Does Sun represent the man and Venus the woman in relationship Horary charts?

[ChildOfVenus]

I've read that for Horary questions about relationships the Sun represents the man and Venus the woman. Is this the case?

[ElenaJ]

It can be. They are secondary significators, in general terms, of the male and the female in the chart.

[PurpleReign]

Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus

I've read that for Horary questions about relationships the Sun represents the man and Venus the woman. Is this the case?

I agree with what Elena said, but want to add that typically when you read a horary chart, the person asking the question is represented by the ruler of the ascendent and the other person is represented by the ruler of the 7th. For instance, if I am asking about a potential love interest and the sign on the ascendent is Scorpio, then I am represented by Mars (Moon would always be your co-ruler in horary). If the sign ruling the 7th house is Taurus, then my love interest is represented by Venus (even if he is a man). I would then look for any aspects between Mars and Venus and what houses and signs they are in.

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by PurpleReign

I agree with what Elena said, but want to add that typically when you read a horary chart, the person asking the question is represented by the ruler of the ascendent and the other person is represented by the ruler of the 7th. For instance, if I am asking about a potential love interest and the sign on the ascendent is Scorpio, then I am represented by Mars (Moon would always be your co-ruler in horary). If the sign ruling the 7th house is Taurus, then my love interest is represented by Venus (even if he is a man). I would then look for any aspects between Mars and Venus and what houses and signs they are in.

Yeah, I know that but I was referring to what someone else stated about Sun and Venus in a horary chart. Thanks.

[greybeard]

Secondary rulers, not primary. Horary astrology is the astrology of the houses.

There is the Querent, who asks the question [First House], and the Quesited, whatever is asked after [House depends on the person or matter asked after].

In the simple Yes/No question (the best form of question...keeps it simple) if the two rulers (querent and quesited) are in good aspect the answer is Yes, if in bad aspect No, if not in aspect, indeterminate; look for supplemental information elsewhere in the chart...as in Sun and Venus. But the lords of the involved houses tend to give final judgment.

[ChildOfVenus]

I’ll use this chart as an example I asked if my friend hated me. And if we would see each other again. On another site I was told that we would see each other again. Because Sun is conjunct Venus in the chart. And that the Sun represents the man and Venus the woman in a question that’s in regards to a relationship.

[ElenaJ]

In this chart you have to look at mercury and Jupiter, plus moon.

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by ElenaJ

In this chart you have to look at mercury and Jupiter, plus moon.

Well, it's just what I read in Frawley's book about the Sun and Venus in a Horary chart.

[ChildOfVenus]

Jupiter in the chart is retrograde and it'll hit the Moon, Mars and then Mercury.

[greybeard]

Houses, houses, houses.

You need to find a reliable teacher. Try Simmonite, or Jacobsen, Appleby, Jones... The list goes on. Go back to Bonatti, Lilly....

Fire your current teacher for incompetence.

ElenaJ is a competent astrologer. Try her suggestions.

She said you need to look at Moon, Jupiter and Mercury. Why?

You didn't ask. How are you going to learn anything if, instead of asking questions, you cling doggedly to incorrect or misunderstood information and close your mind?

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Houses, houses, houses.

You need to find a reliable teacher. Try Simmonite, or Jacobsen, Appleby, Jones... The list goes on. Go back to Bonatti, Lilly....

Fire your current teacher for incompetence.

I know it's the ruler of the 1 and 7th house.

[ChildOfVenus]

I know what she suggested I never said she was wrong. She's always informative I don't know what you are getting at. You say the information is wrong yet I already stated where I got the information from it's not something that I made up on my own. Also, I've seen where several people have said that the Sun and Venus are used to represent the man and the woman in a Horary Chart. Perhaps you just don't agree with other's which is fine.

[ChildOfVenus]

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/relationships.html

[greybeard]

Good!

They are primary indicators. They control the affair asked after. They rule the two houses appropriate to the question...rule is the key.

Sun and Venus do not rule the houses of the question. Any information they might give with regard to the question is secondary, supplemental, on a level once-removed from the original question.

House lords are specific to the question. Natural rulers are not.

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Good!

They are primary indicators. They control the affair asked after. They rule the two houses appropriate to the question...rule is the key.

Sun and Venus do not rule the houses of the question. Any information they might give with regard to the question is secondary, supplemental, on a level once-removed from the original question.

House lords are specific to the question. Natural rulers are not.

Ok, so I asked if we would be sexually involved. Hence the reason why Sun and Venus were used. ElenaJ has helped me a lot I appreciate the information she gives me. I wasn't insinuating that she didn't know what she was talking about I think there was a miscommunication.

[greybeard]

Well, sex isn't 7th house. You must assign the question to a house.

Horary astrology is the astrology of the Houses. It has a lot of rules. It's good to know the rules. Whether they are applied or not is a matter of judgment left to the individual astrologer.

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Well, sex isn't 7th house. You must assign the question to a house.

