Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

waybread

Well-known member
Bunraku, I am not sure which horoscopes you mean. With Vettius Valens, it seems that some of the horoscopes were for individuals before his time.

A historian of math and astronomy at Brown, Otto Neugebauer, and his associates worked out all of the horoscopes from ancient times that they could locate. Some of these were from archaeological finds, not the extant astrological textbooks. Nearly all of these horoscopes could be dated to particular dates and even times, based on the planetary positions that they worked out.

I'd have to go back and re-read their monograph, but I recall they found use of Egyptian words for planets and houses. Mercury was understood as Thoth, the Ibis-headed scribe god.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Bunraku, if you are interested in the different "non-conforming" astrologies practiced in the past, it seems clear that our horoscopic astrology was only one version. The others, perhaps because they were more magical or secretive, did not show up in our principal sources on how to read a horoscope.

Speaking of Valens, as a professional astrologer who read horoscopes for clients, he was critical of the alternative mystical traditions of his day, probably because, whatever spiritual value they might have had, he found them worthless for actual horoscope interpretation.

Among these alternative pre-Enlightenment astrologies:

1. Kabbalah (Qabbalah, various spellings)

2. alchemy

3. Egyptian magic (some of it was pretty gruesome black magic)

4. Hermeticism (cf. Hermes Trismegistus, with Hermes the Greek name for Mercury.)

5. Mithraism

This was a secret religion or cult dedicated to a god named Mithras, practiced extensively in the Roman empire during the early centuries CE. Mithraism left no written records but there is tons of archaeological evidence. The initiates were classified according to the planets, with Mercury being the first level of initiation, and Saturn being the highest-- the level of "the father".

The Mercury level was symbolized by the raven, the beaker, and the god Mercury's serpent staff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

"Mithras is the guide of souls which he leads from the earthly life into which they had fallen back up to the light from which they issued ... It was not only from the religions and the wisdom of Orientals and Egyptians, even less from Christianity, that the notion that life on earth was merely a transition to a higher life was derived by the Romans. Their own anguish and the awareness of senescence made it plain enough that earthly existence was all hardship and bitterness. Mithras-worship became one, and perhaps the most significant, of the religions of redemption in declining paganism.[150]"

5. theurgy

This one pretty much cuts across the board, including professional horoscopic astrologers. The belief was that through a series of rituals and spiritual exercises, the astrologer could literally become the god. Versus praying for divine guidance in chart-reading, the astrologer supposedly became the god, or merged with him. A mortal astrologer could make mistakes in chart-reading, but when unified with a god, he was far-seeing. Invoking Hermes (Mercury, Thoth) made sense to the more magical astrologers.)

This about the process from Iamblichus (b. 245 CE,) a proponent of astrology and a student of Porphyry:
http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm

In sec. 9, he seems to be saying that the astrologer should look for "the lord of the house" in question, and then merge with that god or spirit. This might or might not be Mercury. In general, though,

"Hermes, the patron of literature, was rightly considered of old to be a god common to all the priests and the one presiding over the genuine learning relating to the gods, one and the same among all. Hence our predecessors were wont to ascribe to him their discoveries in wisdom and to name all their respective works Books of Hermes."

The translator notes of Hermes/Thoth, "He was also the revealer of the divine will to men." Pretty potent stuff for an astrologer predicting someone's future.

Of course, societies of the past who practiced horoscopic astrology also had other sorts of star-lore and beliefs about the heavens that I wouldn't call "astrology" per se, but rather, cultural astronomy.

But I want to make the point that the planetary god Mercury, notably as the Greek Hermes, Egyptian Thoth or a composite god Hermanubis, was far more important in traditional esoteric astrology than simply calling him "the ruler of traditional astrology" lets on.

Mercury was kind of the keeper of the keys.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Bunraku, if you are interested in the different "non-conforming" astrologies practiced in the past, it seems clear that our horoscopic astrology was only one version. The others, perhaps because they were more magical or secretive, did not show up in our principal sources on how to read a horoscope.

Speaking of Valens, as a professional astrologer who read horoscopes for clients, he was critical of the alternative mystical traditions of his day, probably because, whatever spiritual value they might have had, he found them worthless for actual horoscope interpretation.

Among these alternative pre-Enlightenment astrologies:

1. Kabbalah (Qabbalah, various spellings)

2. alchemy

3. Egyptian magic (some of it was pretty gruesome black magic)

4. Hermeticism (cf. Hermes Trismegistus, with Hermes the Greek name for Mercury.)

5. Mithraism

This was a secret religion or cult dedicated to a god named Mithras, practiced extensively in the Roman empire during the early centuries CE. Mithraism left no written records but there is tons of archaeological evidence. The initiates were classified according to the planets, with Mercury being the first level of initiation, and Saturn being the highest-- the level of "the father".

