Do you believe in God?

tikana

Well-known member
jagetoile said:
Tik, i will try to make myself clearer. it does not really matter how you call this "mightier" and "higher" thing, the thing that is larger that yourself.

"chemical""physical reaction between atoms", it is just excellent.


Not quite, Jag

I am not saying that there is something LARGER than me. All I am saying is each day you encounter something or someone, any event, or any whatever is a chemical and physical reactions. It comes from MIND! If there was something or someone larger than us, then we wouldnt be having problems as we are having on Earth. We have a power to give and take away life.

Where was GOD when 9/11 happened? Where is God when millions of people are dying in Africa? Where was God, when Hussein was killing millions of people? where was God when millions of people died in concentration camps in Europe? or Where was God when an innocent person was accused and convicted of a rape he didnt commit *he was convicted cause some lady mistaken him in the line up*? It took 35 years of non-stop appeals to get his conviction overturned because of OUR advancement in DNA testing. Where is God when millions of children are traded on a black sex slave market like it is a garage sale?

Why is it when somethihng goes our way, we say "thank god"? or when something goes wrong "the devil did it?" or whatever excuse humans think of. Where are the people whose prayers have not been answered? No one likes to talk about unanswered prayers. Or why is it when a person is sick, if he/she thinks possitively, he/she gets better just by projecting possitive thinking vs a person who is constantly projecting negative to him/herself remains the same and has a much slower rate of getting better.

sorry, guys, we really underestimate a power of a human and his/her mind which during any kind of encounter creates a chemical and physical reaction which triggers you to think "ohh there is God, it is meant to be, it is fate."
Ask a 12 year old girl in asia if she wanted to sell her body to a pedophile so she can feed her new born baby. Did her prayers to God were answered? or how about this one. Where is God when millions of kids are in foster care? Do you think a child doesnt pray "dear god, please find me a home and good parents"? There are children living on the streets in eastern Europe snorting whatever laying around. Do you think they pray each night with something like "God, i need a better life"? They dont know where to go, They are forgotten by society. To them there is no God cause they see the worst. Where is God when thounsands of women are being used as sex slave trading without their concent?

Everything is explainable. In ancient times, people thought that lighting and thunder were signs of Gods being pissed off. Or dryout and failed crops in Aztec civilization made people think "We didnt do something right to please Gods, so lets yank hearts out of human bodies just to please gods!" Ohh how about this one, Egypt.. Pharaoh takes the wife but he is not married to her, however the God is!

I rest my case

Tik
 

flea

Well-known member
I thought I would post this puzzle explain by Neale Donald Walsch in his Conversations book.... that the evolutionists and the creationists are both right. They are fascinating books about what people often just call SOURCE. And Tik please remember that scientists are forever changing their truths, just as we all are. Even No Brainers change after a century or two have passed.

Love & Light
Flea
 

tikana

Well-known member
Flea

remember the time when the church put to death people who strongly believed that earth is not center of the universe and is round?

Let's see what church says after the scientists find life on other planet.

btw, scientists dont change. so far no one has anything scientifically that has been reversed.

Tik
 

Carole

Well-known member
Those books Flea mentioned before, Conversations With God, make an edifying trilogy in which an interesting concept of what is God is offered, and it would be great if every one could read it.


Carole
 

Suvasri

Well-known member
It would also be good for the spiritually inclined people if they see the movie "OH GOD".Certain dialogues in the film throw rare insight on HIM.Thanx to flea for mentioning the book above.
 

flea

Well-known member
Tik

A church is a social structure as we understand it with many strange rules and regulations depending on your persepctive. I can only say that Caroles point is well endorsed by myself. These books encourage a self questioning. The church can be a fantastic social structure for controlling what large numbers of people think and do and say. It is highly improbable that it has not been used for that purpose. With that in mind who is to say that God actually endorses "the Church".

