Lucedelsole
Active member
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Why does nearly every horary chart have a negative answer?
- Thread starter Lucedelsole
- Start date
I have seen positive (and neutral) answers appear pretty often, so I don't really agree. But I have noticed that many questions about relationships come from people who struggle a lot and cling to unhealthy relationships, then come here and expect people to tell them to continue down the same road...to which they get a negative answer. It's less common for people who enjoy their relationships to ask questions, because, well, why bother 
I have seen positive (and neutral) answers appear pretty often, so I don't really agree. But I have noticed that many questions about relationships come from people who struggle a lot and cling to unhealthy relationships, then come here and expect people to tell them to continue down the same road...to which they get a negative answer. It's less common for people who enjoy their relationships to ask questions, because, well, why bother
Exactly, plus said people will ask the same thing multiple times.
Marinka
Well-known member
Sometimes what seems to be the case is not.
Might I suggest that you take the last 100 horary threads over all the sub topics and determine whether positive or negative (or mixed) results were posted in the thread.
That would provide a more accurate picture of the breakout of positive/negative feedback.
Might I suggest that you take the last 100 horary threads over all the sub topics and determine whether positive or negative (or mixed) results were posted in the thread.
That would provide a more accurate picture of the breakout of positive/negative feedback.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
It's unlikely you have viewed every single post on every single horary thread on ALL of the horary categories on this forum
and so
although it seems to you that "nearly every horary you viewed is negative"
IF you had read each and every horary thread on every board in its entirety,
you would have discovered
that although some astrologers read the outcome as positive
yet on the same thread
other astrologers consider the outcome is negative
so its not clearcut
also
most people just ask their question
and are not interested in reading other threads
so those people would not be 'put off'
waybread
Well-known member
There is a belief in some quarters that horary astrology works because it is a map of the querent's mind at the moment s/he asks the question. I think oftentimes the querent secretly believes there will be a "no" answer, but somehow hopes that the stars will nevertheless give a different answer.
So many questions seem like a "no" even without the astrology, just based upon the statistical odds or the level of unreality the querent seems to place on the question. For example:
1. "When am I going to get married?" (Such questions try to manipulate the oracle. Shouldn't it be a "will I?" rather than a "when"?)
2. "Will my missing cat return? " (The cat has been gone for a week, and the querent hasn't yet checked with the local vet, animal shelter, or plastered the neighbourhood with fliers.)
3. "Does he love me?" (Further discussion reveals that he's a virtual stranger who texted her twice, is a player, or moved out last year to take up with her best friend, &c.)
4. ""Will I win the lottery?" Gambling is a 5th house matter, so we could read for this, but statistically the odds are well against any particular lottery player.
I don't know whether, statistically, if we look at the odds of the signifying planets applying to a favourable aspect, sharing essential dignity, the moon being helpful, and so on, are stacked against "yes" answers. I think they could be. If we consider just aspects,
1. applying squares and oppositions are unhelpful. If something happens, it doesn't happen well.
2. Planets making no Ptolemaic (major) aspect give a "no" without other mitigating factors (such as mutual reception.)
3. To be confirmed a favourable aspect or conjunction should be applying rather than separating.
4. The moon is VOC, suggesting that (unless it will aspect a planet from the next sign within a couple of degrees) nothing can be done about the matter.
Maybe the "no" answers more reflect that we are mostly amateurs on this site. William Lilly and some of the other classical astrologers gave a whole additional set of circumstances where a "yes" might be obtained. However, some of them were not desirable confirmations, like "Will I lose my job?" and the ruler of the 6th or 10th house is located in one of the "unfortunate" houses.
People turn to horary when something bothers them, which in and of itself suggests a negative approach to a problem. We seldom see questions like, "I am 40 and never partnered or married. I love my single state and the freedom it gives me. Is this situation likely to last?"
So many questions seem like a "no" even without the astrology, just based upon the statistical odds or the level of unreality the querent seems to place on the question. For example:
1. "When am I going to get married?" (Such questions try to manipulate the oracle. Shouldn't it be a "will I?" rather than a "when"?)
