When a Jet Liner crashes....

....do ALL of the passengers and crew have natal charts that show the sudden doom and loss?


My husband, who is about 90% a believer in Astrological veracity, asks me this quite often.

I don't really have an answer. I guess they must all have transits or progressions which show their sudden death.

Or perhaps it is shown by the mundane chart or an eclipse upon the chart of the airline company?

.....thoughts?

Do you think astrology only works part of the time?

What of thousands who died in a days battle in a war? Or multiple victims in a car accident, including perhaps members belonging to the same family? Works for some but not for others?

I believe if you had the data and the time and patience you would find astrology would work in all cases.

It is up to your husband to make a decision regarding what he is willing to accept as you probably have neither the data nor the time to conduct endless numbers of tests with which to prove or disprove the point. How many proofs would he require? 100? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? 1,000,000? Or would he accept a percentage even if you could not show success or failure in every case?

unique_astrology said:

Do you think astrology only works part of the time?

What of thousands who died in a days battle in a war? Or multiple victims in a car accident, including perhaps members belonging to the same family? Works for some but not for others?

I believe if you had the data and the time and patience you would find astrology would work in all cases.

It is up to your husband to make a decision regarding what he is willing to accept as you probably have neither the data nor the time to conduct endless numbers of tests with which to prove or disprove the point. How many proofs would he require? 100? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? 1,000,000? Or would he accept a percentage even if you could not show success or failure in every case?

Click to expand...

It is not a question, for me, whether Astrology works all of the time or not.

The question is 'in what way' does it show itself in the charts.

As for my husband, he is not an astrologer. And they day we met, he said the only thing he didn't like about me was that I believed in astrology.

He has come a long way after 35 years of marriage. He has spoken in depth to many of my clients and students over the years and learned a lot about what Astrology really is.

He has read a few of my books and appreciates the language of astrology and the symbolism.

But he is a science based type of person who has these kinds of questions that I find interesting.

I do have to wonder about mass casualty incidents and the natal charts of the victims. How could every single worker or visitor of the World Trade Center have transits expressing death and destruction on the morning of 9/11 ?

I do have a hard time processing that because it does not make rational sense to me.

It seems more logical that the chart of the Tower's inception, and the chart of the owner and his business chart, and the chart of NYC would have the doomsday transits. And many of the victims would as well.

But I just cannot work it out in my mind that every employee that worked in this upper levels would ALL have transits/progressions signifying sudden death that day.

Svencanz said:

There are several things to look at...
Malaysia Airlines had horrible progressions, the company, when they lost their two big planes. I actually thought they would lose a third.
These days, you can often find the first flight date for the actual plane that crashed. And this is the most important chart. I have looked at a lot of these crashes and will write about this when I launch my new website in April next year. The "type" first flight date can also have an importance.

The only "plane" I have looked at from the perspective your husband asks is the Columbia space shuttle, which in itself is a powerful example of crash astrology. All of the astronauts had multiple and severe Saturn transits at the time of the crash.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is exactly what I was wondering about. Things like Malaysian Airlines and their inception charts.


Yes, I totally believe the Columbia tragedy would show in the individual's charts. This was a mission they were all involved in together. So I fully expect it to be shown in their natal/progressed charts.

Which is why I wondered if maybe the pilots and crew are the ones most likely to have the death transits show up heavily in their charts.

You can have nearly 700 people go down in a 747. From all walks of life, from all over, and on the plane for very diverse reasons. Is every single passenger going to have distinct death transits/progressions for that day?

So if we say that for astrology 'to work' --then every single person has to have distinct death transits on their natal chart that day---are we saying that if someone gets on the plane last minute, with out those transits, then the plane won't go down?

I guess my heavily aspected Uranus in the 3rd wants to believe in flukes and whimsy and the occasional unexplained event that does not fit the pattern.

