The peculiarity of a Libra Ascendant

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kamala

Well-known member
One of the things in astrology that has interested me greatly is the Libra Ascendant.

The natural house cusp of the 1st house/Ascendant is Aries and therefore Libra on the 7th house/Descendant.

However, with a Libra Ascedant this natural placement is exactly reversed.

But what does this mean astrologically?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
kamala said:
One of the things in astrology that has interested me greatly is the Libra Ascendant.

The natural house cusp of the 1st house/Ascendant is Aries and therefore Libra on the 7th house/Descendant. However, with a Libra Ascedant this natural placement is exactly reversed. But what does this mean astrologically?
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fwiw not all astrologers would agree with that theory kamala - for example, an ancient teaching aid that is at least two thousands years old, known as "thema Mundi" gives Cancer as the 'natural house cusp of the 1st house/Ascendant' :smile:
 

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K

kamala

Well-known member
Okay. Well i'd never heard of that before. Everything i've read on astrology so far puts Aries as the 1st Ascendant. Isn't this the predominant theory/accepted reality? Or is it more like a 50/50 split between the camps?

While there are always different theories about the same thing, I feel that there is certainly a truth in the predominant one - since it is true at a collective level, it is enmeshed in our psyche.

At one point the theory was that the Earth was the centre of the solar system. And that was true at the time. Our collective consciousness was at that stage of evolution.

When it was discovered that the Sun was at the centre there was a shift in perception and our consciousness evolved.

So too now we are experiencing many shifts at an individual level from a piscean consciousness to an aquarian one - and eventually a collective shift.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
kamala said:
Okay. Well i'd never heard of that before. Everything i've read on astrology so far puts Aries as the 1st Ascendant. Isn't this the predominant theory/accepted reality? Or is it more like a 50/50 split between the camps?
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fwiw there are as many astrological theories as there are astrologers kamala - and IMO that's one of the reasons why astrology is so interesting to study... one frequently discovers new ideas. IMO, additional considerations - such as the ones we are currently discussing - are not so much 'splits' between 'camps' as alternative points of view that provide individual astrologers with ways of adding depth of understanding to natal chart delineation :smile:
 
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kamala

Well-known member
Okay, I understand that there are different theories in astrology. But you are not helping this conversation move along. I'm not interested in the different theories.

The second house is associated with Taurus and the eighth house with Scorpio.

This is commonly accepted, it is in every book and article I read. Fine there may be another theory that distbutes that but please I am interested in this theory. I don't want to discuss the alternatives.

So moving on. Taken that the 2nd house is a Taurus house. When there is a Libra Ascendant, and the polarity is reversed, Scorpio is on the 2nd house cusp and Taurus on the 8th.

I don't want to hear about the astrologers that dont agree with this theory, I want to hear from the ones that do.

So, once again, what does this mean?
 
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may28gemini

i have early libra asc. since forever, i felt like my life is a bit backwards. i've done things that i should have done that should have been reserved for when i'm older when i was really young. now that i'm getting older, i'm doing things that i should have done when i was younger. i'm not exactly sure that's the kind of energy that gets created with having a reverse house system but i feel like as i get older in age, i get younger in other areas.

an interesting thing about the aries-libra axis is that they are both cardinal and they are both determined and ambitious to get their way- the style might be different, but the results are pretty much the same. aries act in a more direct and self-agrandized way. libra is more comfortable being indirect and and modest. both ways work.

i think having libra in the 1st gives the person the challenge to figure out how to use their libra diplomacy in an assertive way. i think that's a more powerful and useful lesson to learn than someone with aries 1st because there's a danger of too much aries selfishness clogging up progress. libra understands that cooperation from others is important. aries has to learn that lesson and give up a certain factor of control which is harder for them than a libra trying to be less timid. but that's just what i think. i'm learning to use my libran diplomacy assertively and sometimes i act outright assertive and it seems to actually work LOL
 
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miquar

miquar

Well-known member
I find these charts interesting, but not the easiest to interpret. Because when the Ascendant is in Libra (especially early Libra), the Meridian axis is square the horizon axis, you usually get Scorpio on the 2nd cusp, Sagittarius on the 3rd, etc. So every house is balanced by the sign naturally associated with its complementary opposite house. I guess this is the lot in life of the Libra rising person - nothing can be done without weighing it against the opposite option.