2. "Will my missing cat return? " (The cat has been gone for a week, and the querent hasn't yet checked with the local vet, animal shelter, or plastered the neighbourhood with fliers.)
3. "Does he love me?" (Further discussion reveals that he's a virtual stranger who texted her twice, is a player, or moved out last year to take up with her best friend, &c.)
4. ""Will I win the lottery?" Gambling is a 5th house matter, so we could read for this, but statistically the odds are well against any particular lottery player.
I don't know whether, statistically, if we look at the odds of the signifying planets applying to a favourable aspect, sharing essential dignity, the moon being helpful, and so on, are stacked against "yes" answers. I think they could be. If we consider just aspects,
1. applying squares and oppositions are unhelpful. If something happens, it doesn't happen well.
2. Planets making no Ptolemaic (major) aspect give a "no" without other mitigating factors (such as mutual reception.)
3. To be confirmed a favourable aspect or conjunction should be applying rather than separating.
4. The moon is VOC, suggesting that (unless it will aspect a planet from the next sign within a couple of degrees) nothing can be done about the matter.
Maybe the "no" answers more reflect that we are mostly amateurs on this site. William Lilly and some of the other classical astrologers gave a whole additional set of circumstances where a "yes" might be obtained. However, some of them were not desirable confirmations, like "Will I lose my job?" and the ruler of the 6th or 10th house is located in one of the "unfortunate" houses.
People turn to horary when something bothers them, which in and of itself suggests a negative approach to a problem. We seldom see questions like, "I am 40 and never partnered or married. I love my single state and the freedom it gives me. Is this situation likely to last?"
Oddity
Well-known member
And most of the examples you gave are forum questions, not questions that you deal with in an offline practice.
I have gotten 'will I marry, and if so when?' types of questions in real horary, but there's usually been some problems, and it's not been for lack of trying.
Lost pets. Sure - but that's after the person has checked the pound, put up flyers, searched, etc. You wouldn't answer it in a horary practice until then, because horary is used after other options have been exhausted, not before.
When will I get a job? Well, you might not get a job, which the astrologer might need to remind you if you're a new client, would you be okay with that answer? If not, don't ask.
He texted me twice, does he love me? As a rule, people aren't so willing to ask about that if they're paying, say $50 - $75 for a question, which seems to be the going rate. That's a good thing, too, because it's 99% idle curiosity, which also makes it not horary.
On a forum, people are far more likely to see horary simply as a means of entertainment, and they'll ask anything that strikes their fancy. But that's not how it was ever meant to work. Not to mention the whole way that charts are meant to be drawn up.
Take what you read on the horary forum here, or on astro.com or wherever else on the internet with a few grains of salt, in other words.
I have gotten 'will I marry, and if so when?' types of questions in real horary, but there's usually been some problems, and it's not been for lack of trying.
Lost pets. Sure - but that's after the person has checked the pound, put up flyers, searched, etc. You wouldn't answer it in a horary practice until then, because horary is used after other options have been exhausted, not before.
When will I get a job? Well, you might not get a job, which the astrologer might need to remind you if you're a new client, would you be okay with that answer? If not, don't ask.
He texted me twice, does he love me? As a rule, people aren't so willing to ask about that if they're paying, say $50 - $75 for a question, which seems to be the going rate. That's a good thing, too, because it's 99% idle curiosity, which also makes it not horary.
On a forum, people are far more likely to see horary simply as a means of entertainment, and they'll ask anything that strikes their fancy. But that's not how it was ever meant to work. Not to mention the whole way that charts are meant to be drawn up.
Take what you read on the horary forum here, or on astro.com or wherever else on the internet with a few grains of salt, in other words.
waybread
Well-known member
Oddity, you've raised an interesting possibility, about whether there are differences between a horary question-- and chart-- on a free Internet forum, vs. when a client pays a professional astrologer for his services.
I can well imagine that the level of seriousness of horary questions is higher, on average, with the latter. However, this mightn't always be the case. I have no doubt that many of the questions I read are deeply heart-felt. People on an astrology forum can be terribly lonely, for example.
