Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

I was reading Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology last night. I think this is one of the best books in Astrology.

In page 515, he says

"Lots were primarily used in the Hellenistic tradition in order to assign additional topics to the signs of the zodiac and the places."

That is same statement as my earlier point, that Lots were additional information, rather than main player in the charts.

Senecar said:

I was reading Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology last night. I think this is one of the best books in Astrology.

In page 515, he says

"Lots were primarily used in the Hellenistic tradition in order to assign additional topics to the signs of the zodiac and the places."

That is same statement as my earlier point, that Lots were additional information, rather than main player in the charts.

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I think you misunderstand what he means by ''additional'' - extra or secondary. Maybe you can ask him. Or just read the following and decide for yourself:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/Carmen-Astrologicum-Dorotheus-Sidon/dp/193330314X

''In his thirteenth book, after his preface and his descriptions of the signs, the King introduces the Lot of Fortune <and its derivation> from the sun, the
moon, and the Ascendant. He considers it the be the greatest, and he mentions it throughout his work, calling it the “Ruling Place.”

His calling the place “ruling” means “powerful,” and the next phrase “the whole can be seen” means that it is controlling'' - Valens 3.14, Riley translation

Important thing to understand is that Lots are not some minor midpoints as they are used in modern (the source of your confusion), but mark whole signs/places with additional and important topics. If the Lot of Fortune and the ruler are angular and configured with operative benefics, one will definitely be a distinguished individual and I am saying this with great certainty that this is not a cookbook delineation.

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall...."

petosiris said:

The scheme I illustrated is so obvious, it needs no esoteric or Egyptian mythological explanation.

The Sun rises, culminates, sets (where it appears to die) and everything is cleared off when it reaches the underworld. This was extensively used in natal and especially in katarchic astrology, where a static approach of using the angular houses to decide the outcome was used (and not applications as in medieval horary).

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Sorry, Petosiris, but scholarship on this point is not so simplistic. Ancient Egyptians were steeped in religious beliefs through which they understood the world. Please put away your modern lenses, in order to understand their cultural astronomies.

Are you familiar with the research of Joanne Conman? http://www.joanneconman.com/ She is an Egyptologist and astrologer, with lots to say about how the ancient Egyptians actually used their decans. I don't agree with everything she's published, notably her unduly harsh criticisms of one of my astro-heroes, Otto Neugebauer.

But she makes the point that the Egyptians did not believe in an"underworld" in the Graeco-Roman sense. It would be correct to talk about Egyptian concepts of the "afterlife." Conman notes that the Egyptians did not envision the sun rotating up and down in a ferris-wheel style. [Consider, here, how the chart angles also function as cardinal directions, with south at the top of the chart.]

Sunset or bodily death of a person, to the Egyptians, was not an end point in a modern sense, but rather the beginning of a different kind of journey that had marked stages, undertaken by boat. Some of these marked stages correspond to early thematic meanings of astrological houses. (A notable one is the first house, sometimes nicknamed "the helm," with Mercury joying in this house. Sometimes ancient Egyptian boats were steered from the bow, or a man would be stationed at the bow as a lookout.

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pr-Sa/Ra-Re.html (Thoth was the Ibis-headed or Ibis-form god assimilated to the Hellenistic Mercury.)

There is a scholarly tradition that the northern constellation Orion was Osiris, in whose hall of judgement the departed were either destroyed or destined for eternity. Conman disputes that the ancient Egyptians made use of constellations, but it is interesting that Neugebauer's demotic horoscopes sometimes call the 4th house (or sign) the dwat (duat,) the Egyptian name for this judgement hall. Of course, the IC is the north point of the sun's journey in the chart.

You are right that houses get their symbolism from the diurnal cycle and this is why I remind you that, the Sun goes through the places (I think it is important to be scrupulous right here), not trough the houses of the planets, which change at a month. It is very confusing that the Hellenistic authors used ''houses'' only for the signs, and referred to the dodekatopos in directional terms as ''places''. Today we refer to signs as ''domiciles'' and to places as ''houses'' which further confuses the matter (as most people do not use the so called ''whole sign houses'' which is really a tautology).

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Patronizing, are we? Frankly, I call them signs and houses. I'm well aware that they were named differently in the Hellenistic sources, giving rise to some confusion.

Waybread, every Egyptian deity is connected to Horus or Ra, they are almost all solar. Leo is thought barren by a few authors. Also, Leo is a masculine sign, while Venus is thought feminine. Thus, I assume it is a mere coincidence.

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They weren't connected so simplistically. We might as well say that every Roman god was connected to Jupiter as king of the gods, and parent or grand-parent to many of them. Some of the connections are very limited. To put it colloquially, some of these gods had other fish to fry.

