Is he connected to the mafia? Why am I cazimi..

Aria Venue said:

The numbers in Ptolemy’s table showing the terms are ordinal . So, the first term of sag is ruled by Jupiter, and spans 8 degrees. The next term is that of Venus, and begins at 8*00’. The next term is that of mercury, and begins at 14*00’.And so on.

so venus has dignity by term in this chart.in order to be peregrine venus should have been 14*01 sag

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Yes I see now. just didn't look at the table

@Jupiter: Seems to me that some of you traditionals can't coexist with modern astrologers. Yes pluto is a drarf or comet... and the sun is now a star and the moon is a satellite! in relation to pluto I would say:If you think you’re too small to be effective, you’ve never been to bed with a mosquito. (not only on angles).The outer planets don't have consensus on dignity- yes we ("moderns") not only know that but also agree with! nevertheless, they still have an effect and work, just like arabic parts and lunar nodes. Can't hear it anymore as well as the discussion about Lilly or Frawley...AND this is a thread about a horary chart not about modern vs. traditional methods.
The traditional significator of 8th house occupations is mars - and in this chart in aspect and reception with jupiter. Maybe I understand that question as different as Aria. To have connections with could just mean that he knows some people but doesn't mean necessarily for me that he's totally involved in criminal activities or it's his main business. That's why Jupiter in his own rulership I don't automatically interpret as a No.

Keep in mind, mafia is not a full time job. It is often just a way of life. Many have normal jobs and just links.
I'm curious about lux11 and what type of suspicious events happened, what got her antenna turned on to ask this question?

kalinka said:

in relation to pluto I would say:
If you think you’re too small to be effective,
you’ve never been to bed with a mosquito.

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now you are quoting HH XIV dalai lama

kalinka said:

@Jupiter: Seems to me
that some of you traditionals can't coexist with modern astrologers.

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you are entitled to that opinion
nevertheless
keep in mind
it is a fact that
modernist astrologers cannot co-exist with each other on modernist matters
modernist astrologers disagree regarding alleged "rulerships" of outers
and multiple other arguments abound regarding meaning of asteroids
which is unsurprising, given there are millions of asteroids to interpret
with more being discovered daily

kalinka said:

(not only on angles).
The outer planets don't have consensus on dignity- yes we ("moderns")
not only know that but also agree with!
nevertheless, they still have an effect and work, just like arabic parts
and lunar nodes.
Can't hear it anymore as well as the discussion about Lilly or Frawley...
AND this is a thread about a horary chart
not about modern vs. traditional methods.

Click to expand...

well nevertheless
you may view this as some kind of this vs that
however
it is important to recognise
that without using traditional methods horary cannot be delineated

kalinka said:

Yes pluto is a drarf or comet...
and the sun is now a star and the moon is a satellite!

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so agreed dwarf planet pluto may be a comet
also keep in mind

Dirius said:

Pluto doesn't reflect light....Pluto doesn't carry a message for us.....
You can't see pluto with the naked eye.

There are thousands of Pluto Like objects in the orbit of the sun, so
....if we are using pluto we should be using those planets too.

The problem si that we assume that because pluto is in our solar system, it should be added to our astrological calculations.

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Dirius said:

.... in my case I don't consider neptune/uranus either for anything at all.

Almost everything that this 3 planets "represent", can be explained by
the placement of other planets in the charts.
Or even using the fixed stars, something that doesn't exist in modern astrology.
We assume that they represent something, because like I said, they
belong to what we call "the solar system", our backyard, sort of speak
...So we think that since they are so big, they must mean something.

Astrology is born in ancient egypt/greece, by tracking the movements of the 2 luminaries
and the 5 errant stars, along with the placement of the fixed stars and constellations:
Sun and moon + mercury/venus/mars/jupiter/saturn + stars
Neptune...uranus...unfortunatly they should mean nothing to us in astrology

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kalinka said:

The traditional significator of 8th house occupations is mars

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explain what is meant by "the traditional significator of the 8th house"

kalinka said:

- and in this chart in aspect and reception with jupiter.
Maybe I understand that question as different as Aria.
To have connections with could just mean that he knows some people
but doesn't mean necessarily for me that he's totally involved in criminal activities
or it's his main business.
That's why Jupiter in his own rulership
I don't automatically interpret as a No.

