What are you learning from COVID?

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
But only a tiny percentage of the population will choose vegan milk. Not even in india, were cows are considered gods do they make that choice. Your suggestion is impractical and it would never work. It is the nature of utopian thinking, it never works.

Ok so you don't like sticking metal rods into cows.

What is your position regarding castration for household and farm animals? By your logic, we don't have a right to castrate cats and dogs.

Pets should be banned too. It’s just another form of slavery and yes they end up needing castrated and bred to meet demand and it is so unethical.

I have pets though.

Also, I feel passionate about this subject because I truly believe animals should be protected more. But like I hinted to Aquarius and will reply in more detail tomorrow with (bed time now), it is god’s plan and I should instead keep my vibration high.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

aquarius7000 said:
Also, apologies, but the one carrot that is being dangled - post abortion depression is so weak against a child not having a proper mother when born.
Is a 14 yr old capable of taking care of new life that requires 24/7? Can she look after that child 24/7? Can she feed the child, etc etc etc? Can she financially fend for the child at 14?

Is it ok for the child to be born with a 14 yr, given the above, to not be able to fend for it in any way possible and the father simply not being there? You seem ok with it? So you are telling me you care for that new life? That you care for a life already present on earth = the 14 yr old?

What about the 14 year old's body bearing the burden of the pregnancy 9 whole months? You think that is going to be any less than a potential post-abortion depression?

Do you realise that pregnancy is the result of a rape? Honestly

I suppose in your view being dead is a better outcome for a person, than growing up without parents.

So you are essentially saying you are willing sacrifice the child's life, for the teen's sake, because you feel sorry for her. And you see that as "moral". It seems that because the child can't be seen or heard, he doesn't really get say in that decision doesn't he?

aquarius7000 said:
And yes, as the world stands today, as mentioned, given all the homeless, hungry children in the world (have you travelled?) I would even commend a couple that has unprotected sex and get pregnant (though I find that behaviour highly irresponsible) to abort the child IF they know that they do not want or cannot provide for the new life.

Any way carry on as you will on this subject. This is so futile a discussion and I am stunned, no appalled actually, having it and having to actually point all of the above out in such detail - in 2020.

If according to your logic those starving children should have been aborted, why not allow parents to kill off their children after they are born? After all they are still unwanted, still can't fend for themselves, and still live in dire conditions.

Whats the diference in your view?

I'm sorry aquarius, but your arguments are a bit too cliche. They've been around since nazi germany.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

Ukpoohbear said:
Pets should be banned too. It’s just another form of slavery and yes they end up needing castrated and bred to meet demand and it is so unethical.

I have pets though.

Also, I feel passionate about this subject because I truly believe animals should be protected more. But like I hinted to Aquarius and will reply in more detail tomorrow with (bed time now), it is god’s plan and I should instead keep my vibration high.

are your pets castrated? Would you ban animal castration instead?

At this point some species of animals are domesticated, and without castration they will forever be around. SO you can't "ban" dogs.

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
are your pets castrated? Would you ban animal castration instead?

At this point some species of animals are domesticated, and without castration they will forever be around. SO you can't "ban" dogs.

All my cats are pedigree so they would be high risk to be bred for money so they all came castrated. What should happen is breeding of pets should be banned.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

Ukpoohbear said:
All my cats are pedigree so they would be high risk to be bred for money so they all came castrated. What should happen is breeding of pets should be banned.

In order to ban pets, you would need to castrate them so they die out without offspring. If you let them reproduce, they won't die out - and they will still require human assitance, cause they can't survive in the wild.

So you would be in favour of castration under those conditions?

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
In order to ban pets, you would need to castrate them so they die out without offspring. If you let them reproduce, they won't die out - and they will still require human assitance, cause they can't survive in the wild.

So you would be in favour of castration under those conditions?

I do agree pets should be neutered anyway so stop humans using them to breed and breed with. So yeah, neuter all of them. Are you implying I have violent tendencies so am a hypocrite?

Dirius · May 3, 2020

Ukpoohbear said:
I do agree pets should be neutered anyway so stop humans using them to breed and breed with. So yeah, neuter all of them. Are you implying I have violent tendencies so am a hypocrite?

Not at all, but it seems you don't consider that a form of rape.

Nor are you concerned with the psychological impact loosing a part of his body might bring on the animal, for nothing else besides human convenience.

But it seems that acts of cruely against animals are ok as long as they align with your interests?

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
Not at all, but it seems you don't consider that a form of rape.