Also with Virgo Ascendants especially the later degrees of Virgo), you often get lots of planets in something like Aries in the 7th house, or in Cancer in the 10th house.
 
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kamala

Well-known member
miquar said:
I find these charts interesting, but not the easiest to interpret. Because when the Ascendant is in Libra (especially early Libra), the Meridian axis is square the horizon axis, you usually get Scorpio on the 2nd cusp, Sagittarius on the 3rd, etc. So every house is balanced by the sign naturally associated with its complementary opposite house. I guess this is the lot in life of the Libra rising person - nothing can be done without weighing it against the opposite option.

Also with Virgo Ascendants especially the later degrees of Virgo), you often get lots of planets in something like Aries in the 7th house, or in Cancer in the 10th house.
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Yes, its very interesting, I just never see it being discussed when Libra Ascendant is mentioned. Perhaps there are some articles or books that explore it in detail????

I do have Libra ASC quite early, so Scorpio IS on the 2nd and Sag 3rd etc.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
No, it doesn't tend to get discussed as a phenomenon, as far as I've seen. It would be useful for you perhaps to read stuff which treats the signs and houses as 6 polarities rather than 12 units. For example Taurus needs Scorpio transformation or else it stagnates, and in any case the security that Taurus experiences will always seem precarious on some level until s/he discovers 'what supports us when everything we thought supported us is taken away' (Greene). And there has to be some sense of enduring stability (Taurus) in order for us to survive the Scorpio experience of transformation - some sense of of our own worth and what we value before we can let go into intimacy and sharing with another in a mature and conscious way, rather than as a kind of emotional parasite.

Greene offers keywords for house polarities in The Art Of Stealing Fire, which I think are also useful for the signs:

1/7 Interaction - it takes two to tango, and even Aries needs someone to compete against!
2/8 Substance - mine or shared?
3/9 Knowledge - 'derived from facts (3rd) or intuition (9th)' (Greene)
4/10 (she doesn't offer a keyword as such but refers to them as the parental houses). Something like 'container' or 'matrix' might work - I'm still looking for a keyword that feels perfect for this polarity.
5/11 Identity (I wondered about this but then one day saw someone wearing a CND badge and thought, 'Aha identity - I am a member of CND!'
6/12 Synthesis (Greene points out that although Virgo maintains its boundaries, it is very much concerned with how it is integrated with the rest of the world).
 
M

may28gemini

miquar said:
No, it doesn't tend to get discussed as a phenomenon, as far as I've seen. It would be useful for you perhaps to read stuff which treats the signs and houses as 6 polarities rather than 12 units. For example Taurus needs Scorpio transformation or else it stagnates, and in any case the security that Taurus experiences will always seem precarious on some level until s/he discovers 'what supports us when everything we thought supported us is taken away' (Greene). And there has to be some sense of enduring stability (Taurus) in order for us to survive the Scorpio experience of transformation - some sense of of our own worth and what we value before we can let go into intimacy and sharing with another in a mature and conscious way, rather than as a kind of emotional parasite.

Greene offers keywords for house polarities in The Art Of Stealing Fire, which I think are also useful for the signs:

1/7 Interaction - it takes two to tango, and even Aries needs someone to compete against!
2/8 Substance - mine or shared?
3/9 Knowledge - 'derived from facts (3rd) or intuition (9th)' (Greene)
4/10 (she doesn't offer a keyword as such but refers to them as the parental houses). Something like 'container' or 'matrix' might work - I'm still looking for a keyword that feels perfect for this polarity.
5/11 Identity (I wondered about this but then one day saw someone wearing a CND badge and thought, 'Aha identity - I am a member of CND!'
6/12 Synthesis (Greene points out that although Virgo maintains its boundaries, it is very much concerned with how it is integrated with the rest of the world).
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the 4/10 axis is private and public so maybe the word "origins" would fit? both houses want to find their "place" in the world (10th) and personal world (4th).

