Is there another woman?

waybread

Well-known member
Thanks for the copy 'n' paste from Saint Paul, JA. We keep in touch via PM on another site periodically about astrological matters and this is one area where I part ways with him. The reason being that Barclay had and Hamaker-Zondag still has (so far as I know) extensive and successful consulting and teaching practices that spanned decades and thousands of chart-readings. Barclay is credited with the Lilly revival. KHZ cites an extensive bibliography, including Dutch sources that an anglophone probably couldn't read. Paul mentioned in your excerpt that he hadn't actually read her book! So far as I know, Paul is a gifted astrologer but he's been studying horary for only a few years.
 

alliewar

Well-known member
Moon makes no major applying aspects but a minor aspect to Sun and Saturn. Sun and Saturn both trine Lord 1 Jupiter which is in a Cadent house.
8th house is intercepted in Leo.


There is another women in the picture but he didn't actually have sex with her YET.
 

Harold

Well-known member
I think what these various posts reveal is a certain amount of disagreement if not confusion about how to read horary charts. Caveat emptor. I've been going by Olivia Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered, who was a major student of Lilly, and the astrologer who did most to revitalize him.

Ha! I actually studied with Olivia....! It is easy to dismiss her because so much more is published now from Arabic, Greek, Indian and Persian writers. But does that mean that Olivia was not able do horary because this stuff was not available to her? Knowing Olivia as I did, I can tell you that is certainly NOT the case!

She believed in situations when the chart should not or could not be judged ("cautions and strictures", p. 124) but said if the ruler of the 7th is retrograde, "the astrologer's judgment will not please anyone."

Yes, but she is careful to qualify these 7th house cautions by stating that they do not apply in questions which involve the 7th house.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thanks for the copy 'n' paste from Saint Paul, JA.
That's ok :smile:
Paul mentioned in your excerpt that he hadn't actually read her book!
Notice that Paul added an EDIT
- same excerpt -
that says:

EDIT
I quickly checked
Karen Hamaker-Zondag's understanding of reception and whatever it is it doesn't follow the tradition and either sources someone who got confused from Lilly or she herself does.

In any event I don't think
Karen Hamaker-Zondag's book should be taken as an authority on Horary and its wider tradition
BobZemco advises
If you're going to learn, you should start at the beginning.

You need to see if the chart is radical. For that, you'll need Hour Tables or something to calculate the Hour Ruler for you.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]*Once you find the chart is radical, you need to look for warnings.



Some people call those considerations or strictures.



These do not prevent the chart from being judged, they're simply warnings that it might be difficult to reach a proper judgment.



Ascendant in early or late degrees.

Some people say the first and last 3° but there's really no support for that.

Early degrees would be the first 5° to 7° and late degrees would be the last 7° to 5°.

An early Ascendant shows things haven't developed yet so it's too early, and a late Ascendant shows the situation is out of the Querent's control (and the Querent knows that but they asked out of sheer desperation).

Ascendant Via Combusta, which would be anywhere from 15° Libra to 15° Scorpio (except for 23° Libra which is the Fixed Star Spica).

Next we look for Saturn in the 1st or 7th House.

Saturn in the 7th House and not ruling the 1st or 7th House is a warning to the Astrologer that they don't know enough about the subject matter for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know, maybe they don't understand, or maybe the Querent hasn't been forthcoming with details.

Saturn in the 1st House and not the ruler of the 1st or 7th House will results in long delays and most likely totally destroy the matter so that it is never perfected.

The last consideration is Moon Via Combusta or Moon Void of Course.

A Void of Course Moon has nothing to do with a chart being radical or not.

If the chart is radical, then yes it can be read even if the Moon is Void of Course

Lily says that when the Moon is Void of Course, and in the Signs of Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius and Pisces, the Moon can perform under certain conditions, and there will still be delays and problems.

In the one or two examples that Lily gives where a Void of Course Moon performs, the Moon is in Rulership or Exaltation, or it is in the Signs of Jupiter, and the Significators are in almost perfect condition, and all aspects are Mutual Reception or very strong Reception.
 

butterflygirl

Well-known member
Thank you everyone for your comments and input. I do appreciate it.

Alliewar, that's a new angle. So in addition to the friends with benefit girl who I suspect he has a liason with there is another girl?

I have to say, I am not very surprised. He has quite a reputation as a ladies man. Our friendship goes back about 10 years. He's always pursued me and I always resisted because of his status as a ladies man. We lost touch for a few years and reconnected recently. We're both older and I had hoped a little wiser so I'm open to seeing what develops but I'm not comfortable with lies and deceitful behavior. I suppose what bothers me the most is not necessarily that there are other woman but that he's insistent that I be monogamous to him. He's a scorpio sun conjunct uranus with Leo ASC conj Mars. He has Pluto conjunct Venus in Libra. So you can imagine the type of magnetic, forceful personality he has. The truth is I'd still date him if he were dating other girls, I'd just like the opportunity to do the same. I have Venus conjunct ASC in Aquarius so you can see where part of his attraction to me stems from and why I truly don't care if he's dating other people.

