Alcohol and Asteroids

waybread, I get it totally, and am not in any way saying that alcohol abuse is good/useful/necessary. My best friend's father - while we were in primary school - was the town's butcher and drank to excess, especially on Saturdays. Alcohol and sharp knives do not mix, and this man terrorized his wife & kids until he ploughed his car into a tree when he was in his mid 40's. My friend still has a chipped tooth where she got between her father's gun and her mother when she was around 10. So I have seen alcohol's damage to the people around the alcoholic.

For me - and I suspect my son also - alcohol abuse gave me some time to grow up, to get to a stage in life when I felt strong enough (and desperate enough, too) to look at what I'd been running from. Everyone who drinks too much has that option. I had a couple of female friends who were doing the same thing, so in some ways we validated one another's behaviour. Both my sons have Moon in Pisces, so whilst I was always with them while they were growing up, I wasn't actually with them. I was always in a kind of Neptunian fog, wishing I was anywhere but there.

waybread said:

But I think the real test is for the heavy drinker to consider the impact of his/her habit [addiction in many cases] on other people.

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And that was the turning point for me. At the time I gave up it was because I loved my kids more than that, but I can now see that giving up the behaviour was more a demonstration of self-love, something addicts have great difficulty with. These days I only have maybe 2-3 glasses of white wine per year, and I don't particularly enjoy it. I no longer feel that I need it.

I believe that - for myself at least - I had to `go there' in order to access certain parts of myself which I previously had not known existed. Before my drinking days I was an opinionated, arrogant little sh*t, and I needed to `unravel' before I could put myself back together again. All addicts have that option, but many just don't acknowledge or recognise that they have options.

Thanks, R4ven. Congratulations for reaching this stage in your journey!

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Interesting thread.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have Sun/Neptune conjunct in Libra, conjunct Mercury. Dionysus squares my Mercury/Neptune conjunction in Libra, although Bacchus, conjunct Pluto, sextiles it; (the asteroids are exactly semi sextile in my chart). [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]My first husband was an alcoholic.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]40 years later I had a relationship with another. Strange, I never saw the truth in either case initially, although that could be the Neptune in my chart. I've never drunk to excess, except within, and recovering from, that last relationship, when curiously, Bacchus progressed to conjunct Chiron in Libra in the 4th. in my chart.[/FONT]

A note on RaVen's comment here; I used that natal Bacchus/Pluto in order to reach the depths of my pain also, so for a while, I think I used alcohol as a tool too.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He had Dionysus in Leo in the 12th, exactly conjunct Saturn. Saturn/Pluto conjunct were conjunct Asc. His Bacchus in Sagittarius squared his Sun/Venus conjunction in Virgo from the 5t.h.. Mercury/Neptune were tightly conjunct in Libra in the 3rd; He lied incredibly convincingly, to himself as well as others, and denied his addiction even though it damaged him, and his relationships; he's now on his 4th marriage. Sober, he was a charming, beautiful man. Drunk he was cruel, ugly, abusive. He now has progressed Mercury conjunct natal Chiron in Scorpio, which would have been closing a year ago when our relationship ended. That could indicate an opportunity for him to address his drink related issues.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the progressed composite of our relationship at that time Bacchus/Sun/Venus were conjunct in the same degree of Sagittarius, while Dionysus in Leo squared Chiron in Scorpio, again, exactly. It seems a perfect portrait of a failed relationship, when the drink, lies, illusions and delusions hit home, and I'm talking of us both here.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Neptune does seem to feature in links with these two asteroids in the lives of those who have alcohol related problems through themselves or others; I've been checking out a few people I know and so far Neptune and the asteroids figure clearly. My daughter has Gemini Sun opposition Neptune, with Bacchus conjunct Jupiter in Pisces in the 6th, conjunct her Desc. Her partner is alcoholic and their relationship is failing. She herself, within this relationship, is drinking to excess. Her Leo Moon conjuncts Dionysus across the 11th/12th houses, and her natal Venus/Chiron conjunction in the 8th opposes Uranus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A thought occurred to me. Dionysus and Bacchus are two faces of the same god, Roman and Greek; maybe within this fact of dualism lies the seemingly Neptunian links; does one reach for the ideal through one, and failing to find it, seek refuge through the other?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All gods have positive assets, so could the energy of these asteroids be positively harnessed through creative work, just as the energy of Neptune can be so used constructively?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Do any of you know the poem “The Book Of Lambspring”, 1625, by Nicholas Barnaud Delphinas, from which Esther Harding quotes in the preface of her wonderful book, “Psychic Energy”, [/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Be warned and understand truly[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]That two fishes are swimming in our sea,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The vastness of which no man can describe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover the Sages say[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]That the two fish are only one, not two;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They are two, and nevertheless, they are one.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Somehow, that expressed a bit of what I have unskillfully expressed.[/FONT]

