house element
- Thread starter paul
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Oddity
Well-known member
In modern astrology, the 4th, 8th, and 12th are considered by some astrologers to always be 'water houses'. 1st, 5th, and 9th are fire, 2nd, 6th, and 10th are earth, and 3rd, 7th, and 11th are airy.
In traditional astrology there is no such correlation.
In either of those, angular - succedent - cadent holds, with 1, 4, 7, and 10 being the angular houses, 2, 5, 8, and 11 being succedent, and 3, 6, 9, and 12 being cadent.
I am not aware of anyone using 'mutable' to describe houses. The term describes the signs of Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, and Pisces. In traditional astrology those are usually called 'common' signs, but the idea is the same.
In traditional astrology there is no such correlation.
In either of those, angular - succedent - cadent holds, with 1, 4, 7, and 10 being the angular houses, 2, 5, 8, and 11 being succedent, and 3, 6, 9, and 12 being cadent.
I am not aware of anyone using 'mutable' to describe houses. The term describes the signs of Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, and Pisces. In traditional astrology those are usually called 'common' signs, but the idea is the same.
well according to http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/elements.php, they have, for instance, fixed/5th house/leo=/fire another is mutable/3rd house/ Gemini=/air...so, if Pisces is ruling the 5th house, does that house remain fixed? for the coupling of fixed/5th house/Pisces/water? (the water fixed I was talking about)
also my apologies. in the first post I asked if the element changes. that was supposed to say: does the quality of the house change, when a different sign is on the house that that house is use to.
I'm going to go with 1,4,7 & 10 are forever cardinal, regardless of what sign lives in that house. 2,5,8 & 11 are forever fixed and 3,6,9 & 12 are for ever mutable....
but I really would like to hear other inputs on this matter.
that would also make the 12 box grid to the right of your free chart astrodienst incorrect. you may want to go back and try putting them in their "correct postions" and compare before and after, and use your unbiased intuition on it.
thanks
I'm going to go with 1,4,7 & 10 are forever cardinal, regardless of what sign lives in that house. 2,5,8 & 11 are forever fixed and 3,6,9 & 12 are for ever mutable....
but I really would like to hear other inputs on this matter.
that would also make the 12 box grid to the right of your free chart astrodienst incorrect. you may want to go back and try putting them in their "correct postions" and compare before and after, and use your unbiased intuition on it.
thanks
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
1,4,7,10 are more important and active areas of the chart
but not necessarily 'cardinal'
If 1,4,7,10 are forever 'cardinal'
then why bother with obtaining a time of birth to find ascendant sign
ascendant 1st house could be cardinal, fixed or mutable
the purpose of finding and ascendant sign is in my opinion VERY important. will tell you how to flavor that fixed sign with the attributes of that sign. also thing about the decanates. for instance sun in first house Leo, 2nd decanate would make this person Leo with Sagittarius from there you would check the position of Jupiter and continue delineating in such a fashion until come to what I call a "loop" then you move on to another planet or asteroid...well at least that is my technique.....also it is very important for the solar year for a day method...so that's why I think you should find what correct sign lives in each house.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
you have declared that the ascendant sign "is very important"
but that negates your idea that the 1st house "is forever cardinal"
i.e.
ascendant sign may not be cardinal at all
Oddity
Well-known member
I think it's just a silly misunderstanding of terms.
Angular, succedent, and cadent apply to houses.
Cardinal, fixed, and mutable apply to signs.
I'm sure the folks at astro.com know this.
Why are you trying to switch them, though? What would be the difference between, say, a mutable house and a cadent house? What's the import? If I've not misread you here.
It is quite possible to have an angular house with a fixed sign on the cusp, etc., if that's what you mean.
Angular, succedent, and cadent apply to houses.
Cardinal, fixed, and mutable apply to signs.
I'm sure the folks at astro.com know this.
Why are you trying to switch them, though? What would be the difference between, say, a mutable house and a cadent house? What's the import? If I've not misread you here.
