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  #1  
Unread 01-09-2014, 11:31 AM
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Andrea_ Andrea_ is offline
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Dispositors and Sign rulers

Hello, I hope i won't repeat a subject that is already opened around here and that touches the same matters )

While reading about the importance of the dispositors & co, I began wondering what should happen when the final dispositor for almost all the planets falls in a sign with 2 rulers? (such as Scorpio with Mars& Pluto; Pisces with Neptune& Jupiter; Aquarius with Saturn and Uranus) What would the criterias to establish the final dispositor be?

If the 2 possible dispositors are linked by an easy-flowing aspect (trine, sextile and parallel, and even a conjunction depending on the planets involved) can it be said that both of them can dispose the energies simultaneously?

But also, if the 2 possible dispositors are linked via a tough aspect (square, opposition, etc) will this make the gap between the way they function even larger and determine a person to choose to act only through one of them mostly? (or possibily the only one influencing this aspect would be the degree of affliction of the planets involved)

In my chart, all the planets (with the exception of Pluto which is disposed by Jupiter) are disposed by Saturn & Nepune, which are in mutual reception and united by a sextile, one in Pisces and the other in Cap respectively. But because Saturn is in Pisces, i can choose to concentrate on either Neptune, or Jupiter, of which the latter also ends the chain, being located in its domicile & dignity in Sagittarius in the 12th House. Also Jupiter and Saturn make a square (that is very wide with over 9 degrees, but still, it's there)

In the end, should i name all three of them, Neptune, Saturn and Jupiter final dispositors? Yet as a big Cappy, would Saturn's expression be of more use to me rather than using Jupiter and trying to compensate what doesn't come that easy to me, being it's natural opposite? (on a personal level, I feel like i need to take what i need from both worlds with a lot of discernment, and that that square is quite constructive in a way)


Last edited by Andrea_; 01-09-2014 at 11:47 AM.
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Unread 01-09-2014, 04:58 PM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

Andrea, I am finding this hard to visualize. Planets are dispositors, not signs. Would you like to post a chart to illustrate your question?

You can get two final dispositors with planets in mutual reception. For example, if someone has Saturn in Taurus and Venus in Capricorn. Rarely you can find a 3-way relationship like this.

Basically planets in mutual reception help one another, even if they do not form a major aspect. However, aspects would flavour the nature of their relationship.

In my chart, with an Aquarian emphasis, I can consider my Mercury and Saturn to be in mutual reception, my Mercury-Uranus, or both. I think both have some merit.
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Last edited by waybread; 01-10-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 12:06 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

You can simplify the process, and return to a balanced and proven system of disposition by not using the modern rulerships. You can't have Pluto disposed by Jupiter, and then say Saturn and Neptune are mutual dispositors of the chart. You apparently are not yet experienced; I suggest you stick to final disposition for the time being, until you see how the sole dispositor actually works out in practice. Then try using mutual dispositors. Mutual disposition dilutes the strength dramatically (I use mutual disposition of the chart, but its interpretation becomes more complex, and less potent, than a final dispositor.)

A final dispositor is Final. It does not dispose most of the planets, it disposes all of them. It is also called a sole dipositor, which carries that idea of one and one only. The idea of the final dispositor is like Harry Truman: "The buck stops here." The final dispositor is the final authority; his word is final.

The planet disposing any sign is the dispositor of that sign regardless of aspects or condition. Your questions about this show you are thinking. Aspects and other conditioning of the lord of a sign (whether final dispositor or not) show how that planet will function (easily or with difficulty, for good or evil) as lord of his signs, and of the houses (affairs and circumstances) he rules (disposes, determines...look up these two words in the dictionary.)

House rulership is very important in astrology. The primary rulership of a house goes to the dispositor of the sign on the cusp of the house, as you surely know. But do not overlook house rulerships in delineation.

Look at the chart of Bradley Manning. It's on the forum here somewhere, under Celebrity charts I believe.

Both Mars and Pluto are in Scorpio. Pluto is probably the Leading planet if you classify the chart as a Bowl pattern, and also given a later rather than earlier time of birth (Moon could be Leading if an earlier birth). Before the discovery of Uranus in 1781, astrologers had only 7 planets to work with. Let's simplify our task and ignore Pluto as ruler of Scorpio for now. Mars is final dispositor. In terms of essential dignities, he's the boss in this chart.

But look at Jupiter. All disposition in the chain passes through him before Mars assumes command. What we have here is a very powerful Executive Officer (I was in the Navy -- the XO is Second in Command, and the one who actually ensures that the Captain's orders are carried out.) Mars does not behold really powerful aspects, but Jupiter does...and he is also domicile ruler of the powerful, highly significant Sagittarius stellium, and through the stellium disposes all planets but the Scorpio triplet. This dispositional configuration is unusual and also highly significant in understanding this eccentric individual.

