Fixed Grand Cross

My chart overall is a very intense one with a lot of stressful aspects but the one larger aspect that seems to have done some pretty good psychological damage is that darn grand cross. Some parts of it I get like the Venus opposition to Pluto having to deal with giving away my personal power but the one thing that I am finding confusing is the aspects from Saturn to Venus and Pluto and also chiron. From what I have been told and read the placement of Saturn in my chart is a good one as far as being in a sign it is the co-ruler of but the retrograde can't be a good thing and to me it's the only thing that I can see that is causing the ridiculous social anxiety I've had all my life. I'm also not seeing how I am supposed to deal with the stressful aspects and where I am supposed to turn all the tension into positive energy. I'm so confused and lost as to where I am supposed to be going and life just isn't fun. It's more difficult to get my day by day then it's worth to me and I am looking for answers as to where I need to be focus. Any kind of insight would be greatly appreciated.

Way too many aspect lines there!! Could you repost, eliminating the aspect lines to ASC, MC, Node, Pars Fortuna and Chiron - it's a much clearer picture then and you may get more comments as a result.

Oops sorry. I hope this one is better!

Lullu said:

My chart overall is a very intense one with a lot of stressful aspects but the one larger aspect that seems to have done some pretty good psychological damage is that darn grand cross. Some parts of it I get like the Venus opposition to Pluto having to deal with giving away my personal power but the one thing that I am finding confusing is the aspects from Saturn to Venus and Pluto and also chiron. From what I have been told and read the placement of Saturn in my chart is a good one as far as being in a sign it is the co-ruler of but the retrograde can't be a good thing and to me it's the only thing that I can see that is causing the ridiculous social anxiety I've had all my life. I'm also not seeing how I am supposed to deal with the stressful aspects and where I am supposed to turn all the tension into positive energy. I'm so confused and lost as to where I am supposed to be going and life just isn't fun. It's more difficult to get my day by day then it's worth to me and I am looking for answers as to where I need to be focus. Any kind of insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Hi, Lullu.

Two points. The grand cross includes Chiron, the Wounded/Healer, at 22Leo14, making an exact square to Pluto. If you do a search on Chiron and find a recent post under my screen name IleneK, you can read a brief write-up on the Chiron mythology. There is a woundedness involved in the energy of the t-square that is connected with Chiron and affairs of the 4th house of home life, mother, or nurturing parent, and also your most private inner life. But it is important to remember that this seat of suffering that you know now is the precise place where you may experience your most profound healing. So there is great hope for transformative healing [Pluto-Chiron] in your life's journey.

The way we work with grand squares is first to look to trines and/or sextiles that contact it. There is good fortune that we see two of them. The first is Moon in the 9th and conjunct the MC in almost exact trine to Venus. The other is Mercury [in opposition to Moon], trining Pluto.

Moon-Mercury connections can bless us with really good minds, a combination of a thinking and feeling mind. So you have excellent capacity to work with your issues. And as to how to work with them? Well, with the 3rd house Mercury, it could be through thinking, schooling, communicating about it, like you are here. With Moon in the 9th and conjunct the IC, it may be through the pursuit of higher education, long journeys, participation in organized religion. These are just examples of possible ways to work with the energies of the grand cross. You can study the characteristics of the 3rd-9th house axis, and it will likely stimulate creative solutions for you.

And it is also important to remember that you will develop greater comfort with yourself as you grow older [Saturn's influence in the GS].

IleneK said:

Hi, Lullu.

Two points. The grand cross includes Chiron, the Wounded/Healer, at 22Leo14, making an exact square to Pluto. If you do a search on Chiron and find a recent post under my screen name IleneK, you can read a brief write-up on the Chiron mythology. There is a woundedness involved in the energy of the t-square that is connected with Chiron and affairs of the 4th house of home life, mother, or nurturing parent, and also your most private inner life. But it is important to remember that this seat of suffering that you know now is the precise place where you may experience your most profound healing. So there is great hope for transformative healing [Pluto-Chiron] in your life's journey.

The way we work with grand squares is first to look to trines and/or sextiles that contact it. There is good fortune that we see two of them. The first is Moon in the 9th and conjunct the MC in almost exact trine to Venus. The other is Mercury [in opposition to Moon], trining Pluto.