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kalinka said:

@Jupiter
The traditional significator of 8th house occupations is mars - and in this chart in aspect and reception with jupiter. Maybe I understand that question as different as Aria. To have connections with could just mean that he knows some people but doesn't mean necessarily for me that he's totally involved in criminal activities or it's his main business. That's why Jupiter in his own rulership I don't automatically interpret as a No.

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you are saying that:"The traditional significator of 8th house occupations is mars"

The bulk of the tradition assigns planetary rulerships according to the ancient Chaldean astronomical order of the planets (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon; the former order of the planets in distance from Earth geocentrically):

Each planet has a natural association with a certain house.That is not the same as being the ruler of that house.The ruler of a house in each particular chart will be the planet which rules the sign on the cusp of that house.

Natural associations are something else: the quality of the planet corresponds with the quality of that house. The first planet is associated with the first house, the second planet – with the second house, and so on. So we see that Venus, as the planet of love and sex, is naturally associated with the 5th house. Sun, as the natural significator of fathers – with the 4th, etc. After we have gone through the houses 1-7, the order is repeated: the first planet is associated with the 8th house, the 2nd planet – with the 9th house, and so on.

so traditionally speaking 8th house is naturally associated with saturn.


Astrological anatomy is the only area in traditional astrology where the houses have the same meanings as the signs.... the human body starting with Aries (head) and ending with Pisces (feet).

so Scorpio rules 8th house: organs of excretion, anus.

aside that: 8th house IS RELATED TO:death, other people's money, inheritance, fear and anguish, poisons, organs of excretion.

that without using traditional methods horary cannot be delineated

Yes of course! Never disagreed with that
explain what is meant by "the traditional significator of the 8th house"
=ruler...and you know what I mean. Sorry but english isn't my native language.

AND this is a thread about a horary chart !!!
Why you don't just stop counting beans and tell us your analysis of the chart?

kalinka said:

kalinka said:

(not only on angles).
The outer planets don't have consensus on dignity- yes we ("moderns")
not only know that but also agree with!
nevertheless, they still have an effect and work, just like arabic parts
and lunar nodes.
Can't hear it anymore as well as the discussion about Lilly or Frawley...
AND this is a thread about a horary chart
not about modern vs. traditional methods.

Click to expand...

well nevertheless
you may view this as some kind of this vs that
however
it is important to recognise
that without using traditional methods horary cannot be delineated

Yes of course! Never disagreed with that

JUPITERASC said:

explain what is meant by "the traditional significator of the 8th house"

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=ruler
...and you know what I mean. Sorry but english isn't my native language.
Why you don't just stop counting beans
and tell us your analysis of the chart?

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Aria Venues response highlighting traditional factors is ideal complete explanation
why 8th house has no "permanent ruler"

by the way
not your fault that English is an issue and not easy for you
and not blaming you for it
just wondering which language you are most familiar with
- often these misunderstandings are based on language

kalinka said:

Why you don't just stop counting beans and tell us your analysis of the chart?

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because of AJs useful comments
i.e.

AJ Astrology said:

Hi ElenaJ,
Before introducing irrelevant celestial bodies,
you'll probably want to pin down the correct house to answer the question.

Hi lux111,
I do not believe so.
Umar would tell you to use H4, because
you have a suspicion or matter that you want to know would be true or not.

If your suspicions are based on a rumor, then
H5 might be the appropriate house.

H8 can be used for fear.

Another possibility is his H10 dealing with honor.
Is he an honorable man? His H10 is your H4.

You might want to pose a question in the Horary Technique section

to help determine which house is appropriate for your question, especially since
the house will also determine the correct significator for your question.