Horary astrology is the astrology of the Houses. It has a lot of rules. It's good to know the rules. Whether they are applied or not is a matter of judgment left to the individual astrologer.

Ok, that's what I'm confused about. If you are asking a question about having sex with someone are they represented by the 5th or the 7th house for the person you are asking about?

[ElenaJ]

Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus

Ok, so I asked if we would be sexually involved. Hence the reason why Sun and Venus were used. ElenaJ has helped me a lot I appreciate the information she gives me. I wasn't insinuating that she didn't know what she was talking about I think there was a miscommunication.

No offence was taken by me, ChildofVenus, I think I understand what you are referring to.
You give a link where in fact it says, "Besides the main significators, Lilly tells us to consider the Sun as a general significator for the man and Venus as a general significator for the woman.".
That first word "Besides" is very important.
If the main significators are not coming together or have no relationship to each other, then the sun or Venus cannot override this. They won't flip the answer, but can give us insight into the why or who. They cannot stand alone, though.

[greybeard]

Now 3 astrologers have told you the same thing: ElenaJ, me, and Wm Lilly. You can argue with Elena and me. I'd be careful about arguing with Mr. Lilly though.

Lilly calls Sun & Venus "general significators". I called them natural rulers. Same thing.

In any case, the significance of Sun-Venus is supplemental, "in addition to" ["besides", Lilly]. They do not supplant the mandate of the house lords.

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Now 3 astrologers have told you the same thing: ElenaJ, me, and Wm Lilly. You can argue with Elena and me. I'd be careful about arguing with Mr. Lilly though.

Lilly calls Sun & Venus "general significators". I called them natural rulers. Same thing.

I'm not arguing with anyone sorry I don't know what you are talking about. You said that the 7th house isn't sex. So I asked if you are supposed to use the 5th house for the other person when you are asking about sex.

[greybeard]

Yes , you are. The 5th is "illicit love affairs", i.e., sex outside of wedlock. Mistresses and gigolos live in the 5th.

This means Mars rules Lover Boy. Mars and Jupiter are trine, but Mars heads off into Virgo, a new and different energy field. So how will you interpret that?

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes , you are. The 5th is "illicit love affairs", i.e., sex outside of wedlock. Mistresses and gigolos live in the 5th.

This means Mars rules Lover Boy. Mars and Jupiter are trine, but Mars heads off into Virgo, a new and different energy field. So how will you interpret that?

So you’re saying that’s a no then I get it I guess I’ll just wait to see what happens then.

[ChildOfVenus]

But there is a trine from Mars to the Moon so what does that mean? If there is a separating conjunction between the two sigs. But then it makes an applying aspect to the Moon?

[ChildOfVenus]

Originally Posted by ElenaJ

No offence was taken by me, ChildofVenus, I think I understand what you are referring to.
You give a link where in fact it says, "Besides the main significators, Lilly tells us to consider the Sun as a general significator for the man and Venus as a general significator for the woman.".
That first word "Besides" is very important.
If the main significators are not coming together or have no relationship to each other, then the sun or Venus cannot override this. They won't flip the answer, but can give us insight into the why or who. They cannot stand alone, though.

Ok I understand now and is it the case that the 5th house should be used for the person you are asking about when it comes to sex? I’ve read different things about this. Some stating that the 7th house should still be used. But if this person is just a friend shouldn’t they be represented by the 11th house?

[ElenaJ]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Yes , you are. The 5th is "illicit love affairs", i.e., sex outside of wedlock. Mistresses and gigolos live in the 5th.

This means Mars rules Lover Boy. Mars and Jupiter are trine, but Mars heads off into Virgo, a new and different energy field. So how will you interpret that?

If we go back to step one on this thread, ChildofVenus writes about her "friend" being angry and "seeing each other again." , which is not necessarily romantic.
Then we move onto "Ok, so I asked if we would be sexually involved".
Just to point out that the houses in these sentences are shifting, and like Greybeard wrote, this is basic to interpreting the chart, so this presents a big problem.
Last week by coincidence two people sent me almost the identical chart, for completely two different queries, and there were two completely different answers. From basically the same chart, because the questions touched different houses.
With reference to ChildofVenus' chart, a friend would be the 11th house. Venus is the ruler of the 11th, inconjunct the ascendent ruler so not connecting there, and approaching an opposition to cold Saturn. So the answer would be no. Moon from the ascendent separates from easy trine with mercury to an inconjunct with separative Uranus confirming the negative.
"Would we be sexually involved?". This is a different question.
So here the "other" is 7th, and we look for connections between 7 and ascendent but also 5 (love affairs) and 8 (querent's sex). Now we have 7th ruler mercury approaching a conjunction with 5th ruler mars, in the querent's 8th house of sex. Mars moves towards a trine with retrograde Jupiter. So the answer to this question would be yes.
So you see, the precision of the question, and understanding what the question is, would be the first step to interpreting the chart. And this is so important.
Assigning the significators is essential, and if you don't get that right, the answer will be skewered. And the significators are assigned according to the houses involved in the question asked.