Moon-Mercury connections can bless us with really good minds, a combination of a thinking and feeling mind. So you have excellent capacity to work with your issues. And as to how to work with them? Well, with the 3rd house Mercury, it could be through thinking, schooling, communicating about it, like you are here. With Moon in the 9th and conjunct the IC, it may be through the pursuit of higher education, long journeys, participation in organized religion. These are just examples of possible ways to work with the energies of the grand cross. You can study the characteristics of the 3rd-9th house axis, and it will likely stimulate creative solutions for you.

And it is also important to remember that you will develop greater comfort with yourself as you grow older [Saturn's influence in the GS].

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This is all so interesting! In regards to chiron in the 4th house, I'v never been able to completely relate to this. Any time I read anything on chiron in the 4th it is always talking about being wounded in some way by the family or, like you said, nurturing parent, but my family has always been amazing to me. my mother and father are still together and have mostly always supported me in everything that I want to do and have always made sure I've been completely taken care of financially. My mom has definitely been the nurturing parent and probably has almost been too caring lol. She has always made sure everything for me has been taken care of and has always taken extra time to make sure I know how much I am loved. My father has pretty much been the same also. So I'm not sure how chiron in the 4th would apply to me here.

I have heard that about grand cross's that when looking at them you are supposed to look for the positive aspects to the planets that are part of the cross. I know I have that moon trine venus but I can't figure out what it exactly means. I know how venus is supposed to be expressing itself but I cant figure out that darn moon. I understand what I traditional moon in capricorn is supposed to act like but when conjunt both neptune and uranus also in capricorn how exactly would that all work out? I've also read about it being in the ninth house but being so closely conjunct the midheaven it is supposed to eventually fully express itself in the 10th? And if that is true, how would the moon express itself in the 10th with an aquarius midheaven? With so many different things it gets very confusing for me lol. Also the only thing I've read about the moon trine venus is that it makes the personality more harmonious. Other than that I haven't been able to find much and I would think because normally the aspect isn't supposed to be focused on to much because it is dealing with inner planets that are fast moving.

The moon mercury opposition I would think would just make it difficult for a person to have their heart and head agree. One is saying one thing and one is saying another and the person will bounce back and fourth between the two becoming very indecisive. I am interested on your opinion about where my mercury is placed. Being in the third house would normally be very talkative being in its natural house but being retrograde in the third house I would think would mean communication problems and in cancer and conjunct the IC in leo....what would all of that mean to you?

Lullu - some astrologers wouldn't count Chiron as a part of an aspect pattern. This leaves you with a t-square between Venus, Pluto and Saturn, with Saturn as the apex planet. The apex planet represents a way of resolving the tensions evident in the opposition As IleneK helpfully pointed out on another thread, you can also look to the space opposite the apex planet for hints as to how that tension might be resolved, which is where Chrion might come in. With the opposition occurring across the ASC/DSC axis, it seems to suggest (very briefly) that the issue concerns self/others and the interaction thereof. If we consider Chiron to represent a possible resolution of that friction between your Venus and your Pluto placements, and if we also consider that Chiron also represents healing as well as woundedness, then it becomes possible to see that your home and family life actually represents a healing force in your life.

Hope that helps.

Lullu said:

This is all so interesting! In regards to chiron in the 4th house, I'v never been able to completely relate to this. Any time I read anything on chiron in the 4th it is always talking about being wounded in some way by the family or, like you said, nurturing parent, but my family has always been amazing to me. my mother and father are still together and have mostly always supported me in everything that I want to do and have always made sure I've been completely taken care of financially. My mom has definitely been the nurturing parent and probably has almost been too caring lol. She has always made sure everything for me has been taken care of and has always taken extra time to make sure I know how much I am loved. My father has pretty much been the same also. So I'm not sure how chiron in the 4th would apply to me here.

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It is not easy to pierce the sources of our unconscious mechanisms like social anxiety. I take your use of this term to mean something more substantial than just being shy or a bit nervous when you are in a social setting. Perhaps I misunderstand...? But if not, I believe that as you continue to observe and characterize your social anxiety over time, it will become more clear to you how the mechanism works and what are underlying factors, both genetic and experiential.