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we need to find agreement on which house
then assigning the significators

so @ kalinka
decide to which houses the question is assigned
obviously Querent is 1st house so that's simple

but
then

AJ states that 4th house is the relevant house for this question

not 8th

Yes we look at the 4th house , his 10th. As I said mars is placed in the 10th. We not only look at the ruler of the house rather also which planets are maybe placed in that house. Venus is a beneficial planet but with mercury in mutual reception by term and detriment. Mars is the significant planet here, which is the indicator for a connection with the mafia by sextile with jupiter. Mercury is in scorpio and peregrine, so she thinks about that matter and maybe does have fears. When I talk about Mars I mean his association with 8th house and scorpio matters. Mars is ruler of his 12th ,4th and 5th. So perhaps this connection is due to his family. For example if we want to know if my love interest is involved with someone else - We don't only look at the houses and their rulers, often it's a significant aspect plus reception with the significator of the quesited, which indicates a connection.

kalinka said:

Yes we look at the 4th house ,

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so 4th house using WHOLE SIGNS is Virgo
Virgo is domicile of Mercury
BUT
Lilly uses Regiomontanus
so going with Regiomontanus houses
REGIOMONTANUS 4th is LIBRA ruled by VENUS
ASCENDANT representing QUERENT is GEMINI ruler MERCURY

Mercury and Venus are in DISREGARD aka AVERSION
NOT IN ASPECT

kalinka said:

his 10th. As I said mars is placed in the 10th. We not only look at the ruler of the house rather also which planets are maybe placed in that house. Venus is a beneficial planet but with mercury in mutual reception by term and detriment. Mars is the significant planet here, which is the indicator for a connection with the mafia by sextile with jupiter. Mercury is in scorpio and peregrine, so she thinks about that matter and maybe does have fears. When I talk about Mars I mean his association with 8th house and scorpio matters. Mars is ruler of his 12th ,4th and 5th. So perhaps this connection is due to his family. For example if we want to know if my love interest is involved with someone else - We don't only look at the houses and their rulers, often it's a significant aspect plus reception with the significator of the quesited, which indicates a connection.

Click to expand...

kalinka said:

Yes we look at the 4th house , his 10th. As I said mars is placed in the 10th. We not only look at the ruler of the house rather also which planets are maybe placed in that house. Venus is a beneficial planet but with mercury in mutual reception by term and detriment. Mars is the significant planet here, which is the indicator for a connection with the mafia by sextile with jupiter. Mercury is in scorpio and peregrine, so she thinks about that matter and maybe does have fears. When I talk about Mars I mean his association with 8th house and scorpio matters. Mars is ruler of his 12th ,4th and 5th. So perhaps this connection is due to his family. For example if we want to know if my love interest is involved with someone else - We don't only look at the houses and their rulers, often it's a significant aspect plus reception with the significator of the quesited, which indicates a connection.

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Dear kalinka
it seems that my previous comments didn't help you understand the difference between planets and natural association with houses, traditionally speaking...and this is why you keep repeating that:When I talk about Mars I mean his association with 8th house and scorpio matters."

so once more: mars is not associated traditionally with the 8th house !!!! what you keep saying is modern rulership.8th house traditionally is associated with saturn, so this is why also saturn is natural ruler of death(among other things also), not accidental significator.I hope you understand the difference between natural significators and accidental significators.So mars as a natural significator is related to many things such as : police, war, murder, passion, brothers, chimneys, knifes, blood, criminal, wounds, scorpio,gall bladder,red color, bood and wounds, male genitals....and so many more and again It is naturally associated with houses 3 and 10.Besides that...mars is regarded also as malefic ...as also saturn of cource, while venus and jupiter as benefics!

So let's see here this mars for a moment.So we have a mars which rules radix 6th, 10th, 11th or his turned, 12th,4th and fifth.
and a querent=peregrine, cazimi, in his turned 12th(5 degrees rule again)... so spooking hidden in the shadows(since cannot be seen as being in total proximity to the sun) which surprisingly has not yet responded to this thread so far to tell us...what is the main reason that initiated her to ask this vague question ...and i am saying vague cause clearly according to her sayings :"I feel like there’s something unusual in this chart but I can’t put my finger on it, can someone tell me if anything stands out?.....So I’m Mercury and he is Jupiter and we don’t aspect so.. not mafia. But I’m cazimi in the 5th, as if I’m aware of and protected from something....The cusp of his 10th house of work is exact on his MC, and the lord, Venus, is in his 12th house of secrets. A woman..? She *is* in his sign and between us... and about to come meet him in his 1st house. ...."

