Ptolemaic Tables

petosiris

Banned
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Bunraku

Well-known member
JA, Can we have a discussion about that last bit in the last diagram? About the relationships?

Petosiris already mapped it out for the most part.

23. Of Faces, Chariots, and the Like.

Such, then, are the natural affinities of the stars and the signs of the zodiac. The planets are said to be in their "proper face"123 when an individual planet keeps to the sun or moon the same aspect which its house has to their houses; as, for example, when Venus is in sextile to the luminaries, provided that she is occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon, in accordance with the original arrangement of their houses.124

They are said to be in their own "chariots" and "thrones"125 and the like when they p113 happen to have familiarity in two or more of the aforesaid ways with the places in which they are found; for then their power is most increased in effectiveness by the similarity and co-operation of the kindred property of the signs which contain them.


They say they "rejoice"126 when, even though the containing signs have no familiarity with the signs themselves, nevertheless they have it with the stars of the same sect; in this case the sympathy arises less directly.


They share, however, in the similarity in the same way; just as, on the contrary, when they are found in alien regions belonging to the opposite sect, a great part of their proper power is paralysed, because the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the signs produces a different and adulterated nature.


123 Venus' solar house, Libra, is sextile dexter (i.e. toward the west) to Leo, the sun's house, and her lunar house, Taurus, is sextile sinister (i.e. toward the east) to the moon's house, Cancer.


125 Ptolemy pays little attention to the thrones and chariots, which were apparently, as Bouché-Leclercq (p244) asserts, not to his taste as a scientific astrologer. In the Michigan astrological roll (P. Mich. 149, col. 3A, 22‑34) the "thrones" are identified with the (astrological) exaltations and the depressions of the planets are called their "prisons" (φυλακαί); upon the thrones the planets have "royal power," in their prisons they "are abased and oppose their own powers." Sarapion (CCAG VIII.4, p228, 25, and p231, 13) and Balbillus (ibid., p237, 8) use the word ἰδιοθρονεῖν.

126 Vettius Valens uses this word several times in a broader sense than that of this definition.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Stars are said to be in their own chariots whenever they are posited in their own domicile, triplicity, or exaltation... [or]...terms.

A star will also be more powerful thus, even if it has come under the sunbeams, for [then] it is even more powerful.

Oriental position...or...angular...and it aspects Moon...it will make nativities powerful and ruling
_______


Joint possession is whenever the one jointly possessing the sign is present in or aspects its own domicile

and the one that is jointly ruling is in joint possession of the sign

and it is jointly ruling when the sign is its domicile or exaltation

_________

Incongruity of positions is said whenever the diurnal occupy the domiciles or the exaltations of the nocturnal stars,

or when the nocturnal stars occupy those of the diurnal stars, or whenever the stars posited in the signs are defective,

and the rulers of the signs are afflicted, since they happen to be ineffective


___

Wow honestly that definition of jointly ruling signs *****.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
So umm... what's the use for proper faces? And what's the reasoning behind it having to be occidental to the sun and oriental to the Moon? wut.

Edit:
Okay, nevermind, I got it. It seems as if it's supposed to follow the arrangement of the thema mundi. Just count the planets after the arrangement ,starting from the Moon or Sun, for their proper face.

Okay now what? What does this do?
 
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petosiris

Banned
So umm... what's the use for proper faces? And what's the reasoning behind it having to be occidental to the sun and oriental to the Moon? wut.

Edit:
Okay, nevermind, I got it. It seems as if it's supposed to follow the arrangement of the thema mundi. Just count the planets after the arrangement ,starting from the Moon or Sun, for their proper face.

Okay now what? What does this do?

According to Ptolemy, that is one dignity equal to house, exaltation, triplicity and term. :smile:

According to Morin, it is one more ''worthless item'' invented by the Greeks and Arabs. :smile:
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Why do the weather/climate reasoning apply to depressions/fall and not to the concept of detriment? Are the solstice/equinox more relevant in this sense?
 

petosiris

Banned
Why do the weather/climate reasoning apply to depressions/fall and not to the concept of detriment? Are the solstice/equinox more relevant in this sense?

I think there are fine natural arguments to be had for detriment applying to houses, just as fall applies to exaltation, but not for triangles and terms, especially if you consider them equal.

There are some objections to be had as well - perhaps the admixtures of detriment are harmonious - for example Mars rejoicing in Taurus (nocturnal temperate sign), Venus rejoicing in Scorpio (nocturnal stormy sign), Sun rejoicing in Aquarius (wintry sign rather than autumnal). The houses are based on more quantitative/mixed differences (Leo is hot) than qualitative (Aries really increases heat). Maybe Cancer with its northern wind or Leo with its diurnal rulers is not as detrimental for Saturn as Aries with its qualitative anti-admixture.
 
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