Please know that I am not casting blame anywhere or saying that your parents did anything intentionally with malice towards you. But with Venus in the the 1st, opposed by Pluto and squared by Saturn, and with Chiron, the wound, from the 4th, parents, home life, deepest roots are part of the puzzle. And lots of times, perhaps even most of the time, the profound wound is something as subtle as what was unintentionally implied by omission. So I would just urge you to observe and journal what goes on with you, in the outer and inner world, in detail, when you are experiencing social anxiety. That could be the seat of your greatest healing.

Kind regards,

IleneK said:

It is not easy to pierce the sources of our unconscious mechanisms like social anxiety. I take your use of this term to mean something more substantial than just being shy or a bit nervous when you are in a social setting. Perhaps I misunderstand...? But if not, I believe that as you continue to observe and characterize your social anxiety over time, it will become more clear to you how the mechanism works and what are underlying factors, both genetic and experiential.

Please know that I am not casting blame anywhere or saying that your parents did anything intentionally with malice toward you. But with Venus in the the 1st, opposed by Pluto and squared by Saturn, and with Chiron, the wound, from the 4th, parents, home life, deepest roots are part of the puzzle. And lots of times, perhaps even most of the time, the profound wound is something as subtle as what was unintentionally implied by omission. So I would just urge you to observe and journal what goes on with you, in the outer and inner world, in detail, when you are experiencing social anxiety. That could be the seat of your greatest healing.

Kind regards,

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IleneK,

I understand that you weren't trying to say anything negative and I wasn't upset. I was just trying to thoroughly explain myself is all and I apologize if I came off as being defensive. Any input from anyone is something I appreciate very much and I am always open to hearing opinions since even something small can bring something into light that I may not have noticed on my own. You are correct in that social anxiety is more than just being a little bit shy. It can range anywhere from mild to extreme but is an irrational fear of looking incompetent or I guess embarrassing oneself in front of others in social settings. It goes more deeply than that but I would say that what you have said about it involving my family could definitely be very true. I like that you said it being part of the puzzle. It gives me different way to look at it. I have been doing as much work as I can on my own by journaling and or reading books that have a different viewpoint then what is commonly used for western traditional medical views. Thank you for your help.

Inconjunct said:

Lullu - some astrologers wouldn't count Chiron as a part of an aspect pattern. This leaves you with a t-square between Venus, Pluto and Saturn, with Saturn as the apex planet. The apex planet represents a way of resolving the tensions evident in the opposition As IleneK helpfully pointed out on another thread, you can also look to the space opposite the apex planet for hints as to how that tension might be resolved, which is where Chrion might come in. With the opposition occurring across the ASC/DSC axis, it seems to suggest (very briefly) that the issue concerns self/others and the interaction thereof. If we consider Chiron to represent a possible resolution of that friction between your Venus and your Pluto placements, and if we also consider that Chiron also represents healing as well as woundedness, then it becomes possible to see that your home and family life actually represents a healing force in your life.

Hope that helps.

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I thought that chiron might not be considered part of a grand cross but I wasn't completely sure. It is nice to know that healing that space could be the resolution to my problems with the t-square. Thank you for giving me some clarity and pointing this out to me. You've been very helpful.

Lullu said:

<...>

I have heard that about grand cross's that when looking at them you are supposed to look for the positive aspects to the planets that are part of the cross. I know I have that moon trine venus but I can't figure out what it exactly means. I know how venus is supposed to be expressing itself but I cant figure out that darn moon. I understand what I traditional moon in capricorn is supposed to act like but when conjunt both neptune and uranus also in capricorn how exactly would that all work out? I've also read about it being in the ninth house but being so closely conjunct the midheaven it is supposed to eventually fully express itself in the 10th? And if that is true, how would the moon express itself in the 10th with an aquarius midheaven? With so many different things it gets very confusing for me lol. Also the only thing I've read about the moon trine venus is that it makes the personality more harmonious. Other than that I haven't been able to find much and I would think because normally the aspect isn't supposed to be focused on to much because it is dealing with inner planets that are fast moving.

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You are correct. Moon trine Venus is not particularly important by itself, other than it bodes well for the native, which is no small thing [ask someone with Moon square Venus ]. But an aspect beween the faster moving, inner planets is important because their energies can be known to you consciously in your everyday life. And, of course, your trine is important as it can unlock the door to the unconscious energies of the grand square.