It is quite possible to have an angular house with a fixed sign on the cusp, etc., if that's what you mean.
you have declared that the ascendant sign "is very important"
but that negates your idea that the 1st house "is forever cardinal"
i.e.
ascendant sign may not be cardinal at all
So, to my understanding the first house is, in just some key words: physical body, perception, general approach. Now the terms of cardinal: initiator, active, leaders, impatient, self-starters. Now all those key words with (maybe the exception of physical body) sounds very verb-ish (for lack of better word ha). By the very nature of the physical make-up and what it was set up to govern, you cant help but make this house always cardinal
So then what would you make of this in your opinion?
The qualities are CARDINAL, FIXED and MUTABLE, also known as the Quadruplicities.
Cardinal Fixed Mutable 1st House/Aries =fire 2nd House/Taurus =earth 3rd House/Gemini =air 4th House/Cancer =water 5th House/Leo =fire 6th House/Virgo =earth 7th House/Libra =air 8th House/Scorpio =water 9th House/Sagittarius =fire 10th House/Capricorn =earth 11th House/Aquarius =air 12th House/Pisces =water
Why are you trying to switch them, though? What would be the difference between, say, a mutable house and a cadent house? What's the import? If I've not misread you here.
Not really trying to switch them permanently at this point. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something that's all. I'm about accuracy of it all. I told you about my bad experience with placidus ha (and other things) but if im woofing up the wrong tree id like to know that too.
but as I look more at it...could it be 5th house fixed, pisces water mutable? = fixed/water AND mutable at the same time???
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Main Rulerships of 1st House
Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.
Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech.
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.
As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler indicates the level of personal vitality and strength http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
Angular Succedent and Cadent Houses
Whilst we use the words "cardinal, fixed and mutable" to describe the signs, we use the words angular, succedent and cadent to refer to the analogous house positions.
The sequence of angular, succedent, cadent is like this: the being appears in the world, or does something, and as a result brings together many things. Finally these are lost, given away, or go away. This recurs in cycles. Another way of saying this, is that we begin something, and as a consequence we acquire things or abilities; that is, things of value. Finally, we reflect on what we have acquired or learned, and use this to determine what we will do next, and how we will do it.
Angular Houses
The word "angular", refers to the main angles of the chart. It refers to the first, fourth, seventh and tenth houses. The keyword for the Angular Houses is "self". The self means "the self as...", in contrast with "selfish". Another keyword is powerful, because the angular houses are thought to be more powerful. The angular houses tell us how we deal with reality, how we begin things.
For the first house it is the potential personal self, body or appearance. If Venus is in the first house, we tend to present ourselves in a harmonious and diplomatic manner.
In the fourth house, it is the family, or self as family, It means the self we have created including: the past, the genetic origins, memory, self-development, etc.
In the seventh house it is the self in relation to others (interpersonal) (my other half).
In the tenth it is the public self (Fame, notoriety), or self as seen by the public.
Succedent Houses
The word "succedent" means "following or succeeding". (succeed means to follow or to attain success). The succedent houses are the second, fifth, eighth and the eleventh. The keyword for the succedent houses is "collection". Things are grouped together. A collection can mean raising money. It means gathering things together, when done for protection it means security. A direct consequence of collecting things is organisation. We need to organise. This implies the management of what we have and the development of our resources. And all of this can be a pleasure, if only because we can enjoy our acquisitions.
The second house is often associated with personal, movable wealth. Naturally, what we accumulate depends on what we value. And the second house is concerned with what we value, including ourselves and our self-worth. It concerns matters which we have earned.
The fifth house often refers to pleasures, which are the result of some activity. It is concerned with love and romance, and with all kinds of entertainment, including games, sport and gambling. It also concerns children. In other words, it is the house of delightful things we have collected, either physically, mentally or spiritually: pet ideas, delightful studies, sports and games (that delight us), and of course, our beloved children.
The eighth house sometimes refers to shared resources, including legacies. The eighth house is concerned with sex, and also with recuperation - how quickly we can bounce back from illness, etc. It concerns health, other people's money including credit cards and other loans, and social values. It is the things we have collected from other people.
The eleventh house refers to friends and groups, which we have "collected". It is also concerned with hopes and wishes, what we want to have (collect). It is concerned with the future, and as such involves the values which we hope society will adopt.
