Are we over for good?

FireNwater

Well-known member
Dear FireWater,





Your point is well-taken regarding Moon not being VOC. Thank you.

I would mention that you misread my post: I did not describe him as a cad. I said that his behaviour points more toward his not wanting to be a cad. Rather than blowing her off after telling her "to move on, " he chose to say "but let's be amicable." That doesn't suggest that he continues to have romantic feelings for her. And quite honestly, it's a lot to ask and usually can't be achieved by most broken-up couples because one or both are too angry or hurt. All of this freely reported, subjective information from client has to be processed and built into the delineation of the chart.

How do I sense that he is finished with her? The reception from him as Moon to her as Saturn, donned in the sign of Capricorn, the sign of his/Moon's detriment. This is an unfavorable response to her, however you choose to describe it. And not only do their primary significators not aspect, they are disjunct. They do not see eye-to-eye. There is a significant breach between them.
I've referred to the client's subjective reporting and would conclude by suggesting that the very act of delineation is a subjective impression. The chart and the astrologer's impression of it cannot be separated and the astrologer's impression can only be subjective.

You wrote:

In reality, we can make up whatever we want if we want to go on our subjective impressions, but the chart is what tells the real story. The chart doesn't say anything like that.

I think I have explained in simple and clear astrological methodology how I subjectively analyse a chart based on the "objective" rules of astrology. I use the symbolism that I have learned over 25 years of experience with astrology and then do a gestalt-like take on the chart. It is clearly subjective combined with some somewhat objective "facts" of astrological symbolism. I can't see how it could be any other way: I am guilty as charged about being subjective.

If you look carefully at how you delineate, if you are not creatively making up a story about the chart, then I have to wonder what you actually doing?

Thank you for patiently reading this.


Well, lets look at the context. You are right that the main significators are not aspecting and that means they are not seeing each other, or not seeing eye to eye as you put it. Of course they aren't! They aren't together right now.

Her regard toward him is mixed and his regard toward her is favorable enough, especially considering he didn't get what he wanted from her which was a more amicable split.

Yes, I did misread your post about calling him a cad, sorry. I did read your post saying he did a twisted thing and she should forget him. I thought you were still going off of that point.

When you look at the chart, you can clearly see his moving toward Venus, which in my opinion, is her. If Venus were recieving the Moon, we would see a stronger incination to act, but the fact that he is moving toward her,shows that he is coming for her. Moon antiscia the Sun shows his motivation... sex. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing. She said she has been thinking about it.

This chart is showing is that right now they aren't together-- makes sense-- they are in inconjunct signs-- they are not. But look at the actual question.
The question was "is it really over?" Not "will we live happily ever after?" Or "does he love me?"

The important thing is it shows it's not really over and it shows when they will meet.

You can think Venus is someone else, but I strongly strongly doubt it. We will see how it plays out. Hopefully the querent updates.


About subjectivity, I don't really follow your logic, I'm sorry. I don't make up stories about what a chart says based on *how what he did to her, or she said she did, or what he didn't do subjectively made me feel* or based on my own values or biases. I don't say that what someone did is "twisted", especially if the chart doesn't show that. I look at what is *specifically* asked and answer a question based on a set of very straightforward rules.
 
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IleneK

Premium Member
Well, lets look at the context. You are right that the main significators are not aspecting and that means they are not seeing each other, or not seeing eye to eye as you put it. Of course they aren't! They aren't together right now.

Her regard toward him is mixed and his regard toward her is favorable enough, especially considering he didn't get what he wanted from her which was a more amiable split.

Yes, I did misread your post about calling him a cad, sorry. I did read your post saying he did a twisted thing and she should forget him. I thought you were still going off of that point.

I get your point that the querent said he just wanted to remain amicable, but again, when you looking at the chart, you can clearly see his moving toward Venus, which in my opinion is her. If Venus were recieving the Moon, we would see a stronger incination to act, but the fact that it is him moving toward her,shows that he is coming for her. Moon antiscia the Sun shows his motivation... sex. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing. She said she has been thinking about it.

Maybe all this chart is showing is that right now they aren't together-- makes sense-- they are in inconjunct signs-- they are not. But look at the actual question.
The question "is it really over?" Not "will we live happily ever after?" Or "does he love me?"

The important thing is it shows it's not really over and it shows when they will meet.

You can think Venus is someone else, but I strongly strongly doubt it. We will see how it plays out. Hopefully the querent updates.


