"
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post

At first I was incredulous that Kai would ask the question, but then I remembered that while I own a number of traditional astrology texts, I rarely look at them. It might be the same for him when it comes to modern astrology.

But, for me, unless there is a specific psychological bent, such as psycho-analytic psychology, that has an actual personality theory attached to it, i don't consider just because it was written after 1930, that its psychological.

This excludes anything by Greene who is rather Jungian. It excludes anything by Noel Tyl after his multi-volume set, which is psycho-analystic.

So here is a list:

1. First of all, all of Ivy Goldstein Jacobson is Modern with no reference to any theory of psychology of personality:

IN THE BEGINNING ASTROLOGY
DARK MOON LILITH
THE WAY OF ASTROLOGY
FOUNDATION OF THE ASTROLOGICAL CHART
ASTROLOGICAL ESSAYS
HERE AND THERE IN ASTROLOGY
ALLOVER THE EATHER ASTROLOGICALLY
FRON OUTER SPACE TO PLANET EARTH

2. Almost anything by Rob Hand, PhD Such as PLANETS IN TRANSIT

3. Robert Pelletier's PLANETS IN ASPECT

4. RELATIONSHIP ANALYSIS by Robert P. Blaschke,

5. THE ASTROLOGY OF HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS by Frances Sakonian and Louis Acker.

6. PREDICTING EVENTS WITH ASTROLOGY by Celeste Teal

7. IDENTIFYING PLANETARY TRIGGERS by Celeste Teal

8. SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS by Nancy Hastings,

9. PROGRESSIONS IN ACTION by Doris Chase Doan,

10. PROGRESSIONS by Robert P. Blaschke(especially for
Minor and Tertiary Progressions),

11. DELINEATION OF PROGRESSIONS by Sophia Mason

12. HOLOGRAPHIC TRANSITS by Robert Blaschke,

13. Forecasting Using
the 45 Degree Graphic Ephemeris by Reinhold Ebertin,

14. THE PRACTICE OF PREDICTION by Nancy Hastings,

15. TRANSITS by Betty Lunstead,
Primary Directions:

16. Midpoint pictures: COSI(Combination of Stellar Influences) by Reinhold Ebertin,

17. PLANETARY CONTAINMENTS by Sandbach & Ballard,

18. SUN SIGN-MOON SIGN by Charles and Suzi Harvey

------

I could go on. While anything written in the 19th and 20th century may have a psychological flavor, in my mind it cannot be called a psychological astrology textbook unless the author clearly has a bent of a certain PERSONALITY THEORY. Personalities theorists include Freud, Jung, Horney, and others of their ilk. For a list of 18: http://drdianehamilton.wordpress.com...reud-and-more/
'.Robert Hand is one of the world's leading
and most esteemed astrologers and historians


Born New Jersey December 1942, he began his work in astrology at the age of 17.
His father, Wilfred Hand pioneered in the study of the applications of astronomical cycles to financial markets
in the 1950's and early 60's.
Rob learned the basics of casting charts from his father
and has been a student of astrology since 1960
and a full-time professional astrologer since 1972

known in his early career
as the first practicing astrologer
to write astrology programs for microcomputers.


During a podcast with Chris Brennan, Rob Hand explains that
PLANETS IN TRANSIT was written originally as a computer program
.....'
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/...nal-astrology/


'..Hand founded Astro-Graphics Services in 1979, later Astrolabe.
Hand taught high school Chemistry and History and is a graduate of Brandeis University
and The Catholic University of America.
Robert Hand is the foremost expert in Military Astrology in Late Medieval Italy.
Mr. Hand is current Chairman of the Board for Kepler College.
and former Chairman of the National Council of Geocosmic Research,
He lectures in Webinars, conferences, seminars, and workshops worldwide.
1997 he co-founded Arhat Media, a research archive and publishing company
to procure, protect, publish historical astrological/related manuscripts.....'