Nor are you concerned with the psychological impact loosing a part of his body might bring on the animal, for nothing else besides human convenience.

But it seems that acts of cruely against animals are ok as long as they align with your interests?

No, you were tricking me Dirius and are forgetting the point, that animals need our help and you are trying to project blame away from yourself because you already admitted the meat and dairy industry is unethical. Stop trying to using your thinking capacity to trick, yes it is good to be smart but don’t forget too much living there and you are living in your ego, try to live in your heart. When humanity wakes up to that truth, maybe then animals can be treated with love.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

Ukpoohbear said:
No, you were tricking me Dirius and are forgetting the point, that animals need our help and you are trying to project blame away from yourself because you already admitted the meat and dairy industry is unethical. Stop trying to using your thinking capacity to trick, yes it is good to be smart but don’t forget too much living there and you are living in your ego, try to live in your heart. When humanity wakes up to that truth, maybe then animals can be treated with love.

How am I tricking you? I just asked your position regarding animal body modification. Which seems you are ok with it, at least in some cases.

Why is your situation ok and not cruelty?

Its called cognitive dissonance, you'll get over it.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

By the way I'm not calling you a "hypocrate". That would imply you were aware of your contradiction, which doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think bad of you for having that position, just trying to show you it may not be in acordance with other positions you may held, in regards to animal treatment.

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

I don’t have all the answers though but at least I am willing to take action so they align with my morals which is what you should do. I am aware of my dark and light sides. I would kill if I saw someone be cruel to an animal. How is that for cognitive dissonance.

aquarius7000 · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
I suppose in your view being dead is a better outcome for a person, than growing up without parents.

So you are essentially saying you are willing sacrifice the child's life, for the teen's sake, because you feel sorry for her. And you see that as "moral". It seems that because the child can't be seen or heard, he doesn't really get say in that decision doesn't he?

If according to your logic those starving children should have been aborted, why not allow parents to kill off their children after they are born? After all they are still unwanted, still can't fend for themselves, and still live in dire conditions.

Whats the diference in your view?

I'm sorry aquarius, but your arguments are a bit too cliche. They've been around since nazi germany.

How about focusing on resolving the issue rather than misconstruing and twisting the words around to boost one's own ego.

Also, what you keep saying as "also in your view" has nothing to do with my as far as the sense of it goes, but more to do with how you like to play around with words and twist them around to come back with more ammunition. Be as it may, that psychology won't get me to say what you want to hear.

Nonetheless, to respond to this bit:

If according to your logic those starving children should have been aborted, why not allow parents to kill off their children after they are born? After all they are still unwanted, still can't fend for themselves, and still live in dire conditions.

To put it in a straight shot manner, which I actually did already, if two adults had behaved maturely, not had unprotected sex, there would have been less un-cared for, starving children in the streets.
If rape victims were not forced to continue with their pregnancy, there would have be less un-cared for, starving children in the streets

IF adult couples- hat have the means to support half a dozen children, instead chose to still not be pregnant and adopt instead, or if the urge to continue their hereditary lineage and experience pregnancy is so great, then have a child of their own and adopt at least one street child - again less un-cared for, starving children in the streets!!!

I see not point in bringing more children into this world - when we cannot care for the ones that already exist. Full stop.

There are soooo many children out there that have no one to look after them, don't get one warm meal a day sometimes, roam around naked, sleep like that in the cold streets... and here we are discussing why rape victims should bear more children- can it get any more pathetic. Families that live under the poverty line (but went ahead with their pregnancy- perhaps in less developed societies and who did not know better) and have multiple children, yes, some would rather give up a child and let them have a better life. We have adopted such a child in my family!!

Good luck to you to be able to apply more logic and compassion in this matter.

david starling · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
By the way I'm not calling you a "hypocrate". That would imply you were aware of your contradiction, which doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think bad of you for having that position, just trying to show you it may not be in acordance with other positions you may held, in regards to animal treatment.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."-{Matthew 7:12}

Sounds like good advice. Whether that applies to other species would depend upon whether or not one considers them as "fellow creatures".

leomoon · May 3, 2020

Interesting:

The story of Jesus multiplying fish and bread, not to mention the Passover lamb, argues against vegetarianism too. In a vision to the apostle Peter, Jesus declared all foods to be clean, including animals (Acts 10:10-15).Was Jesus a Vegetarian? | Did Jesus Eat Meat? - Beliefnet

www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/was-jesus-a-vegetarian.aspx

For those who care about such things as his teachings:

Matthew 15:11 11What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."
Matthew 15:17-18 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them.