So do you have any insights as to whether there are more "yes" answers when a professional astrologer is consulted? There could also be an effect in which a more knowledgeable pro simply uses more sophisticated methods than the novices on a forum would.
Generally I don't answer questions on an Internet forum that I find trivial, because I personally need to take the querent seriously in order to focus.
But it's an odd thing, that for a while I went through a spate of forum horary charts where the ruler of the querent or the quesited landed in the 5th house. I know a lot of alternate meanings of the 5th, including turned house options, and these just didn't seem to fit the question. But possibly it indicated that the querent was posting primarily for her own amusement-- a 5th house matter.
I can well imagine that the level of seriousness of horary questions is higher, on average, with the latter. However, this mightn't always be the case. I have no doubt that many of the questions I read are deeply heart-felt. People on an astrology forum can be terribly lonely, for example.
So do you have any insights as to whether there are more "yes" answers when a professional astrologer is consulted? There could also be an effect in which a more knowledgeable pro simply uses more sophisticated methods than the novices on a forum would.
Generally I don't answer questions on an Internet forum that I find trivial, because I personally need to take the querent seriously in order to focus.
But it's an odd thing, that for a while I went through a spate of forum horary charts where the ruler of the querent or the quesited landed in the 5th house. I know a lot of alternate meanings of the 5th, including turned house options, and these just didn't seem to fit the question. But possibly it indicated that the querent was posting primarily for her own amusement-- a 5th house matter.
Oddity
Well-known member
I think it's different. Obviously, you're not going to get 'no' five times in two weeks about whichever new bloke it is that day and 'is he the one?' because you're not going to be asking those kinds of questions constantly unless you've got money to burn and an astrologer who is infinitely patient.
A spiritualist friend of mine who doesn't charge is frequently pelted with the 'when will I marry?' question with no background whatsoever from the person asking, and I'm going to nominate him right now for the best answer ever: On your wedding day, of course.
Also bear in mind all of life's disappointments. We really don't get what we want far more often than we do get it. And by the time you're asking an astrologer what your chances are, they're probably pretty bad, because for most people, astrology is not the first port of call. It's the last, desperate port of call.
I think the advantages of working with an astrologer are that when you see patterns, sometimes they can help you find a way out of a difficult situation. Not something the 'he texted me' crowd usually wants to do, and also not something that most astrologers doing readings on forums for free want to put the time into. You're not getting paid, this is going to require looking at a lot of things in the person's past, and a lot of charts, and by Friday there'll be someone new anyway, so what's the point? Or they're just asking because they've run out of money after talking to ten psychics at tellmewhatiwanttohear.com, and want more validation that their dreams are going to come true. Woe betide anyone who tells them differently! This is more common in free forums than you think, trust me here.
In private practice, I've been able to tell people sometimes 'hey, it's not your fault. It's a bad situation, but you're not the one who was bad, you don't in some way deserve this', and sometimes that alone can help. And in a best case situation, you can look at electional times, and maybe find a path, narrow as it may be, for the person to get to the place they want to be. It happens. It's nice when it does. Personally, I'm a big advocate of both planetary charity and astrological magic, though I'm sensitive to the idea that it's going to make some people really uncomfortable - so with them, I don't bring it up. But most people are okay with electional, even though that's a form of magic, too, and it's nice when you can help someone with anything from making a successful marriage to buying a house, that they didn't think was going to be possible.
The downside is that we can't always do it. I wish we could.
I think one of the reasons I got into so much medical astrology, stressful as it is, is because it can be so helpful. In some ways modern medicine has got stuff over astrology. In other ways astrology has got modern medicine beat hands down - mostly in recognising that individuals are individuals, and in many cases, one size simply does not fit all, or being able to point someone in the right direction for a diagnosis that's being elusive. There's so much there.
I think few individuals in the world have a charmed life. And that a lot of answers are still going to come back as 'I'm sorry, but this won't happen for you'. But one of the terrific things about astrology, maybe the most terrific thing, is that it can show you some other possibilities, areas where things can go well, times that things can go well, that you probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise.
