Astrology and Freewill

Here are one or two other things to consider.

There is what the case studis of twins separated at birth shows - the extraordinary coincidences that seem to characterise their lives, despite their not knowing eachother: having identical tastesin cigarette brands, jelewelery, clothing: marrying spouses with he same name on the same date, having children with the same nameson the same dates and so forth.

John West has plates which show a picture of a pair of identical twins. But they were not biological twins, just time twins. He also includes many case studies of time twins whose lives also show similar parallel coincidences, like those of the examples given above.

It might be interesting for individuals here if they could find time twins and compare lives. I only met someone sharing my birthday in the dsame year once, when I was doing a psychic fair once. It was diffcicult, however, to see that many parallels and whilst he seemed to be a morning birth like me too, his Ascendant must have been different. And he was a man and mostl lilely, there is a diference in the way some key planets are expressed.

He was not expecially communicative,, so it had I had the cahnce to get to know him, more similarities might have emerged.

Anyone with any stories to tell of any time twins they have et, or of stories of time twins thexy have known personally, to share?

Nexus7 said:

Here are one or two other things to consider.

There is what the case studis of twins separated at birth shows - the extraordinary coincidences that seem to characterise their lives, despite their not knowing eachother: having identical tastesin cigarette brands, jelewelery, clothing: marrying spouses with he same name on the same date, having children with the same nameson the same dates and so forth.

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Here you are talking about what we usually call "identical twins". In this case, I think the similarities can be as easily explained by genetics as by astrology.

Similarties in "time twins", what I know of as "fraternal twins", seesm to me to be a much stronger suggestion of astrology.

For about a year and a half I taught twin girls, "time twins". There were similarities, of course (same family, obvious genetic connections), but we all know how completely different two sisters born even one year apart can be.

These two girls SEEMED to me to be rather different to me, at first, but the more I worked with them, the more obvious it becamse to me that they WERE very similar. First of all, although one appeared to be more advanced than the other, better at music, over time they were almost dead even in progress. They also shared many basic temperamental traits.

However, they were different enough that I would have a hard time trying to explain all the differences through the chance that they were born at different times. (I was never able to find out what the interval was between their births. It may have been mintues, or it could have been much longer. One was very stoic, quiet but cooperative and never complained. The other cried (total perfectionist) and was very moody. I had the mother in the room and constantly asked if I was doing anything wrong. The mother said absolutely not, that it was just her temperament, and that she was working on it!

Gaer

There r things I have wanted to write on this thread but I never know at what time what I want to write.

I get tired of feeling bogged down by astrology and God. So today I threw them both out the window and did what I wanted to.

We shall see how this turns out.

KayBug

You are correct, I am indeed confused. For me, Catholic=Religion; Christian=Faith; "Church"=both and the concept of free-will is different for Religions and Faiths.

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Well, stop thinking about it in differing connotations. I was speaking of the Catholic church and their official stance as they attempted to reconcile astrology with freewill, this battle occured between the 1400s-1500s, and eventually it took several people and their clever creativity to find a way to reconcile the two disciplines. That was the only point I was trying to make with it, and it seems everyone has enjoyed making it an obstacle to conversation.

So, are you asking for views on how "modern" astrology is reconciled with the Christian/New Testament concept of freewill?

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I'm asking how people personally reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewil. It doesn't have to necessarily be the Christian idea of freewill, even though I'm not sure how it would change from religion to religion as freewill is freewill.

Gaer, your whole post made 0 sense to me. Sure, it can be argued many things, but I think you're trying to attack the Christian concept of freewill by coming up with several scenarios. At this point I don't care what can or cannot be argued, Christian doctorine teaches we have the freewill to do whatever we want with our lives, human life is not bound up by predeterminism. Astrology on the other hand dictates that everything is set by the stars. You can attack that or disagree with that all you want to and that's perfectly fine, but it is not the point of this thread to agree or disagree with the notion of freewill and create seemingly fated scenarios that argue for predeterminism. The point is just finding out everyone's views of freewill and how it is compatible or not compatible with astrology. I'm not sure what the infalliability of astrology has to do with anything, just because an astrologer fails to interpret it doesn't mean a chart doesn't say it and it doesn't mean it won't happen. It just means that nobody saw it coming. (in this paragraph when I said "Christian" I meant Catholic...oh, you know)

Gaer

Here are some questions that I do not intend in any with any spirit of sarcasm, but rather to look at this question as closely as we can without falling into either James Randi or Dawkins-style debunking or the conversion zeal of astrological fundies:

Has genetics been able to pinpoint tastes in cigarette brands and cardigan styles yet, then? Or in a tendency to marry spouses with the same name, or to christen heir children or their pets with the same name?

