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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-04-2013, 05:00 AM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Question Astrology As Science

I am a student-fan of Santos Bonacci (among others) who could more precisely be named as an authority on astrotheology.

http://www.universaltruthschool.com/

http://www.schooloftheholyscience.or...antos-bonacci/

http://www.prometheanreach.com/santosbonacci

Mr. Bonacci repeatedly claims that "astrology is science" or science-based but fails to make a definitive case for that statement.

I am not an astrology expert by any stretch but I am of certain countenance that does say if you are going to arrange yourself as a proponent of astrology proven by science - or that it is a science - then one should have to be detailed as to the those facts.

Any comment is appreciated.

Regards,

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Unread 07-04-2013, 05:45 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
I am not an astrology expert by any stretch but I am of certain countenance that does say if you are going to arrange yourself as a proponent of astrology proven by science - or that it is a science - then one should have to be detailed as to the those facts.

Any comment is appreciated.

Regards,

There are details. You may feel free to go and read them. I suggest starting with the Persians. Otherwise, my question to you is exactly the same I would pose to the "friend" you pointed out earlier. Why ever would you come to an astrology forum and demand that the "proponents" prove themselves?

This has ever been thus, and is why there became over the thousands of years of astrology strictures against judgement. If you want to learn about astrology, go learn. Do not expect to engage "proponents" of the science of astrology in theological straw men about supposed scientific methods until you yourself can understand and explain the logic behind it.

Trolling is against forum rules. And trolls come in all shapes and sizes.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 10:08 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science

I once took a course in the philosophy of science. The professor said you have to come to the philosophy department to learn what the scientific method really is because it is too controversial for the science department. It went through the scientific method in detail, so I know what it really is.

This was also the only time in academia that I have ever heard astrology discussed in detail. He was trying to define the word pseudo-science. But as he concluded there is no definition of astrology as a pseudo-science that will not also include chemistry and physics. Astrology when carefully examined meets all the requirements of the scientific method. It is not supernatural.

And you sound as if you have the method backward. The science of astrology has been around for along time. We do not have to prove it to you; you have to disprove it us. The burden of proof is on you. That is the way science works: theories are valid until disproven.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 01:39 PM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
I once took a course in the philosophy of science. The professor said you have to come to the philosophy department to learn what the scientific method really is because it is too controversial for the science department. It went through the scientific method in detail, so I know what it really is.
Splendid!

Quote:
This was also the only time in academia that I have ever heard astrology discussed in detail. He was trying to define the word pseudo-science. But as he concluded there is no definition of astrology as a pseudo-science that will not also include chemistry and physics. Astrology when carefully examined meets all the requirements of the scientific method. It is not supernatural.
Mr. Bonacci claims that astrology is science, is scientific, is science-based. Although I find him to be an honourable and credible man, I cannot find a discussion of relevance to this claim. I am a fan of his, did you miss that?

I am quite well aware of the astrotheological underscoring of the Bible so I do maintain an educated but not scholarly understanding of astrology; i.e. the I understand the relationships between Biblical allegory, story origins, the Zodiac, the planets, etc. What I seek is a detailed accounting of astrology using the scientific method to prove Mr. Bonacci's hypothesis-fact.

Quote:
And you sound as if you have the method backward. The science of astrology has been around for along time. We do not have to prove it to you; you have to disprove it us. The burden of proof is on you. That is the way science works: theories are valid until disproven.
<sigh>

You have taken astrology and moved it from science to theory. Oh well.

Why so defensive? I only ask that we - you and I and other Members of this forum - enter into a discussion that would enlighten me as to Bonacci-your claim. Is that so much to ask - in an astrology forum?

Perhaps it is.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 01:44 PM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

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There are details. You may feel free to go and read them. I suggest starting with the Persians. Otherwise, my question to you is exactly the same I would pose to the "friend" you pointed out earlier. Why ever would you come to an astrology forum and demand that the "proponents" prove themselves?
I demanded no such thing and an apology is in order. I requested comment, discussion, free course of idea flow.

Quote:
This has ever been thus, and is why there became over the thousands of years of astrology strictures against judgement. If you want to learn about astrology, go learn.
But not here, yes? <sigh>

Quote:
Do not expect to engage "proponents" of the science of astrology in theological straw men about supposed scientific methods until you yourself can understand and explain the logic behind it.