A spiritualist friend of mine who doesn't charge is frequently pelted with the 'when will I marry?' question with no background whatsoever from the person asking, and I'm going to nominate him right now for the best answer ever: On your wedding day, of course.
Also bear in mind all of life's disappointments. We really don't get what we want far more often than we do get it. And by the time you're asking an astrologer what your chances are, they're probably pretty bad, because for most people, astrology is not the first port of call. It's the last, desperate port of call.
I think the advantages of working with an astrologer are that when you see patterns, sometimes they can help you find a way out of a difficult situation. Not something the 'he texted me' crowd usually wants to do, and also not something that most astrologers doing readings on forums for free want to put the time into. You're not getting paid, this is going to require looking at a lot of things in the person's past, and a lot of charts, and by Friday there'll be someone new anyway, so what's the point? Or they're just asking because they've run out of money after talking to ten psychics at tellmewhatiwanttohear.com, and want more validation that their dreams are going to come true. Woe betide anyone who tells them differently! This is more common in free forums than you think, trust me here.
In private practice, I've been able to tell people sometimes 'hey, it's not your fault. It's a bad situation, but you're not the one who was bad, you don't in some way deserve this', and sometimes that alone can help. And in a best case situation, you can look at electional times, and maybe find a path, narrow as it may be, for the person to get to the place they want to be. It happens. It's nice when it does. Personally, I'm a big advocate of both planetary charity and astrological magic, though I'm sensitive to the idea that it's going to make some people really uncomfortable - so with them, I don't bring it up. But most people are okay with electional, even though that's a form of magic, too, and it's nice when you can help someone with anything from making a successful marriage to buying a house, that they didn't think was going to be possible.
The downside is that we can't always do it. I wish we could.
I think one of the reasons I got into so much medical astrology, stressful as it is, is because it can be so helpful. In some ways modern medicine has got stuff over astrology. In other ways astrology has got modern medicine beat hands down - mostly in recognising that individuals are individuals, and in many cases, one size simply does not fit all, or being able to point someone in the right direction for a diagnosis that's being elusive. There's so much there.
I think few individuals in the world have a charmed life. And that a lot of answers are still going to come back as 'I'm sorry, but this won't happen for you'. But one of the terrific things about astrology, maybe the most terrific thing, is that it can show you some other possibilities, areas where things can go well, times that things can go well, that you probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise.
waybread
Well-known member
LOL!
Which might refer back to the theory that the horary chart is mostly a map of what the querent already subliminally believes-- or knows.
Some people live with so much uncertainty and risk-aversion that fortune-telling seems very attractive to them. Often with younger people there is a lot of parental or social pressure to have life map out in a traditional way; and if life hasn't worked out according to the template, they begin to feel there is something wrong with them.
Oh, I've seen lots of it on free forums, Oddity-- believe me. I think it is helpful to compare a horary chart with a natal chart and transits/progressions, but have actually gotten my wrists slapped by on-line horary astrologers for saying so. (As in, "Hey, quit it: this here's a horary board, get it?")
In terms of "working on themselves," I find that to be a touchy issue. Few astrologers have their own lives beautifully worked out--in addition to possessing counseling credentials. On another forum I was encouraged (shamed?) to "work on myself" by a perfect stranger whose posts gave me no confidence that he had any insights into my life experiences. He asserted things about my career that were objectively wildly inaccurate. Another on-line astrologer who seemed to want to see his clients break down in tears in his consultations, subsequently mentioned practising theurgy, which can be really bad stuff. If I want to "work on myself" with an astrologer, it wouldn't be with these guys. Astrologers have their own horoscopes and the synastry with a particular client could simply be a really bad match.
Agree that its a good idea to give people at least small parcels of advice so they can make some empowering choices.
As you know, I don't believe in astrological amulets or charms, but I will sometimes make small suggestions based on the horoscope signs and elements. An unhappy Leo may benefit from spending more time outdoors in the sun, a desert holiday if possible, or simply lighting candles in the evening if not. Sometimes people with water sign emphases actually love the sea and benefit from more contact with bodies of water. An unhappy Taurus might benefit from gardening or taking a ceramics course.