Robert Hand offers professional astrological media and services to other astrologers
and to general public,
using tropical, heliocentric, sidereal, Uranian, cosmobiological, Astrological Mapping
and in mundo techniques with ancient, medieval and modern methods
.
http://www.arhatmedia.com/libraries.html
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Unread 12-04-2014, 02:25 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Good list, Zarathu!--

I really like the early books by Robert Hand (Planets in Youth, Planets in Transit, Planets in Composite, Horoscope Symbols; and Steven Forrest (The Inner Sky, The Changing Sky.) Hand gets a wee bit psychoanalytic in his introductory material in his early books (which were entirely in the modern astrology idiom,)but his heart doesn't seem to be in it. Forrest's early books are wise and funny. I also like the books he wrote with Jodie Forrest (Skymates, 2 vols.) on synastry; and her book on The Ascendant.

Another good modern astrologer is Stephen Arroyo. He actually has a M. A. in psychology; but thankfully a lot of his material, like Hand's and the Forrests', is just basic insightful common sense. Same with Karen Hamaker-Zondag. Noel Tyl is a prolific author and his early work (like his 12-volume overview of astrology) was not notably psychological.

There are many modern authors slightly less well known than them who published on specific topics. (See, for example, Erin Sullivan on retrograde planets and family patterns.)

As I indicated above, oftentimes when astrologers claim to be doing something with psychology, they more closely follow the work of Joseph Campbell, who was a professor of literature (esp. Sanskrit,) at a women's liberal arts college, not a psychologist. He extensively studied cross-cultural plot lines and archetypes.

KnS, a major branch of modern astrology that I forgot to mention is spiritual astrology. This runs a huge gamut, from karmic past-lives astrology to theosophy to Christianity. Major names in this area would be Dane Rudhyar (whose "psychology" is of the theosophical humanistic variety,) Isabel Hickey, Alan Oken (a student of Alice Bailey,) and even Edgar Cayce.

Modern astrology absolutely did not get its start with Greene an "psychological astrology" but with the theosophical movement in the late 19th/early 20th century, through authors like Alan Leo, Marc Edmund Jones, and C. E. O. Carter. Any psychology that you find in their books is of a pretty low-order sort. The theosophical movement itself had its basis in the romantic movement that swept Europe in the mid-19th century; with its fascination with antique esoteric lore. A major group was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

On the history of both traditional and modern western astrology, see Nicholas Campion's 2 volume work: The Dawn of Astrology and A History of Western Astrology.

And the above barely scratches the surface of modern astrology, if you're interested in midpoints, harmonics, fixed stars, asteroids or Sabian symbols, there is a lot more out there.

In the psychological astrology department, however, I would like to recommend Alice O. Howell, a Jungian astrologer. I would classify her work more on the spiritual side of modern astrology, however.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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I was encouraging you to list some for the topic of conversation and so that other readers who are interested in modern astrology, but maybe not psychological (since we've talked smack about it for 60 some odd posts) could have something else to look into...

Modern astrology was invented as a tool of character delineation that has been easily applied to the pseudo-psychological work of some individuals, but which has difficulty translating into other types of work. So, I guess the question is something more like "In what other ways or fields besides psychology is modern astrology being employed?" and "What makes it modern astrology?"
I hope the sources that Zarathu and I posted will be enough to get you started!

At its core, modern astrology began as a simplification of traditional astrology and as a more spiritual endeavour; although this phase didn't last long. One type of simplification was doing away with most of the essential and accidental dignities (although this varies by author,) and inclusion of the modern outer planets (although some trads use them, too.)

The focus is pretty much on planets in signs, houses, and in aspect. Although the focus was on the explication of the individual personality, initially a lot of it appears more like traditional astrology.

For example, here is Alan Leo, 1903, How to Judge a Nativity, p. 127, on the sun in Pisces in the first house:

"Short stature, somewhat corpulent, round visage, complexion moderately good, light brown hair, fond of games and sports of a harmless innocent nature, fond of the opposite sex and rather improvident. Hospitable and kind to dumb animals. Generally good swimmers and always fond of the water. Somewhat religious minded."

Although the interpretations of the sun in the first varies in Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) and Firmicus Maternus (4th century CE) the style actually doesn't seem all that different to me.

