The particulars of Retrograde Motion

Hello! This is not really a Chart Reading request, but I don't know if it fits anywhere else, either.

I have a technical question. I can't really seem to find a definitive answer on this one (maybe it's implied and I just missed it) and it made me curious: My natal Saturn is actually "Stationary Retrograde", and I wondered (just for accuracy's sake) if it still counts as being in direct motion? If my Saturn is slowing down to go retrograde (with the necessary quote bunnies hopping everywhere), doesn't he still appear to move in a forward motion until that point in time when the apparent motion is definitely backward? I didn't really think about it before (what with Astrodienst not making the distinction except in the additional tables page), but now I wonder if I ought to read about my Saturn as if he is Retrograde in my chart. Either way, I learned that by being slowed down and concentrating his energy, Saturn has definitely raised a pay grade amongst my planets.

Also: please PM me if you need my birth data for specifics. Thanks!

The historical concept is that when "stationary" the planet has (apparently) "stopped" moving, is "standing still", and about to turn (either retrograde or back to direct) Most have considered "stationary/retrograde" to be = to retrograde, but technically it is not retrograde (yet, while stationary)-many have considered a stationary planet to = a very potent influence (whether stationary rx or stationary direct)

Thank you, Dr. Farr! I wondered about how to interpret my Saturn's position; it looks like I'll be looking at descriptions of n.Saturn in retrograde to make the call of what fits me better. I'm glad that, technically speaking, I was right to read it as still direct, though.

Thanks again!

Well let's be honest, retrograde does not actually mean going backward nor does a planet stop in its orbit. Though retrograde does mean a slower and closer orbit. So this is how I personally interpret retrograde, more pronounced effect of the planet's energy occurring in the person's life though perhaps delayed (perhaps a person has learned to not have it totally present in their life...and then WHAM).

Timely thread! Thanks!

In my Progressed chart, my Rx Mars is finally stationary! I think this is huge for me. In a years time it finally goes direct by progression. Interesting times ahead!

Hello Retinoid. I do know that the planets aren't actually going backward or slowing down, but I figured that if there was an astrological significance to the apparent backwards motion, might there be significance to the apparent slowing motion as well? That's really what I wanted to know- "does the perception that my Saturn was slowing down on my birthday have the similar or the same significance as the perception that Saturn is moving backward?"

And thanks for replying on the effects of retrograde motion.




It's pretty cool when timing works out that way, StillOne!

Silversong said:

Hello! This is not really a Chart Reading request, but I don't know if it fits anywhere else, either.

I have a technical question. I can't really seem to find a definitive answer on this one (maybe it's implied and I just missed it) and it made me curious: My natal Saturn is actually "Stationary Retrograde", and I wondered (just for accuracy's sake) if it still counts as being in direct motion? If my Saturn is slowing down to go retrograde (with the necessary quote bunnies hopping everywhere), doesn't he still appear to move in a forward motion until that point in time when the apparent motion is definitely backward? I didn't really think about it before (what with Astrodienst not making the distinction except in the additional tables page), but now I wonder if I ought to read about my Saturn as if he is Retrograde in my chart. Either way, I learned that by being slowed down and concentrating his energy, Saturn has definitely raised a pay grade amongst my planets.

Also: please PM me if you need my birth data for specifics. Thanks!

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In ancient times a retrograde planet was considered 'unfit to do business' because it is metaphorically of course 'walking backwards'

JUPITERASC said:

....these ideas mostly from Robert Schmidt's translations of Vettius Valens http://www.projecthindsight.com/

Conditions relative to Sun then:

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station or from second station up to the heliacal setting, the planet is capable of appearing and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified

[Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight says that Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”].

Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth. Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions.[/FONT]

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”.

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I personally work with the concept that planets retrograde suggest going over past ground, or rethinking the past; a time for retrospective analysis of what is, or is not working in the life; with the outer planets especially, it can mean things of the subconscious finally coming to the surface of consciousness which can open the door to new perspectives and higher awareness. The energy of the planet is not working in it's normal manner...and thus we can sometimes get caught off guard. As it is stationing, it is getting ready to change it's manner of influence, and this is the time of transitioning, where things become rather confusing and possibly disorienting. Think of the analogy of the train coming into the station; it is about the transition of people going in new directions. For some this represents the destination, while for others it is merely a stopping point.

Thank you for commenting, Kimbermoon!

I think that it makes sense to see it that way- if my natal Saturn was getting ready to see things differently, then maybe, as it Progressed, I was already slated to see the principle of Saturn in a different way, and because I was little (and therefore wasn't even really aware of the principles of Saturn to begin with), I just went along with it.

It's that sentence in that specifically talks about stationing that I don't really get yet, though: if the whole time of transitioning is confusing and possibly disorienting, does that imply that my natal orientation with regards to Saturn is confused and off-kilter? Or is it like I am always in anticipation of moving in different direction? I feel ignorant for asking this question, but I am curious about how far I can take this metaphor in interpreting my Saturn's role in my chart.

If you really need to get down to the details of how long the planet is actually stationing, or in retrograde motion, you would of course have have to consult an ephemeris for the actual dates. Personally I tend to see the state of stationing as the preparation stage; you begin to realize that there is a change happening but are not yet ready to get totally involved in the retrograde period. This is why there can be a period of confusion and instability. With the outer planets of long term cycles, the same can be said about transitioning back into direct motion; we begin to realize that something in our consciousness has changed or been modified, but it can still take time to integrate [absorb] what such changes mean to us [this stage is about taking stock or inventory]; it can represent a time of making the decision of whether to totally absorb the essence of what has been revealed to us [if it has pertinence or significance] or whether it needs to be discarded, and then return to the same path we were previously on, yet still perhaps with a few new perspectives. I tend to lean towards this concept whereby the transitioning period, either forward or reverse is primarily about consciousness and perspectives. Perhaps during the actual retro period we get to experience the 'what if things were different' before determining whether to take action on it or not. It is about re-orientation and analysis.
In truth, it only matters most when one natal planet is being targeted by this back and forth state of expression more than once; the first contact is about a period of the approach as the train comes into the station; there can be time delays, uncertainty and apprehension. The second contact [retro] is about being in the station: 'wait a minute, lets take a second look' or perhaps 'hang on, the train is not leaving the station for a time yet', during which time we have to figure out how to spend the waiting time before getting on the next train. As the next train prepares to leave the station, we must get ready as well, so as not to miss the train. The final contact represents having gotten back onto the train, as we begin to integrate and absorb what has been revealed during the retro period, before jumping right back into the saddle of daily living again. Think of the same concept in terms of an airplane trip as well; checking in the baggage and the actual take-off; next the actual travel and the trip itself; finally the arrival and the landing. If I might add, there does come a come when astrologers need to learn to rely on their own intuition as well, in making their assessments.

Thank you very much for explaining further, Kimbermoon. Your last point is very important for me too, because I'm generally not that comfortable in making the final intuitive leap and trusting my interpretation of something I'm learning about. Your post, as well as another I've received recently, has made me realize one of the bigger difficulties I am going to have in continuing my studies and moving over to intermediate-level astrology: It's my first instinct is to get really technical and try to find the "right answer" and gather up as much information as I can to sift through and synthesize the final correct answer. I am learning that that is not really how Astrology works, and that everyone has their own style and method of interpretation, and if I am going grow into and really synthesize the ideas and principles within Astrology for myself, I am going to have to step way out of my comfort zone and attempt to create my own understanding of Astrology, intuition and sense of artistry included.