Cadent Houses
Cadent means "falling, or coming to an end or resolution". The cadent houses are the third, sixth, ninth and twelfth. The keyword for cadent is "dispersal". One meaning of dispersal is "giving out". When a group of people separate and go their separate ways, we say they disperse. Another way to express this is in terms of reflection (thinking)and consequences. Having taken action as some being, we gain security, or gather together values and having succeeded (or not) we reflect upon (think seriously about) the cycle of action and deal with the consequences.
In the cadent houses, we think about what has gone before and what we will do, or what will happen in the future. Here we do our thinking before we take the next action. In the world, the cadent houses come at a time when the seasons are changing from one to the other. In the natal chart we think about the past and the future in a more or less critical, detailed and impersonal fashion, with the intention of using what we have learned to take our next steps in life.
The third house is concerned with communication, which in one sense could mean we disperse our knowledge and experience to others. After thinking about things, we go here and there and share our knowledge, and also to gain more knowledge. This is not deep knowledge, which is the concern of the ninth house, and may be simply facts and information. Literature and verbal communication are stressed.
The sixth house is the House Of Service, where we willingly give our personal resources and skills to help others. We think seriously about matters of work, routines and health, and as a result we share this knowledge, mostly in the sense of doing things for others.
The ninth house concerns philosophy and higher learning, where we give our time and effort to expand one's potential. Here we think very deeply about things and travel long distances in order to gain knowledge.
The twelfth house can refer to karma and spiritual matters. This is a house of non-self, which means it is concerned with large, impersonal, institutions, such as hospitals, prisons, large bureaucracies, the civil service, etc. That is areas where they claim to serve rather than seek a profit, and where the workers and managers are somewhat anonymous. Here we think of unselfish service.
This also adds up to hidden matters. Sometimes this is because the good is not published (selfless service, modesty), and sometimes it is because the bad is concealed. But it also refers to hidden matters which are being uncovered, or research in science, or something else. It refers to activities behind the scenes, for good or bad.
Anyone who reviews their life, is likely to think of things that they did not do, which they wished they had done, and things they did do, and wished they hadn't. This can result in some sorrow, and can also result in guilt or shame. It can also result in pride and satisfaction when we think of the good things we did (or even the temptations we resisted).
The twelfth house is also concerned with health, either as a profession, or how we deal with illness. It is also concerned with meditation (impersonal), self-sacrifice (selflessness) and charity (selfless giving).
The twelfth house also indicates areas where we have secret enemies, which could be those aspects of ourselves which lead to our undoing.
Succedent really sounds like "FIXED" to me. "Things we've collected..."
Cadent really sounds like "MUTABLE". "Things falling and coming to and end.."
So now I'm more familiar with these terms I think I have enough to go on here..
I have to say Oddity is right in his reply about the differing terms
oh and i'm trying to change them because astrodeinst has my merc, mars, sat, pof as water/cardinal....which clearly, from what I have ascertained in this short time, is not correct...it should read water fixed or succedent
Whilst we use the words "cardinal, fixed and mutable" to describe the signs, we use the words angular, succedent and cadent to refer to the analogous house positions.
The sequence of angular, succedent, cadent is like this: the being appears in the world, or does something, and as a result brings together many things. Finally these are lost, given away, or go away. This recurs in cycles. Another way of saying this, is that we begin something, and as a consequence we acquire things or abilities; that is, things of value. Finally, we reflect on what we have acquired or learned, and use this to determine what we will do next, and how we will do it.
Angular Houses
The word "angular", refers to the main angles of the chart. It refers to the first, fourth, seventh and tenth houses. The keyword for the Angular Houses is "self". The self means "the self as...", in contrast with "selfish". Another keyword is powerful, because the angular houses are thought to be more powerful. The angular houses tell us how we deal with reality, how we begin things.
For the first house it is the potential personal self, body or appearance. If Venus is in the first house, we tend to present ourselves in a harmonious and diplomatic manner.
In the fourth house, it is the family, or self as family, It means the self we have created including: the past, the genetic origins, memory, self-development, etc.
In the seventh house it is the self in relation to others (interpersonal) (my other half).
In the tenth it is the public self (Fame, notoriety), or self as seen by the public.
Succedent Houses
The word "succedent" means "following or succeeding". (succeed means to follow or to attain success). The succedent houses are the second, fifth, eighth and the eleventh. The keyword for the succedent houses is "collection". Things are grouped together. A collection can mean raising money. It means gathering things together, when done for protection it means security. A direct consequence of collecting things is organisation. We need to organise. This implies the management of what we have and the development of our resources. And all of this can be a pleasure, if only because we can enjoy our acquisitions.