Where you get a big shift towards looking into psychology is in the more spiritually-inclined modern astrologers like Dane Rudhyar. He dedicated The Astrology of Personality (1936) to mystic and channeler Alice Bailey. Chapter 2 is titled "Astrology and Analytical Psychology." But if you read this chapter closely, what excites Rudhyar is Carl Jung's exploration of topics that were previously the purview of humanists and occultists, such as the I Ching; plus Jung's theory of synchronicity. Rudhyar took the latter as an opening for astrology, in which timing is crucial.

Rudhyar (p. 82) identified 3 types of psychology: (1) spiritual, "which is a branch of philosophy or religion"; (2) physiological, which deals with sensory perception, emotions, and thoughts-- what today might be called behavioural science; and (3) analytical astrology (consciousness and relationship between parts of the psyche [sic].) #3 deals holistically with "the psychic life of man." He then contrasts views of the unconscious proposed by Freud and Jung; with Jung triumphant.

He goes on in this vein. But mostly what Rudhyar is after is a theory of the individual going through a sequence of Enlightenment by the Zodiac or Enlightenment by House Numbers. Rudhyar's grand project is the Perfectibility of Man. Here he sounds far more like a theosophist than like a psychoanalyst, or even like a practising astrologer. For good measure, he throws in Sabian symbols, Daoism, and numerology alongside what in 1936 passed for psychoanalysis.

Zarathu, I think there's a personality theory in here somewhere. But I read a fair number of charts for people, and usually they have a pretty practical view of life. I don't know that Rudhar's personality theories help much with natal chart interpretation, if that's what we're after.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Inline, can you cite the source? If I have it, I will look it up.

The psychological astrology books in my collection do have a sort of cookbook astrology of the moon in signs, yet some of them are so different from one another that it is hard to imagine how siblings could be talking about the same woman. (For example, see her "mothers and matriarchy" chapter in The Luminaries.)

I found Greene's work helpful, as well, when I was younger.
An interesting example....is Greene discussing the 'compulsive self-interested' mother from the perspective of a neptunian child in: 'Neptune' chapter: 'Psychoanalytic Neptune' pg. 149

... In my opinion, to describe psychological astrology as the modern form of traditional astrology is appropriate, when traditional medicine considers psychoanalysis to be the modern form of medicine in the 20th century...

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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

It seems like there's a differentiation between astrology that is considered psychological and that which is based on character analysis. Would you say this is a fair characterization of the different types of modern astrology you're distinguishing between? 1) Psychological 2) Spiritual (Evolutionary, etc) 3) Character analysis?

I'm not sure I agree that psychological and character analysis astrology are really different. One just seems to take itself more seriously than the other.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Zarathu,

I think complexity is one alternative. The other is versatility. In the first case, we turn our attention to the system of astrology and develop it to mirror the complexity of our reality. In the second case, we focus on the person who practices astrology, and demand that they are versatile enough (as a tool) to be able to mediate between the simplicity of form and the multiplicity of meaning that makes a symbol a symbol...

[the post to which this is a reply has been deleted by Zarathu]
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Inline, I found the page and chapter you cite in Liz Greene, 1996, The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption. It' s in a section called "Fusion and Separation," which starts out talking about Donald Winnicott's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Winnicott theory of the "good enough mother."

To put some cards on the table: I am the mother of two adult children who turned out well by most standards, in terms of career and emotional stability. Both are sun-Virgos, and my daughter's Pisces moon opposes her sun. My son's Scorpio moon sextiles his sun. I am fortunate to have a loving, stable relationship with both of them (their words,) although my daughter and I went through rockier passages than I did with my son. Both of my children left home to attend universities a considerable distance from where I live, with our encouragement, and now live nowhere nearby, so I don't think I qualify as Ms. Smothering Mother. I worked part-time before they were school age in order to spend time with them while keeping a hand in my career.

I have a lot of trouble with Greene's fusion of astrology and psychoanalysis.

When my children were young I knew many other mothers of young children, through play groups, pre-school, religious school, neighbours, and wives of colleagues. These experiences do not rank me with pediatricians, pre-school teachers, or child psychologists, but they did give me a sample of mostly-normal mother-child relationships during the children's early years. Rarely, I saw the over-protective (to me) mother, never the neglectful mother of a young child. Most of the moms and children seemed perfectly OK and loving.