The main thing is that they take some steps, however small, to live in ways more consistent with constructive interpretations of their charts.
While we can't practice medicine without a license, I think we can make suggestions for a patient to take up with her doctor. It's not as though medical information isn't on the Internet, with sites ranging from the Mayo Clinic to Joe Schmoe's alternative woo-woo health care blog.
Agreed!
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tsmall
Premium Member
I wanted to pick and choose out of this to reply to, but realized that it's pretty amazing in its entirety. Ptolemy, **** his racist heart, had it right in his defense of astrology, which every astrologer ever after attempted to copy (and dang if Bonatti didn't just go quite overboard doing it)...Prescience is useful. But really, it's only useful if you can use it. 99% of the time relationship horaries are going to net a negative answer. Why? Because if the answer was yes you'd already know and woudn't need to ask in the first place.
Horary is abused on this forum and most. Why? Because it isn't a magic 8 ball that you can shake and get the answer "ask again later." The stars don't impel, nor do they compel. They only report. And most of life isn't about getting what you want in the moment you want it. It's about learning to deal with not getting what you want in the moment you want it, and why.
A true question isn't idle. It keeps you awake at night. For nights on end. And even then, do not ask if you are not prepared to deal with the answer. Or, go ahead and ask on a free forum rather than pay a professional astrologer to help you work through the answer, all the while holding in the back of your mind that it's a free forum and you don't know anything about the astrologer or the answer you are getting. Even better, cast your own chart without knowing how to interpret it, then post it for someone else to read, then deny thy father and refuse thy name...
Our entire human existance is a series of punctuated highs and lows, with long periods of intense not a lot going on. The lows make you appreciate the highs, and vice versa. It's a life, and no matter what you can see of the immediate future, lucky or not, you are going to have to live it. Sometimes, you have experiences that will hurt you, but that you need to have to find your path. Astrology can point them out, but unless you want to give your whole life over to some considerable uncertantity and not actually live it, you are still going to have those highs and lows and not a lot goings on right now.
Yes or no is not the purpose of horary. Getting a negative answer can actually often be the key to unlocking a potential you never knew existed. "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers." Execept having the answer ahead of time, or just in time, can, for the receptive querent in the hands of a good astrologer, open paths that weren't thought of before.
"Does this boy love me?" No, but you love him, and right now this is the lesson the Universe is trying to teach you.
"Will I get this job?" No, but maybe this isn't the job for you. Maybe you are dodging a bullet and you don't even know it yet.
And so on. Horary, like the rest of astrology, isn't really about yes or no. It's about figuring out who you are, and which path you might want to explore when you get to those crossroads in your life.
My two cents worth anyway.
waybread
Well-known member
Beautiful, wise, and remarkable post, tsmall! Which leads to the conclusion that both astrologers, clients, and Internet forum approximations would benefit from more sincere wisdom all around.
I'm not a fan of the Law of Attraction in its full-blown format, but I do think that people can do a better job of deciphering their goals and motives as the levers and dials behind how their lives manifest. If people could stay more open to the possibilities that they wish to manifest in their lives, and then take at least some baby steps toward those directions, the universe is more likely to align with their objectives.
So often "clients" think that their real-life events with matching horoscopes will simply blindside them, such that the best they can do is request an astrological explanation or heads-up. We really don't tap the potential of a horoscope-- not only as a tool for self-awareness, but for making constructive improvements in our lives.
I'm not a fan of the Law of Attraction in its full-blown format, but I do think that people can do a better job of deciphering their goals and motives as the levers and dials behind how their lives manifest. If people could stay more open to the possibilities that they wish to manifest in their lives, and then take at least some baby steps toward those directions, the universe is more likely to align with their objectives.
So often "clients" think that their real-life events with matching horoscopes will simply blindside them, such that the best they can do is request an astrological explanation or heads-up. We really don't tap the potential of a horoscope-- not only as a tool for self-awareness, but for making constructive improvements in our lives.