Trolling is against forum rules. And trolls come in all shapes and sizes.
And responses.
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  #6  
Unread 07-04-2013, 04:24 PM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Truth is, astrology cannot be considered a science - by modern science standards - since it is not a funded project of modern science. No funding, no study. No study, no results.

Astrology lies outside the dogmatic scientific structure just as astrotheology is dismissed by mainstream religion.

Is this a bad thing? Of course not. Astrology survives on its legs of accuracy, it sits upon a mound of made of the preponderance of evidence that it works. Astrotheology is noting more than simple extensions of the world of the authors and those that understood the relationships between soul, souls ascension, true knowledge and the universe put to paper. Or maybe it was papyrus.

Mr. Bonacci, in the heat of his passion, misses this point entirely. Why would he want astrology to be accepted by modern science?

I don't.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 05:39 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
Truth is, astrology cannot be considered a science - by modern science standards - since it is not a funded project of modern science. No funding, no study. No study, no results.

Astrology lies outside the dogmatic scientific structure just as astrotheology is dismissed by mainstream religion.

Is this a bad thing? Of course not. Astrology survives on its legs of accuracy, it sits upon a mound of made of the preponderance of evidence that it works. Astrotheology is noting more than simple extensions of the world of the authors and those that understood the relationships between soul, souls ascension, true knowledge and the universe put to paper. Or maybe it was papyrus.

Mr. Bonacci, in the heat of his passion, misses this point entirely. Why would he want astrology to be accepted by modern science?
I don't
.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion


None of the responders on this thread is either 'right' nor 'wrong'... in India for example, astrology is most definitely considered a Science and IF one feels a need for official definition, then one has the option to practice Indian/Vedic astrology - since that is officially scientific.

If one learns astrology as practised by Vettius Valens and the ancients one may draw one's own conclusions.

However, few are willing to learn and apply the ancient techniques and so all that remains are these theoretical 'discussions' based on 'opinion'. How long is a piece of string?
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Unread 07-04-2013, 05:50 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
None of the responders on this thread is either 'right' nor 'wrong'... in India for example, astrology is most definitely considered a Science and IF one feels a need for official definition, then one has the option to practice Indian/Vedic astrology - since that is officially scientific.
I disagree. The courts declaring something a science doesn't mean it fits the definition of what science is. Especially in the western world when we do have a pretty hard definition of science. If anything, the courts saying that just made a bunch of people roll their eyes (this poster included).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoCrisis
Truth is, astrology cannot be considered a science - by modern science standards - since it is not a funded project of modern science. No funding, no study. No study, no results.
I also disagree with this. Lack of funding isn't why astrology isn't a science. Astrology isn't a science because (even if there were funding) there wouldn't be a way to test it, there's no known cause of astrology, it isn't repeatable, etc. Astrology as science just has a lot of problems that it's best to overlook. That's not to say that some of these problems couldn't be solved, as, after all, everything that is now known was once unknown and thought impossible.

This isn't to say that at one time astrology wasn't or couldn't have been considered a science, but it struggles to live up to those expectations with the current definition.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 06:04 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
I disagree. The courts declaring something a science doesn't mean it fits the definition of what science is. Especially in the western world when we do have a pretty hard definition of science. If anything, the courts saying that just made a bunch of people roll their eyes (this poster included).

I also disagree with this. Lack of funding isn't why astrology isn't a science. Astrology isn't a science because (even if there were funding) there wouldn't be a way to test it, there's no known cause of astrology, it isn't repeatable, etc. Astrology as science just has a lot of problems that it's best to overlook. That's not to say that some of these problems couldn't be solved, as, after all, everything that is now known was once unknown and thought impossible.


This isn't to say that at one time astrology wasn't or couldn't have been considered a science, but it struggles to live up to those expectations with the current definition.
Perhaps then the question to answer is: '

What is meant by the word Science'?

How long is a piece of string?
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Unread 07-04-2013, 07:38 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

Science is statistical in nature. It takes one million molecules, or beams of light, or specimens of the Martian Boreal Red Fungus and determnes laws that hold true for this statistical mass. It seeks material causation.

Astrology is a science of individuality. What it seeks to understand is the Exception to the statistical norm. It wants to find out the what and how of Difference, not Conformity. And its causation is of the not-material realm.