Svencanz said:

Yes, for a person to die in an accident, they will have to have bad transits and progressions. Otherwise astrology would not work. Similarly, their wedding chart and that of any spouse will also be challenged.
So if 700 people die in an accident on a particular day, they will all have the said transits and progs. The fact they are in the same plane "hardly matters".
There are also serious plane crashes where some of the passengers survive.

Click to expand...

But that is my sincere question. If every one of those 660 passengers went to an astrologer the day before they died, how many would have been warned not to fly the next day? How many of the charts would have foretold the imminent danger of flying?

I agree with you that they would all show 'some bad transits and progressions.' But that is not really what I am asking.

I am asking if every one of the passengers that dies would have explicit, specific transits indicating imminent sudden death.

Svencanz said:

I think you'll find the story is often the other way around...
The odd person out s someone who should have been on board but missed the plane for some reason....

Read under Flight 93

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patti_Austin

Click to expand...

Yes, it happens both ways.

I wish I could get the timed charts of all the passengers and all those who missed the flight or cancelled last minute.

Katy,

I didn't mean my post in an antagonistic way but tone can't be conveyed properly in a post.

There are many charts* that can be used to look at a person's upcoming possibilities but basically only having the Sun, Moon, and 8 planets to apply to an uncountable number of possibilities before resorting to asteroids, different house systems, a different zodiac, midpoints, and on and on, when looking back on an experience one may not find results they are satisfied with.

All astrological predictions are opinions or guesswork. Read the charts of sextuplets (easier to get birth data and event data) and consistently correctly predict what will happen for each of them. They are all going to have the same aspects when one of them dies but they most likely won't all die at the same time. Same goes for when they marry, divorce, have children, or anything else that will happen in their lives. Who can tell every time or even most of the time which one will have the actual experience?

I have found a system that has always produced results as to the psychological and possibly the physical (if there is one) nature that may be experienced on a particular day, in a particular location, within a window of several hours, that I am satisfied with when using verifiable data. I have been using it for more than 40 years.

*natal, progressed natal, solar return, progressed solar return, lunar return, progressed lunar return, and those of different systems.

Peace.

Bob

katydid said:

But that is my sincere question.
If every one of those 660 passengers went to an astrologer the day before they died,
how many would have been warned not to fly the next day?
How many of the charts would have foretold the imminent danger of flying?

I agree with you that they would all show
'some bad transits and progressions.'
But that is not really what I am asking.

I am asking
if every one of the passengers that dies
would have explicit, specific transits
indicating imminent sudden death.

Click to expand...

Ninety thousand people perished in Hiroshima
and
approximately seventy four thousand people died in Nagasaki
a combined total
of at least one hundred and sixty four thousand natal charts
to analyze
- including verification of time of birth.


BOTH CITIES WERE VAPORISED WITHIN NINE SECONDS
DESTROYING ALL RECORDS

and so
a belief or disbelief
that 'each of these victim's alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated'
OR
each victims chart showed transits
"indicating imminent sudden death"
is neither provable nor disprovable.
Clearly, all these people DID have one thing in common
i.e.
THEY WERE ALL LOCATED
IN A CITY ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.

A study of the relevant MUNDANE ASTROLOGY brings answers

by the way
some survived
astrologers studying charts of survivors of large scale disasters
such as plane crashes, explosions and so on
found chart patterns indicating they had 'above average good fortune'
- there were survivors of the bombings of Hiroshima
as well as of Nagasaki
and if anyone has any research material
regarding any studies of their natal charts that would be relevant

the important factor is however that

JUPITERASC said:

Clearly, all these people DID have one thing in common

i.e.

THEY WERE ALL LOCATED
IN A CITY ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.

Click to expand...

i.e.
MUNDANE ASTROLOGICAL analysis
supercedes any individual natal chart

Olivia said:

And that is the key right there,

not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard
otherwise known as ibn Ezra
one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.
He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy
of other considerations.

From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way
is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction
on each country.
Thus
if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

Click to expand...

Ibn Ezra highlights the priority of MUNDANE over NATAL
- i.e.

'......even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication
of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....'