The second house is often associated with personal, movable wealth. Naturally, what we accumulate depends on what we value. And the second house is concerned with what we value, including ourselves and our self-worth. It concerns matters which we have earned.
The fifth house often refers to pleasures, which are the result of some activity. It is concerned with love and romance, and with all kinds of entertainment, including games, sport and gambling. It also concerns children. In other words, it is the house of delightful things we have collected, either physically, mentally or spiritually: pet ideas, delightful studies, sports and games (that delight us), and of course, our beloved children.
The eighth house sometimes refers to shared resources, including legacies. The eighth house is concerned with sex, and also with recuperation - how quickly we can bounce back from illness, etc. It concerns health, other people's money including credit cards and other loans, and social values. It is the things we have collected from other people.
The eleventh house refers to friends and groups, which we have "collected". It is also concerned with hopes and wishes, what we want to have (collect). It is concerned with the future, and as such involves the values which we hope society will adopt.
Cadent Houses
Cadent means "falling, or coming to an end or resolution". The cadent houses are the third, sixth, ninth and twelfth. The keyword for cadent is "dispersal". One meaning of dispersal is "giving out". When a group of people separate and go their separate ways, we say they disperse. Another way to express this is in terms of reflection (thinking)and consequences. Having taken action as some being, we gain security, or gather together values and having succeeded (or not) we reflect upon (think seriously about) the cycle of action and deal with the consequences.
In the cadent houses, we think about what has gone before and what we will do, or what will happen in the future. Here we do our thinking before we take the next action. In the world, the cadent houses come at a time when the seasons are changing from one to the other. In the natal chart we think about the past and the future in a more or less critical, detailed and impersonal fashion, with the intention of using what we have learned to take our next steps in life.
The third house is concerned with communication, which in one sense could mean we disperse our knowledge and experience to others. After thinking about things, we go here and there and share our knowledge, and also to gain more knowledge. This is not deep knowledge, which is the concern of the ninth house, and may be simply facts and information. Literature and verbal communication are stressed.
The sixth house is the House Of Service, where we willingly give our personal resources and skills to help others. We think seriously about matters of work, routines and health, and as a result we share this knowledge, mostly in the sense of doing things for others.
The ninth house concerns philosophy and higher learning, where we give our time and effort to expand one's potential. Here we think very deeply about things and travel long distances in order to gain knowledge.
The twelfth house can refer to karma and spiritual matters. This is a house of non-self, which means it is concerned with large, impersonal, institutions, such as hospitals, prisons, large bureaucracies, the civil service, etc. That is areas where they claim to serve rather than seek a profit, and where the workers and managers are somewhat anonymous. Here we think of unselfish service.
This also adds up to hidden matters. Sometimes this is because the good is not published (selfless service, modesty), and sometimes it is because the bad is concealed. But it also refers to hidden matters which are being uncovered, or research in science, or something else. It refers to activities behind the scenes, for good or bad.
Anyone who reviews their life, is likely to think of things that they did not do, which they wished they had done, and things they did do, and wished they hadn't. This can result in some sorrow, and can also result in guilt or shame. It can also result in pride and satisfaction when we think of the good things we did (or even the temptations we resisted).
The twelfth house is also concerned with health, either as a profession, or how we deal with illness. It is also concerned with meditation (impersonal), self-sacrifice (selflessness) and charity (selfless giving).
The twelfth house also indicates areas where we have secret enemies, which could be those aspects of ourselves which lead to our undoing.
Succedent really sounds like "FIXED" to me. "Things we've collected..."
Cadent really sounds like "MUTABLE". "Things falling and coming to and end.."
So now I'm more familiar with these terms I think I have enough to go on here..
I have to say Oddity is right in his reply about the differing terms
oh and i'm trying to change them because astrodeinst has my merc, mars, sat, pof as water/cardinal....which clearly, from what I have ascertained in this short time, is not correct...it should read water fixed or succedent
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Oddity's explanation is on target I agree
MUTABLE doesn't mean "things falling and coming to an end"
MUTABLE is more related to ADAPTABLE