Adding Ophiuchus to your Chart

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Went through all the forum but couldn't make out where to place this, so the mods will have to decide.

I read somewhere how the degrees went if you have 13 signs, i remember you came above the 360. I can't seem to find it, does anyone know from what degree to what degree Ophiuchus is placed that way I can add it to my program so I get a 13 sign horoscope, i'd like to see what happens.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
Went through all the forum but couldn't make out where to place this, so the mods will have to decide.

I read somewhere how the degrees went if you have 13 signs, i remember you came above the 360. I can't seem to find it, does anyone know from what degree to what degree Ophiuchus is placed that way I can add it to my program so I get a 13 sign horoscope, i'd like to see what happens.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22731&highlight=Ophiuchus


  1. ARIES = APRIL 19 - MAY 13
  2. TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19
  3. GEMINI = JUNE 20 - JULY 20
  4. CANCER = JULY 21 - AUG 9
  5. LEO = AUGUST 10 - SEPTEMBER 15
  6. VIRGO = SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 30
  7. LIBRA = OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 22
  8. SCORPIO = NOVEMBER 23 - NOVEMBER 29
  9. OPHIUCHUS = NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 17
  10. SAGITTARIUS = DECEMBER 18 - JANUARY 18
  11. CAPRICORN = JANUARY 19 - FEBRUARY 15
  12. AQUARIUS = FEBRUARY 16 - MARCH 11
  13. PISCES = MARCH 12 - APRIL 18
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22731&highlight=Ophiuchus


  1. ARIES = APRIL 19 - MAY 13
  2. TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19
  3. GEMINI = JUNE 20 - JULY 20
  4. CANCER = JULY 21 - AUG 9
  5. LEO = AUGUST 10 - SEPTEMBER 15
  6. VIRGO = SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 30
  7. LIBRA = OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 22
  8. SCORPIO = NOVEMBER 23 - NOVEMBER 29
  9. OPHIUCHUS = NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 17
  10. SAGITTARIUS = DECEMBER 18 - JANUARY 18
  11. CAPRICORN = JANUARY 19 - FEBRUARY 15
  12. AQUARIUS = FEBRUARY 16 - MARCH 11
  13. PISCES = MARCH 12 - APRIL 18

dhundhun. thankyou for taking the time. Perhaps I was not clear enough, what I meant was Aries 0 to 29, Taurus 30 to 40 and the like. I am looking for the dergrees covered in the Zodiac, Ophiuchus being the ninth sign I wonder what its placement is, I can't well devide 360 by 13. But agian, thankyou, certainly the thought that counts, and the effort.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
dhundhun. thankyou for taking the time. Perhaps I was not clear enough, what I meant was Aries 0 to 29, Taurus 30 to 40 and the like. I am looking for the dergrees covered in the Zodiac, Ophiuchus being the ninth sign I wonder what its placement is, I can't well devide 360 by 13. But agian, thankyou, certainly the thought that counts, and the effort.

I never came across degree wise. Do manual calculation to start with such as:

13 signs Aries start on Apr 19 ~= 29 Aries = 29 degree of Tropical Zodiac
13 signs Taurus start on May 14 ~= 23 Taurus = 53 degree
Gemini June 20 ~= Gem 29 = 89 degree
Cancer Jul 21 ~= Can 29 = 119 degree
Leo Aug 10 ~= Leo 18 = 138 degree
Virgo Sep 16 ~= Vir 23 = 173 degree
Libra Oct 31 ~= Sco 8 = 218
Sco Nov 23 ~= Sag 1 = 241
Ophiuchus range is Sag 8 to Sag 25 = 248 to 265 degrees of tropical Zodic
Sagi Dec 18 ~= Sagi 26 = 266
Cap Jan 19 ~= Cap 29 = 299
Aqu Feb 16 ~= Aqu 27 = 327
Pis Mar 12 ~= Pis 21 = 351

This can give roughly some understanding of applying 13 signs.
 
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dhundhun

Well-known member
And Aries won't be 30 degrees. All signs are of different sizes. Aries would be of 24 degrees.