The Mercury level was symbolized by the raven, the beaker, and the god Mercury's serpent staff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

"Mithras is the guide of souls which he leads from the earthly life into which they had fallen back up to the light from which they issued ... It was not only from the religions and the wisdom of Orientals and Egyptians, even less from Christianity, that the notion that life on earth was merely a transition to a higher life was derived by the Romans. Their own anguish and the awareness of senescence made it plain enough that earthly existence was all hardship and bitterness. Mithras-worship became one, and perhaps the most significant, of the religions of redemption in declining paganism.[150]"

5. theurgy

This one pretty much cuts across the board, including professional horoscopic astrologers. The belief was that through a series of rituals and spiritual exercises, the astrologer could literally become the god. Versus praying for divine guidance in chart-reading, the astrologer supposedly became the god, or merged with him. A mortal astrologer could make mistakes in chart-reading, but when unified with a god, he was far-seeing. Invoking Hermes (Mercury, Thoth) made sense to the more magical astrologers.)

This about the process from Iamblichus (b. 245 CE,) a proponent of astrology and a student of Porphyry:
http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm

In sec. 9, he seems to be saying that the astrologer should look for "the lord of the house" in question, and then merge with that god or spirit. This might or might not be Mercury. In general, though,

"Hermes, the patron of literature, was rightly considered of old to be a god common to all the priests and the one presiding over the genuine learning relating to the gods, one and the same among all. Hence our predecessors were wont to ascribe to him their discoveries in wisdom and to name all their respective works Books of Hermes."


Bunraku, I am not sure which horoscopes you mean. With Vettius Valens, it seems that some of the horoscopes were for individuals before his time.

A historian of math and astronomy at Brown, Otto Neugebauer, and his associates worked out all of the horoscopes from ancient times that they could locate. Some of these were from archaeological finds, not the extant astrological textbooks. Nearly all of these horoscopes could be dated to particular dates and even times, based on the planetary positions that they worked out.

I'd have to go back and re-read their monograph, but I recall they found use of Egyptian words for planets and houses. Mercury was understood as Thoth, the Ibis-headed scribe god.
The translator notes of Hermes/Thoth, "He was also the revealer of the divine will to men." Pretty potent stuff for an astrologer predicting someone's future.

cl-assicalart-memes-thceboolcoonyclassiealartmemes-hey-thoth-arent-you-the-god-37828907.png




Of course, societies of the past who practiced horoscopic astrology also had other sorts of star-lore and beliefs about the heavens that I wouldn't call "astrology" per se, but rather, cultural astronomy.

But I want to make the point
that the planetary god Mercury, notably

as the Greek Hermes, Egyptian Thoth

or a composite god Hermanubis, was

far more important in traditional esoteric astrology

than simply calling him "the ruler of traditional astrology" lets on.
Mercury was kind of the keeper of the keys.
INFOGRAPHICS ON THOTH aka MERCURY et al :smile:

34a1d608b9fc68603051d8d6a60d5e1e.jpg





f64d591182b6a6d899cfb98730a67379.jpg




ffdcf8d1ef81d22e34e1df00ad9d9a31.jpg
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Those hundreds of horoscopes...many of them preceded him & his time...

If you refer to VETTIUS VALENS two thousand year old ANTHOLOGY :smile:
it is now translated from the original Ancient Greek
by Professor Mark T. Riley of CSU
FREE to read IN ENGLISH online at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf


Vettius Valens, Greek astrologer from Antioch
wrote between 152 ce and 162 the Anthologies
an extant nine-book treatise on astrology
preserving the only major collection of Greek horoscopes c.130 outside the papyri
it was heavily used in the Middle Ages


.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Tehuti in Egypt, later Thoth and Hermes, finally Greco/roman mercury-all referring to the same god-was considered the inventor of astronomy/astrology in the ancient egypto/Greco/roman world; Mesopotamia had a different god as inventor, as did ancient India and ancient china.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Tehuti in Egypt, later Thoth and Hermes, finally Greco/roman mercury-all referring to the same god-was considered the inventor of astronomy/astrology in the ancient egypto/Greco/roman world; Mesopotamia had a different god as inventor, as did ancient India and ancient china.