Not something "science" can chew on and digest. Astrology is superstion, pseudo-science and Hokum.

It can't be proved, except by understanding how it works, and then examining its results.

And just what is astrotheology? Are we going back to the worship of Ishtahar?

One "proof" of astrology (of the correctness of its teachings from long ago) is found in the Lagrange Points (gravity-neutral points or areas in space lying between/around two massive bodies, such as Sun and Jupiter.)

These points (two of them, L4 and L5) demonstrate in "the real world" -- in interplanetary space -- the nature of the trine aspect, which turns out to be just what ancient astrologers always said it was.

Go to my thread on the nature of the aspects. The trine is described there. Then go to "Lagranian Points" online. The European Space Agency has a good site on the subject, and you will probably want to study at least two or three other sites as well.

You will note that both L4 and L5 lie at the third apex of an equilateral triangle (the basis of the trine aspect), with Sun and Earth, or Sun and Jupiter, or Sun and Neptune forming the base of the triangle from the other two apices. Both "momentum" and "accretion", properties of the trine aspect, are illustrated at L4 and L5.

Astrology is a curious mixture of hard science and art. (But then, most of "hard science" involves a lot more art than is normally recognized.) The foundation of astrology is hard science, rigorous mathematical calculation, etc. It is still astronomy. But once the horoscope (a map of the sky) is cast, science and disciplined method are joined by art, and this is why astrology "can't be proved."

Last edited by greybeard; 07-04-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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  #11  
Unread 07-05-2013, 12:26 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
Mr. Bonacci repeatedly claims that "astrology is science" or science-based but fails to make a definitive case for that statement.
Then he doesn't sound too bright, so stop reading the nonsense he writes.

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Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
I am not an astrology expert by any stretch but I am of certain countenance that does say if you are going to arrange yourself as a proponent of astrology proven by science - or that it is a science - then one should have to be detailed as to the those facts.
There are Sumerian texts from 7,000 years ago (circa 5,000 BCE) that talk about Planets ensnaring things in their "nets" and casting light and casting rays.

What does that mean? It means they were infinitely more intelligent than we are....this is the 21st Century, you have public education systems in nearly every State on Earth, and yet the vast majority of people don't even know that the formula for the Force of Gravity is...

F(g) = M1 * M2 / d^2

How would you explain Gravity to a child that is 4 years old?

"You know how you dip your net into the water to catch goldfish or tadpoles?"

"Yeah."

"Well, Gravity is just like your net, only you can't see Gravity."


It isn't until the late 1950s that our so-called "advanced civilization" figures out there really is a "net" and they call that "net" a "Gravity-well."

And so for science fiction shows for the next 20 years or so -- like the Original Star Trek -- you hear them saying things like: "Captain, we're going to get caught in the Planet's Gravity-well."

If you get stuck in Earth's Gravity-well, you need to be moving at a speed of 17,500 Miles Per Hour to escape the net...and no, I don't know what that is in Kilometers Per Hour (and don't care).

In the Arabic, Farsi, and Latin texts, you see the phrase "[Saturn]...hurling its rays at...."

That's real....it really happens....and that is science.

In reality, the Sun is the only celestial body that actually casts light; the Moon and Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn reflect light...

....that's why we can see them.

Light is electromagnetic radiation.

In the middle of the electromagnetic radiation band are the colors....to the right of the blues, you have violet, then ultra-violet (UV), then X-Rays, then Gamma Rays.

To the left of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum, you have your yellows, oranges, reds and then infrared (IR), microwaves, radar, VHF/UHF, short wave radio, AM and FM radio bands.

Your eyes have evolved to allow you to see select frequencies in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum which are the colors.

An object absorbs frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, but reflects certain frequencies back at you, and that is what you are seeing....the reflected frequencies -- the color --- the specific wavelengths in the electromagnetic radiation band.

Asteroids do not reflect light, therefore, logically, rationally, scientifically, asteroids have no impact or affect on you. Likewise, the Outer Planets -- Uranus, Neptune and Pluto do not reflect light, and they have no affect on you individually and there is no possible way using math or science to justify that they do.

In addition to reflecting light, the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn also hurl rays (although the Sun really does cast Ultra-Violet Rays, X-Rays and Gamma Rays).

Space is not "empty." Space is filled with particles -- electromagnetic radiation -- from the Sun.