Dirius · May 3, 2020

aquarius7000 said:
How about focusing on resolving the issue rather than misconstruing and twisting the words around to boost one's own ego.

Also, what you keep saying as "also in your view" has nothing to do with my as far as the sense of it goes, but more to do with how you like to play around with words and twist them around to come back with more ammunition. Be as it may, that psychology won't get me to say what you want to hear.

Nonetheless, to respond to this bit:

If according to your logic those starving children should have been aborted, why not allow parents to kill off their children after they are born? After all they are still unwanted, still can't fend for themselves, and still live in dire conditions.

To put it in a straight shot manner, which I actually did already, if two adults had behaved maturely, not had unprotected sex, there would have been less un-cared for, starving children in the streets.
If rape victims were not forced to continue with their pregnancy, there would have be less un-cared for, starving children in the streets

IF adult couples- hat have the means to support half a dozen children, instead chose to still not be pregnant and adopt instead, or if the urge to continue their hereditary lineage and experience pregnancy is so great, then have a child of their own and adopt at least one street child - again less un-cared for, starving children in the streets!!!

I see not point in bringing more children into this world - when we cannot care for the ones that already exist. Full stop.

There are soooo many children out there that have no one to look after them, don't get one warm meal a day sometimes, roam around naked, sleep like that in the cold streets... and here we are discussing why rape victims should bear more children- can it get any more pathetic. Families that live under the poverty line (but went ahead with their pregnancy- perhaps in less developed societies and who did not know better) and have multiple children, yes, some would rather give up a child and let them have a better life. We have adopted such a child in my family!!

Good luck to you to be able to apply more logic and compassion in this matter.

You are not really answering my points, you just deflect them by blabing a compassionate argument that has no substance, which is the reason why I need to ask if my interpretation of your words is correct. Truth is in your view, those children shouldn't be alive, and would have been better for everyone if they had been aborted. That what you've said.

But then you talk abou how it is cruel to eat animal meat ...

- So in your view it is ok to abort children, for the convenience of the mother

- But it is not ok to kill animals for consumption, for the convenience of people.

Seriously mate, what is wrong with you? :sideways:

Dirius · May 3, 2020

Ukpoohbear said:
I don’t have all the answers though but at least I am willing to take action so they align with my morals which is what you should do. I am aware of my dark and light sides. I would kill if I saw someone be cruel to an animal. How is that for cognitive dissonance.

But your morals are very changable then. You don't mind and act of violence against an animal (removing reproductive organs) if you believe it is for the greater good.

But some farmer can't take a cow's milk to feed people.

Why is your objective good and justifiable, but his isn't?

david starling · May 3, 2020

Industrialized Humans are no longer participants in the Balance of Nature. in fact, as a species using advanced technology, we're throwing it out of balance. Since we, ourselves, are creatures of Nature, it was bound to correct us sooner or later.

aquarius7000 · May 3, 2020

You are not really listening. All your questions have been answered in detail. Case closed.

Dirius said:
You are not really answering my points, you just deflect them by blabing a compassionate argument that has no substance, which is the reason why I need to ask if my interpretation of your words is correct. Truth is in your view, those children shouldn't be alive, and would have been better for everyone if they had been aborted. That what you've said.

But then you talk abou how it is cruel to eat animal meat ...

- So in your view it is ok to abort children, for the convenience of the mother

- But it is not ok to kill animals for consumption, for the convenience of people.

Seriously mate, what is wrong with you?

aquarius7000 · May 3, 2020

david starling said:
Industrialized Humans are no longer participants in the Balance of Nature. in fact, as a species using advanced technology, we're throwing it out of balance. Since we, ourselves, are creatures of Nature, it was bound to correct us sooner or later.

It seems at times we humans might use that knowingness as an excuse to continue as we are... do what we please fully cognizant of all the chaos and destruction we cause because we know that there is an auto correct mode, and it is too much of an effort to practise self-restraint...
Also, we seem to think that nothing will happen to us personally. It always happens to other countries and people, until a Covid explosion happens on us.

Ukpoohbear · May 3, 2020

Dirius said:
But your morals are very changable then. You don't mind and act of violence against an animal (removing reproductive organs) if you believe it is for the greater good.

But some farmer can't take a cow's milk to feed people.

Why is your objective good and justifiable, but his isn't?

I was trying to think of a solution to stopping the breeding of pets. It was just a possible solution. And you are tricking me by suggesting that means I would agree to it.

Instead of debating into twilight, why don’t you make changes that align more with your morals around the animal industry?

What are you learning from COVID?

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