Greco-Romans had a Muse who specifically inspired advancements in astrology and astronomy. She was a goddess, daughter of Zeus/Jupiter and the goddess of memory, Mnemosyne, daughter of Ouranos/Caelus. In Greek, her name was Ourania, in Latin, it was Urania, meaning "Goddess of the Heavens" Why is she completely ignored as the ruler of astrology? In ancient Egypt, her name was Nuit.

Hermes/Mercury was generslly known as "messenger of the gods", NOT specifically related to astrology.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Uranus (150 CE).... catalogue Uranus...

Just to keep things as traditional as possible here....
let's do that
because
this thread IS on our traditional board :smile:
and so


***Please Read Before Posting On This Board***
This is the Traditional Astrology forum.
Out of all the different boards in this forum, this one is
the home for traditional astrologers.

It was created
so that traditional astrologers

can discuss traditional astrology with each other
without having to justify it
to non-traditionalists
or
be interrupted
by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives.


refer to our traditional board rules :smile:
i.e.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=120411


If you are not a traditional astrologer, you are welcome as a guest.
Good guests respect the rules of the house.
In this house, the main rule is that all posts must stick to traditional astrology only.
Please read the rest of this and make sure that everything you post here
is strictly traditional.
If your post is not traditional, it belongs on one of our other boards, not here.



...The planet Uranus...
....Also, Uranus was the planet...

...Uranus....
...and assigned Uranus...

.
Newbies are advised to ***Please Read Before Posting On This Board***


at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=120411


FAO NEWBIES :smile:

This is the Traditional Astrology forum.

Out of all the different boards in this forum, this one is
the home for traditional astrologers.
It was created
so that traditional astrologers
can discuss traditional astrology
with each other
without having to justify it
to non-traditionalists
or
be interrupted
by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives.


The assignment of Mercury (Greek Hermes) to astrology is also ancient.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html As I mentioned earlier, this is probably because he took over the functions earlier Mesopotamian scribe gods in ancient Greece. In ancient Mesopotamia, scribes and priests presided over observing and recording the positions of heavenly bodies. Also, as the ruler of our mental faculties, Hermes was credited with inventing various branches of learning, including astrology.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html


Ancient texts support MERCURY ruling astrology.
According to traditional astrology it's Mercurius
also
TRADITIONALLY
Only THE SEVEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL PLANETS can '..rule..' anything
by definition :smile:

.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
How does a planet "ruling" astrology affect reading an astrology chart? Does Mercury have special status because it "rules" astrology?

No.
This discussion is only about historical beliefs regarding alleged “rulerships” according to ancient and medieval systems of belief; whether or not mercury “rules” astrology has no bearing whatsoever upon our astrological delineation of that planet in any given chart. Even in a horary question about astrology or about an astrologer, lord of the sign on the 9th house would be the quesited significator, whether that would be mercury or Saturn or any other planet; mercury per se would not be singled out to represent astrology in all cases.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No.
This discussion is only about historical beliefs regarding alleged “...rulerships...” according to ancient and medieval systems of belief; whether or not mercury “...rules...” astrology has no bearing whatsoever upon our astrological delineation of that planet in any given chart. Even in a horary question about astrology or about an astrologer, lord of the sign on the 9th house would be the quesited significator, whether that would be mercury or Saturn or any other planet; mercury per se would not be singled out to represent astrology in all cases.

The assignment of Mercury (Greek Hermes) to astrology is also ancient.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html As I mentioned earlier, this is probably because he took over the functions earlier Mesopotamian scribe gods in ancient Greece. In ancient Mesopotamia, scribes and priests presided over observing and recording the positions of heavenly bodies. Also, as the ruler of our mental faculties, Hermes was credited with inventing various branches of learning, including astrology.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html
i.e.
Ancient texts support MERCURY ruling astrology.
According to traditional astrology it's Mercurius
also
STRICTLY TRADITIONALLY
Only THE SEVEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL PLANETS can '..rule..' anything
by definition :smile:



.
 

david starling

Well-known member
i.e.
Ancient texts support MERCURY ruling astrology.
According to traditional astrology it's Mercurius
also
STRICTLY TRADITIONALLY
Only THE SEVEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL PLANETS can '..rule..' anything
by definition :smile:



.

HOW does Mercury "rule" astrology? What's the definition of "rule" in this case?

Mercury is known to rule both Gemini and Virgo, only 2 signs out of 12. How can this type of limited planetary rulership pertain to the entire body of astrological knowledge and practice? It doesn't make logical sense.

Maybe some actual quotations from ancient texts could explain it. Possibly, there's a real distinction made between various meanings of the word "ruler" that have been lost in translation?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Perhaps the term “affinitive” or “most affinitive” would be more appropriate in modern semantics than the word “ruler” in this case.