I knew someone who died in a plane crash. We weren't friends, but rather just classmates that graduated high school together. She was on twa flight 800 that crashed in 96'. What is interesting is that most of the passengers on the flight had their original flight itinerary changed at the last minute, and were booked onto flight 800. Some were filtered out entirely and didn't get on the plane because it went from being a direct flight, to becoming one with a stop-over. Its fascinating, that all those that boarded the plane were picked out by the universe to share a tragic fate. When planes are involved uranus is involved, as would be the 9th linked to the end of life, IMO.

This topic; mass deaths, is one that is very interesting astrologically. I would love to see comprehensive astrological data on this topic - like a study with hundreds of nativities + event charts + synastry charts between the natives. That would be an undertaking!!

JA,

Hiroshima is a really pertinent example. I think that is a case where the mundane charts, and charts of the perpetrators will hold the clues.

But I am not sure that every single individual who lived in the bombed out areas, would have that showing in their natal charts.

I know that people think that means that I don't believe in Astrology, but that is not the case at all. I am just trying to understand the differences between mass casualties and individual natal charts.

ashriia said:

I knew someone who died in a plane crash. We weren't friends, but rather just classmates that graduated high school together. She was on twa flight 800 that crashed in 96'. What is interesting is that most of the passengers on the flight had their original flight itinerary changed at the last minute, and were booked onto flight 800. Some were filtered out entirely and didn't get on the plane because it went from being a direct flight, to becoming one with a stop-over. Its fascinating, that all those that boarded the plane were picked out by the universe to share a tragic fate. When planes are involved uranus is involved, as would be the 9th linked to the end of life, IMO.

This topic; mass deaths, is one that is very interesting astrologically. I would love to see comprehensive astrological data on this topic - like a study with hundreds of nativities + event charts + synastry charts between the natives. That would be an undertaking!!

Click to expand...

Yes, those twists of fate really interest me. My daughter had a classmate in 3rd grade, whose father was supposed to be on the Boston flight. But he missed the flight because his cab driver got in a fender bender. And he was still in the Boston airport, waiting for another flight, when he heard about the Trade Center.

I actually did try to get his birth info, but they had no idea what I was trying to do with it, lol.

katydid said:

JA,

Hiroshima is a really pertinent example.
I think that is a case where the mundane charts,
and charts of the perpetrators will hold the clues.

But I am not sure
that every single individual who lived in the bombed out areas,
would have that showing in their natal charts.

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I highlighted katydid
i.e.
there is an Hierarchy of charts in astrology
natal charts are superceded by Mundane charts
Ibn Ezra highlights the priority of MUNDANE over NATAL
- i.e.

'......even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication
of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....'

katydid said:

I know that people think that means that I don't believe in Astrology
but that is not the case at all.
I am just trying to understand
the differences
between mass casualties
and individual natal charts.

Click to expand...

As well as studying the Chart of the City an atomic bomb is dropped onto
or
the Chart of the City where a Jet liner crashes
and so on
alternatively find the Chart of the Jet Liner itself
i.e.
the Jet Liner itself has a "natal chart"

Olivia said:

And that is the key right there,

not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard
otherwise known as ibn Ezra

one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.

He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy
of other considerations.

From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way
is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction
on each country.
Thus
if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

Click to expand...

JUPITERASC said:

That's exactly what I highlighted katydid
i.e.
there is an Hierarchy of charts in astrology
natal charts are superceded by Mundane charts
Ibn Ezra highlights the priority of MUNDANE over NATAL
- i.e.

'......even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication
of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....'


As well as studying the Chart of the City an atomic bomb is dropped onto
or
the Chart of the City where a Jet liner crashes
and so on
alternatively find the Chart of the Jet Liner itself
i.e.
the Jet Liner itself has a "natal chart"

Click to expand...

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

That is EXACTLY what I was asking. That is what I was trying to explain. The hierarchy.

A tsunami takes precedence.

katydid said:

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

That is EXACTLY what I was asking.
That is what I was trying to explain.
The hierarchy.