Anywho, thank you to everyone who's commented. I do appreciate it.
 
butterflygirl:

ClintonSoule, thank you for the links. I think I caught most of your references however the Apollo reference was lost on me. Could you elaborate or add a few links please?

https://www.google.com/#q=lilly+christian+astrology+ebooks+online'

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

.Lilly, WilliamChristian Astrology, vols I & II
1647
word.gif
Mithras93

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY Vol. I, page 69,

CHAP. XI.


Of the SUN, his generall and particular significations.



[SOL.] The Sun is placed in the middle of all Planets, and is called amongst the Ancients, both Poets and Historians, Sol, Titan, Ilioa, Phebus, Apollo, Pean, Osyris, Diespiter: It’s needlesse to mention his Colour, being so continuallly visible to all mortal men: He passeth through all the twelve Signs of the Zodiack in one yeer, or 365 dayes and certain hours:

Lilly read hundreds of horary scholars to arrive at his methodology, if we want to get horary right, we need to read all he in fact did study from even if he missed some things!:rightful:

Lilly would have wanted us to outdo him, he talked frequently about all the slackers in his time!:bandit:

And when you finally study Lilly and the Ancients you'll understand you truly just started to really study horary!:rightful:

Tsmall pointed out great truth::D:cool::ninja::ninja::ninja::ninja:

Quote:
Originally Posted by butterflygirl
T
Interestingly, I cast a chart asking specifically if he was in a sexual relationship on Oct.17, before Mercury Rx and got Capricorn DESC so I figured the outcome couldn't be determined so I didn't post it. I'm thinking of adding it here but Im not sure if it will be helpful or further muddy the water.

You already cast a chart about the same question less than three weeks ago?

Out of curiosity, why would you discard a chart because Capricorn is on the descendant? That's a new one...

There are those who have stated that queries can be asked again if the angles or rather certain factors in a horary warrant that it be be done, I think Bob Zemco alluded to this but I haven't seen any documentation from an Ancient or prior to Lilly yet!

Where are those devoted Academicly Honest horary scholars whom are dying to tell us the how and why of it?

Otherwise to ask again, and again, and sideways and backwards, again and again aren't we just being BIG..

baby-crying-922ed733da3a46716bb98063c152bf4a.jpeg

Yes aren't we if we can't get our own way?:sad:

Where is the ruling from the Ancients?

Bonatti?

Lilly?

Any of them that say we can ask again and again?:rightful:
.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
A third party alerted Paul that people were discussing his post quoted above by Jupiter Ascendant in the context of this thread. As an ex member, he was able to read the thread but cannot rejoin AC to reply on his own behalf. He PMed me on another astrology forum, and asked me to post the following:

Quote: "I find it really hard to understand why this topic has become so confused and now we have some opinion floating around cyber space that I think we shoudl ignore Barclay or some implication she was not a good astrologer. When this could not be further from the truth. I cite Barclay myself from time to time. My only point was that we understand a bit more context than she had available in her own time and shouldn't confuse her preferences about what she chooses to judge or not judge as some indication that we CANNOT judge."

He also agreed with my recommendation that, since he is a member of the Skyscript and Astrodienst forums, if people want to know his opinion about an astrological matter they can contact him on these forums.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
A third party alerted Paul that people were discussing his post quoted above by Jupiter Ascendant in the context of this thread. As an ex member, he was able to read the thread but cannot rejoin AC to reply on his own behalf. He PMed me on another astrology forum, and asked me to post the following:

Quote: "I find it really hard to understand why this topic has become so confused and now we have some opinion floating around cyber space that I think we shoudl ignore Barclay or some implication she was not a good astrologer. When this could not be further from the truth. I cite Barclay myself from time to time. My only point was that we understand a bit more context than she had available in her own time and shouldn't confuse her preferences about what she chooses to judge or not judge as some indication that we CANNOT judge."