Science, this is a funny thing. At base it is seems to be a purely an observation of what is. It is sitting within a certain social structure. I will try to illuminate this by a story. I do remember my sister doing an experiment at Uni which was producing results not expected. The lecturers instantly said the methods of the experiment were wrong, there was no way the results stood up to the known information at that time. One person listened and realised that the experiment was correct, and the known information was in error. There is an awful lot of pressure on scientists to conform. There is also lots of politics on what results get published and acknowledged. It is as I say sitting within a certain socuial structure. One of my favourite scientists is Harold Saxton-Burr a professsor at Harvard up til the 1950's who studied the totally unpopular area of the bodies' energy field, using it to determine dianosis prior to manifestation in a the physical. This area covers thoughts about auras, very new agey. Now he had very good credentials yet his work has been overlooked for decades, even though his diagnostic results for cancer and psychiatric disorders were amazing, 90% plus results for early stage cancer. The problem again is not science itself but how it is manipulated within a certain social structure.

Life on other planets is not antithetical to many religions and religious and spiritual people. I am also serious in my proposition that evolution and creation both happened. It is the concept of time that people seem to feel is constant but which we know is not, that is of great issue here I think.

I also do not feel any discordance between science and spiritual thought and experience. My Dad is a scientist and very spiritual and was very influenced by a guy calle Velikovsky, I suppose a cosmologist, a guy denounced by the scientific community for years yet his theories have changed ideas somewhat. I will not go into detail here, but invite people to make their own inquiries and come to their own conclusion.

BTW I am not saying that your position is wrong Tik. I am taking the inspiration from your posts to express my own, so thankyou for the pointers.

Love & Light
Flea
 

tikana

Well-known member
Flea

i amnot saying that you are implying that my views are wrong.

Church is nothing but politicial prostitute *i appologize for anyone who is offended*
Church has done everything to flip and flop and change as the wind changes. iN WW2, church did little to nothing to stop hitler. They could have at least shortened the war. Church cannot even agree on homosexual relations when in. It is soo twisted if you read closer.. You can bend the words both ways if you want to

Here is 1 Corinthians 6:9 from the NIV. It plainly states that those who practice homosexuality (people who actualy engage in the act of homosexuality--not homosexuals) can not enter God's Kingdom. They are included in a group of people God calls wicked

There is not a word about HOMOSEXUALS! WHY? cause if that was the case, then the ROMANS, who have been bi-sexual from day1, that would **** the romans off.. why? because Constantine was the first roman emperor to accept christanity. Men shared bathhouses with each other so who know what was going on behind closed doors. so you wonder why does Catholic church has so many cases of child molestation.

in the old testament, numerous biblical characters had multiple underage wives. yet the medieval Church played a huge role in establishing monogamy as the norm in Western countries. Talk about flip-flopping

There is nothing wrong with science.. People are the ones who are wrong interpreting their findings. Even look at astrology, Madeline's chart, everyone is trying to see a light in the chart. i dont see it. *most of us are amateur astrologers, imagine what scientists go through day by day spent years on fruitless researches. This can frustirate anyone. Just because a person is a scientist, it does not mean he/she is not spiritual ESP if you live in the US. Spiritual does not mean he/she believes in God. Beleiving and following the simple rule "do no harm to any animal or a person" is not from the bible but from homosepians, who from early stage have developed morals and intergrity. Pull any paper money out of a pocket. It has "in god we trust" then in the American anthem we have GOD in the lyrics. Evolution is not taught in schools! At least one thing i gotta thank communist regime for. I didnt get to hear Adam and Eve rib sharing story. I just dont buy it. Darwin makes hell out of more sensen than biblical version. Speaking of the bible, in the old testament god created the world in 7 days. In the first place, god did not create the world in 7 days -- or any other period of time. The universe is 13.7 billion years old; the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

the bible says 9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
I love this one... imagine what would come out out of church after the sattilite picks up living bacteria from Europa, Jupiter's mooon. It has no land. all locked in the ice.

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"

—Nietzsche

I luv his works.. one of the best philosophers in history.