the 6/12 axis is very concerned about serving others so synthesis fits the bill.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
may28gemini said:
the 4/10 axis is private and public so maybe the word "origins" would fit? both houses want to find their "place" in the world (10th) and personal world (4th).

the 6/12 axis is very concerned about serving others so synthesis fits the bill.
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Yes, I like 'origins'. When I read your post I wondered how to add to that the sense of preservation that I associate with these houses, which fits with the cardinality of the signs associated with them - i.e. a sense of moving into the future with regard for one's origins. I came up with 'continuity'. What do you think?

Feels like good teamwork going on in developing this idea. Where's your natal Mercury? (mine's at 13 Aquarius 33).
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Also, Greene doesn't give the word 'interaction' for the 1st/7th axis as specifically as she does for substance, knowledge, identity and synthesis, though she does use 'interaction' in talking about the 1st/7th. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it, if you have any better ideas?
 
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may28gemini

LOL I have end of the line 29 Gemini Mercury in 9th house! YES!! I love other air sign Mercuries because they're so quick!

You know, I'm starting to see the 4/10 axis as an identity thing- finding identity in society (10th/MC) and finding identity in your own created society (family/close community 4th/IC). I think "origins" does fit and preservation is a major part of maintaining (4th) and evolving (10th) from one's origins. Because these are angular houses/signs we're talking about, they are concerned about initiating/leading. Perhaps another word to tie everything in would be "creation." What do you think?

I like reading Liz Greene's writings but mostly for entertainment purposes. I don't really consider a lot of her writing to be worded with great satisfaction as far as how it can be used to describe the very nature the signs, houses, and planets in astrology. She probably has detriment Mercury Sagittarius which is polar opposite of me and I can't take it seriously. She does give a lot of food for thought.

For the 1/7 axis, I would use the word "boundaries"- where the self begins 1st/where the self ends and where others begin is 7th. What say you?
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Yes I do see creation as part of the picture, but because we're looking at a yin polarity perhaps it is more about the matrix which makes creation possible. So with Cancer the matrix is biological and instinctual, and with Capricorn its about legality, tradition, politics, class structure, etc.

And then perhaps 'having found our feet' biologically and socially we can go on to create an identity as an individual in the 5th and as a participant/reformer in the 11th.

Greene has Sun and Mercury in Virgo - Moon in Sagittarius though, and with a Venus Jupiter conjunction in Libra.

'Boundaries' is interesting. In the 7th house we meet others as separate individuals, and don't lose our boundaries until the 8th house kinds of relationships. And in the first house we are striving to assert our independence following the 12th.

Interactions take place across boundaries. If there is no boundary of any kind, then there aren't two separate entities to interact with one another - there's just one entity.

But a boundary is static, and the 1st and 7th houses are yang and angular, so bring in the dynamism and I'm back to 'interaction'. Maybe for me, that's the closest word I'll find.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Kamala, modern astrologers tend to conflate signs and houses. This approach was popularized in the early 20th century by C.E.O. Carter. This was not the case with traditional western astrology, with the exception of some late-breaking medical astrology.

I happen to think that some signs and houses match up well, but others are not good matches. For example, Sagittarius, Jupiter and the 9th house seem to have a lot in common. But I think Aries and the first house are a poor match, unless one happens to have Aries or Mars in the first house. As you know, the first house indicates your body and outward personality. Somebody with Pisces or Virgo rising is unlikely to come across in an Arian or martial fashion.

A sign indicates "how or in what manner" a planet operates; where as a house indicates "where or in what domain of life" a planet operates. These are different issues.

Of course, we have to look at the chart as a whole, but someone with Libra rising would probably come across as gracious and charming (with Venus ruling the house); although perhaps as a stickler for fairness and justice. Such a person may also come across as indecisive. The reason is because Libras can see both or multiple sides of an issue. Their key word is "balance."