In specific, actual astrological delineation I have come to favor the word “dispositor” over the word “ruler”, although I still often use the old word “lord” in some cases.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Perhaps the term “...affinitive...” or “...most affinitive...”
would be more appropriate in modern semantics
"...modern..." semantics are clearly not "...ancient..." :smile:

and
because

this thread is strictly traditional

and

"...modern..." semantics are modern
they're a distraction from strictly traditional

than the word “...ruler...” in this case.
the "...ancient..." semantics of the word "...ruler..." are pertinent :smile:

In specific, actual astrological delineation
I have come to favor the word

“dispositor” over the word “ruler”, although
I still often use the old word “lord” in some cases.
 

david starling

Well-known member
"...modern..." semantics are clearly not "...ancient..." :smile:

and
because

this thread is strictly traditional

and

"...modern..." semantics are modern
they're a distraction from strictly traditional


the "...ancient..." semantics of the word "...ruler..." are pertinent :smile:

Can you list at least ONE literal, ancient example where Mercury is clearly defined as "Ruler of Astrology"? All I'm seeing is generalized hearsay. And, you know what is said about generalizations!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Can you list at least ONE literal, ancient example where Mercury is clearly defined as "...Ruler of Astrology..."?
All I'm seeing is generalized hearsay.
And, you know what is said about generalizations!
so you've read my frequent comment
that generalisation is fun but unreliable :smile:


.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Then why do we use English for the Hellenistic and Roman original texts? Isn’t it necessary to explain the ancient concepts in language that we of today can understand? Indeed, do the English translations we follow truly express the real INTENT & MEANING of all of the original Greek and Latin terms and expressions the ancient masters left us? Often several English words can be used to translate a Greek term, and this is even more likely when a Greek technical term is involved.
I am not casting aspersions on the wonderful translations we have available to us, but I do believe that using modern semantics that we of today can understand in order to express those ancient concepts is necessary and certainly does not stray beyond the boundaries of what actually is “traditional”
 

david starling

Well-known member
Then why do we use English for the Hellenistic and Roman original texts? Isn’t it necessary to explain the ancient concepts in language that we of today can understand? Indeed, do the English translations we follow truly express the real INTENT & MEANING of all of the original Greek and Latin terms and expressions the ancient masters left us? Often several English words can be used to translate a Greek term, and this is even more likely when a Greek technical term is involved.
I am not casting aspersions on the wonderful translations we have available to us, but I do believe that using modern semantics that we of today can understand in order to express those ancient concepts is necessary and certainly does not stray beyond the boundaries of what actually is “traditional”

I'm wondering who even revived the notion of a single planet "ruling" all of astrology?

Was it modern-day author in a book ABOUT Traditional Astrology?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Then why do we use English for the Hellenistic and Roman original texts? Isn’t it necessary to explain the ancient concepts in language that we of today can understand? Indeed, do the English translations we follow truly express the real INTENT & MEANING of all of the original Greek and Latin terms and expressions the ancient masters left us? Often several English words can be used to translate a Greek term, and this is even more likely when a Greek technical term is involved.
I am not casting aspersions on the wonderful translations we have available to us, but I do believe that using modern semantics that we of today can understand in order to express those ancient concepts is necessary and certainly does not stray beyond the boundaries of what actually is “..traditional...”
a discussion involving morphing meaning of ancient texts via "...modern..." semantics :smile:
is a distraction

Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight died December 2018
however
the translation by Robert Schmidt - a world renowned classics scholar
of ancient texts
including detailed examples of scholarly ancient semantics
remain available from Project Hindsight at http://www.projecthindsight.com/


.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I'm on solid ancient ground about a goddess who wasn't connected to a planet being the MUSE of astrology. They believed in, and worshipped the Muses, in both Greece and Rome. Ourania/Urania INSPIRED the study and teaching of astrology. She didn't "rule" it.

The Muses were associated with the "most Greek of the gods", Apollo, who ALSO was never named as a sign-ruler. The gods Helios/Sol were the rulers of Leo, even though Apollo was associated with the rising of the Sun, and its movement across the visible sky.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROL

One of the leading Greek words meaning “ruler” is ARCHON, which is translated as …”to be first” and also as… ‘to rule”; the Greeks believed that Thoth was THE FIRST in the science of astrology, ie the ARCHON of astrology; since ARCHON can also be translated into English as “TO RULE”, we can easily see how Thoth (Hermes-mercury) could be construed as the RULER OF ASTROLOGY, rather than the FIRST of astrology(ie, the inventor/discoverer of our science)
 
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