What does the law of probability say about coincidences such as these?

These biological-twin stories actually found their way into an English textbook of mine incidentally rather than either scientific or astrological journals, but for anyone interested, they focussed on the case of the so-called 'Jim twins' if that rings any bells, and a study purportedly carried out by one Prfessor Jim Bouchard a he Universiy of Minnesota.

I think folk wisdom has certainly known about time twins for some time, Thrasyllus purportedly saved himself execution by Teberius by telling the later that thery were time twins and that if, he, Thrasyllus were to die, then the emperor's own death would be sure to follow only too soon. Edgar Allne Poe wrote about a pair of time twins in William Wilson, where one becomes the dark Doppelganger of the other.

As for wins, I have certainly known identical twins and and frateranl wins, bt not ones separated at birth. Stephen Arroyo calims to have known adult twins who were at different levels spiritually, though judgements like these leave me a little queasy. Who is to say that chanting mantras is more evolved than listening to rock bands? The former could just be a fashion victim bending to what she thinks is more evolved spiritually, whilst the other could be displaying more genuine autonomy through her own brand of artistic honesty.

Finally, can anyone remember the story of the French King in Liz Greene's treatise on the topic of fate, the one where Nostodamus and Gauricus, both skilled astrologers of he day, each predicted the said King's death to the day and under the same ciscumstances.

Greene reckons that most people now havw more free will than do those living in Medival imes, thanks to the benefits held out in the Hermetic - or Gnostic promise - that redemption form the compulsive pull of he 7 planets can be found through introspection and therapy.

However, I would doubt that any modern king or oresident would fare any better than those born in Nostradamus's time - I should think that figureheads, due to timetables and obligations decided by their office might make them a whole lot more fated than your averga Joe Bloggs. Would President Kenndy, for example, have felt 'free' to develop political flu at the last minute on the strength of what an asrologer told him, even if he had been able to admit to employing an asrologer in the first place?

This thread just remind of me of something interesting that I read a while back.....although, it has more to do with Chinese astrology. In Chinese astrology, it says that 40% of life depends on what stars and planets are in your birthchart (actually, quite similar to western birth charts), another 40% depends on the current year, then the last 20% depends on you (aka free will). Don't underestimate this 20%, because it could be a very poweful force.

KayBug said:

There r things I have wanted to write on this thread but I never know at what time what I want to write.

I get tired of feeling bogged down by astrology and God. So today I threw them both out the window and did what I wanted to.

We shall see how this turns out.

KayBug

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I can totally relate to this Kaybug!

In the book The Fated Sky, the author recounts several tales of astrologers accurately predicting death and whatnot. The problem with these recorded predictions though, obviously, is whether they are true or not. Stories blown out of porportion or just downright lies.

One story relates to an emperor asking an astrologer how he (the astrologer) was going to die. The astrologer confidently explained that he already knew he was to be torn apart by dogs and accepted it as his fate. In an attempt to fight against fate, the emperor had the astrologer arrested, executed, and burned to ruin his supposed fate. However, the winds carried the smell of the burning meat into the direction of the forest, and a pack of wild dogs reportedly came from the forest and ripped the burning corpse to shreds.

Certainly the dogs did not kill him, but the astrologer did correctly describe his ending by their teeth. Fate or fable?

Girolama Cardano, a famous medical astrologer of the time, was called upon to cure the illness of Archbishop John Hamilton. After discovering the disease was a form of asthma and cured it, he was asked to look into Hamilton's future, to this he replied: "I have been able to cure your sickness, but I cannot change your destiny - nor prevent you from being hanged." History tells us that Hamilton was hung eighteen years later for treason outside of the palace gates of Queen Regent. Again, fate or fable?

Regarding skepticism and whatnot, Ptolemy shares this thought with us. "It has been supposed that even such events as have been truly predicted have taken place by chance only, and not from any operative cause in nature. But it should be remembered that these mistakes arise, not from any deficiency or want of power in the science itself, but from the incompetency of unqualified person who pretend to exercise it...The reproach...thus brought upon the science is wholly unmerited; for it would be equally just to condemn all other branches of philosophy because each numbers among its professors some mischievous pretenders."