That is why i have been sayign from day 1, GET RID OF CHURCH, GODS, RELIGIONS, and etc. World would be much better place. Notice, all wars start or involve God/religion/church. Church *not talkign about just about christianity here* always gets away with mass murder, atrocities, genocide, terrorism, and etc.
Tik
 
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flea

Well-known member
Tik,

In my opinion your arguement is a little superficial. Who said time as we know it even existed when the universe was created. It is a little bent anyhow, as we can see today what happened billions of years ago. Who says that the day refered to is as we understand it.

I think you have to explain whose interpretations of the bible you are using for anyone to even comment on them usefully. I do not relate to your understanding of what it means at all. There is a whole heap of semantics in there. Words are very limited I am finding. I find poetry more useful than anything.

"There is nothing wrong with ........... People are the ones who are wrong interpreting their findings." You could insert any word in here and it could work. Maybe better is that people are the ones that find things wrong.

People are the ones that have made the mental constructs of science, god, politics, the devil, christianity, islam etc etc.

By denying one of these constructs existence does not mean that the forces behind it disappear. It is the human mind that is creating these conditions of war famine loss inequality inhumanity. We humans have a habit of denial and tend to project blame for those things we create but dont like the look of. There is a view of God beyond the human mental construct.

How do you relate to " the kingdom of god is within you", how does this quote fit in to your arguement construct. How does God exist away from your mental construct of "church"? Your arguement for the abolition of God seems to depend on your outrage of the "church" whatever you define that to be.

Love & Light
Flea
 
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tikana

Well-known member
Jag,

Basically, not exactly! like i said there is a chemical and physical reaction between the planet and you. After the big bang, every scattered element of the universe ended up in our human bodies. look at any planet's element and google to see if itis in our body. You'd be surprized. why is it that i am highly sensitive to pluto transits vs neptune? Me being a scorpio with leo rising. Our bodies are intune with each planet's movement without you knowing it unless you do elective astrology. That is why astrology works.

I believe in "fate" but fate is not god's creation but a product of forcing you and that fated thing/person to be in a perfect balance... pick any event and it can be very well explained by using astrology. pick any event that was supposed to take place that didnt, again astrology will explain why it didnt happen. i am facing this right now.
a few years ago, something fell on my lap and i coudlnt grab and hold on to it because i wasnt ready to have it. I could have sworn that this was the thing that was meant for me to have. i tried to hold on to it as long as i could. it slipped away. Transits were nowhere near where they should have been to solidify the perminennce. Now, the exact same thing falls down on my lap with much more powerferful force and i am bloody tempted to take it, now there are transits backing what should have been mine so long ago. I got pluto, neptune, uranus, saturn, nnode, eclipses on my side. Something in my head is clicking "this is yours! take it" if there is god, then it played a really really cruel joke on me, but there must be a greater good to all this.

Nietzche gone insane because he saw a man beating his horse. He wasnt a healthy boy to begin with. nothing to do with ego.

Nietsche strongly believed that there is a possitive possbolities for humans to be without God. Abolishing belief in god opens the new way for the human creative ability to fully develop itself. Also he states in "superman," something along the likes after abolishing God, nothing no longer could stand in the way of the human being seeing and stop taking the real world for granted. He says the God is dead, it means that the wolrd will be a blank canvas. So far one faith/religion has been overwriting the old one with the new twist to satisfy everyone's explanations. Niezche also strongly suggested that abolishing the past beliefs, a human will see and experience true freedom without the baggage of the past.

Flea

i couldnt come up with a better explanaiton *the kingdom of god within you".. something happened to me many many times which really made me relook at the dead sea scrolls. Anyway, one day i was just laying on the floor.. and my mind just went into this peace no thought nothing complete silence. It felt like i was in nirvana. I saw nothing, i felt nothing, i thought of nothing. it was complete peace and quiet.that is when i thought maybe that is what they meant by "kingdom of god is within you"

and YES, scientists can pin point the time when the world has been created. The earth's age has been timed by using radiometric age dating of zircons
age of universe was measured with Nasa's WMAP *wilkinson microwave anisotropy probe*..

my problem with the church is very simple. Church should quit lying to everyone and bending itself as the wind changes.. Church and politics are in the same pot.