In Manning's case I interpret Mars-Scorpio as the fundmental, underlying and controlling factor in his psychological makeup, the prime motivator for his behaviors. But I give Jupiter a sort of dynamic, boots-on-the-ground sort of power. He's the fulcrum and focal point for the action. If you will carefully develop the interpretation of Jupiter, you will see exactly why Manning did what he did. Underlying this motivation is the deeper and ultimately controlling Scorpio triplet, commanded by Mars.

You will develop your own ways of interpreting such confiigurations. But I hope this gives you some idea of how to analyze and interpret the chain of disposition.

If we allow Pluto as dispositor of Scorpio, then he is more powerful than Mars, although they are co-rulers. He is more powerful because of his leading position in the whole-pattern of the chart (either a Bowl -- Pluto, or a Bucket -- Jupiter).

If you work with this idea of co-rulers of a sign, then the art is in the proper weighing and balancing of power, and that can get tricky as in the case of Manning.

For many years I used modern planets as rulers. I have gone back to the ancient rulerships. I don't give rulership to the modern planets any longer.

Disposition is used to assess the power or preeminence of one planet (and whatever it signifies) over another. If a chart contains a final dispositor, it is extremely powerful in the life.

Disposition deals with Essential Dignities. All essential dignities are sign-based. They imply inherent, innate, immutable characteristics of the personality. We should keep them separated in our minds from the Accidental Dignities, which are adventitious, circumstantial, experiential.

A final word. In the analysis of a chart we stick to the astrological terminology...."Mars is final dispositor." But once we have done the preliminary analysis, I would encourage you to interpret this Mars and think in terms of significance rather than astrological symbols. The meaning of the planet and the whole chart is clarified in this way and we don't get mired down in astrolgical jargon while overlooking the real-life application of the symbols.

Last edited by greybeard; 01-10-2014 at 12:42 AM.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 05:04 PM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Andrea, I am finding this hard to visualize. Planets are dispositors, not signs. Would you like to post a chart to illustrate your question?
.
Yeah, sorry, i still have to learn more to handle english better i guess i was referring to the penultimate planet that falls in a sign with 2 rulers, thus linking to 2 possible final dispositors (if one uses the traditional& modern rulersips alltogether) with one of them being in mutual reception with another planet.

Positions:
Pluto in Sagittarius
Jupiter in Sagittarius
Sun in Cap
ASC Cap
Mars Cap
Mercury Cap
Neptune Cap
Uraus Cap
Moon Aqua
Venus Aqua
Saturn Pisc

Hey Greybeard, the "noviceness" isn't an appearence, it's what i am ) I only started learning/searching about these things 2 years ago as a hobby and because this is what i felt and couldn't ignore... the more i read the more interesting it became :d

Yet, man, C. Manning.. that's one strange folk and story, and even at his intelligence he (actually, She) was challenged by his genetical idendity disorder and a few other strange patterns. I think it is trickier to judge a person's acts by his chart when there's a more or less psychological disorder in the middle. He reminds me of Snowden because of that messy situation with classified information. Well, thanks for the info
But I never heard/read about anything saying a dispositor means the final planet for them all. Because it is more often to meet charts were there are 2 or 3 different dispositors.

Last edited by Andrea_; 01-12-2014 at 02:11 PM.
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Unread 01-10-2014, 08:41 PM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

My experience is that modern rulers have meaning, and in reading a natal chart I would look at both. If we use both traditional AND modern rulers, Jupiter would be your final depositor. You can have more than one if you have two or more domiciled planets. Some charts have no domiciled planets, so then you have to look for things like mutual reception. Your chain (by signs) would be:

Pluto>>>Jupiter
Jupiter>>>>Jupiter (domiciled)

Capricorn planets >>>Saturn>>>Neptune and/or Jupiter But since Neptune is in Capricorn and Saturn is in Pisces, we could see Saturn and Neptune as in mutual reception. If you go with Jupiter as the traditional ruler of Pisces, the buck stops with Jupiter.

Aquarius planets>>>Saturn (traditional) gets us back to Jupiter (traditional) or the Saturn-Neptune (modern) mutual reception.

Alternatively:

Aquarius planets>>>>Uranus (modern)>>>>Saturn>>>the same loops/as above.

You can also do these chains with house rulers, as in a quadrant house system like Placidus, they may be different from planets-in-signs.

All in all, Jupiter seems like the final dispositor, but if you wish to throw in modern rulers or use them exclusively, you also have a "terminal" Saturn-Neptune in mutual reception.