A tsunami takes precedence.

Click to expand...

Well said
mass disasters are shown by the Mundane chart
including for example Ingress chart
for the locality of the disaster
many discussions at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=5

katydid said:

....do ALL of the passengers and crew have natal charts that show the sudden doom and loss? ...
Or perhaps it is shown by the mundane chart or an eclipse upon the chart of the airline company?

.....thoughts?

Click to expand...

Firstly, greetings to Mr Katydid.
My thoughts are that yes, just like all those getting married on the same day, at 2 pm GMT, around the world, will have aspects in their own natal chart showing wedlock on that day, similarly, all those to face a fatal event on a particular day, say an air crash, will also have aspects showing the same. Either we believe in astrology, or we don't.

And, yes, the chart of the airline company should also be reflective of the crash.

In fact, the easiest way to do so would be to do an event chart using the time, date and place of take-off of the fateful flight. That should do the trick.

katydid said:

But that is my sincere question. If every one of those 660 passengers went to an astrologer the day before they died, how many would have been warned not to fly the next day? How many of the charts would have foretold the imminent danger of flying?

Click to expand...

All charts would have "foretold the imminent danger", but perhaps not all passengers "would have foretold the imminent danger of flying". The difference is that the charts (if the TOB is correct) will have the right information (in this case of a big accident) in them, but are the astrologers third graders or PHD's as far as their knowledge of astrology goes is a different question altogether.

Now my hypothesis (since I haven't done it yet), if the 100 people that faced an air crash went to the same PHD and experienced astrologer a day before boarding that aircraft, that astrologer should be able to see it in all the 100 charts.

aquarius7000 said:

Firstly, greetings to Mr Katydid.
My thoughts are that yes, just like all those getting married on the same day, at 2 pm GMT, around the world, will have aspects in their own natal chart showing wedlock on that day, similarly, all those to face a fatal event on a particular day, say an air crash, will also have aspects showing the same. Either we believe in astrology, or we don't.

And, yes, the chart of the airline company should also be reflective of the crash.

In fact, the easiest way to do so would be to do an event chart using the time, date and place of take-off of the fateful flight. That should do the trick.

All charts would have "foretold the imminent danger", but perhaps not all passengers "would have foretold the imminent danger of flying". The difference is that the charts (if the TOB is correct) will have the right information (in this case of a big accident) in them, but are the astrologers third graders or PHD's as far as their knowledge of astrology goes is a different question altogether.

Now my hypothesis (since I haven't done it yet), if the 100 people that faced an air crash went to the same PHD and experienced astrologer a day before boarding that aircraft, that astrologer should be able to see it in all the 100 charts.

Click to expand...

OKay, does that hypothesis extrapolate to Hiroshima as well? Do all 70, 000 victims have transits showing imminent death the next day?

I don't think so.

I think there are certain massive events which are too big to see in an individuals natal chart.

katydid said:

OKay, does that hypothesis extrapolate to Hiroshima as well? Do all 70, 000 victims have transits showing imminent death the next day?

I don't think so.

I think there are certain massive events which are too big to see in an individuals natal chart.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you are really asking me a question there or stating what you already seem so convinced of.

My opinion is what I said earlier. A good astrologer will be able to see the danger in not just 100 charts, but also 100,000 charts.

Again, either astrology is true for you, or not. It cannot be true based on a smaller no. and untrue if the number runs in thousands. The is a bit, well, absurd.

aquarius7000 said:

Not sure if you are really asking me a question there or stating what you already seem so convinced of.

My opinion is what I said earlier. A good astrologer will be able to see the danger in not just 100 charts, but also 100,000 charts.

Again, either astrology is true for you, or not. It cannot be true based on a smaller no. and untrue if the number runs in thousands. The is a bit, well, absurd.

Click to expand...

Of course I 'believe' in astrology. I have been an astrologer for 40 years.

