The difference between men and women

loveastrology said:

I assume you have posted those statistics for any males in the forum since obviously us females can't be expected to wrap our feeble minds around these super complicated factoids given that we're such inferior logical thinkers! Oh gee my girl brain hurts now from writing the word logical!

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I never said that women were such inferior logical thinkers. I said that in general men tend to be better logical thinkers.

I also never said that females were feeble minded. In general men tend to have certain advantages intellectually over women, but just the opposite is true as well. As I said women tend to have stronger intuitive faculties than men and stronger abilities with things like empathy as well. I also said in this thread that women tend to make better astrologers than men, for those very reasons. Why aren't you up in arms for over that?

To clarify: I do NOT think the rational mind is the only type of intelligence that exists. I value the intuitive faculties just as highly in regards to a persons intelligence and in that regard women are stronger than men in general. As I said earlier, I think men have certain strengths over women and vice versa. I do NOT think that men are more intelligent.

Seriously though, I just had to laugh when I saw that Fox news is your source. Ashira posted information from actual academic sources, and you post your's from a media source, and of all media sources, the most absurd, make believe "news" source of all, Fox news! why not just source perezhilton.com, or a disney movie?

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The article cited a study published by the US department of Justice.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

If you want to sit there on your high, 18th century horse, and tell women what happens to them to make yourself feel better, and then profess your intellectual superiority to them, go ahead. Don't expect to get anywhere with that. Fortunately for women, and unfortunately for you, we're not living in the 1700's anymore, and nobody cares.
I'm not even going to bother posting anything else here. This is too stupid to even debate about anyway.

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OK....

The problem is that I never said that men are superior intellectually. I said that in general men to be stronger intellectually in certain ways, just as women are stronger intellectually in certain ways.

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Ram, I will address your points one by one.

1. Many studies show that men and women think differently. The fact that they think differently or have different mental abilities such as men being better at spatial and mechanical reasoning does not mean that women are 'less logical'.

2. I have not replied to your point that women, generally, are better at raising children or more intuitive. You think that this means I am lacking in objectivity. I am a trained lawyer (incidentally a very logical profession) and so I may be lapsing into replying in the way that I have been trained to do. When one side submits a claim form the defence that is filed in reply must address each point otherwise the defendant is taken to have agreed to the points raised. I did not address those points you raised because I did not disagree with them and I didn't have anything to say about them that would add to the conversation.

Personally I think intuition is the ability to come to conclusions without knowing how we have reached those conclusions, due to things we know subconsciously, I wouldn't want to say whether women reach conclusions quickly without analysing the reasons for knowing those things more than men. I saw a TV programme last week featuring the research of Professor Daniel Kahneman which showed how people, male and female, make decisions intuitively.

I think women have evolved looking after children, so have evolved skills and abilities to perform this role.

3. It is completely relevant to discuss female and male children. Females do better than males at school, generally speaking, right up to the age when they are bullied into submission and not speaking up.

4. On the issue of whether men take more risks than women. If you prefer that I don't use the word prone I will substitute it for 'tend to'. The men I am surrounded by are very cautious, that has influenced my view.

5. You state that men take more risks due to testosterone. You also state that not knowing this is due to ignorance or not being able to admit to any weakness on the part of women.

I have heard that testosterone contributes to a higher sex drive, more aggression, acne, greater muscle mass and less chance of getting osteoporosis. I have not heard that testosterone contributes to greater risk taking. So if it does then that is ignorance on my part.

Women are, generally, physically smaller than men and not as physically strong as men. I do not dispute this generalisation. However having met many tall, strong women, and many small, not particularly physically strong men I don't consider the generalisation to be particularly relevant to everyday life.

And by the way did you know that there are studies showing that men's testosterone levels decrease when they become fathers and when they get into relationships. That is something I have just learned from wikipedia.

[edited to delete quoted attacks - Moderator]

Wow. This conversation moves along quickly. I'm afraid I'm a little behind on the conversation, but please humor me while I catch up to your posts. First off, I've noticed that people have been talking about my age quite a bit. Some people have been saying that I need to spend time as a humanitarian volunteer in order to understand the human emotion known as "compassion." I assure you all, I am entirely aware of the existence of rape, pedophilia, and sex trafficking without diverting time away from trying to get into my first choice of college.

Also, you all seem to be repeating the same back-and-forth with which gender is more intuitive and which gender is more intellectual. Do you imbecils know nothing about astrology? Whatever just happens to be hanging or not hanging between your legs won't magically make you more or less intellectual/intuitive. That's cultural programming(for lack of knowing the official term) at work. An Aquarius will always be an Aquarius, and a Cancer will always be a Cancer, regardless of their gender. I'm an incredibly intelligent individual with the intuitive capabilities of a tree stump, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my gender. It's because I don't have a single water planet in my birth chart. But if I were a girl... THEN I would be an incredibly intelligent individual with the intuitive capabilities of a tree stump. Because I still wouldn't have a single water planet in my chart.