Venus, ruler of attraction, relatedness, and the Other, is posited in the sign that it rules, so it is very comfortable in Taurus. Your Moon is posited in the sign opposite of the one it rules, so it inherently less comfortable. Moon rules our inner feeling life. In its dignity in Cancer, the sign it rules, we are made to feel emotionally safe and secure. When placed in Capricorn, the good mother makes us feel physically safe and secure, which is no small thing. But the mother may also be guarded emotionally for her own good reasons and may lack a nurturing, Cancerian component that is vital for our feeling okay about ourselves.


You have described in another post that your “... social anxiety is <...> fear of looking incompetent or ... embarrassing oneself in front of others in social settings.” This is Moon in Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, speaking. This is the seat of social anxiety. Moon-Saturn, Moon in Capricorn suggests that something is lacking, that there are obstacles, barriers, to our feeling emotionally secure about who and what we are. It impedes our having what we need emotionally to feel good about ourselves.


The trine suggests that as you continue to form relationships [Venus] outside of the family of origin [Moon], there will be great benefit to you. It means that ultimately you will be called to stand in your irrational fear of incompetence and lack, and to reach around it, beyond it, to relate to others. And in this knowledge [Moon in the 9th], as you try this, test this, and see what happens, you will begin to feel the anxiety fall away. It is not something that goes away over night, but it something that you can begin to experiment with and work with right now, putting yourself in social situations, and then reaching out, instead of withdrawing or contracting [Capricorn]. And part of this prescription is that you must be conscious of how weird or freaked out you are feeling and take note of it, see what thoughts come up, what mental images, and record them, and review them. Also, observe the response of others around you. This Moon trine Venus is a key feature of your natal chart. It is what can stop Alice from falling down the rabbit hole.


You have so much going for you. Good, open mind. Good attitude, good chart placements, too. As you keep your eyes and your heart open to this matter, you will begin drawing the energies of this grand square into service of your greater good.

Hey Lullu,

Would I be correct if I said that from 2004 onwards, your relationship luck with males are virtually non-existant, most probably due to your social anxiety. However, before 2004, things were better, and I would think that boys at that time would consider you to be attractive.

IleneK said:

You are correct. Moon trine Venus is not particularly important by itself, other than it bodes well for the native, which is no small thing [ask someone with Moon square Venus ]. But an aspect beween the faster moving, inner planets is important because their energies can be known to you consciously in your everyday life. And, of course, your trine is important as it can unlock the door to the unconscious energies of the grand square.

Venus, ruler of attraction, relatedness, and the Other, is posited in the sign that it rules, so it is very comfortable in Taurus. Your Moon is posited in the sign opposite of the one it rules, so it inherently less comfortable. Moon rules our inner feeling life. In its dignity in Cancer, the sign it rules, we are made to feel emotionally safe and secure. When placed in Capricorn, the good mother makes us feel physically safe and secure, which is no small thing. But the mother may also be guarded emotionally for her own good reasons and may lack a nurturing, Cancerian component that is vital for our feeling okay about ourselves.


You have described in another post that your “... social anxiety is <...> fear of looking incompetent or ... embarrassing oneself in front of others in social settings.” This is Moon in Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, speaking. This is the seat of social anxiety. Moon-Saturn, Moon in Capricorn suggests that something is lacking, that there are obstacles, barriers, to our feeling emotionally secure about who and what we are. It impedes our having what we need emotionally to feel good about ourselves.


The trine suggests that as you continue to form relationships [Venus] outside of the family of origin [Moon], there will be great benefit to you. It means that ultimately you will be called to stand in your irrational fear of incompetence and lack, and to reach around it, beyond it, to relate to others. And in this knowledge [Moon in the 9th], as you try this, test this, and see what happens, you will begin to feel the anxiety fall away. It is not something that goes away over night, but it something that you can begin to experiment with and work with right now, putting yourself in social situations, and then reaching out, instead of withdrawing or contracting [Capricorn]. And part of this prescription is that you must be conscious of how weird or freaked out you are feeling and take note of it, see what thoughts come up, what mental images, and record them, and review them. Also, observe the response of others around you. This Moon trine Venus is a key feature of your natal chart. It is what can stop Alice from falling down the rabbit hole.


You have so much going for you. Good, open mind. Good attitude, good chart placements, too. As you keep your eyes and your heart open to this matter, you will begin drawing the energies of this grand square into service of your greater good.