As the Planets move through Space, their mass, their orbital velocity (speed) and their exact chemical/elemental make-up creates something called the magnetosphere.

The magnetosphere reflects (some but not all) electromagnetic radiation away from it.

The magnetosphere on each of the Planets is "tuned" to attenuate certain frequencies in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum. The Earth's magnetosphere does a great job of screening out Gamma rays, a decent job of screening out X-Rays, a mediocre job of screening out UV rays and then a really bad job of screening out everything from the colors through microwave, radar and the radio bands.

But, then....we already knew that, didn't we?

If the Earth's magnetosphere filtered out electromagnet frequencies in the color band, then we wouldn't see anything outside of Earth, and if it screened out frequencies in the radio band, we would not be able to communicate with are satellites and probes.

Anyway, the magnetospheres of the Planets reflect certain frequencies at certain rates to Earth....

...and that is scientific fact, not speculation.

Since the advent of radio in the early 20th Century, it has been known that radio are affected by other forms of electromagnetic radiation. The primary cause is ionized particles in the Earth's stratosphere and mesosphere. The region in the stratosphere and mesosphere that is heavily ionized is known as the "ionosphere."

These ionized particles severely degrade the performance of microwave, radar, VHF, UHF, Short Wave and AM radio signals, and diminish the performance of FM radio signals.

This degrading of performance caused a lot of angst in the US Army, Air Force and Navy, and also with companies involved in radio communications, like Motorola.

It was noted that certain alignments of Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn could either neutralize the effects of the ionosphere, or amplify the effects. Scientific studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific and engineering journals showed that Planets in sextile marginally improve radio performance; in trine they strongly improve performance; in square they strongly hamper performance, and in opposition they severely impede performance; and that Planets in conjunction could harm or help.

What is the Doctrine of Aspects in Traditional Astrology?

Sextiles indicate weak friendship
Trines show strong friendship
Squares show enmity
Oppositions conflict
Conjunctions can be helpful or harmful

Well, there you go....scientific proof that people knew more about the world around them 7,000 years ago than they do now.

Anyway, asteroids do not have sufficient mass and/or speed to generate magnetopheres, which is the other reason we ignore them, and while Uranus and Pluto generate magnetospheres (no verification yet on whether Pluto does), they are nothing like the size of magnetospheres of Jupiter and Saturn, and their vast distance from Earth precludes the possibility that the Outer Planets can affect individuals...

...F(g) = M1 * M2 / d^2

Good luck with that.
As far as the mathematical side of Astrology, archeaological excavations in Jericho show it was inhabited and functioned as trading.military outpost 9,000 years ago circa 7,000 BCE. A fresco on a wall in one of the buildings depicts a crab --- Cancer. Well, no kidding, since 9,000 years ago was the Age of Cancer.

What a shocker.

We know the Zodiac existed then. The Sumerians claim that 12,000 years ago circa 10,000 BCE during the Age of Leo there was a cataclysmic event on Earth, and that after this event, the pyramids at Gizeh were erected, and the sphinx --- a man's head on the body of a lion --- commemorated the event.

Another shocker.

In caves in France and Spain, drawings depicting a bow and arrow were originally believed to be a symbol for hunting, but now some archaeologists and anthropologists are claiming that the bow and arrow are actually the symbol for Sagittarius, and that people occupied the caves during the Age of Sagittarius some 22,000 years ago circa 20,000 BCE, which would indicate the Zodiac existed even then.

Wow, the common sense is shocking.

And then Sumerian and Akkadian texts claim the Zodiac was put together during the Age of Pisces.

Because of the effects of precession, the Zodiac moves backwards... Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn, Sagittarius, until you get to 29°59' of Aries, and then eventually 15° of Aries and then eventually, um, Zero Point Aries.

Gosh, what a shocker.

So the Zodiac is ancient and more than that, it incorporates the Base 60 (Sexigismal) Number System instead of the Base 10 (Decimal) Number System.

Everything I have studied about Astrology going back to Mesopotamia, suggests one of two possible conclusions:

1] Astrology evolved from Numerology as a divination system; or

2] Numerology evolved from Astrology as a Poor Man's version of divination.

I lean very heavily toward the latter. Does that mean I "believe in" Numerology?

No. I categorically reject it in is entirety.

