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Unread 04-30-2019, 02:29 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

I have some placements in the 12th house that come close to a stellium, main ones being Mercury, Venus, and the Sun. The one thing I feel like I have suffered from in my life is a lack of a close friend circle or circle of friends. It seems like, especially in my college days, that I was the guy not invited to hang out and party with others even though I wanted to.

Sometimes, I cannot help but think that there might be people I do not know or someone I might have been reluctant to trust who is doing some damage to my reputation behind my back or spreading nasty rumors.

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Unread 04-30-2019, 08:49 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

One thing that can happen when the native has personal planets placed in the 12th, is confusion/uncertainty with personal relationships and friendships.

For example, you say that you were not 'invited' to hang out with the other students. But did they know you wanted to?

Sometimes 12th house natives put out the 'message' that they don't want to hang out, or are not interested or open to that friendship.

Sometimes 12th house Mercury/Venus placements create a situation of hyper sensitivity. You might have been accepted and welcome to attend parties, but were too sensitive or insecure to ask, or seem interested?
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Unread 04-30-2019, 01:23 PM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post

I have some placements in the 12th house
that come close to a stellium, main ones being
Mercury, Venus, and the Sun.
The one thing I feel like I have suffered from in my life
is a lack of a close friend circle or circle of friends.
It seems like, especially in my college days, that
I was the guy not invited to hang out and party with others
even though I wanted to.
Sometimes, I cannot help but think
that there might be people I do not know
or someone I might have been reluctant to trust
who is doing some damage to my reputation behind my back or spreading nasty rumors.
Realistically, that is entirely possible

Traditionally Main Rulerships of 12th house represent matters that are hidden, restrained, secret
incapable of action or of being fully understood.
Traditionally, it is a wholly unfortunate house

associated with sad events, sorrow, anguish of mind
tribulation, captivity, imprisonment, persecution, hard labour
all manner of affliction and self-undoing.

12th house represents places that are denied access to public view
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style
such as institutions or prisons.
12th has rulership over scandals
personal fears and skeletons in the family closet.
12th house significations include secret, unknown enemies
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them:
traitors, spies
weakness, infirmity and bondage.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html
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Unread 04-30-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

The 12th is termites quietly eating your house.
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Unread 04-30-2019, 08:28 PM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
One thing that can happen when the native has personal planets placed in the 12th, is confusion/uncertainty with personal relationships and friendships.

For example, you say that you were not 'invited' to hang out with the other students. But did they know you wanted to?

Sometimes 12th house natives put out the 'message' that they don't want to hang out, or are not interested or open to that friendship.

Sometimes 12th house Mercury/Venus placements create a situation of hyper sensitivity. You might have been accepted and welcome to attend parties, but were too sensitive or insecure to ask, or seem interested?
This.

My observation, based on people I've read for, is that people with twelfth house placements are no more likely than anyone else to have hidden enemies for real, but there's a marked tendency for twelfth house placements to correlate with belief that people are plotting against you, secretly hate you, conspiring to exclude you, etc. One example that I recently saw: an astro friend of mine asked if I saw any reason in her chart why women are often jealous of her. She has a tight Venus/Neptune conjunction in her twelfth house. My response: I see that she believes it, but not that it's actually true.

I actually know about some of these specific situations where she's believed that people (women in particular) were jealous of her and/or plotting against her. From what I see, it's rarely if ever true. But she tends to feel it's true.

If you have Neptune in this twelfth house mix, or in aspect to it, then you may be in a situation much like my friend's: tending to believe that you have secret enemies. I suppose Pluto could also contribute to that, if it is, again, either part of this twelfth house stellium or in aspect to it.

And here's another ace to turnover: you said these twelfth house planets include your sun. Are any of your other twelfth house planets combust? (A planet is combust if it's within 8.5 degrees of the sun, and more markedly combust the closer it is to the sun.) People with combust planets have the repeated experience of being overlooked. Not deliberately, not maliciously, just overlooked, and often enough that it might feel like you're somehow invisible.