so forgive me but i have the feeling that she is snooping in her ex she sees that cazimi and she wonders: why am i cazimi?does this mean that i am actually protected from my ex, since i have some suspicions that since he is from italy he might be implicated to the mob? well mayby he is not actually ...but again i see a woman between us both..."

and then we are trying to figure whether he has dealings with the mob,or whether his job as venus in sag in illegal..or unethical. So is this mars really the mob as natural sig for criminals, while the same moment you claim that mayby his parents, or his father, are criminals as his turned 4th house...but of cource mars could also be many other things also as his turned fifth of cource..but let' s stick to what you said regarding turned 4th and 10th

This mars has dignity from term, though in his detriment, is placed not in radix 4th but in radix 5th or in his turned 11th (5 degrees rule again, since mars= 24*54 libra on spica!!!!, while 5th cusp is on 28*41 libra),is in venus domicile and Saturn's exaltation and sun's fall.

So the italian mob , or his parents, as the criminals, are totally depended on his job=venus which by the way is in his domicile-jupiter's , actually they are essentially debilitated, though they have dignity from term...but also accidentally strengthened by spica.

So as it seems according to your thinking, these criminals are inside his turned 11th and not in his turned 10th as you also said, so let's say among his friends...if they are not his parents, or his father, as his 4th turned as you said... and they codependent on his descent job=venus and his pocket=saturn, or his communication, his 3rd of course to make a living.

well i am astonished if this guy has indeed so much power upon the italian mob, which by the way doesn't seem quite powerful...although strengthened by spica

So mayby he actually does Money laundering for the italian mob and this venus over there as natural sig for clothes, fabrics ...etc could be related

Aria Venue said:

Dear kalinka
......so spooking hidden in the shadows(since cannot be seen as being in total proximity to the sun)

which surprisingly has not yet responded to this thread so far

to tell us...what is the main reason that initiated her to ask this vague question

...and i am saying vague cause clearly according to her sayings :
"I feel like there’s something unusual in this chart
but I can’t put my finger on it, can someone tell me if anything stands out?
.....So I’m Mercury and he is Jupiter and we don’t aspect so.. not mafia.
But I’m cazimi in the 5th, as if I’m aware of and protected from something...."

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Indeed - certainly "what stands out" is it IS a very strange question
we need reassurance from Querent that mafia has not caused any strife to her
and she has seen one soap opera episode too many

whether traditonal or natural significator or ruler...what I wanted to say is: criminals, mafia, the 8th house are related to scorpio, which planet rulers are mars and pluto(modern ruler).
Mercury and Venus are in DISREGARD aka AVERSION
NOT IN ASPECT
According to Frawley receptions do work without aspects.
I'm not seeing this mars as strong as well. Mars doesn't seem to have the dominant role in his life. She asked about A CONNECTION. So Mars could be only one person (of the mob) or also a group of person.I am not knowledgeable about the "italian mafia" but I think there is more than only one "mafia" .You're talking about co-dependency. I would only seeing this between saturn (his pocket)and mars because of the mutual reception. Let's say Mars could be a group of person due to his 11th ,5th or 4th house. There is a connection and sometimes he does laundering money for or with them .And as you said Mars is very interested in Venus. Maybe these activities are due to his job. It would be interesting to know which real intentions the querent did have when she cast that chart. If she did already asked him about that mafia matter and why this question about another woman....

JUPITERASC said:

Indeed - certainly "what stands out" is it IS a very strange question
we need reassurance from Querent that mafia has not caused any strife to her
and she has seen one soap opera episode too many

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Jupitersac, if you live in the south of Italy it is not unusual to be witness to or meet up with shocking situations that are mafia related. You don't need to watch TV. I am confident the querent did see some things that made her question it.

ElenaJ said:

Jupitersac, if you live in the south of Italy it is not unusual to be witness to
or meet up with shocking situations that are mafia related.
You don't need to watch TV.
I am confident the querent did see some things that made her question it.

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mafia is active in US also
and mafia watches soap operas as well
however
only OP can say with authority what OP has witnessed
so would be excellent if OP would respond with an update