About subjectivity, I don't really follow your logic, I'm sorry. I don't make up stories about what a chart says based on *how what he did to her or she said she did or he did or didn't do or whatever subjectively made me feel.* or based on my own values or biases. i don't say that what someone did is "twisted" especially if the chart doesn't show that. I look at what is *specifically* asked and answer a question based on a set of very straightforward rules.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
 

ellie04

Well-known member
Like, dislike, love and hate, etc, does not make sense at all when traditionalists try to apply it, because a planet recieving is not the same thing as like or love in the way we see it today. Traditional teachings do not explain this very well. You also have to think about how love was viewed in the 1600's...times have actually changed. In the 1600's, I wonder if generally people regarded love in the same way they do now. If reception equalled love in the 1600's, what does that say about the values of that time period? Just something to ponder... reception only shows passivity...you're getting something, recieving something. But it doesnt really show desire. What we love, we desire.

Even in modern times, people's perception of love varies. One person's idea of love may not be another's. And some people's expressions of love can be very... complex.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll go look it up. :)
 

ellie04

Well-known member
Just wanna update that we met a few days ago and reconciled, so FireNwater/Chrysalis, you're right that we're not over yet. I'm tripped by the timing though as if I count from the day we split, it took 5 weeks, but from the date I cast the Horary, it was about 2 weeks.

The meeting wasn't planned but maybe he secretly planned it as he simply showed up at the place I frequented. Anyway, it was clear we're still attracted... we spent the whole evening side-by-side and we had sexual contact thereafter.

As for the reception part, he said he missed me but at the same time was upset with me over a misunderstanding caused by his friend which we managed to clear up that evening. Not sure if this trouble-making friend is shown by Mars conj Mercury in his 1st house?

I'm not sure if this will lead to a full patch-back but he did say he would see me again soon.
 
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Chrysalis

Well-known member
The timing was exact from the moon applying to conjunct L5/venus (reconciliation). Moons at nearly 22 degrees and venus at 27 degrees, moon has to travel 5 degrees to conjoin with venus at 27 degrees, which is the 5 degrees/weeks till the reconciliation.
 

ellie04

Well-known member
I casted another chart asking if he loves me or only wants sex.

I'm Saturn & Venus and he's Moon and Sun. Moon just changed sign to Capricorn (in my sign) so it seems he does love me. Venus also in its triplicity. But he's in 12H means he hides his feelings? However, Venus in Sun's Term with Saturn in its detriment. He both loves and hates me?
 

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FireNwater

Well-known member
Yeah, that's interesting about the timing. Makes me wonder if he saw you a week before (6 days after the chart was cast) when you were unaware. Were you at the place a week before you met up with him?
 

FireNwater

Well-known member
So in the second chart, you are right that the Moon in your significator, Saturn's, domicile means he loves you. It is in your 12th which means he is hiding it from you, yes.

But while he loves you, he does have some ambivalent feelings. The Sun, symbolizing him as "animal man"- basically his impetus to find a mate- is in Cancer, which is the detriment of Saturn.

That doesn't mean he doesn't love you. He does-- his main significator, the Moon, symbolizing him as thinking and feeling person, is in your significator's domicile- reception by domicile is the strongest indicator there can be for love.

If you look at where the Sun is- in his own house- it might give a clue as to why he is feeling turned off or whatever the case may be. He is definitely self-focused being in his own house. Is he the type to not settle or play the field, do you know? Or is he really into himself?
 
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FireNwater

Well-known member
Btw, Venus, symbolizing you as woman, is right on the 7th cusp. You are extremely into him sexually, to your own detriment. Venus is in Saturn's detriment. You are conflicted- you want to be strong (Saturn in own domicile) but you are conflicted due to your passion for him.
 
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FireNwater

Well-known member
Looking at this chart again, I think you guys are definitely not over. The Moon makes a translation of light. Moon recieves Venus in domicile and translates its light to saturn who recieves moon by triplicity. I think the Sun being in the detriment of Saturn means he is upset that you think (Saturn- you as thinking person) he only wants sex. Saturn is hard, it's almost like youre being cold toward him. (Saturn rejects the Moon in its detriment) does that make sense? It's all about context.

This chart shows the context and overall, it is not a negative chart. Most importantly,it says he does love you and he is going to come after you.

Also, Venus is conjunct the NN and applying, a very good sign.
 
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Arena

Well-known member
Firstly there is nothing twisted about leaving a relationship and asking the loved one to remember him/her fondly. It is to me an expression of the heart, of still caring. It does not make him a twisted or bad person.

The question has been answered. No it is not over for good.
He's approaching you as Venus and you are meeting up in about 6 weeks.
 

ellie04

Well-known member
@FireNwater,
Yes, I was there the week before. If he was there it means he hid himself very well (haha). :pouty:

You're right about Venus opp Saturn. I feel conflicted as I hate that I'm so sexually attracted to him. He's very sexual with me too so all these made me wonder if he's with me for sex or love. I've told him before... that I think he's with me only for sex. He kept quiet but perhaps he was annoyed at what I said.