An astrology teacher of mine told a story on herself to illustrate this concept: she once had a class with several students who had the same sun sign, and it wrapped up during their birthday month. On the last day, she wished them all happy birthday personally... but overlooked the one with a combust planet. This, when she had all their charts and also knew about the tendency for people with combust planets to get overlooked.

That, again, would mean that people aren't deliberately excluding you, but your own experience tells you that you get excluded. These same people, though, probably would include you if you reminded them to. If you yourself invited your friends to a party, they would probably come. (Or flake or forget, because friends do that, but you likely would get some people partying with you.)

Where I would expect the twelfth house to indicate genuine hidden enemies is in horary astrology, if the question asked is relevant to hidden enemies. But that's quite different from natal astrology.
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Unread 05-01-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post
I have some placements in the 12th house that come close to a stellium, main ones being Mercury, Venus, and the Sun. The one thing I feel like I have suffered from in my life is a lack of a close friend circle or circle of friends. It seems like, especially in my college days, that I was the guy not invited to hang out and party with others even though I wanted to.

Sometimes, I cannot help but think that there might be people I do not know or someone I might have been reluctant to trust who is doing some damage to my reputation behind my back or spreading nasty rumors.
I have Saturn, sun and Pluto in 12th house. I can honestly tell you I hate this house. When planets transit this house I find that all goes bad and I have no control over events and the only thing I can do is give in to the horrible situation. Example with my sun, I find I thoroughly enjoy maintaining my vitality through creative activities and the outdoors. I love being active and vibrant and fun and full of energy. But when a planet goes in that 12th (especially Mars and Saturn), I have hidden ppl everywhere taking a stab at me, trying to sabotage my efforts and working behind the scenes to eliminate my friends. No good came of my 12th house. As for parties, I found I was invited to all of my friends parties yet whenever it was my birthday party no one ever came. Same with weddings. I came and joyfully celebrated their weddings yet when I got married it caused rages of jealousy.
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Unread 05-05-2019, 11:44 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
This.

My observation, based on people I've read for, is that people with twelfth house placements are no more likely than anyone else to have hidden enemies for real, but there's a marked tendency for twelfth house placements to correlate with belief that people are plotting against you, secretly hate you, conspiring to exclude you, etc.
Or, on the contrary, to have secret friends or people who 'obsess' over you or quietly agree with you.

How can those people be hidden form you if the 12th House in itself signifies what is hidden and something personal resides in there? More than everything, failing to tap into your 12th House will leave you outside the scope of what you can feel, and so people representing the 12th House will seem 'secret' when in fact they're quite out there or within your scope of abilities to tell.

The greatest fear is feeling the essence of the 12th House and losing control, which means giving up a bit of yourself or cancelling your own emotions to more clearly feel others' or multiple possibilities. It sounds to me like one of the best compasses in life, and boy it hurts if you ignore the sensitive 'magnetic' needle and head in the wrong direction, but is that not normal?

I have Sun and Jupiter in the 12th and had Pluto transit it. It can be hard to take a glimpse at yourself and clean out people's 'projections', aka childhood might be hard, due to your mind being porous or senses easy to stimulate, and thus need time alone more than others to process everything; anyone who feels the need to do that and does it successfully though, becomes a little force on their own.

If you have a lot of gut feelings (aka inner push to do something different than the situation seems to suggest for the average person; or if something does not feel good or all right and indeed it proves not to be) the worst you can do, with placements in the 12th House, is to ignore it. Don't ram into it straight away either, just try to understand why rather than push it into a corner and let it 'rot'. Keep your structures strong because:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The 12th is termites quietly eating your house.
: termites mostly survive on dead wood

Remember this ain't you getting besieged by Meanie Planets & co. Other people can be very, very clueless and inconsiderate of what they are doing, if you don't clearly show them what's wrong with their actions. Sometimes, so can you (we).