'"There is nothing wrong with ........... People are the ones who are wrong interpreting their findings." You could insert any word in here and it could work. Maybe better is that people are the ones that find things wrong."

OF COURSE! * You could insert any word in here and it could work.* lemme give you an example. when i was 10 years old I was in the summer camp. one night i looked up in the sky, i saw something unexplainable. my friend saw the same thing.
we were VERY VErY far away from spaceshuttle launch pad (4 hours of flight)
anyway, he thought it was UFO, i was thinking hmmm shooting star. Anyway, a few months later I read in the newspaper that it was a part of a sattilite cap that was burning in the atmosphere. Most findings if you hadnt noticed were made by accident.

that is why i am an apathetic agnostic. (a person who believes that is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of god(s), but since any god(s) that may exist appear unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic anyway).

Cheers
Tik
 

Shaun

Member
Re: Do you believe in God? - to tikana

tikana -

I HIGHLY admire, respect and commend your honesty. Would love to discuss any subject with a mind such as yours.

Best regards,

Shaun:sunny:
 

tikana

Well-known member
Why, thank you, Shaun!

ahhh that made my day...

must be my 3rd house cluster (merc/uranus/sun/moon)
and jupiter in 9th

cheers
thanks again

Tik
 

flea

Well-known member
Tik,

I quoted your "Nothing wrong with........." as you can easily insert science in this sentence. Science is purely observation of what is. I do feel its use has been distorted and not to the benefit of all. Scientific discoveries like the uses of oil are literally destroying our planet. The clearing of forest to produce "wealth" (who for??) is reduced the massive oxygen plant, that is trees. It takes a hundred years for some large trees to grow. And this goes on and on, I am not even going to talk about the defense industry.


Church I am assuming you to mean as the catholic Church, but I could be wrong here. And I am sure that any free thinking person does have problems with the church, how it is controlled, how it acts, what it embodies.

What about this concept, what if there is nothing that exists that isn't god?? The books I mentioned earlier talk about this. They cover so many ideas and concepts that I have always wondered about, I thought it might be something that would really entertain your mind.

We are the ones that have to take responsibility for creating peace,if we dont engage no one else will. I have a feeling you are with me on this one....

Love & Light
Flea
 

tikana

Well-known member
Flea

i am talking about every church you name it ..
Catolic, orthodox, lutheran, protestant, and etc.

The oxygen/global warming ... again it is all politics. Science is not even involved. There are machines already existing that can replenish ozone. There is already technology that can produce cars that run on water. You can put ozone replenishing machines in the desert and let them generate ozone and release them into the air. Do people want to do that? OF COURSE NOT!why? cause they can use this as their propaganda like Al Gore. Check out his electricity bill.
When i was a kid, every month we used to go around our neighborhood and collect old newspapers and magazines to recycle. We collected bottles and plastics to recycle.
We didnt do it as a political agenda.. The jack*sses these days use global warming as a political platform.

OIL? blame the chinese.. they are the ones who discovered oil.. they used petrolium burn brine to create salt. In Azerbaijan, in 9th century they drilled oil to produce naphtha. If you are thinking this way, then you gotta ask yourself.. do everything I do n this life is damaging earth? OF COURSE.. you turn on the light, you create pollution. If you burn wood to heat your house, you create pollution. Cotton shirt you are wearing is polluting our air because of the way it is manufactured.

The biggest problem to global warming is overpopulation.This is not just today's problem.. Earth has been heating itself since mid 16th century. Population has been growing a bit earlier.