Ok, Now.....I am finally going to try to post to this thread. Most of you know me so please be kind with your answers.
I am 58 years old. I have been a christian all my life. I have always believed in God, Jesus dying for my sins and trying to live the life I should be living which I made quite a mess of. But anyway,
My Father was an abusive alcholic and my Mother was into her own problems. Both were crazy in my book.
When I was 8 yrs old, I use to pray to God, to take my Father or to take me or if nothing else to change things. I prayed this every night, night after night. Well, guess what? Nothing changed. Mind u I was 8 yrs old.
I now think, well why would he change my life when all these other young chilren r raped, murdered, etc.
Then when I got to be 25 my Father died. Bit to late to help me. My MOther finally acted like a real person and got lung cancer. I sat at the foot of her hospital bed and prayed for him not to take her becuase I needed her so much.
Well that prayer wasn't answered so I figured a few yrs later that he did me a favor by getting them out of my life so I could have a life.
And the bible says "anything u ask in my name I will give u".....ummmm huh thats a lie.
I am not bitter about all this stuff mind u, I have gotten to the point its all lies and life sucks.
I don't know what my chart says about my life, actually I wonder if it would even matter.
I don't believe in anything anymore except for one thing. My Father told me, "If anyone said life was going to be easy, they lied".
I'm totally upset that my belief system exists no longer as we all need to believe in something.
KayBug

KayBug,
The Cosmos gives us what we need rather than what we want.

Nexus7,
My mother was born one minute after her twin sister - and they were raised together. Physically, they bore no resemblence at all.

My mother married a boy/man she knew from the age of 4; had 8 children (all of whom are still alive); and died at the age of 73 (despite being in perfect health until my father's death 18 months earlier). They were financially poor throughout their lives, but always happy and excited about life.

Her sister married a wealthy man from outside her own social circle; had 1 child (who died at 40) and is still alive at 87 (having buried her husband some 30 years ago). She too has always been happy and excited about life - but that's about the only thing she and my mother had in common.

Kai,
The Catholic Church has moved on from the 1400s-1500s - with many of it's flock now describing themselves as "Jungian Catholics". Perhaps, traditional astrology needs to move out of the Middle Ages too.

Now that you're defining your question as "how (do) people reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewill" - My answer is that I do not see astrology as fatalistic, so have no need to reconcile it with the concept of freewill.

Isn't the current definition of your question now the same as asking how modern astrologists reconcile their concept of freewill with the traditional view that astrology is fated. Since this is a very different question to that first asked, maybe my confusion has indeed served a useful purpose after all.

Gaer - DreamOfDawn - Shining Ray

I agree with what the three of you say - and particularly like the Chinese Astrology view.

If the cosmos gives us what we need children would not be starving to death or does there chart say they will starve and die.

Better they not know it.

KayBug

Kai,
The Catholic Church has moved on from the 1400s-1500s - with many of it's flock now describing themselves as "Jungian Catholics". Perhaps, traditional astrology needs to move out of the Middle Ages too.

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No doubt the Catholic chuch has moved on, now they don't like astrology period. Is that better for you? Such a great change, right? You're totally missing the point...

Now that you're defining your question as "how (do) people reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewill" - My answer is that I do not see astrology as fatalistic, so have no need to reconcile it with the concept of freewill.

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Explain that. That's the whole point of the thread.

Isn't the current definition of your question now the same as asking how modern astrologists reconcile their concept of freewill with the traditional view that astrology is fated. Since this is a very different question that first asked, maybe my confusion has indeed served a useful purpose after all.

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The question has been the same since the thread's creation, it's never changed. The only reason I used the Catholic Church as an example (I believe I've said this about five times now) is that it was an organization attempting to reconcile the two opposing viewpoints into one. It doesn't have to be a modern vs traditional thing, but thanks for opening back up that rift. Can there not be modern astrologers that see things as fated? Oh, well, I guess that runs contrary to the definition. Is it contradictory for traditional astrologers to accept the idea of freewill? So much for that stereotype. Your confusion has only served to knock this thread off its intended discussion...

KayBug said:

If the cosmos gives us what we need children would not be starving to death or does there chart say they will starve and die.

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I really liked this idea.