Last edited by Andrea_; 05-05-2019 at 11:55 AM.
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Unread 05-06-2019, 08:43 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Hi,
I have a personal explanation for the 12th house. I call it 'the cupboard under the stairs' or the 'the lost and found dept.'

Each represent a part of us that we think is either not serviceable or useful to us.

E.g.
We throw the soccer ball or Mary doll into the cupboard when we think we have no need of them (anymore) and forget about them.
Have they lost their importance in our life?

We travel on a train, our thoughts and feelings more dominantly apparent, and get off, leaving the rucksack on the baggage rack. Does or doesn't it contain anything of value worth saving?

When circumstances arise that make us want to find that which is forgotten about or lost, metaphorically, we open the cupboard door or go to the Found Dept. at the station.

I.O.W, we have the ability to look deep into ourselves and find that that for which we are searching IS there all the time .
12th house secret enemy is too often ourself.
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Unread 05-06-2019, 09:24 AM
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The 12th house is the sub conscious part of the brain. It is inaccessible unless in hypnosis and with shock.
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Unread 05-06-2019, 08:44 PM
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I have powerful dreams/premonitions/psychic visions at times. I believe this is Pluto in 12th playing out. I think it's my most powerful asset. My dreams will either warn me about bad things to come or will try to educate me on a matter. Eg: I used to get dreams warning me that my mother in law was planning an attack on me (many times) and it turned out to be true. So I started to become proactive with use of my dreams so I could avoid being shark bate. Another example is a dream I had recently which advised me how to lose weight and be healthy. How the f does that information get there? I'm curious whether that knowledge is hidden in me or if they are coming from my guides
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Unread 05-06-2019, 09:06 PM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
The 12th house is the sub conscious part of the brain. It is inaccessible unless in hypnosis and with shock.
I think of that as eighth house. To my mind, hypnosis and shock are very eighth house things.

Both houses deal with secrets and the unconscious. The twelfth house is the much more deeply buried kind of secret, and the deeper unconscious. Eighth house secrets can be uncovered with some digging. If we're talking about secrets carried in the unconscious mind, hypnosis would be that kind of digging. Shock might bring it to the surface as well (or might be the reaction to having it suddenly brought to the surface).

Twelfth house secrets are the ones that no longer can be uncovered, at least not in any verifiable way. They're the secrets that have gone to the grave with ancestors who died before you were born.

Both houses are also about ancestral secrets, traumas, and patterns (as is the fourth). In the twelfth, the exact story is never going to be revealed, and it probably goes back a lot longer. In the eighth, we might be talking about the family secret your grandmother kept (and maybe she's still alive and could tell it, or left a letter that reveals it... something like that). In the twelfth, it could be something that was left behind in the old country (if you're a descendant of immigrants, twelfth house stories are inevitable).
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Unread 05-06-2019, 09:10 PM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
I have powerful dreams/premonitions/psychic visions at times. I believe this is Pluto in 12th playing out. I think it's my most powerful asset. My dreams will either warn me about bad things to come or will try to educate me on a matter. Eg: I used to get dreams warning me that my mother in law was planning an attack on me (many times) and it turned out to be true. So I started to become proactive with use of my dreams so I could avoid being shark bate. Another example is a dream I had recently which advised me how to lose weight and be healthy. How the f does that information get there? I'm curious whether that knowledge is hidden in me or if they are coming from my guides
What are your guides? Are they part of you? Or external? Maybe both?

Perhaps it doesn't matter. All that matters is you're tuned into your twelfth house and getting that information.

The important thing is to differentiate between what part, of that information you're receiving, is literally true, and what is coming from your imagination. The twelfth house can give us both of those gifts, and it can be hard to tell them apart. Sometimes what you see in dreams is actually happening. Sometimes it's symbolic: not something that literally is happening or will, but it represents something that's happening or will. And sometimes it's just a reflection of your own hopes or fears.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
What are your guides? Are they part of you? Or external? Maybe both?