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Good posts, Juno!

Actually development of spatial abilities in children is aparently linked to how much outdoor time and free play they get. Parents tend to restrict girls' mobility more than boys, so girls have less opportunity to develop spatial skills.

Also, very few workers in today's world actually need physical strength to accomplish their work.

To pick up on one of Jesse's points.... you should be able to get some measure of intelligence off a natal chart. It's non-obvious-- I don't know how many people would have guessed Einstein's genius from looking at his horoscope, so you have to delve into horoscopes a bit.

You cannot tell whether a chart belongs to a male or female without supplementary information.

[deleted response to personal attacks - Moderator]

Stop the attacks, to All

All,

Please stop the personal attacks on each other. I have edited out the personal attacks I saw at the end of the thread by request, and will continue to monitor this thread going forward. To avoid personal attacks focus on the PROBLEM not the PERSON. "To your point about men and women, I disagree because..." is a discussion, while "In regard to your stupid point out of your complete ignorance of the situation..." is an attack. Focus on the problem and there won't be any more moderator issues.

Problem-focused,

Tim

To pick up on one of Jesse's points.... you should be able to get some measure of intelligence off a natal chart. It's non-obvious-- I don't know how many people would have guessed Einstein's genius from looking at his horoscope, so you have to delve into horoscopes a bit.

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I haven't looked at Einstein's birth chart in a while, but I remember that he was a Pisces sun with Sagitarrius moon - a combination shared with several other scientists throughout history. I used to have a list of them, but I can't find it. But back to Einstein. As with all Pisces, Einstein was by no means the normal form of "intelligent." He developed his well known Theory of Relativity and helped Openheimer make the first atomic bomb, but never learned how to tie his shoes or drive a car. He lived on an entirely different plane of reality than the rest of us, and accomplished feats of abstract scientific genius that few others throughout history have ever come close to. I'm planning on starting a thread about his birth chart, if anyone would like to discuss it later. I won't have time to do it right now, but I will in the next few days. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas on what it was in his chart that made Abstract Al such an advanced, albeit unorthodox thinker.

HEY!!! This thread is for arguing about genitalia variations, not Albert Einstein! Wait until I get a chance to set up that thread about him, or just start it yourself. In the meantime, let's get back to venting our rage at each other's genders, okay?

I'm planning on starting a thread about his birth chart, if anyone would like to discuss it later. I won't have time to do it right now, but I will in the next few days. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas on what it was in his chart that made Abstract Al such an advanced, albeit unorthodox thinker.

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This was in the last post before you posted, so....

Jesse Booth said:

Wow. This conversation moves along quickly. I'm afraid I'm a little behind on the conversation, but please humor me while I catch up to your posts. First off, I've noticed that people have been talking about my age quite a bit. Some people have been saying that I need to spend time as a humanitarian volunteer in order to understand the human emotion known as "compassion." I assure you all, I am entirely aware of the existence of rape, pedophilia, and sex trafficking without diverting time away from trying to get into my first choice of college.

Also, you all seem to be repeating the same back-and-forth with which gender is more intuitive and which gender is more intellectual. Do you imbecils know nothing about astrology? Whatever just happens to be hanging or not hanging between your legs won't magically make you more or less intellectual/intuitive. That's cultural programming(for lack of knowing the official term) at work. An Aquarius will always be an Aquarius, and a Cancer will always be a Cancer, regardless of their gender. I'm an incredibly intelligent individual with the intuitive capabilities of a tree stump, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my gender. It's because I don't have a single water planet in my birth chart. But if I were a girl... THEN I would be an incredibly intelligent individual with the intuitive capabilities of a tree stump. Because I still wouldn't have a single water planet in my chart.


[deleted off-topic comments - Moderator]

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Jesse,

I agree with you (even though you seem to have called me an imbecile - I don't agree with that point!)

Age doesn't necessarily have anything to do with knowing things. Some teenagers are self-absorbed and not very sensible but others, or even the same ones, still know plenty about the world and human nature, perhaps they are more concerned about those things than older people (a huge generalisation I know, that might not contribute to this conversation) since I seem to remember being very sincere and concerned about society when I was a teenager. When I was 16 I knew a lot about astrology, having been told about it by my mum since I was a child, and when I was 18 my main focus in life was on how to make a better world and society. Don't be prejudiced and think that teenagers don't know anything about history, human nature or the pressing issues of the day.

Good for you for standing up for yourself Jesse!

I also agree, this is an astrology website, for goodness' sake. Let's talk about astrology!