ImNotThere9 said:

http://www.astrosoftware.com/Iris.htm


This may be of some interest.

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Why the sexist quote from Nietsche in your by-line?

Beautiful post, Lia!

I think there are positive expressions for Bacchus & Dionysus, just as there is for Neptune. Anciently these gods inspired ecstatic rites. The expression "Dionysian" vs. "Appolonian" refers to an ecstatic spiritual and perhaps sensual life vs. an outlook of reason and the mind. But they had flip sides, as well. The Bacchantes (maenads) were women who worked themselves into a fever pitch while under the influence, and reportedly committed atrocities while in this state.

I guess the astrological truism in your post, also, is that which we fail to own within ourselves, we experience in (and possibly project onto) others. This is a hard pill to swallow for anyone who has lived with the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde of alcoholism in a spouse/partner. Maybe the lesson is just to put our feet down and end a relationship. Maybe it is to acknowledge our own capacity for besotted, beastly behaviour such that we cut the alcoholic a little slack. Not a great choice, either way if the partner is abusive while drunk. Al Anon suggests that the resolution comes through one's unconditional love of the alcoholic; which is a tough sell.

Thanks for the poem: it looks very much like the two fish of Pisces.

waybread said:

Thanks for the insights, Jerry and air goddess. I think this topic does merit more investigation.

Jerry, I will take exception to your quote, though. If you have never lived with a violent or verbally abusive alcoholic, it might be easy to post something like this. I have never in my life drunk as much as the family members whose information I posted. With the first one, I put myself into Al-Anon for several years, after my ego couldn't take another drunken outburst, with all of this uncontrollable anger targeted at me. [This isn't Alcoholics Anonymous aka AA, but the one for family members of alcoholics.] Alcoholism seriously messes up the lives of both the alcoholic and people who live in its shadlow. The second family member got several hematomas near the end of her life, caused by falling and hitting her head while drunk. The family did not ask for an autopsy, but I firmly believe alcohol contributed to her relatively early death.

Also, I worked for universities for many years, sometimes in a student advisory capacity. I saw bright students scrub out because of binge drinking. Date rape, also, has long occurred under circumstances where predators try to get a girl drunk--or wait till she does so on her own--before making their moves when she is too drunk to resist--if not actually already passed out. As you know, second hand.

I drink my share. But alcoholism is not a disease to trivialize.

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I have ast. 2063 at 29 degrees Sag. Conjunt Neptune in the 12Th house.Sextile Pluto. Ast. 3761 conjunct Taurus Chiron in the 5th house trine my Cap Sun. And my parents decided to give me the middle name Denise after Dionysus (only they had no clue about it) I was heavily drinking way before I found out any of this out...smh!

On my natal chart, Neptune in Sag. - 6th house, which happens to be my Dad's sun sign (Dec. 17th, year 1946 his B-day). He has a history of alcohol abuse and he passed this onto my brother (his B-day next Sat., he turn 35). Should I examine his and my father's natal charts, esp. the placement of Neptune or the asteroids if I'm able to find them? Alcoholism is a serious matter, thankfully I don't have drinking problems and I can enjoy a beer or wine on occasion, not to escape or get a buzz.

Neptune in hard aspect to one or more personal planets shows up a lot in the charts of alcoholics. But some people with such aspects are not alcoholics, and some alcoholics do not have them, so it's hard to make a hard-and-fast rule. Part of the reason is that problem drinkers don't seem to over-indulge for the same reasons, or have the same circumstances. Keep in mind that real alcoholism is an addiction, and as such, is more of an illness than a moral failing.

Have you participated in Al-Anon? (Not AA, but the sister organization for family members of alcoholics.)