Why? I just explained why. It is 100% corrupted. Numerology was founded on the Base 60 Number System, so you cannot use it with the Base 10 Number System. If you could find and translate ancient texts about Numerology, and if you could figure out the Base 60 Number System, and if you could then correctly employ the Base 60 Systems with the doctrines, I think you might be onto something. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Anyway, there are so-called "sacred" numbers like 1, 12, 60, 72, 120, 360, 3,600 and 432,000 that are preserved in one way or another in many different schemes, systems and relationships.

Traditional Astrology (but not Modern Astrology) preserves a lot of those sacred numbers. There's an almost fanatical obsession with the number 120.

The number 120 is prominent in Hebrew texts, and 120 * 3600 = 432,000.

According to Norse (and other north/central European) traditions, there are 800 doors in Valhalla, and on Judgment Day, 540 warriors will exit each of the 800 doors...

....540 * 800 = 432,000

If we go to India, the yugas are based on multiples of 432,000.

Shocker.

Anyway, much of the knowledge about Astrology, including the true mathematical basis and relationships were lost over time.

A group of people –- the Gutians -– came from where ever it was they came from and destroyed the people Kushites (who lived west of the Zagros Mountains) and then proceeded to dismantle Sumer & Akkad circa 2100 BCE.

Then there was about 100 years of “barracks emperors” (sort of like in Rome after Marcus Aurelius died) and then the Akkadians rose up and routed the Gutians.

Then circa 2000 BCE, there was the incident at Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains, which scientists and archaeologists are now suggesting an asteroid or comet exploded over the region in the same manner as Tunguska causing its destruction.

For whatever strange, fascinating, bizarre reason, that incident caused the total collapse of the Sumerian Civilization, and they fled, never to be seen again (supposedly), and then the Amorites --- erroneously called Babylonians --- over-ran the Akkadian Civilization and that was the end of that.

To make matters worse, circa 1900 BCE, the Celts, a group of Slavs and another unknown group over-ran and totally wiped out the Hittite Kingdom and Civilization.

Just as Rome was the cultural and scientific learning center of the world, and the light went out when it was destroyed and we entered the Dark Ages, the same thing happened here.

Sumer & Akkad were the cultural and scientific learning centers of the ancient world, and when the light went out, we entered the Dark Ages.

Information flowed from Sumer & Akkad to Egypt, and then through the Hittite Kingdom to the Eastern Greeks in Phrygia and Lydia, and then to the Western Greeks on the mainland. The destruction of the Hittite Kingdom cut off the flow information out of Mesopotamia, and the destruction of Sumer & Akkad cut off the flow of all information.

From that point forward, you have two separate distinct civilizations rise, the Greeks and the Egyptians (and further east of the Zagros Mountains the Persians and Medes).

And then the Greeks conquer the Egyptians and Persians, and then the Romans conquer all of them, and then the Turks conquer all of them, and the next thing you know, it’s Spring-time in Germany for Hitler.

If people cannot figure out an organic alcohol chain or botch it up its formation, that does not mean that organic chemistry is fatally flawed….it just means people don’t get it.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with Astrology, but there are people who don’t get it, people who muck it up intentionally, and then the artful practitioners are still trying to get to the bottom of many of the doctrines, and that’s hampered by not having access to texts or being able to locate/recover ancient texts.

So, there you go.




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Unread 07-05-2013, 12:28 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
One "proof" of astrology (of the correctness of its teachings from long ago) is found in the Lagrange Points (gravity-neutral points or areas in space lying between/around two massive bodies, such as Sun and Jupiter.)

These points (two of them, L4 and L5) demonstrate in "the real world" -- in interplanetary space -- the nature of the trine aspect, which turns out to be just what ancient astrologers always said it was.
The things I did not know.
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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 07-05-2013, 05:28 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Lack of funding isn't why astrology isn't a science. Astrology isn't a science because (even if there were funding) there wouldn't be a way to test it, there's no known cause of astrology, it isn't repeatable, etc. Astrology as science just has a lot of problems that it's best to overlook. That's not to say that some of these problems couldn't be solved, as, after all, everything that is now known was once unknown and thought impossible.

This isn't to say that at one time astrology wasn't or couldn't have been considered a science, but it struggles to live up to those expectations with the current definition.
On this we agree and is why I question Mr. Bonacci's insistence on claiming astrology - or astrotheology - is a science.