On the issue of whether men take more risks than women - a man whose main influence is Aries or Sagittarius will tend to take more risks than a man whose main influence is Capricorn, Virgo or Cancer, but they are both men, and a woman who is influenced by Aries or Sagittarius will probably take more risks than that Capricorn-Virgo-Cancerian man.

On the issue of whether men are more rational than women (I think this is what The Ram is saying) and women are more intuitive. I think both men and women can be rational or intuitive, and the charts that were influencing them when they were born will have a lot to do with that. Air signs will be rational, maddeningly so sometimes, whether they are male or female. And while Jesse said it's water signs that are intuitive, & I'd agree with that, I'd also say that fire signs are intuitive in one sense of the word, in that they tend to state sweeping conclusions or reach decisions without thinking through each step logically, not that those conclusions and decisions are wrong, just that, in my experience, they tend to jump straight to that stage. Similarly water signs, of which I am one, tend to know things but not be able to put it into words how they know that.

The Ram said:

In general they are and that is the consensus viewpoint.

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I don't agree that men are generally more rational and women are generally more intuitive. I think it depends on which sign you are born under. I'm born under a water sign my mum was born under an air sign and she is so rational that sometimes we have trouble communicating with each other (although I got the air sign moon to balance things).

The best barometer for logical thinking would be sciences and mathematics. Women have been pursuing educations for awhile now. How many have won fields medals or nobel prizes?

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Plenty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Nobel_laureates and if there are more male than female winners then that could be explained by discrimination.

Then you're arguing that women are the superior sex mentally, you think they're better at raising children and are more intuitive, you think they're as logical. I find that the typical feminist generally are so angry about their gender being called inferior for so long that they actually try to argue that their gender is superior as a response. Which is definitely not very rational.

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Ram, I'm finding it very hard to continue this debate with you, since you are accusing me of saying things that I have never said. That's just projection. I do not think that women are the superior sex mentally. I think both genders have equal abilities mentally, although within each gender there are outstanding thinkers and those with less ability.

I did previously say that I did not disagree with your comment that women are more intuitive, but having thought about it more I think it depends on the planets or elements one is influenced by in the birth chart. Some signs are more intuitive than others.

Are logic and intuition 2 opposing abilities? Is it necessary to be irrational in order to be intuitive? Perhaps they are simply 2 completely different abilities. Perhaps both genders can access and successfully use logic when they have to and when they focus on being logical. Perhaps, and I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but perhaps it is an idea that intuition is a separate ability, and perhaps women, due to some cause that I am unaware of (maybe it's oestrogen/testosterone) are able to access intuition more easily than men, just as men are fortunate enough to be able to build more muscle than women. Perhaps this may even be a hinderance to women in that they sometimes have to "turn off" their intuitive knowledge when they're trying to justify how they reached their conclusions logically. But this is pure speculation. I have no evidence for this suggestion. I'm more convinced by the idea that it has something to do with the influence of different astrological signs.

Whats good for the goose has to be good for the gander Juno. If you're going to apply that logic to childcare then it has to apply to other jobs as well. Law for instance and other professions, men have evolved to perform these roles as well, while women have not.

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Evolution works by us getting our abilities from both our mother and our father. Men carry within them the genes that will lead to future female descendants being good mothers and women carry within them the genes for their future male descendants to make good fathers. What I meant by saying that women have evolved looking after children is that throughout history women have looked after children and the children that survived will have been those (in at least some cases) who had good parents, therefore they have the good parenting genes within them. Perhaps survival also requires good fathers.

In the past women have had a lot of children, so that has taken up their time. Nowadays thanks to birth control, worries about overpopulation (& people have predicted that soon we won't have enough water to grow all the food we need) and the fact that we have better healthcare so more babies survive to adulthood people are having fewer children. That means that women spend less of their lives looking after children. They have more time on their hands. Surely we can use their skills and abilities to contribute to society.

Why would such a small, specific sample size of men influence your opinion on a whole gender? There are over 3 billion men on the planet.

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My point was that not all men are risk takers. Your opinion seemed to be similarly based on the men you know. And also your opinion of feminists seems to be based on a very small sample of the ones you have met/seen.

And while Jesse said it's water signs that are intuitive, & I'd agree with that, I'd also say that fire signs are intuitive in one sense of the word, in that they tend to state sweeping conclusions or reach decisions without thinking through each step logically, not that those conclusions and decisions are wrong, just that, in my experience, they tend to jump straight to that stage. Similarly water signs, of which I am one, tend to know things but not be able to put it into words how they know that.

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My elements are weighted as follows(I count the sun and moon twice because of their strength):

Fire: 2
Earth: 5(2x Virgo Moon)
Air: 5(2x Aquarius Sun)
Water: 0

Still pretty weak on intuition, aren't I?

WeCareALot said:

I'm replying to this thread mostly to bump it up, haha...

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I concur....