I don't write this to turn attention to myself: rather, as one illustration of why Greene's psychoanalysis may fall short.

Greene notes that Winnicott's theory helpfully turned attention away from "impossible standards of perfection" for mothers. Ultimately "the objective is not parent-bashing." So far, so good.

But on p. 149 (which you cite) we don't learn about the OK Mom, but about the "compulsively self-interested" mother who neglects her "Neptunian" child's emotional needs.

The "Neptunian child" unfortunately could be just about anybody: sun or moon in Pisces? Neptune rising? Neptune squaring, conjuncting, or opposing a personal planet?

Then the "overly 'preoccupied' mother-- the one who cannot relinquish her own fusion with the child--may be portrayed in the child's birth chart by difficult configurations of the Moon with Neptune or Pluto, or with the Moon, Neptune, or Pluto located at the Midheaven and/or in the 10th house."

Allowing for a 10-degree orb with the moon, and 5 to 7 degrees for the planets, we are now talking about a lot of real estate around the horoscope perimeter. Yet how common, really, in the general population, are these problems? Of course they occur, but does anyone else see anything loosey-goosey here?

The "good enough mother" theory in this section further does not acknowledge the role of child-rearing theories, pediatric professionals, and culture in child-rearing practices. (Anyone else here recall the "other" Spock, author of Baby and Child Care, one of the best-selling books of all time?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock Anyone here read Alice Miller on the aloofness and even cruelty of normed German child-rearing practices? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist) Her book Drama of the Gifted Child places the blame for mental health problems due to child abuse on the shoulders of societies that ignore or even foster it.

What about children who grow up in close extended families, notably in places where multiple care-givers is the cultural norm, and nobody expects Mom to be the sole primary care-giver for her baby? Grandmothers who live close by and have the time to spare are often huge contributors to the raising of young children. Many working mothers today have been fortunate to find loving and attentive paid care-givers.

Sadly, back when I was a kid, there was no emotional support for single mothers who had to work long hours to support their children-- putting bread on the table and a roof over their heads. No doubt some middle-class psychoanalysts saw them as "aloof" or "self absorbed."

One feels (pp. 152-3) that Winnecott's "good enough mother" still faces a high bar, indeed.

For a recent and balanced retrospective on Freud, see: http://io9.com/why-freud-still-matte...ost-1055800815

The author notes that psychological scientists had abandoned Freud's theories by 1996-- the year Greene's book was published.

Of the Liz Greene books I've read this one is, nevertheless, probably her best. It is loaded with scholarship, multiple examples, and I think a good characterization of Neptune beyond psychoanalysis. I had many "aha" moments reading this book. I just happen to disagree with Greene's portrayal of motherhood, because it seems to be based upon a flawed psychoanalytic view of motherhood more generally.

Greene herself has no children.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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It seems like there's a differentiation between astrology that is considered psychological and that which is based on character analysis. Would you say this is a fair characterization of the different types of modern astrology you're distinguishing between? 1) Psychological 2) Spiritual (Evolutionary, etc) 3) Character analysis?

I'm not sure I agree that psychological and character analysis astrology are really different. One just seems to take itself more seriously than the other.
Zarathu answered the second part of your question. By way of analogy, you wouldn't say that what distinguishes a M. D. with a specialty in internal medicine from me drinking chicken soup if I have a sore throat, is that the doctor takes herself more seriously. We might throw in the facts that I never graduated from medical school, completed an internship and residency, passed medical board exams, or treated patients on a regular basis.

I sometimes wonder if astrologers who want to paper-over the shortage of credentialing in astrology really know what they don't know. So many, IMHO, don't know what they don't know.

KnS, if you are a traditional western astrologer, how would you characterize someone like Valens's or Maternus's cookbooks on character delineation? There's obviously no psychoanalysis in them, nor is there any in Steven Forrest's modern best-sellers, The Inner Sky. How would you characterize Vedic/jyotish astrology? It had a long history prior to the introduction of psychology and cognate fields into India.