Smallest Scorpio = 7 degrees
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
In adding Ophiuchus one is, in point of fact, converting from signs (directions of space) to constellations: in so doing the precision of 30 degree divisions of the directions of space is lost, and one moves from considerations of the quality of space (the 12 directions of space, ie, the signs) to considerations of the quality of things in space (ie, starry constellations) I greatly value stars and starry constellations (all 48 starry constellations) But I consider stars and constellations a different matter than the signs (directions and qualities) of the pleroma of space (both Manilius in the 1st century and Ptolemy in the early 2nd century each stated specifically that the signs of the zodiac are different than the starry constellations having the same names)

The 12 starry constellations of tradition are accepted as fundamental backgrounds in non-tropical astrological systems: these 12 constellations are chosen because they are on the ecliptic (the golden path of the Sun); Ophiuchus has been added over the past few decades because this constellation, too is on the Ecliptic. However, the Ecliptic fact of the matter is (based on research by the International Astronomers Union) that there are not just 12 or 13 Ecliptic constellations, but actually there are 22 (traditional, Ptolemaic) constellations on the Ecliptic, the sun and planets connecting with 19 of them; according to the above (non-astrological) organization, computer simulation of the movements of the sun and all the planets-from the geocentric perspective-covering a period of 20,000 years, demonstrate that the sun and all of the planets actually pass in front of one or more (usually in front of nearly all) of the following 19 ancient Ecliptic starry constellations, during the course of their orbits:

Aries-Taurus-Gemini-Cancer-Leo-Virgo-Libra-Scorpio-Sagittarius-Capricorn-Aquarius-Pisces

...and...

Cetus (the Whale)

Corvus (the Crow)

Crater (the Cup)

Hydra (the Snake-aka the Water Snake)

Ophiuchus (the Snake-Bearer)

Orion (the Giant)

Pegasus (the Winged Horse)
 
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Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
In adding Ophiuchus one is, in point of fact, converting from signs (directions of space) to constellations: in so doing the precision of 30 degree divisions of the directions of space is lost, and one moves from considerations of the quality of space (the 12 directions of space, ie, the signs) to considerations of the qulity of things in space (ie, starry constellations) I greatly value stars and starry constellations (all 48 starry constellations) But I consider stars and constellations a different matter than the signs (directions and qualities) of the pleroma of space.

The 12 starry constellations of tradition are accepted as fundamental backgrounds in non-tropical astrological systems: these 12 constellations are chosen because they are on the ecliptic (the golden path of the Sun); Ophiuchus has been added over the past few decades because this constellation, too is on the Ecliptic. However, the Ecliptic fact of the matter is (based on research by the International Astronomers Union) that there are not just 12 or 13 Ecliptic constellations, but actually there are 20 (traditional, Ptolemaic) constellations on the Ecliptic, and, according to the above (non-astrological) organization, computer simulation of the movements of the sun and all the planets-from the geocentric perspective-covering a period of 20,000 years, demonstrate that the sun and all of the planets pass in front of each and every one of the 20 ancient Ecliptic constellations, during the course of their orbits.
There are still countries that use 13 signs, Japan as far as I know.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
There are still countries that use 13 signs, Japan as far as I know.

12 Signs are over simplification. Like equal house or whole sign.

For example, Vedic astrology from 12 Signs, advanced into 27 Astrims / Nakashtras. Dasa system and several other interpretations are based on these Nakshatras. Further it was improved by adding one more. Some use 28 Nakshatras, but many still use 27 Nakshatras.

Similarly, there were efforts made to improve at other places. Use of Ophiuchus was one of them. This made Astrologers to deviate from precise 30 degrees boundaries and be more closer to constellations from where planets get their properties.

CC, do post your observations of Ophiuchus. I have Moon in Ophiuchus, at the point which is linked to 2012 phenomena. I survived even clinically declared death. I got life 6 times (three physical three medical).
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Historically, there were basically 2 aspects of fundamental astrological consideration: solar and lunar.