What we've got, however, is a syncretistic collection of attributes given to the signs, some of which seem more obviously Greek then Egyptian. In Greek myths, you get Mother Earth (Gaia) and Father Sky (Ouranos) so "naturally" earth and water signs become feminine, and air and fire signs become masculine. This wasn't the ancient Egyptian mythology, however. Geb (primal earth god) was male, whereas Nut (sky goddess; perhaps more particularly the Milky Way) was female.

There's a bit of stratigraphy here, with different layers to excavate. Think back in time, not forward.

You entirely ignored my points.

1 - Birth
8 - Door of Hades/Children
10 - Death
17 - Marriage
19 - Injury
25 - Weakness
28 - Livelihood

We have to close our eyes to what all astrologers are saying and go with your fanciful theories.

petosiris said:

For more mere coincidences and correspondences, see:

Cancer - Osiris, Tahuti, Khonsu, Iah, Mut, Anuket, Khepri
Leo - Ra, Horus, Sekhmet, Bennu, Maahes, Pakhet, Mehit
Virgo - Bastet, Seshat, Mafdet, Mau, Anat, Shesmetet, Tayet
Libra - Maat, Neith, Nephtys, Amunet, Renenet, Wosret, Heret-Kau
Scorpio - Serqet, Imhotep, Urthekau, Hedetet, Ta-Bitjet, Sepa, Tjenenet
Sagittarius - Amun, Ptah, Banebdjedet, Tatenen, Resheph, Shed, Sia
Capricorn - Wadjet, Atum, Heka, Bes, Meretseger, Meskhenet, Shai
Aquarius - Geb, Shu, Tefnut, Nefertem, Ihy, Neper, Shezmu
Pisces - Hatmehit, Khnum, Min, Ketesh, Iabet, Kuk, Tawaret
Aries - Seth, Sobek, Montu, Anhur, Heryshaf, Kherty, Baba
Taurus - Isis, Hathor, Apis, Mehet-Weret, Bat, Hesat, Heket
Gemini - Anubis, Upuaut, Seker, Anput, Khenti-Amentiu, Kebehut, Uneg

Astrology is based to work with coincidences, as it is a form of divination and sometimes uses archetypes (to use a modern term) for a broad group of things. Are you now going to tell me that Venus gets her exaltation in Pisces because the goddess Hatmehit was a fish, and that the goddess Serqet may have been a waterscorpion thus some Greek fancied Scorpio as a watery sign? Or that Khephri = Cancer (which is actually the case in a few depictions irc) thus it rules the underworld. I can think of thousands such coincidences.

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What are your sources on the deity correlations? Some correlations are obvious, some not so much.

Try not to be so patronizing, Petosiris. Otherwise I'll think that you find my posts threatening in some way.

Speaking of Joanne Conman, are you familiar with her article on the hypsomata (exaltations)? https://www.academia.edu/418596/The_Egyptian_Origins_of_Planetary_Hypsomata

Others have traced the exaltations to the "secret places" of planets in Mesopotamia. So we don't have to make up stuff when able scholars have published the results of their research. Is their any scholar's work in particlar that you would like to discuss regarding exaltations?

I restricted my comments on Venus to her planetary joy in the 5th house, incidentally. I'm unclear why you added to it a slippery slope argment.

''Some correlations are obvious, some not so much.''

Waybread, all correlations are entirely fanciful. I just made a list for ''Concerning the consecration of statues in the naos'' where one must consecrate the statue prepared with a suitable rising image'' for which Hephaistio says is important, but gives no clues of gods and their connections.

''Try not to be so patronizing, Petosiris. Otherwise I'll think that you find my posts threatening in some way.''

I don't find your posts threatening, just annoying. If you continue with this tone, I have the option of just ignoring them.

petosiris said:

You entirely ignored my points.

1 - Birth
8 - Door of Hades/Children
10 - Death
17 - Marriage
19 - Injury
25 - Weakness
28 - Livelihood

We have to close our eyes to what all astrologers are saying and go with your fanciful theories.

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Are you kidding me, Mr. P? How many of my points have you ignored in the course of this discussion?? You seldom cite your sources, so I have to consider that much of what you post is conjectural.

All astrologers?? C'mon. Nobody has demonstrated conclusively what the decans stars even were, let alone how the ancient Egyptians used them in a predictive way.

Do you mind saying what has been your education? I ask because you seem unaware that original scholarship often starts with some kind of hypothesis sketch, and takes off from there. Maybe there is a lacuna in our knowledge; or oftentimes there are some disparate "facts" that don't fit. New scholarship is often based upon demonstrating that the received wisdom doesn't hold up. Or maybe there's a tantalizing connection that bears further investigation. So then we get to work on it.