What I find additionally disconcerting is that Bonacci shows strict and repeated irreverence to all major religions and mainstream modern science yet, in a fit of passion for astrology, he insists it is science.

It is my opinion that he seeks to align his version of astrology with science in order to justify it as valid in the minds of his devotees. Apparently this dichotomy works as I am the only one that I know who follows his podcasts, webinars, radio shows, etc. that has brought to light his philosophical confusion.

Or perhaps he means that astrology is "old science" or "lost science"; if so, then he has an entirely different argument.
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  #14  
Unread 07-05-2013, 05:36 AM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoCrisis
Mr. Bonacci repeatedly claims that "astrology is science" or science-based but fails to make a definitive case for that statement.

Bob Zemco warbles "Then he doesn't sound too bright, so stop reading the nonsense he writes."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfair Bob, the history of proponents of astrology is chock full of excellent sources who from time to time were incorrect or imagined to be so.Bonacci's astrotheology is sound. His passion for astrology is unquestioned.Maybe he means that astrology is an old, forgotten science.

No reason to toss him off. Have you watched to any of his YouTube videos? Don't you think you should before passing such harsh judgments?
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Unread 07-05-2013, 05:50 AM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
And just what is astrotheology? Are we going back to the worship of Ishtahar?
Astrotheology is theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies with special emphasis in the Western World as to how astrology (particularly the Zodiac) were the underpinnings of the Bible, the Messianic Story and its history going back to...wherever you feel comfortable. Thoth?

It shows the repetitiveness of the oral and written astrological understanding, teachings and traditions which ultimately evolved into modern Christianity (and other major religions of which I claim no real understanding).

I am surprised this forum has no subsection for it. If you are a student of historical astronomy it is impossible not to align astrotheology with it.
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  #16  
Unread 07-05-2013, 11:20 AM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
....Bob Zemco warbles "Then he doesn't sound too bright, so stop reading the nonsense he writes."

Unfair Bob, the history of proponents of astrology is chock full of excellent sources who from time to time were incorrect or imagined to be so.Bonacci's astrotheology is sound. His passion for astrology is unquestioned.Maybe he means that astrology is an old, forgotten science.

No reason to toss him off. Have you watched to any of his YouTube videos? Don't you think you should before passing such harsh judgments?
To be fair, Bob Zemco simply commented on a comment you yourself posted criticising Mr Bonacci i.e.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
Mr. Bonacci repeatedly claims that "astrology is science" or science-based but fails to make a definitive case for that statement.
And in view of what you said there was a response based on your own criticism of Mr Bonacci
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Then he doesn't sound too bright, so stop reading the nonsense he writes.....
Everyone is entitled to their opinion

The title of this thread is: 'Astrology As Science' but it appears that your intention is to encourage a discussion as to whether or not SPECIFICALLY a person known as Mr Bonacci has or has not 'failed to make a definitive case for astrology being a science'

Mr Bonacci certainly seems to have stimulated your interest in a discussion on the thread title 'Astrology As Science' - and that could be an interesting discussion.

However, if you require contributors to research Mr Bonacci before responding to the theme of the discussion then I'm highlighting that in all fairness, Mr Bonacci is not the only person with an opinion on the matter - therefore one would assume that any discussion on Astrology As Science can occur with or without Mr Bonacci.


You then said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoCrisis View Post
Astrotheology is theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies with special emphasis in the Western World as to how astrology (particularly the Zodiac) were the underpinnings of the Bible, the Messianic Story and its history going back to...wherever you feel comfortable. Thoth?

It shows the repetitiveness of the oral and written astrological understanding, teachings and traditions which ultimately evolved into modern Christianity (and other major religions of which I claim no real understanding).

I am surprised this forum has no subsection for it. If you are a student of historical astronomy it is impossible not to align astrotheology with it.
Life is full of surprises

If you would like to suggest that this forum has a subsection for 'Astrotheology' then do post your request on the 'Help With The Forums And Suggestions' forum at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...splay.php?f=22

Then members discuss the issue

Meanwhile, regarding Astrology As Science, in order to clarify the parameters of this discussion, perhaps we need to define what is meant by 'astrology'
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  #17  
Unread 07-05-2013, 05:53 PM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
To be fair, Bob Zemco simply commented on a comment you yourself posted criticising Mr Bonacci i.e.