Perhaps it doesn't matter. All that matters is you're tuned into your twelfth house and getting that information.

The important thing is to differentiate between what part, of that information you're receiving, is literally true, and what is coming from your imagination. The twelfth house can give us both of those gifts, and it can be hard to tell them apart. Sometimes what you see in dreams is actually happening. Sometimes it's symbolic: not something that literally is happening or will, but it represents something that's happening or will. And sometimes it's just a reflection of your own hopes or fears.
I wish it was my imagination. But then I think about what I've learnt from my dreams and they've saved me from danger. So now I see it as an asset and I listen to them.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I think of that as eighth house. To my mind, hypnosis and shock are very eighth house things.

Both houses deal with secrets and the unconscious. The twelfth house is the much more deeply buried kind of secret, and the deeper unconscious. Eighth house secrets can be uncovered with some digging. If we're talking about secrets carried in the unconscious mind, hypnosis would be that kind of digging. Shock might bring it to the surface as well (or might be the reaction to having it suddenly brought to the surface).

Twelfth house secrets are the ones that no longer can be uncovered, at least not in any verifiable way. They're the secrets that have gone to the grave with ancestors who died before you were born.

Both houses are also about ancestral secrets, traumas, and patterns (as is the fourth). In the twelfth, the exact story is never going to be revealed, and it probably goes back a lot longer. In the eighth, we might be talking about the family secret your grandmother kept (and maybe she's still alive and could tell it, or left a letter that reveals it... something like that). In the twelfth, it could be something that was left behind in the old country (if you're a descendant of immigrants, twelfth house stories are inevitable).
I agree that 8th house is to do with psychology. Psychologists deal with a lot of disorders. For me, it was when Saturn went into 12th house that I had to do a psychotherapy session with a psychology University teacher. She told me she worked on my subconscious. However when I have transits to 8th house I have nothing come up at all. For me, 8th house had more to do with money, inheritance and financial losses.

I do believe the 12th house is definitely accessible through the technique that psychologist used.

Last edited by Abby83; 05-07-2019 at 01:06 AM.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 01:29 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Contemporary astrology prefers to read the chart chiefly in a psychological way. Imagination and psychology are by no means the only "inner", but I know this is not the mainstream position.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 01:59 AM
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Contemporary astrology prefers to read the chart chiefly in a psychological way. Imagination and psychology are by no means the only "inner", but I know this is not the mainstream position.
I have no idea what this means.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 02:02 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

The mysticism and magic of the 12th house
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Unread 05-07-2019, 02:29 AM
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The mysticism and magic of the 12th house
But about the inner?
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Unread 05-07-2019, 02:37 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
I have powerful dreams/premonitions/psychic visions at times. I believe this is Pluto in 12th playing out. I think it's my most powerful asset. My dreams will either warn me about bad things to come or will try to educate me on a matter. Eg: I used to get dreams warning me that my mother in law was planning an attack on me (many times) and it turned out to be true. So I started to become proactive with use of my dreams so I could avoid being shark bate. Another example is a dream I had recently which advised me how to lose weight and be healthy. How the f does that information get there? I'm curious whether that knowledge is hidden in me or if they are coming from my guides
I have Saturn in 12H and I don't believe in my intuition, although it is sometimes true. I can sense people, but I can also be as easily swayed when they say I'm wrong. You also have 12H Saturn too, so do you share the same experience? Maybe the 12H is about finding your power beyond this world through the planet falling into it. Could the lesson for us 12H Saturn be to stop doubting our intuition?



On a more general note, the 12H looks like the house that people are the most uncomfortable. In our age of science, everyone wants concrete proof to believe in everything. The 12H tells us some things can't be explained, at least not in our scientific way, and it doesn't sit well with people. But there was a time when astrology was held at the same esteem as science, even though it can't be explained by science. Is the 12H calling for us to stop analyzing everything and just let the higher force deal with it?