Unless both planets are weakened in some way, planets in mutual reception definitely help each other out. This has been my experience with a "final" Mercury-Saturn and/or Mercury-Uranus in my chart and life.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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Last edited by waybread; 01-10-2014 at 08:47 PM.
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Unread 01-11-2014, 02:31 AM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

Andrea, I hope you got your questions answered. If you've been studying astrology for two years, it is perfectly fine to learn at your own speed and in the manner that you learn best. It will all come to you eventually!
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 01-11-2014, 08:51 AM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]

i wrote my message above that way because i actually do not entirely believe that planets have 100% capacity to guide our lives and that they are the only signifactors. But let's say they were: no astrologer can give a perfect description about one's case, but after something has happened to the individual, let's say a celebrity f, only then can some patterns be seen and how one CHOSE to use that multitude of ways of expressing the energies she was given at the time of birth, and it's reinforced a lot by the society as a whole, so really, the variables are huge.. and this is what i believe: we aren't only influenced by our European Chart and the planets that we see in the sky through our telescopes. So this includes how big or small are the chances of a person to be born with a psychological disorder. Yet, I'm on this forum, so i actually believe in something, right?

So let's say you have 2 children born at the same time (year, day, hour) and at the same place. Their mothers are twins at origins, their fathers do not have anything specific that has been discovered ater medical analisys. Yet, one of the children is born in an extremely weak condition and with a psychological disorder while the other one is very healthy.
Could anybody have told what would happen before the childen were born, and correctly guess who and which one of them would suffer more, after analysing their parents charts? Or even after analysing the baby's chart but not knowing yet which one suffers? If yes, there would almost always be 2 sides clashing, 2 best astrologers thinking they both are right. And the possibilities are they both could have been right actually... but who could have clearly seen from the charts analysed and basic biography knowledge that one of the mothers took some medication only for a short time and that that medication had some side-effects that affected the baby? Or a suplimentar stress-factor in her environment that then affected the baby's health, and so on, a full chain of turn-outs and possibilities..?
Of course, i didn't want to discuss beliefs
And i never said psy. disorders diqualify a horoscope, just makes the range of possibilities and turn-outs wider, and thus, a person's actions trickier to interpret, depending, of course, on the disorder.

Also, when i replied, and saw your post, i don't know what hour was in your country, but in mine it was evening and i didn't really have the time to delve into his chart at that moment, this is why i didn't comment about it!

You didn't have have to jump to the conclusion that i won't come back and review my opinion, or at least take what your wrote seriously and then attack me.

I just had one question, about what a final dispositor is & co because i read some stuff on internet and from there my doubts. Well, i actually got the main points answered, thus i should thank you both ;-)

Last edited by Andrea_; 01-12-2014 at 02:24 PM.
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Unread 01-11-2014, 07:07 PM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

Andrea, I agree with much of what you say. A truism of modern astrology as well as a rabbinical response to astrology is that "the stars impel, but they do not compel."

I am a great believer in choice-centered astrology. I think our planetary placements will manifest somehow, but we can choose empowering interpretations over disempowering ones. (See the current "moon-Saturn conjunction" thread for a prime example.) If we surpress a planet's energy, it tends to show up in our lives as other people who seemingly manifest the unwanted planet's energies. I think it's better just to say, "OK, maybe my chart looks like a train wreck, but how can I work on empowering interpretations of those squares and oppositions?"

The squares can be considered challenges; and the oppositions, indicators of the need for balance and compromise. I am not trying to paste a happy-smiley face on real difficulties in life; just to say that so much of our life reflects a mental attitude.

The twin problem is interesting. Generally twins are not born at the identical moment: one precedes the other. There is an interesting article at this site about using finer delineations within the horoscope to explain their differences: www.aliceportman.com .

And then there are many things not shown by the horoscope that affect people's lives. A classic example of identical twins is one who smoked and the other who didn't. Later in life, you can really see the difference. Smoking is ruled by Neptune in modern astrology, but different people can respond to it differently.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/31/health...entical-twins/
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 01-11-2014, 07:30 PM
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

My final dispositers of everything in my chart are Mars and Pluto in Scorpio. They are linked by an extremely tight semi septile aspect that is a minute tight.

I dont think either really has an advantage over the other in power. I do have a bowl chart and Pluto is my lead planet. Yet my mars is conjunct and parallel my part of spirit, which augments its power as well. Then again my Pluto is stronger aspected with the planets themselves than my mars. But my mars is parallel my descendant and conjunct and parallel my 5th house cusp, which happens to be my strongest house. So yeah...imo they are pretty even in power. I think for myself: having mars and pluto as co final dispositers is fitting since Mars and Pluto have a lot in common. Since one is an innner and the other is an outer I see Pluto as my final dispositer in spritual matters and Mars as my final dispositer for worldly matters.

For most ppl I would reccomend using the traditional rulers as has been mentioned.. But if youre one of those ppl who are heavily influenced by the outers (and if you are, youll know it) then use both and try to gauge which planet is stronger in your chart.

Last edited by The Ram; 01-11-2014 at 09:12 PM.
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Unread 01-11-2014, 07:52 PM
Lena_ Lena_ is offline
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Re: Dispositors and Sign rulers

I would concider both planets as final dispositors with an emphasis on what the traditional dispositor co-rules in the natal..
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