Bit off thread, sorry, but I really want to say this to Kaybug,

All you need to ask of yourself and God is to be happy. Dont worry about the particulars. Thats where I think you have got it wrong. You could find happiness in any situation, without being specific, if you ask. Tell yourself each morning that you are happy. Its like the timestables, you say them enough, your subconscious mind remembers them. You need to retrain your mind, to allow yourself to be happy. If you make your happiness conditional on things outside yourself occuring then you are bound to be upset with what happens to you. Is it possible that your father each day prayed to be alive? Do you get where I am at? Without changing the fate of anyone else, you can be happy. Really. All you have to do is tell yourself you are.
I know of a really good book that could help you. Its called MIND POWER IN THE 21ST CENTURY by John Kehoe. He helps you to work out the things you are saying to yourself that are actually the things that are making you unhappy.And how to change them. Take a look if you get the chance.

Much luck to you

Also, tell yourself that you are already happy. Dont ask to be happy in the future. Tell yourself you already are and you soon will be.

Why would people see death as something so bad, dramatic? Isn't it part of life to die? Dieing is just a death of the physical body not the death of a soul... Once a person dies they still go back into the circle of life and be reborn somewhere a better person in a better life... And their soul prolly chose this life because they wanted the knowledge... the experience.... You never know but your soul might have gone through the same experience before? You forgotten...
Nothing in life is without a purpose.... all things have their purpose in our lives....

Sivitri said:

Why would people see death as something so bad, dramatic? Isn't it part of life to die? Dieing is just a death of the physical body not the death of a soul... Once a person dies they still go back into the circle of life and be reborn somewhere a better person in a better life... And their soul prolly chose this life because they wanted the knowledge... the experience.... You never know but your soul might have gone through the same experience before? You forgotten...
Nothing in life is without a purpose.... all things have their purpose in our lives....

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and

Looking to Jupiter said:

Also, tell yourself that you are already happy. Dont ask to be happy in the future. Tell yourself you already are and you soon will be

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I really liked these ideas.

Kai,
Actually, I don't care if the Catholic Church like astrology or not - why would I (or indeed anyone who thinks for themself)?

I have already explained why I do not see astrology as fatalistic and why I do see it as encouraging freewill. Why would I try to reconcile something that I believe does not exist with something that I believe does?

I've never come across a modern astrologer who did not believe in its inherent assumption that we can influence our destiny. Can you point to any traditional astrologers who accept the idea of freewill?

Is it my confusion or your question that re-opens the rift you refer to?

OK, time for me to go - to allow this thread/discussion to proceed in the direction you intended. It's been stimulating (and enjoyable) - many thanks for that.

EJ

http://www.hasanyonetoldyou.com:80/

We can all chose to bring a positive brighter thought into the world. I think maybe we underestmate the vastly different world we would live if we all chose to think of a brighter tomorrow instead of one that is daunting.

Maybe freewill is as simple as that single choice.

love light flea

EJ53 said:

Kai,

I've never come across a modern astrologer who did not believe in its inherent assumption that we can influence our destiny. Can you point to any traditional astrologers who accept the idea of freewill?

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I've spent quite a bit of time reading through various threads on the Skyscript site, which for obvious reasons is at least centered around what people there would most definitely call traditional astrology.

My impression is that the people there differ hugely in philosophy. You are assuming that most if not all people who use "modern astrology" believe in free will—and believe that astrology does not in any way preclude free will. For the most part, I would agree with that.

However, I believe you are also assuming an automatic link between traditional astrology (including traditoinal astrology as it is being used today) and fatalism.

It's not that simple. I think that believing that ANY kind of astrology precludes freewill takes a leap of faith, namely believing that the heavens don't merely have a huge effect on mortal affairs but completely control them.

Gaer

gaer said:

I believe you are also assuming an automatic link between traditional astrology (including traditoinal astrology as it is being used today) and fatalism.

It's not that simple. I think that believing that ANY kind of astrology precludes freewill takes a leap of faith, namely believing that the heavens don't merely have a huge effect on mortal affairs but completely control them.

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Thanks for this Gaer - I was making that assumption and it helps to know it is invalid/I need to think on it again.

My "understanding" of traditional astrology is (at best) scant, as I had never given it any consideration before joining this Forum in Feb 2008 - so, my "understanding" is confined to what has been said in this and a couple of other threads I've been following.

Regrettably though, my comments arising from that limited knowledge appear to have unintentionally diverted this thread/discussion away from that intended rather than served as a stimulus to learn. However, I am hopeful that I can still learn something here as an observer.

EJ

Excellent suggestion Caprising!

god said to eve that if she ate the apple then she would die that very day!


She did die that day. She died inside and all the total goodness was gone. She then had the knowledge of evil. She felt shame of her naked body. The death was not a phsycial one of the body. The body just being the shell/carrier for the soul here on earth.