Friends have assured me that he's not a player but he gets flirty when he drinks and this has caused strife in our r/s. I think the attention strokes his male ego (Sun exalted in his own house). The irony is he gets jealous of the guys around me too.

His silence and his flirty ways are what made me think he doesn't love me, so I got very cold & critical of him.

Is Saturn receiving Moon by triplicity? Because this is a day chart.

Also, when Moon conjunct Saturn it will enter my first house and conjunct Asc as well, does it mean that he will come clean with his feelings for me?


Note: I've been reading John Frawley's Horary Textbook. He makes it really easy to understand. :)
 
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ellie04

Well-known member
Firstly there is nothing twisted about leaving a relationship and asking the loved one to remember him/her fondly. It is to me an expression of the heart, of still caring. It does not make him a twisted or bad person.

The question has been answered. No it is not over for good.
He's approaching you as Venus and you are meeting up in about 6 weeks.

Yes, we have met and reconciled. I've posted a 2nd chart above asking about his real feelings.
 

Arena

Well-known member
I casted another chart asking if he loves me or only wants sex.

I'm Saturn & Venus and he's Moon and Sun. Moon just changed sign to Capricorn (in my sign) so it seems he does love me. Venus also in its triplicity. But he's in 12H means he hides his feelings? However, Venus in Sun's Term with Saturn in its detriment. He both loves and hates me?

He is the Moon and Moon is also "the matter" or love.
Moon is in your sign, telling us that yes he does love you - but he is in his detriment - you are not receiving him properly.

His love is also shown in another way in this chart. Your 5th house of romance is conjunct the DSC, it is in his court. He receives you as Venus, as loving and romantic.
 

FireNwater

Well-known member
@FireNwater,
Yes, I was there the week before. If he was there it means he hid himself very well (haha). :pouty:

You're right about Venus opp Saturn. I feel conflicted as I hate that I'm so sexually attracted to him. He's very sexual with me too so all these made me wonder if he's with me for sex or love. I've told him before... that I think he's with me only for sex. He kept quiet but perhaps he was annoyed at what I said.

Friends have assured me that he's not a player but he gets flirty when he drinks and this has caused strife in our r/s. I think the attention strokes his male ego (Sun exalted in his own house). The irony is he gets jealous of the guys around me too.

His silence and his flirty ways are what made me think he doesn't love me, so I got very cold & critical of him.

Is Saturn receiving Moon by triplicity? Because this is a day chart.

Also, when Moon conjunct Saturn it will enter my first house and conjunct Asc as well, does it mean that he will come clean with his feelings for me?


Note: I've been reading John Frawley's Horary Textbook. He makes it really easy to understand. :)

No, rest assured he does not like you only for sex- he loves you for who you are.

Saturn is recieving the Moon by triplicity in a night chart, but I personally think (90 percent sure) both the triplicities work no matter the time of day. That is just my opinion, from what I have observed. Either way, it's still a good translation-- the the Moon recieves Venus in domicile and then moves to conjunct Saturn, and Saturn recieves the Moon in domicile. This puts the ball in your court because you are the last one to recieve. Your attitude toward him may have to change.

When the Moon conjuncts Saturn, I think he may come out with his feelings for you.

Btw, that's great that you have been reading the Horary Textbook. It's awesome isn't it?
 
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ellie04

Well-known member
No, rest assured he does not like you only for sex- he loves you for who you are.

Saturn is recieving the Moon by triplicity in a night chart, but I personally think (90 percent sure) both the triplicities work no matter the time of day. That is just my opinion, from what I have observed. Either way, it's still a good translation-- the the Moon recieves Venus in domicile and then moves to conjunct Saturn, and Saturn recieves the Moon in domicile. This puts the ball in your court because you are the last one to recieve. Your attitude toward him may have to change.

When the Moon conjuncts Saturn, I think he may come out with his feelings for you.

Btw, that's great that you have been reading the Horary Textbook. It's awesome isn't it?

Yes, it's a very useful read. I finally figured out receptions, lol.

At one point he really made me feel unimportant but since the reconciliation, I've been trying to put behind all our past arguments. If he really comes out and be honest with his feelings (and stop flirting!), my attitude for him will definitely change.
 
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ellie04

Well-known member
When the Moon conjuncts Saturn, I think he may come out with his feelings for you.

Update: He finally confessed his feelings for me and the trigger was he found out about another guy. This makes him upset & jealous (Sun in detriment of Saturn).

So the 2nd Horary was accurate in describing his feelings... but now he cannot be consoled. :crying:
 

FireNwater

Well-known member
Update: He finally confessed his feelings for me and the trigger was he found out about another guy. This makes him upset & jealous (Sun in detriment of Saturn).

So the 2nd Horary was accurate in describing his feelings... but now he cannot be consoled. :crying:

Yes, that would explain the Sun in the detriment of Saturn.
 
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