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I am amazed at how accurate all of this is. I definitely push myself to go out and make connections of some kind with people even though it is extremely difficult and people think I am odd sometimes. I think part of the problem could be putting myself around negative people. Interestingly enough, through my recent Neptune conjunt Saturn transit, I came face to face with all of these issues and behaviors that I had been avoiding and unconsciously participating in for most of my life. It's almost as if I got a big smack in the face from reality and have learned more than I ever thought I could about the world on a spiritual level.

I would just like to say how much I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of this to me. You have gone far beyond what i was expecting. Thank you so very much.

Doom said:

Hey Lullu,

Would I be correct if I said that from 2004 onwards, your relationship luck with males are virtually non-existant, most probably due to your social anxiety. However, before 2004, things were better, and I would think that boys at that time would consider you to be attractive.

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Well, yes, in a way. Although I have always had the anxiety to some extent, this was the year that really triggered it and made it go from me being very self-conscious to a full on anxiety disorder. I have never had a problem attracting guys. Actually, it has always been extremely easy for me, but only in a physical way. I've never really been able to connect with anyone and keep anyone around for a relationship because of the anxiety (and maybe that I'm a little odd hehe). There has been one person that I had a connection with but other than that it's been people here and there that treated me really badly and had some serious issues of their own. What made you focus in on 2004?

Lullu said:

<...> My mom has definitely been the nurturing parent and probably has almost been too caring lol. She has always made sure everything for me has been taken care of <...>


The moon mercury opposition I would think would just make it difficult for a person to have their heart and head agree. One is saying one thing and one is saying another and the person will bounce back and fourth between the two becoming very indecisive. I am interested on your opinion about where my mercury is placed. Being in the third house would normally be very talkative being in its natural house but being retrograde in the third house I would think would mean communication problems and in cancer and conjunct the IC in leo....what would all of that mean to you?

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Hi, again.


We were speaking earlier about the Chiron/4th house wound. I expect that it is connected with the implicit message that comes with a parent being “almost too caring,” making “sure everything for me has been taken care of.” If we were just to play around trying to speculate on what kind of indirect message one might receive from an “over” caring parent, it might be the implicit message that the parent doesn't think the child can take care of itself. Even though motivated by the very best and loving intentions, the message is incompetence. Just something to consider.


But back to Moon-Mercury opposition. With the oppositional aspect, energies are inherently at odds. But the most important issue that we face in the quest for greater self-awareness is the resolution of opposites. That is because the human mind, along with Western thought, tends to see things in those terms. Black or white. Yes or no. On or off. But that is not where we find the philosopher's stone, the metaphoric gold. The gold is found in the balance of tension between the opposites, as described by Carl Jung and other great thinkers. With your Moon-Mercury, and various other oppositions in your natal chart, you are very well equipped to find balance between opposing energies. That is what a chart with lots of oppositions tells us. And specifically with your Moon-Mercury opposition, it is via Pluto's trine in Scorpio and in the 7th house.


We have discussed how Moon in Capricorn might manifest as the good mother who takes very great physical care of the child, but may not be so comfortable with the expression of and reception towards feelings. Yet, in your instance, you have Mercury poised in opposition to that placement, in the sign that specifically nurtures inner feeling life. That is the filter through which you see and process matters, and it is this conflict with your Moon which may be a key contributor the social anxiety.

The trine to Pluto from Mercury and the sextile to Pluto from the Moon together suggest that your inner dynamic between physical [Capricorn] and emotional security [Cancer] needs to be closely scrutinized and cleansed [Pluto, Scorpio]. This will then permit your emotional needs, your inner feeling life, to experience free expression and respect. Pluto's contact from the 7th house suggests that this issue may have greater clarity and be best accomplished as you establish relationships with others. It is interesting that social anxiety expressly obstructs this from happening. So it makes it even more important that you just go out and feel anxious and have all the negative thoughts, but stay there. Don't leave. Reach out to the Other [of all kinds, including friends], because in this lies the resolution of the original, archaic Moon-Mercury opposition. And it will be through the resolution of classical self vs other [1st-7th] opposition, with Pluto's help pulling you to the 7th, that you will come to understand how to engage energies from all the oppositions in your birth chart!