And in view of what you said there was a response based on your own criticism of Mr Bonacci

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

The title of this thread is: 'Astrology As Science' but it appears that your intention is to encourage a discussion as to whether or not SPECIFICALLY a person known as Mr Bonacci has or has not 'failed to make a definitive case for astrology being a science'

Mr Bonacci certainly seems to have stimulated your interest in a discussion on the thread title 'Astrology As Science' - and that could be an interesting discussion.

However, if you require contributors to research Mr Bonacci before responding to the theme of the discussion then I'm highlighting that in all fairness, Mr Bonacci is not the only person with an opinion on the matter - therefore one would assume that any discussion on Astrology As Science can occur with or without Mr Bonacci.


You then said:

Life is full of surprises

If you would like to suggest that this forum has a subsection for 'Astrotheology' then do post your request on the 'Help With The Forums And Suggestions' forum at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...splay.php?f=22

Then members discuss the issue.


Done, thx for the heads-up!

Quote:
Meanwhile, regarding Astrology As Science, in order to clarify the parameters of this discussion, perhaps we need to define what is meant by 'astrology'
Yes, here's my attempt.

Astrology has as a basic or underlying tenet the link between celestial or astronomical phenomena and human or terrestrial events.
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  #18  
Unread 07-05-2013, 11:12 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

DinoCrisis,

Max Heindel, the leader( Asc.) in the early 1900s of the Rosicrucian Fellowship in Oceanside, Ca. USA, husband of his astrologer wife Augusta Foss, stated repeatedly astrology was a science and '... that one day science and religion would become one...', no doubt through his wife Angusta he was speaking of the coming Age of Aquarius.

What studious astrologer can not see the astrological correlation recorded by John on Patmos Island and preserved for mankind in this verse?

Revelation 4:7 KJV

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Leo, Taurus, Aquarius, and Scorpio which are on many Church buildings in old Europe.

http://solsticepoint.com/astrologers...l/couples.html

http://www.rosicrucian.com/

William F. Lilly, acknowledged by many as the greatest horary astrologer West of Constaninople, taught that Religion, Science, and Astrology are of the 9th house.

This is a must see for anyone claiming to be an astrologer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz-qJuCKf-g

And of course there is more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgHFSONQDac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdq9to1ccqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOBjsNsAu0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=204gWVOkJZ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpYhcclPkoU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAE6coREYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bydlOrCMPm8


DinoCrisis, wouldn't you say that Santos would say that the scripture I cite at the end of this post is directly stating the astrological correlation of what happens on the earth is foretold in the sky?

I have to add:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUAEFKg25Jw


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men trully know how little they know

Matthew 18:18 (New King James Version)

18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 07-05-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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  #19  
Unread 07-05-2013, 11:42 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule View Post
Revelation 4:7 KJV

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Leo, Taurus, Aquarius, and Scorpio which are on many Church buildings in old Europe.
Curiouser and curiouser.... There's more than just the Fixed Signs



Leon: Church of San Isodora Zodiac Carvings
From left to right: Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn,
Sagittarius, Scorpio and Libra




Leon: Church of San Isodora Zodiac Carvings
From left to right: Virgo, Leo, Cancer, Gemini,
Taurus and Aries





Leon: Church of San Isodora
across the top of the arch are the 12th century Zodiac carvings.
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  #20  
Unread 07-06-2013, 12:50 AM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

JupiterAsc, could you post another youtube on this, my govt. has blocked it in the USA on copyright grounds?

Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4SVVKuOr0c


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 Expanded Bible
[ Wise Men Come to Visit Jesus ] ·When [After] Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea during the time when Herod was king, some ·wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology] from the east came to Jerusalem.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904
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  #21  
Unread 07-06-2013, 05:40 AM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Clinton Soule;

There is nothing of which you post that I or Santos Bonacci - taking liberty to speak for him yet understanding his teachings quite well - would disagree other than my premise, in disagreement with Bonacci's - that there does not exist, nor has there been in this thread or my research shown, any definitive acceptance by modern science that astrology - or astrotheology - is a matter of science.

Because Bonacci, you or the Rosies, or anyone else states that astrology is a science does not make it so. As I have said repeatedly before, I really don't give a **** about defining astrology or astrotheology as a science.

Bonacci does.