Maybe the point of the 12H is it doesn't need to be explained. Some things are best left in the dark.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 02:41 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

@ Abby

Inner referring to what happens "in your mind" or "inside yourself" . So it is taken as a certainty, at least in modern life, that the only things that are happening inside of yourself are just your overactive imagination or your psychological processes. There are objective places that requires you to use your imagination as an interface, at least in the initial stages.

I'm also a so-called 12th houser.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 02:47 AM
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Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

But then you have at least the psychological explanation given by Jung of the collective unconscious, which is the objective repository shared by all humanity - Jung referring to one's conscious, personal unconscious and collective unconscious as broadly the psyche. This is point where one can feel that there are trying to look at the back of their head with their own eyes (without the help of a mirror)
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Unread 05-07-2019, 03:35 AM
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But then you have at least the psychological explanation given by Jung of the collective unconscious, which is the objective repository shared by all humanity - Jung referring to one's conscious, personal unconscious and collective unconscious as broadly the psyche. This is point where one can feel that there are trying to look at the back of their head with their own eyes (without the help of a mirror)
Oh that makes sense now.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
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@ Abby

Inner referring to what happens "in your mind" or "inside yourself" . So it is taken as a certainty, at least in modern life, that the only things that are happening inside of yourself are just your overactive imagination or your psychological processes. There are objective places that requires you to use your imagination as an interface, at least in the initial stages.

I'm also a so-called 12th houser.
Well then I must be experiencing some pretty psychic s**t. I'm not sure if my unconscious mind is that smart when the dreams give me advise. I honestly believe my spirit guides are giving the info to me. There's no way I could know that stuff. I just wish the dreams would come when I want it. Eg: the last 6 yrs I've battled with my weight, and I finally got a dream a few days ago telling me what to do.

Last edited by Abby83; 05-07-2019 at 04:30 AM.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 03:42 AM
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I have Saturn in 12H and I don't believe in my intuition, although it is sometimes true. I can sense people, but I can also be as easily swayed when they say I'm wrong. You also have 12H Saturn too, so do you share the same experience? Maybe the 12H is about finding your power beyond this world through the planet falling into it. Could the lesson for us 12H Saturn be to stop doubting our intuition?



On a more general note, the 12H looks like the house that people are the most uncomfortable. In our age of science, everyone wants concrete proof to believe in everything. The 12H tells us some things can't be explained, at least not in our scientific way, and it doesn't sit well with people. But there was a time when astrology was held at the same esteem as science, even though it can't be explained by science. Is the 12H calling for us to stop analyzing everything and just let the higher force deal with it?



Maybe the point of the 12H is it doesn't need to be explained. Some things are best left in the dark.
I do have natal Saturn in 12th house. But... It was only when Saturn transiting this house age 29 that I experienced the weirdest stuff. Which is when I started listening to those dreams and visions. Why? Cos they came true. A couple of yrs ago I even woke up at 2am seeing vision of someone on AW having a nasty attack on me and I saw the mod trying to intervene. Then I checked the site and it was true. The transit is long over btw, but I continue to pay attention to those visions/dreams. I think the 12th house transit forced me to pay attention cos at that time the dreams were weekly and it freaked me the heck out. But it was necessary weekly, cos I have a mother in law who was also focusing on me. Everytime she thought of me I could feel it and see what she was thinking. Then I'd look to astrology and see that the upcoming event was not going to be good.

Re your 2nd paragraph - OMG yes!! I have learnt my intuition is stronger. Sooo many ppl lie and in the end my intuition told me otherwise.

Last edited by Abby83; 05-07-2019 at 03:53 AM.
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Unread 05-07-2019, 04:09 AM
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Question Re: 12th house, your own worst enemy or an actual hidden enemy?

My natal 12th house is divided by Gemini and Cancer (my part of fortune is 11', above the ASC node, 17' 33"). Analysis of someone's or anyone's 12h can tell something about them kept from them for the longest time. And my Juno is in 14' caught between the POF and rising point (Cancer being my personal sign).
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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