I am sure you know that modern astrology goes well beyond genethliacal astrology, although this is probably its largest share. Modern astrology also includes horary, electional, mundane, and predictive astrology.

I think it is fair to suggest that modern astrology does a lot of work with character analysis. This is something people do every day in their ordinary lives. I think we're on much safer ground saying we can give a character analysis vs. claiming affiliation with well developed fields like psychology in which most of us have no education or experience.

Similarly, for people interested in spiritual astrology, spirituality is a state of being that isn't specifically tied to theology, institutionalized doctrines, or particular creeds.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Both Jung and Freud's theories of personality were abandoned by professional counselors long before 1996.
This is false. Psychodynamic therapy/counselling is arguably the most prevalent form of psychotherapy today, and definately the most expensive. Psychodynamic theory is based on and incorporates theories of Jung, Freud and others (Winnicott, Klein, etc.).

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This was why the cognitive behavioral approaches were developed
Cognitive behaviour modification was not developed to compensate for other models. It gained popularity because it is statistically quantifiable, unlike the more phenomenological approaches (of which astrology is a part). In the UK, cognitive behaviour modification is not recognised as a counselling model, for obvious reasons.

I am surprised that as counselling astrologer, Zarathu, you abandon psychodynamic theory in favour of the cognitive behaviour model, which ignores the subconscious. Surely Pluto and the moon speak of its significance.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychod..._psychotherapy

http://www.simplypsychology.org/psychodynamic.html

It sounds like therapists are concerned about overall efficacy, and that the results of psychodynamic therapy need further validation. So far the results compared with other therapies are OK but not outstanding. Which begs the question of how many astrologers have any background in this form of psychotherapy, either.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by waybread
Zarathu answered the second part of your question. By way of analogy, you wouldn't say that what distinguishes a M. D. with a specialty in internal medicine from me drinking chicken soup if I have a sore throat, is that the doctor takes herself more seriously. We might throw in the facts that I never graduated from medical school, completed an internship and residency, passed medical board exams, or treated patients on a regular basis.
Qualifying psychological astrology as exclusively psycho-analytical comes across as suggesting that only trig or calculus is indeed mathematics. Would you agree that anything that attempts to explain or behavior or character is psychological to some extent?

It almost sounds like you're trying to put psychological astrology on something of a pedestal and it should be this thing that adheres to "real" theories by "real" professionals. Chicken soup is a remedy, after all, even if a lowly, simple, or humble one.

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if astrologers who want to paper-over the shortage of credentialing in astrology really know what they don't know. So many, IMHO, don't know what they don't know.
I certainly hope you aren't trying to lump me into this category. I'm just asking questions to figure out what I don't know. If you want to talk people who want to paper over credentials, I'm going to have to introduce you to the ISAR people. I may have mentioned this before, but at one time they had a proposal to make all of their certificate program students undergo a year of therapy.

Quote:
KnS, if you are a traditional western astrologer, how would you characterize someone like Valens's or Maternus's cookbooks on character delineation? There's obviously no psychoanalysis in them, nor is there any in Steven Forrest's modern best-sellers, The Inner Sky.
I tend to think that anything that discusses the internal mechanisms of an individual is psychological. I think this is our biggest disagreement.

Quote:
I am sure you know that modern astrology goes well beyond genethliacal astrology, although this is probably its largest share. Modern astrology also includes horary, electional, mundane, and predictive astrology.
Ha, yes. Let's not discuss feelings about that.

Quote:
I think it is fair to suggest that modern astrology does a lot of work with character analysis. This is something people do every day in their ordinary lives. I think we're on much safer ground saying we can give a character analysis vs. claiming affiliation with well developed fields like psychology in which most of us have no education or experience.
I think this is probably a very good middle ground of sorts to emphasize. My only concern is one I've already stated; it basically comes across as splitting hairs between the "real" psychology of in-depth psycho-analysis vs the "fake" psychology of character analysis. But to me they both seem to be blaming the same mother.

This has been an interesting discussion so far.
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