Excellent post, thank you for that.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...d=1#post484923
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  #22  
Unread 07-06-2013, 05:47 AM
DinoCrisis DinoCrisis is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post



Leon: Church of San Isodora Zodiac Carvings
From left to right: Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn,
Sagittarius, Scorpio and Libra




Leon: Church of San Isodora Zodiac Carvings
From left to right: Virgo, Leo, Cancer, Gemini,
Taurus and Aries




Leon: Church of San Isodora
across the top of the arch are the 12th century Zodiac carvings.

Curiouser and curiouser.... There's more than just the Fixed Signs
Much more. Much, much more.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...d=1#post484923
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  #23  
Unread 07-06-2013, 10:54 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Astrology As Science

Even though I see the OP is now banned this argument that astrology is not a science goes back to the Renasaince as Robert hand has stated casting us as a pseudo-science.

But many astrologers have took the stand that astrology is a science:

1) The teachers at the Rosicrucian Fellowship

http://www.rosicrucian.com/ssa/ssaeng01.htm

2)William F. Lilly put astrology, philosophy, and Science in the same house, the ninth(Philosophy, Scince, Religion, etc.)

3)Robert Hand the Science of astrology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxWRBmo-ls

4)test out if astrology is scientific:

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/astrology_checklist

5) What does Wikipedia say?

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/astrology_checklist

6)This group thinks it is:

http://www.scienceofastrology.com/

7) What does Psychology Today say:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...irms-astrology

8)Kevin Williams says Yes, it's scientic:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles012.html

9)Knowledge vs, Superstition

http://lastrealindians.com/science-v...-denny-gayton/

10)Arthur M. Young says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLqFKKXqajM

11)Albert Einstein said '...power comes in right angles..'

Now doesn't sound just like a square which is Mars like, forcing things to move?

12)Western and Vedic astrology is it scientific?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o9pEvJ3ah4

13)Kings of the past and wise men studied astrology as a science, Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOFQMKfT5s

14)Jewish Einstein was famous for saying something about his unbelief of God playing Dice with the universe:

http://www.hawking.org.uk/does-god-play-dice.html


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Psalm 19:1-4 Amplified Bible (AMP)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.
2 Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor spoken word [from the stars]; their voice is not heard.
4 Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world. Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun,

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 07-06-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 07-06-2013, 11:57 PM
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Re: Astrology As Science

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule View Post
JupiterAsc, could you post another youtube on this, my govt. has blocked it in the USA on copyright grounds?

Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4SVVKuOr0c


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 Expanded Bible
[ Wise Men Come to Visit Jesus ] ·When [After] Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea during the time when Herod was king, some ·wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology] from the east came to Jerusalem.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904
Hi Clinton Soule - my signature now has a different link to 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead' by Tom Stoppard

If it's still blocked perhaps then check online video providers
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  #25  
Unread 10-07-2017, 12:38 AM
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Re: Astrology As Science



LAWRENCE EDWARDS WORK WITH PLANT BUDS
http://www.astro-calendar.com/shtml/...edwards2.shtml

Lawrence Edwards, retired mathematics teacher
researched forms of living nature, using geometric analysis.
1982 daily began taking photographs of tree buds
on selection of trees
discovered that buds expanded and contracted
to an approximate fortnightly rhythm.
These periods varied between 13.6 and 14.7 days
but each species of bud kept the same period in their rhythm.
Edwards realised these were astronomical rhythms,
each period correlated to
Moon's alignment with a planet and Earth


'…..When Earth, Moon and planet were in straight line
buds of the tree where more rounded, expanded shape.
When Moon and planet where 900 apart
(as seen from the Earth)
the buds took on a more oval, contracted shape
sharp at one end and blunt at the other.
Even in the middle of Winter
buds are doing a rhythmic dance whose tune is called by the planetary movements......'



TREE--------------------------------ASPECTS BETWEEN-------------PERIOD DAYS

Ash-------------------------------------------Moon / Sun ---------------------------14.77

Elm -------------------------------------------Moon / Mercury -----------------------14.77
Birch -------------------------- ---- --------- Moon / Venus --------------------------14.77
Oak -------------------------------------------Moon / Mars --------------------------14.23
Maple, Sycamore -------------------------Moon / Jupiter ----------------------- 13.75
Beech, Hornbeam, Conifers ---- ------ Moon / Saturn ------------------------13.67
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