If a country is under a risk of being invaded, 100% politicians will use everything in their arsenal to cause people to revolt. I am not just talking about weapons. YES, religion as well. My motto of my life is DO NO HARM. i stay the hell away from anything organized. I met fantastic muslims in my 31 years. There was one family that lived above us and next to us *they had extended family so they needed 2 apartments* they were ready to die for us if something was to happen. My mom once was very sick almost died.. They were the first to bring up my adoption if it was ever come to that... my two crazy aunts *my mom;s sisters" did not even bring that up until my mom really got sick... when i was 9, my mom was fixing the pipe in my room .. she was banging it with a hammer. The neighbor, who was muslim, run downstairs to check if something happend. My grandma fell a couple of times, they came over and got the ambulance and went to the hospital to visit her... 3 weeks ago i met one of the most beautiful women i have ever seen. She beats Angelina Jolie hands down. She is a muslim very western though, an amazing woman. Her glowing personality and face my god .. more people like that we will be much better. BTW, speaking of muslims... the handshake came from middle east, Arabia to be precise. What the christians did in Arabia, we forget. are you surprized why everyone is pissed at each other and throws religion as an ultimate weapon?

Defense industry>? lol who is equipping Iran? USA! Who is feeding Iran with parts for their army? USA again! how did Iran get hold of our F-class airplanes? USA sold them during iran-iraq conflict. or how did Turkey get hold of western european tanks and artillery?
look at the west and you will have your answer. it is all politics.

One cool thing about middle east/south europe *greece, italy, bulgaria, hungary, armenia, azerbaijan, georgia* .. if people do not know you, you will drag you to their house and feed you to death. "Come, sit, eat!" That is how I was raised.

Cheers
Tik

PS i know what you are saying though. Ideally, world would work if the way you see it, but politics get on the way to protect the land.
 
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flea

Well-known member
I have been really enjoying this exchange tik, really makes me look at what I think and believe, because that is what I am creating in my life.

I suppose I see God in the same way you see Science.
Tik
It is not what science is that is the problem it is the way people use it.
Flea
It is not what God is that is the problem it is the way people use it.

Would I be close in the above assumption, please tell me if I misunderstand your words as it is not my intention.

I also wanted to say a word about overpopulation. 1/5 of the world's population uses 4/5 the world's resources. So maybe over population is not the problem but how the resources are distributed?? 4/5's is not using very much at all, but the 1/5 blames the 4/5s for the resources crisis??? Projection or blame of the problem externally to the self..... we see that so often, even in my own good self!!

We know the use of oil is damaging and poisoning the planet, why do we persist against all logic?? Is there a solution.... and how many people actually know about the alternatives. Maybe there would be revolution in USA of all places if they knew. What do you think?

I have had some powerful experiences of the God inside, so my whole body tingles with energy coursing through and a sense of oneness completeness. I always look forward to going to sleep, as that is where I feel I go.

My take on it is what benefits everyone benefits me. If I am consciously working with that thought in everything I do, I am going to feel a whole lot better in myself and about others. If the whole world does we have true evolution. This evolution seems to happen not all the time but in cataclysmic occurances and usually in the past, how about evolution of consciousness now. I suppose that would be a true proof of evolution to see it happening now.

I have friends from many countries too. I treasure them deeply for they show me the soul of life. So I pray for enlightened government to use what we already have for the benefit of many.

Love & Light my Friend
Flea
 

tikana

Well-known member
flea said:
I have been really enjoying this exchange tik, really makes me look at what I think and believe, because that is what I am creating in my life.

** same here.. i am brainstorming !! great thread i thnk!***

I suppose I see God in the same way you see Science.

** understandable***
Tik
It is not what science is that is the problem it is the way people use it.

Flea
It is not what God is that is the problem it is the way people use it.

**** well if there is a god, the true meaning of it and true identity has been lost forever almost like****

Would I be close in the above assumption, please tell me if I misunderstand your words as it is not my intention.