The golden path of the ecliptic was connected with the solar: this is also the path of all of the planets. Either the starry constellations along this path, or the division of space into 12 directions (12 equal divisions of the circle of the sky), were applied as the underlying influence: these were the 12 constellations (out of the observable 22) chosen by, for example, Vedic astrology; or the 12 equal divisions of the circle of the sky (12 directions of space) chosen by the later Egyptians, followed by the Greeks, and forming the basis of the tropical zodiac.

The other historical fundamental aspect of astrological understanding was the path of the Moon. This was always-as far back as documented history goes-sidereal: stars or small groups of stars (asterisms) gave their influence through the Moon passing in front of them. In very ancient China (1000 BC at the latest, from documentation) there were 28 such "stations", called by the Chinese "palaces" (hsiu); it is believed by most astrological historians (eg, David Pingree) that the 28 nakshatras (pretty much covering the same sky areas as the Chinese hsiu) predated the introduction of the solar ecliptic-referenced starry constellations into Vedic astrology (generally jyotish considers only 27 nakshatras, one being applied only to prasna-horary-delineations) Ancient Arabia had the same Lunar/starry astrological system, which they referred to as the 28 "manzils", famous up through medieval European times as the "Mansions of the Moon".

So, basically-from the historical perspective-essentially 3 fundamental outlooks have existed regarding this matter:

1) Signs of the zodiac as equal divisions of the directions of space/circle of the sky

2) Solar path, ecliptic-referenced constellations of the zodiac (anciently reduced from 22 observable starry constellations-or 19 constellations before which all of the ancient 7 planets passed-down to 12 constellations)

3) Moon centered astrology, sidereal in essence, with its 28 star/star-group areas of the sky before which the Moon passes in the course of its monthly flight: ie, the sidereal Lunar Zodiac (an excellent reference to this Lunar Zodiac, its history and its practical applications-outside of Vedic astrology-is to be found in Volguine's book, "Lunar Astrology")
 
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dhundhun

Well-known member
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Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
12 Signs are over simplification. Like equal house or whole sign.

For example, Vedic astrology from 12 Signs, advanced into 27 Astrims / Nakashtras. Dasa system and several other interpretations are based on these Nakshatras. Further it was improved by adding one more. Some use 28 Nakshatras, but many still use 27 Nakshatras.

Similarly, there were efforts made to improve at other places. Use of Ophiuchus was one of them. This made Astrologers to deviate from precise 30 degrees boundaries and be more closer to constellations from where planets get their properties.

CC, do post your observations of Ophiuchus. I have Moon in Ophiuchus, at the point which is linked to 2012 phenomena. I survived even clinically declared death. I got life 6 times (three physical three medical).
I would like to but I am just beginning to scratch the surface, I need to do alot of investigation before I even attempt anything, not only that I'll have to see how my program handles the cusps with the new zodiac. I've never attempted the APC system with 13 signs of different lengths.
I got life 6 times (three physical three medical)
Sorry I don't follow.
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Historically, there were basically 2 aspects of fundamental astrological consideration: solar and lunar.

The golden path of the ecliptic was connected with the solar: this is also the path of all of the planets. Either the starry constellations along this path, or the division of space into 12 directions (12 equal divisions of the circle of the sky), were applied as the underlying influence: these were the 12 constellations (out of the observable 22) chosen by, for example, Vedic astrology; or the 12 equal divisions of the circle of the sky (12 directions of space) chosen by the later Egyptians, followed by the Greeks, and forming the basis of the tropical zodiac.

The other historical fundamental aspect of astrological understanding was the path of the Moon. This was always-as far back as documented history goes-sidereal: stars or small groups of stars (asterisms) gave their influence through the Moon passing in front of them. In very ancient China (1000 BC at the latest, from documentation) there were 28 such "stations", called by the Chinese "palaces" (hsiu); it is believed by most astrological historians (eg, David Pingree) that the 28 nakshatras (pretty much covering the same sky areas as the Chinese hsiu) predated the introduction of the solar ecliptic-referenced starry constellations into Vedic astrology (generally jyotish considers only 27 nakshatras, one being applied only to prasna-horary-delineations) Ancient Arabia had the same Lunar/starry astrological system, which they referred to as the 28 "manzils", famous up through medieval European times as the "Mansions of the Moon".

