Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
From any perspective
traditional astrology uses all available visible traditional rulers :smile:
Modernist astrology is entirely dependent on seven visible classical planets
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
Modernist astrology is unable to function without the use of seven visible classical planets
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The requirement for the Planets to be visible WITHOUT lenses is a "Traditional" theory not subscribed to by "Modern" astrologers. Clearly, there are Planets which ARE visible WITH the use of lenses, and are therefore legitimately used by those astrologers who don't subscribe to that particular theory.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
The requirement for the Planets to be visible WITHOUT lenses
is a "Traditional" theory not subscribed to by "Modern" astrologers.
.
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clearly modernist astrologers
are content to rely on software-generated charts
dependent on the opinions of the individual software writers
clearly
modernist astrologers do not view actual local skies
the vast majority of modernist astrologers cannot function
without computer generated software
in contrast
traditional astrologer are familiar with calculating natal charts
without the use of software programs :smile:
 
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david starling

Well-known member
lostinstars said:
Got your point and humans came from nature and aren't we violating natural laws and destroying it? :lol: Don't take this as a backlash but an analogy.

Edit: A thought came to my mind. If someone were to ask what right psychologists and psychoanalysts had to contribute so much to astrology, the obvious answer is they had no right but there were no authorities to stop anyone from doing anything to astrology.

And I have no clue on what role psychology and psychoanalysis play in modern medical astrology if at all there is something like that already.
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Saturn, as Time-Lord, oversees both creation and destruction. Unfortunately, at the end of this tropical, Saturn-ruled Age, Saturn is overseeing the sawing off of the branch we all sit upon. :pinched:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Clearly, there are Planets which ARE visible WITH the use of lenses,
and are therefore legitimately used by those astrologers
who don't subscribe to that particular theory.
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invisible outers are invisible due to their vast distance from SUN :smile:

visible planets Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn REFLECT sunlight
outers cannot reflect sunlight sufficient to render outers visible

modernist horary astrologers subscribe to the FACT that Moon reflects sunlight
and furthermore
modernist horary cannot function without the use of traditional methods
reliant on the reflection of sunlight
i.e.
TRANSLATION OF LIGHT et al

 
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david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
clearly modernist astrologers
are content to rely on software-generated charts
dependent on the opinions of the individual software writers
clearly
modernist astrologers do not view actual local skies
the vast majority of modernist astrologers cannot function
without computer generated software
in contrast
traditional astrologer are familiar with calculating natal charts
without the use of software programs :smile:
Click to expand...

They still rely on astronomers to supply the ephemeris in printed form. How many "Traditional" astrologers actually employ the techniques of the ancient astrologers to calculate the zodiacal placements by themselves?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Traditionalistic astrologers use modern-day technology like computers,
and depend on modern astronomy for planetary positions
(unless they're using an astrolabe and making their own calculations). :biggrin:
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Traditional astrologers, sufficiently proficient using maths
are therefore independent of so-called modern day computers :smile:
making their own observations of local skies
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
The ancient astrologers had disagreements among themselves.
Nobody has copyrights on astrology itself, so
anyone can use it and/or contribute to it
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modernist western astrology allows anyone to self-style as "an astrologer"
there are no qualifications necessary :smile:
contributions are also based on unknown meaning of the word "astrology"
which in the west is considered no more than fairground entertainment
for most people
modernist "astrology" in the west is "for fun" not taken seriously
 
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david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
yet another instance of modernist dependency on traditional method :smile:

i.e.

birth chart of George W Bush as an example
the program calculates dates for eminence given Valens aphorisms
for the zodiacal releasing of the lot of spirit.

Using Time Lords in Delphic Oracle 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUilP6YuTGk
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Cronus + Chronos = Saturn. This combination is within the time-frame of "Traditional" astrology. Chronos was the ancient Greek god of Time.
From now on, I'll use "Lord of Linear-time" in place of "Time-Lord", since that appellation has a different "Traditional" meaning from what was meant.
In this Saturn-ruled tropical Age of Capricorn, linear time-keeping has become accurate to less than a second, and is synchronized world-wide.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
There are those who don't believe the ancient Egyptians were capable of building the Great Pyramid!
The Alexandrian scientific community, around 100 B.C.E., had a model steam-engine that was used for teaching physics. However, putting it to work for propelling ships, or processing grain, went against the precepts of that Age.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Apparently, it didn't catch on. :biggrin:
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david starling said:
Not sure why you characterize it as Babylonian, when it's apparently Greek. :unsure:
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'......Cicero wrote of a bronze device
made by Archimedes in the third century B.C.
And James Evans, a historian of astronomy at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington
thinks that the eclipse cycle represented is Babylonian in origin
and begins in 205 B.C.
Maybe it was Hipparchus, an astronomer in Rhodes around that time
who worked out the math behind the device.
He is known for having blended the arithmetic-based predictions of Babylonians
with geometric theories favored by the Greeks....'