** you got it! no worries ***

I also wanted to say a word about overpopulation. 1/5 of the world's population uses 4/5 the world's resources. So maybe over population is not the problem but how the resources are distributed?? 4/5's is not using very much at all, but the 1/5 blames the 4/5s for the resources crisis??? Projection or blame of the problem externally to the self..... we see that so often, even in my own good self!!

*** yepp!&&&

We know the use of oil is damaging and poisoning the planet, why do we persist against all logic?? Is there a solution.... and how many people actually know about the alternatives. Maybe there would be revolution in USA of all places if they knew. What do you think?

** a lot actually... all you have to do is get out of the house and travel to see alternative resources.. problem is CORPORATIONS... they are afraid of losing profits.. ***

I have had some powerful experiences of the God inside, so my whole body tingles with energy coursing through and a sense of oneness completeness. I always look forward to going to sleep, as that is where I feel I go

**** i hear you there***.

My take on it is what benefits everyone benefits me. If I am consciously working with that thought in everything I do, I am going to feel a whole lot better in myself and about others. If the whole world does we have true evolution. This evolution seems to happen not all the time but in cataclysmic occurances and usually in the past, how about evolution of consciousness now. I suppose that would be a true proof of evolution to see it happening now.

&&& sure !****

I have friends from many countries too. I treasure them deeply for they show me the soul of life. So I pray for enlightened government to use what we already have for the benefit of many.

*** nod nod .. we already have everything we need for full alternative power. problem is again CORPORATIONS! BP was the first to say "ohh yeah we need alt fuel!* but they turned around and started digging in caspian sea.. well, I for one know that to drill oil and get anywhere in caspian sea will cause 5x times more expenses than profit... basically, waste of time, waste of money.. My mom was engeneering oil rigs in caspian sea.. no one found squat over there since ww2!!.. and I must say OIL there was so pure that oil riggers were filling up soviet tanks and sent them directly to the battle .. back to alt fuel .. why not create an ocean based wind proppellers which do create energy without killing the nature.. DUH! ***

Alright darling.. i gotta work..

Hugs
tik
 
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tikana

Well-known member
jagetoile said:
Tik, you need to deepen your knowledge in the subject of "ego and mental diseases". since the thread is about God, you will have to google it out yourself. best, Jag

Jag

please dont insult my intelligence.. I am a worm when it comes to data..

"Nietzsche began his career as a philologist before turning to philosophy. At the age of 24 he became Professor of Classical Philology at the University of Basel, but resigned in 1879 due to health problems, which would plague him for most of his life. In 1889 he exhibited symptoms of a serious mental illness, living out his remaining years in the care of his mother and sister until his death in 1900."
wikipedia

1883, he wrote "superman" .. he got sick 6 years later!

any other arguments?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/#2

Tik
 

tsquare

Well-known member
Hmmm....interesting thread.
God, Science, progressive developments and an opening to a higher understanding of this universe.
Philosophy
Art of the highest calaber, aesthetics are Powerfull!!
Science
Personal Responseability(not the blame kind) and Knowledge(the Appliable kind)
are the way we will evolve.
That is what I believe anyhow.
......................
I found an interesting book the other day...It is on the next developments in science and energy from what looks like to be a fairly smart guy, some of you may want to check it out.
I really liked it.
Its called Tamashii.
from the authors point of view it looks like it will be a while before we have any of this new technology.A long while....he goes into reasons that are logical from my perspective. I didn't go to deeply into the book, just scanned it and its not to long. The science stuff can get ya if your extremely grounded in "physical" science so read lightly.
Thats all I'm gonna say, its in the free book, check it out.
Its a adobe book so you need adobe reader to read it.
You can download adobe for free on the net if you dont have it.
I cant live without adobe.

Link to the free book:
http://www.hometospirit.com/book.htm
It's the second book down, the author is, Professor j. Newcombe Hodges,
I haven't read the other book on the sight that this links to so don't know what that is yet.
I recommend this second book though.

Let me know what you think.:eek::JK::)
=================================
Tsquare
 
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