He also agreed with my recommendation that, since he is a member of the Skyscript and Astrodienst forums, if people want to know his opinion about an astrological matter they can contact him on these forums.
So Paul has confirmed that he cites Barclay from time to time but that we should not confuse her preferences about what she chooses to judge or not judge as some indication that we CANNOT judge

Paul, Moderator of Skyscript Horary Forum, posted opinions on astrological matters on this forum VERY RECENTLY including the following comment which was posted on this forum exactly a month ago - on 8 OCTOBER 2013 AT 09:14 AM and SPECIFICALLY addresses the works of Olivia Barclay and Karen
Hamaker-Zondag :smile:
I am not sure how you are determining who has more client feedback Waybread nor even why that is relevant to this discussion. Olivia Barclay has passed away and will not be participating in this forum, it is unlikely that KHZ will either. With that in mind if you want to post by authority, then obviously you should not be surprised that others will similarly post by authority - there's no point rebuking the others for doing so when you introduced it into the discussion and continue to argue by authority.

For what it's worth, we might have reason to raise questions marks over those books - clearly they get many traditional techniques wrong or confused. We must therefore put their 'authority' into context of the times they were writing in. We know a heck of a lot more about the greater tradition of astrology that both of these authors are directly or indirectly sourcing or referencing and therefore can see more clearly where they err and make mistakes.

That isn't to say we can't recognise those authors' advice, we can. But with that done, we can also hear from other opinions. Keep in mind you are the first to introduce the idea of an argument by authority or to offer advice from 'experts'. We can hardly be surprised when others follow your lead, and it's not useful to then rebuke others for doing what you yourself did or then accuse them of hijacking a thread if they dare to disagree with the views of the authors you cited.

By selectively highlighting only the parts of those authors where they advise to not read the charts, as you have understood it, and by arguing from authority using their names (repeatedly) there is an implication that could be mistaken from your posts, if someone were not more aware of horary generally, that those points are commonly attested or that they're a prevailing view today. They are not. And it is worth highlighting that for fastlane's sake.

If you are not interested in pitting Expert A against Expert B, it probably was unwise to start plugging what Expert A said in the hope nobody would plug what Expert B said
.
The following comment was also posted only a month ago
Who said that? Waybread has suggested that the chart is not valid using the authors she has cited. Others have disagreed..
Paul, a member until just last month, so Paul's opinion is far from 'ancient history' posted another comment re Barclay
However, I think what people were trying to show here is that attempts to use these considerations before judgement to invalidate the chart or suggest it cannot be read is probably not appropriate.

And, just so we're clear on this point, it was you who brought that issue up - it is less about asking for the 'undisputed list' to stand up, and more about saying could those we know are not part of the greater tradition please sit back down.

I'm really curious about your use of Barclay and KHZ though - I wonder if there's more than one version of Barclay's book or if someone has made revisions of it. The one I had didn't even mention single sided reception as far as I can remember, and I thought she had mentioned that any chart could be read - but perhaps that was just for the void of course moon and not the ascendant degrees.
Soon after posting the following comment Paul requested to have his account closed and the moderators/site administrators obliged
However I'm willing to respect your wish to follow your own conscience. I cannot help but think that you are only willing to respect my wishes provided I follow yours. And that's something I cannot do.

Right, and I'm willing to have a debate in our astrological society - which is what we're doing. WHat I'm not willing to do is say "okay waybread must be right, I'll shut up and not counter her argument".
 

waybread

Well-known member
JA, while I suspect that Paul stands by his posts, I recommend that you contact him directly, as there was some misunderstanding about the one you cited previously. In the meantime, this is butterflygirl's thread about her particular horary question.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
JA, while I suspect that Paul stands by his posts, I recommend that you contact him directly, as there was some misunderstanding about the one you cited previously. In the meantime, this is butterflygirl's thread about her particular horary question.
Paul has closed his account with this forum of his own free will – the result is Paul can no longer post comments – however, Paul has posted many comments as recently as just four weeks ago which clearly state his view on this subject :smile:


The fact that someone is no longer a member of this forum does not preclude their posts from being quoted – and Paul's comments, quoted in response to comments made earlier on this thread are germane to this matter.
 
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If I understand the underground tone Saint Paul in relationship to this thread is none other than the beloved Paul, a moderator on skyscript.co.uk forums?????

Astro siblings even if I because of my 9H values distain Anton Levay and Sybil Leek because of their tails to the DARK SIDE can we admit theyt were astrologers and TRY TO BE NICE!:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

talesfromdarkside.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnE3-0X-174
.
 
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M

may28gemini

I'm wondering, if you have no problems of him banging/dating/etc. with others, then why ask if there's other women when you know of his reputation as a ladies' man/cheater?
 
M

may28gemini

Ok, but I thought you and him already established something "casual" so doesn't that mean there's no commitments/expectations?
 
JupiterAsc:

Paul has closed his account with this forum of his own free will – the result is Paul can no longer post comments – however, Paul has posted many comments as recently as just four weeks ago which clearly state his view on this subject :smile:

Would this be the same Paul whom was or is a Moderator on Skyscript.co.uk ?:unsure:

Or someone else?:unsure:
 
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