Oh, sort of like your own research on the sidereal zodiac in Hellenistic astrology.

I note that you have not actually refuted what I wrote so much as attempted to ridicule it.

Nice.

''Speaking of Joanne Conman, are you familiar with her article on the hypsomata (exaltations)? https://www.academia.edu/418596/The_...tary_Hypsomata''

Thanks. Especially for the table, which I was thinking of doing myself. I am a bit skeptical of the exaltations theory though.

If there are further evidence of the hypsomata being tied with paranatellonta for Egypt, it makes the usage of exaltations and depressions further questionable today.

''Do you mind saying what has been your education? I ask because you seem unaware that original scholarship often starts with some kind of hypothesis sketch, and takes off from there. Maybe there is a lacuna in our knowledge; or oftentimes there are some disparate "facts" that don't fit. New scholarship is often based upon demonstrating that the received wisdom doesn't hold up. Or maybe there's a tantalizing connection that bears further investigation. So then we get to work on it.''

Sorry, you get too scholarly for me. Do you want me to cite Hephaistio directly? Do you not believe me that he says to examine the decans in the way I shown? What kind of citation do you want?

I am on an internet forum. Still, I too would also appreciate academic citations for your theories for the Aries = I = Mars story. Annoying post after post, waybread.

petosiris said:

''Some correlations are obvious, some not so much.''

Waybread, all correlations are entirely fanciful. I just made a list for ''Concerning the consecration of statues in the naos'' where one must consecrate the statue prepared with a suitable rising image'' for which Hephaistio says is important, but gives no clues of gods and their connections.

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Say what? Now you've really lost me. So your list was entirely fanciful?? Designed to do what? Pull my leg? If so, consider it pulled.

I thought that being "fanciful" was, you know, sort of bad.

petosiris said:

''Do you mind saying what has been your education? I ask because you seem unaware that original scholarship often starts with some kind of hypothesis sketch, and takes off from there. Maybe there is a lacuna in our knowledge; or oftentimes there are some disparate "facts" that don't fit. New scholarship is often based upon demonstrating that the received wisdom doesn't hold up. Or maybe there's a tantalizing connection that bears further investigation. So then we get to work on it.''

Sorry, you get too scholarly for me. I am on an internet forum. Still, I too would also appreciate academic citations for your theories for the Aries = I = Mars story.

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Well, we're all on an Internet forum, incidentally. But you are giving off clues in how and what you write.

Where did I post an "Aries=I=Mars" story???

Do you mean my discussion of a probable mythological Egyptian origin for thematic house meanings? Or something else?

W

waybread said:

Well, we're all on an Internet forum, incidentally. But you are giving off clues in how and what you write.

Where did I post an "Aries=I=Mars" story???

Do you mean my discussion of a probable mythological Egyptian origin for thematic house meanings? Or something else?

W

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So in looking at something like the 5th house of children, for example, I note that Venus joys in this house. The Greeks and Romans were great ones for drawing parallels between their gods and foreign gods. They determined that the Egyptian cognate for Venus was Hathor. Hathor ruled joy, female sexuality, maternity, and generally good times. Her name translates as "the house of Horus." Horus, of course, was the sun god as a child. It's probably a mere coincidence that the sun rules Leo, the 5th sign.

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Well, I did successfully pull your leg. I entertained your theory for a considerable time and I rejected it. This is a strong argument.

Petosiris,

I always recommend that if people dislike my posts, just ignore them. Don't dignify them with a reply.

Basically, when you show convincing proof of a Hellenistic astrologer using that scheme contrary to the thema mundi (which has Cancer Rising) and the diurnal symbolism, which evidently has nothing to do with the signs, I would change my mind and agree that there is something to the modern idea of Aries = Mars = I.

And it goes without saying, that resorting to ''esotericism'' and mythological associations is not a convincing proof. At the end of the day, there might be something to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

P.

Petosiris, it's easy to reject a novel, unexpected idea out-of-hand when you haven't done the research. A simple bibliographic search would have turned up Joanne Conman's name, for example. Ditto for Neugebauer's publications on demotic horoscopes.

petosiris said:

Basically, when you show convincing proof of a Hellenistic astrologer using that scheme contrary to the thema mundi (which has Cancer Rising) and the diurnal symbolism, which evidently has nothing to do with the signs, I would change my mind and agree that there is something to the modern idea of Aries = Mars = I.

And it goes without saying, that resorting to ''esotericism'' and mythological associations is not a convincing proof. At the end of the day, there might be something to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

P.

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Where did I post that Mars=Aries=I??