The Antithykera Mechanism
is by far the most advanced piece of ancient technology ever discovered
is older than we thought
and
not quite as Greek as we thought either. :smile:
Researchers think they have identified a particular solar eclipse
predicted by the device's complex cycle of astronomical calculations
which can find the location of the Sun and Moon, the phase of the Moon
and possibly the positions of the planets for any given day.
Christian Carman, a science historian at the National University of Quilmes in Argentina
and James Evans, a physicist at the University of Puget Sound in Washington
reached their conclusions by comparing the mechanism's eclipse predictions
found on the Saros dial
with records from Babylon.
That gave them the cosmological clockwork's start date
12 May 205BC
more than a century earlier than originally thought :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
I thought of Archimedes right away.
The Alexandrians had model steam-engines they used as teaching devices,
but as far as we know,
they weren't used to perform work,
such as milling lumber, grinding wheat, or propelling boats.
Plenty of inventive ability, not much practical application.
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Plenty of 21st Century "inventive ability that is not applied in practice"
for example
life cycle of hemp is far swifter than that of trees
hence more efficient to use hemp instead of trees for paper

however, returning to the topic
The evidence persuaded Drs Carman and Evans that
the ANTITHYKERA mechanism was designed according to Babylonian arithmetic principles
rather than Greek trigonometry, which had not been invented in 205BC.
But while the principle used was imported
it remains likely that the mechanism was built in Greece
the lettering on it is Greek
it has a dial that predicts when the Olympic Games will be held
and
bears an inscription mentioning an athletic event on Rhodes.

NEVERTHELESS

The markings on the face of the device
show both Babylonian and Egyptian dates translated into Greek. :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:
Possibly Greeks invented and built it using Babylonian records and locations.
Hipparchus used Babylonian records in his calculations regarding Precession of the Equinoxes.
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The new dating adds an additional twist to arguments
over which of the early Greek scientists, Hipparchus, Posidonius
or
according to the Roman scholar Cicero
Archimedes, might have been involved in its manufacture.
because
It is just seven years after Archimedes died
at the hands of a Roman soldier during the sacking of Syracuse
though whether this makes a direct link more or less likely
depends on whom you ask. :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:

It has all the hallmarks of the Alexandrian scientific community.
What are the chances it was backdated to use the Babylonian eclipse as a reference point?
So much of of their work was destroyed, and the early Church would have considered it the work of the Devil.
Not surprising if records of its manufacture were expunged.
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Although it is possible
that the device was configured
to start at a point in time earlier than its date of manufacture
that would make it less accurate :smile:

hence less useful
as tiny errors accumulate over time
And accuracy was clearly a primary concern of the maker
since the device gets its astronomy spot on.
Drs Carman and Evans research only became possible
after the discovery by Tony Freeth and his colleagues
that the dial on the lower back of the device corresponded to the Saros cycle of eclipses.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
david starling said:

That makes it sound like it would have been accurate only within a specific timeframe then
only really accurate for that particular cycle of eclipses.
If it were accurate enough, it could be backdated using known records
and still work for future predictions.
Has it been rebuilt and tested for longer-term accuracy?
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Not according to James Evans, professor of physics at University of Puget Sound
and Christián Carman, history of science professor at University of Quilmes, Argentina
bothof whom suggest that the Mechanism's workings point to Babylonian maths informing its construction.
That's not in the slightest remarkable:

even the doggrel version of history
knows there was contact between the two regions well before the 200 BC date
at which the Mechanism is thought to have been made.
By 200BC much of the Mediterranean and what we now call the Middle East
was ruled by Hellenic monarchs claiming connection to Alexander the Great's empire.
Those ancient nations shared a language and thought of themselves as fellow Greeks
or Macedonians
even when at war.
Cultural - exchange in the region was therefore normal :smile:
Antithykera Mechanism is now a little more mysterious
its origins may be even more complex than first imagined
 
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david starling

Well-known member
passiflora said:
It doesn't, but at some point conning enough people into believing something is true, is as good as (for those doing the conning anyway).
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This triggered the memory of the Leonard Cohen song, "Everybody Knows". Now I'm going to have to study his Chart. Just took a quick look--very interesting, to say the least.
Astrologers of ancient times were greatly respected. There was no competition from atheistic science, demanding the type of statistical verification as in today's world.
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
david starling said:
"Modern" astrology is the next phase AFTER "Traditional".
Today's astrologers are free to choose which phase in the long history of astrology to study and practice.
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That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
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