This is the best explanation I have for my beliefs about mass tragedies:

Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
And that is the key right there,

not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard
otherwise known as ibn Ezra
one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.
He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy
of other considerations.

From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way
is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction
on each country.
Thus
if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

Thinking it is about elevated awareness..being consciously aware we are all interconnected is the only valid evidence that most often shows the crisis energy in the map. All the passengers are all not alike thinker's nor do they have to have the same chart reflection..The thread of revelation energy (planet/sign/house/aspects etc.) is the awareness on a very deep inner subconscious level of our belief system, our minds. Not all charts will show an element of energy for evidence to the plane crash. Astrology is an art of the spirit, a precognitive super imposing stencil laid one upon each other for reflection. (karma is 'personal unction' centered) Those that are 'aware' demonstrate or show the string of time & space revelation process by Astrological symbolism because they have studied it prior-have had some familiarity with the art long ago in some far off distant universe. The common thread will be duplicated by the person to person synergy chart in that fashion. (hence the ponderous one's.)


Don't know if I can explain it quite adequately but took a class in Los Angeles when I was young & many of us argued that same point. Jacobson - Marc Edmund Jones explains the theory behind Astrology as a pseudo science (mind) platform= an inner understanding that drives us to potential we only individually can put into motion.

The air plane crash will only show itself as valid within the chart or the individual that has arrived of that understanding to perceive the energy, those on board are linked to the individual in some way..not the incident, bc the incident is not a spirit. The human element will show the connection to the one whom is able to perceive the 'one connected to the all' almost like a chosen caretaker (for want of a better analogy) It is all about 'being in tune to the higher power' (humanity) how then do we care about one another? If we open ourselves to each other (as a child does) there is the prophecy=trust, faith, prophetic sight, we do not walk as one..we walk as the many..but unfortunately not all of us are able to 'know' that truth.

The chart is a reflection of our 'ability' for belief systems & the will that joins us in linking to other's=we become a conduit for joined expression simpatico. Astrology tells us we are 'impelled by energy not compelled' which shows in the chart of novice layman as trait, tendencies only, character=choice.. We have free will and that free will demonstrates itself as the passenger whom for some unknown inkling removes them selves from the flight; it is perception as a collective energy first. (The link is an expanse energy from person to person)

How are we connected to the individual whom makes the chart, first look to your 'As above so below' reflection. It is not the incident it is the person conscious centered connection.

Wish I could explain it more intelligently

All the best
Vyri

Did not read the above contributions..but have been in a place that supersedes the self to engulf the many for some uncanny reflection of past as prologue..or?

Not sure what message you are trying to convey through all those lovely quotes. If a person's chart, or a 100 people's charts does not/do not show that they are in some kind of danger by boarding that fateful plane, then their individual charts are invalid in my opinion. Just the way if they were all to get married on the same day, each of their chart would show that big event, too. I guess there's a reason why the word astrological has logical included in it.

If there are five survivors in the planet crash, then the charts of those five survivors would show the crash/accident, and also an aspect whereby they will live to see the next sunrise. That distinguishes them then from the 95 others, whose sun set with the crash, unfortunately. The jetliner's/airline's chart will also show the event. Even the mundane chart of the place will show reflect the event. There will be a common thread in each and every chart, but through different houses and aspect. A common (or more) aspect(s) will be, for instance, aspects between the outer planets, which will be there in all charts, however, influencing those 100 differently in conjunction with the mundane chart of the place and the liner. Since you and I didn't board that plane, the mundane charts did not aspect us.

katydid said:

Of course I 'believe' in astrology. I have been an astrologer for 40 years.

This is the best explanation I have for my beliefs about mass tragedies:

Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
And that is the key right there,

not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions
that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard
otherwise known as ibn Ezra
one of the first things he tells astrologers is
that astrology does not contravene natural law.
He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy
of other considerations.

From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way
is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction
on each country.
Thus
if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations
war is supposed to befall a certain nation
even if many of those born in it
do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities
when the time for war for that country comes
they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

Click to expand...