So, basically-from the historical perspective-essentially 3 fundamental outlooks have existed regarding this matter:

1) Signs of the zodiac as equal divisions of the directions of space/circle of the sky

2) Solar path, ecliptic-referenced constellations of the zodiac (anciently reduced from 22 observable starry constellations-or 19 constellations before which all of the ancient 7 planets passed-down to 12 constellations)

3) Moon centered astrology, sidereal in essence, with its 28 star/star-group areas of the sky before which the Moon passes in the course of its monthly flight: ie, the sidereal Lunar Zodiac (an excellent reference to this Lunar Zodiac, its history and its practical applications-outside of Vedic astrology-is to be found in Volguine's book, "Lunar Astrology")
As always, a great deal of food for thought. Thankyou Dr. Farr!
 

Our3Minds

Well-known member
To look at it simply, way before the intellectuals started to add in the details, Astrology was probably a evening exercise, started by the patriarchs that kept seeing repeating characteristics in their wives and children. As time went on maybe they used the points in the sky to catalog the traits they saw in their people (fiery behaviors in people born after spring equinox). Back then on the deserts they had lots of time on their hands and observing the behaviors of others (and the problems they created in the group) would be something they would have to spend much time on.

These patriarchs were in charge of the group, they were the “law” for what was decided so managing the group may have been a laborious task that brought them to connect certain patterns in their people and at the same time they saw that the stars in the horizon had the same group of stars at the same time as that person was born. It wouldn’t have taken much imagination to take the headstrong traits of “Aries” and link them to the same character they saw in the rams from their flocks and to help them remember from year to year, and as a way to pass down their observations, to connect the dots in the sky to “catalog” the Ram and the rest of the Signs they eventually saw.

That’s what I mean by getting (way) back to the basics. Traits are the key to any relationship.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Our3Minds, there are several scholarly easy-to-read histories of astrology. A lot of speculation is involved but also a lot is known from historical and archaeological evidence. You might enjoy reading the two-volume set by professor Nicholas Campion: The Dawn of Astrology: The Ancient and Classical Worlds, and A History of Western Astrology, The Medieval and Modern Worlds; or Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.

For anyone trying to find Ophiuchus according to constellations via western tropical astrology, John Lash (Quest for the Zodiac) puts it at degrees 254-267 around the circumference (360 degrees). This would translate into 14 to 27 degrees of Sagittarius. But because he goes by the constellations width along the ecliptic, he starts at degree 268, and his Scorpio goes from degrees 240 to 253.

If you want to turn Ophiuchus into a sign of equal width with the others, try dividing 360/13 or roughly 27.7 degrees, and then multiply by 9 to locate the start of the 9th sign, roughly degrees 250 to 277. This would give you from 10 to about 28 degrees Sagittarius in the tropical zodiac. Which knocks back Sagittarius.

(My calculations are a bit different from Dhundun's but close. Please check my math, but you get the idea.)

Also, I really recommend that people go to the "free charts" pp. at Astrodienst (www.astro.com) and then under "chart drawing style" click on "Astrodienst fixed stars." It will give you your constellational horoscope, including Ophiuchus, Cetus, and Orion. Under "special charts" you can also check out important fixed stars in your chart, including those in Ophiuchus, if relevant to your chart.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Here is Hillary Clinton's fixed star chart, showing the location of Ophichus in her first house.
 

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dhundhun

Well-known member
The Ophiuchus is placed between Tropical Sag 8:00 - Sag 26 (Sidereal Sco 14:00 - Sag 2:00). Decimals are rounded.

Hillary Clinton has her EP @ Sag 8.41. Jupiter is progressing through Ophiuchus trine to Mars (9th Natal) and Pluto (9th Natal).
 
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