So here's what I think is the (your??) problem, Petosiris. I think you define Hellenistic astrology far too narrowly. I think this focused mindset is common with the small group of (anglophone) traditional astrologers who define Hellenistic astrology primarily as the inner "clockwork" of the practices identified in the surviving "literary" sources. Never mind that what the extant sources wrote about earlier astrologers is what a historian would consider to be tenuously reliable, because it's essentially second-hand information. (Barring, perhaps, a thorough work-up by a philologist.)

Again, "convincing proof" is not what a lot of information on Antiquity consists of. If you familiarized yourself with standard historical methods and textual analysis, you wouldn't say things like this. Think of history working like certain types of law cases, where "the preponderance of the evidence" suffices for an acquittal or conviction. In history, evidence may be enough to keep a hypothesis afloat.

Have you read Frederick Cramer's Astrology in Roman Law and Politics? Very eye-opening for what it reveals about astrology in the Roman empire and the wide diversity of practitioners. You won't find astrological techniques in this book, but hopefully a better understanding of who the astrologers were in ancient times.

You are probably aware that Franz Cumont saw a strong magical Egyptian link to astrology. Think about the Hermetic tradition in astrology. I read somewhere that Cumont thought that Firmicus Maternus had trained as an Egyptian priest. Certainly FM was extremely reluctant to disclose information that he deemed to be spiritual secrets. So whose secrets were they?

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...h-1937-paper/4C019397EBFA899419EFA399F8590165

There are also some interesting bits on Egyptian religion in Plutarch, Isis and Osiris that I find astrologically relevant.

Once again, my specific interest is in the origin of thematic contents of houses in ancient astrology. Are we clear on that? I don't have a problem with Cancer rising in the Thema Mundi. As Ptolemy noted, you can start your zodiac pretty much anywhere you darn like. Pick one.

Where I did refer to specific planets re: ancient correspondences between signs and houses, these were planetary joys, not domiciles. Got it??

You can keep your Jungian archetypes. Nothing that I have written refers to them. I've written elsewhere on the big problem of relying upon Jung in modern psychological astrology, but that's a completely different topic.

Petosiris,

In terms of the diversity of ancient astrological practice, we might also throw in Mithraism and some astrological materials in Egyptian magic. (Cf. Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation. ) A really good article is by James Evans, The astrologer's apparatus: a picture of professional practice in Greco-Roman Egypt, Journal for the History of Astronomy Vol. 35, Part 1, No. 118, p. 1 - 44 (2004). Available at:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2004JHA....35....1E

Evans makes a good ---but not conclusive (to you, anyway)--- argument for the widespread use of permanent astrology boards by professional astrologers in ancient times. Kind of interesting when we consider that so many of the extant ancient horoscopes were in a verbal-only form, not graphic. I can't think of any of the extant astrologer-authors who mention these, but maybe you can. So I think we have to be careful in assuming that the authors have given us a full story of their practice.

Evans also mentions the religious-magic element of horoscope readings, where the astrologer might invoke a god to support his chart-reading. The different gem stones used to display planets on the astrologer's board may have been magical gems to both the astrologer and (suitably impressed) client. Archaeologists have found gems matching those to be used by astrologers carved with images of the planetary gods.

Theurgy in ancient astrology, anyone?

I could go on like this, but sober scholarship doesn't dismiss the significance of religion and magic in ancient astrology. However, I can see why it wouldn't appeal to modern rationalists, of a presentist frame of mind.

*




Releasing or Aphesis
“...Releasing...” is a term that applies to general methods of Time Lords
where a significant point is set free from its position in the chart
and moves through it in one way or another.
In methods like the primary directions
the released signifier moves through successive degrees of the natal chart in a continuous arc
whereas in the Zodiacal Releasing technique
the signifier moves from one sign to the next in discrete jumps.
The nature of the significator determines the type of information that is revealed
by a given time-lord system.


Zodiacal Releasing typically uses the “...ARABIC PARTS ...”
or Lots as signifiers whose signs become points of departure.
Valens typically uses either of the two main Lots of Hellenistic astrology
that of Fortune and that of Spirit
but in principle there is no reason
why the sign containing any other Lot
could not serve as a starting point for releasing.



Chronocrators: Lords of Time Periods
The term “...chronocrator...”
refers to any celestial body or point in the zodiac
that is an indicator of time
or
a period of time.
The word is known from the periodic conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn every 20 years
which is known as the Great Chronocrator.


The technique of Zodiacal Releasing is described by Vettius Valens
as one of the most precise and powerful
and is attributed to a Hellenistic astrologer named Abraham.
The time lords or Chronocrators
are the Western equivalent of the Hindu Dasa system
in which the planets serve in turn
as regents of a given period of time
usually including a series of sub-regents
serving under the principal one for shorter periods of time.

Some of these methods are general, investigating life as a whole,
whereas others are more specific and deal with particular topics.

.