Libra rising will have Aries on the 7th house cusp, so this person might be attracted to an Aries type. This doesn't mean The One will necessarily have a prominent Aries in his or her chart; merely that a more "martial" individual would seem attractive.
 
M

may28gemini

miquar said:
Yes I do see creation as part of the picture, but because we're looking at a yin polarity perhaps it is more about the matrix which makes creation possible. So with Cancer the matrix is biological and instinctual, and with Capricorn its about legality, tradition, politics, class structure, etc.

And then perhaps 'having found our feet' biologically and socially we can go on to create an identity as an individual in the 5th and as a participant/reformer in the 11th.

Greene has Sun and Mercury in Virgo - Moon in Sagittarius though, and with a Venus Jupiter conjunction in Libra.

'Boundaries' is interesting. In the 7th house we meet others as separate individuals, and don't lose our boundaries until the 8th house kinds of relationships. And in the first house we are striving to assert our independence following the 12th.

Interactions take place across boundaries. If there is no boundary of any kind, then there aren't two separate entities to interact with one another - there's just one entity.

But a boundary is static, and the 1st and 7th houses are yang and angular, so bring in the dynamism and I'm back to 'interaction'. Maybe for me, that's the closest word I'll find.
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LOL I have Gemini sun and Mercury and many years ago, I had read somewhere that Liz Greene was a Sag sun. I felt like she comes across too Sagittarian so finding that that she really has a Sag moon is very fitting. Although Virgo Mercury is dignity along with Gemini Merc, they're really different and probably contentious. Like I said, I find her writing very entertaining and food for thought but can't really take it seriously.

Ahhh yes, "origins" seem to be an adequate descriptive word for the 4/10 axis.

Yes, I understand that 1/7 is angular and is interested in initiation but it doesn't have to "interact" in order to initiate.
I came up with "boundaries" for 1/7 axis because both houses have the biggest issues dealing with boundaries. The 1st house is only concerned about the self so it's boundaries or rather, limits, is confined to 1 space (self/inside). With the 7th house boundaries is about what goes on outside of the self which is other people, communities, society. In that case, I lumped the other/outside parties as 1 entity. The 1st cannot be independent if it does not learn to govern its given space (the self) to even motivate itself to be independent and the 7th cannot survive in the outside world if it didn't acknowledge, focus, and mimic what happens out there. The question still remains, at what cost? The answer lies within the boundaries and limitations that the 1/7 axis proposes: self reliance or integrate with others?

I would put interactions with 2/8 axis (even though substance is the core it) because the 2nd is when you interact with your things and the 8th is when you deal with other people's things. But don't forget- 2nd houses the self-esteem/self-worth. 8th houses what you value outside of yourself (objects, people, etc.)
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
may28gemini said:
Yes, I understand that 1/7 is angular and is interested in initiation but it doesn't have to "interact" in order to initiate.
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But you can't initiate anything in a vacuum - you have to take initiative with regard to something other than yourself.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
waybread said:
I happen to think that some signs and houses match up well, but others are not good matches. For example, Sagittarius, Jupiter and the 9th house seem to have a lot in common. But I think Aries and the first house are a poor match, unless one happens to have Aries or Mars in the first house. As you know, the first house indicates your body and outward personality. Somebody with Pisces or Virgo rising is unlikely to come across in an Arian or martial fashion.
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My take on this is a little different. I have a lot of sympathy for correlating signs with houses, partly because of the way the Ascendant and first point of Aries are similarly defined by the crossing of two planes. The Ascendant is defined as one of the points where the horizon of the location in question crosses the ecliptic. The first degree of Aries is one of the points where the plane of the Earth's rotation on its axis crosses the ecliptic.

You could say that Sagittarius and the ninth house are a better match if someone has Jupiter rather than Saturn in the 9th, or that Cancer and the 4th house are a better match if someone has Moon rather than Mars in the 4th.

I think that because the first house is so crucial to the chart, where as Mars is in effect just another personal planet and Aries is just another sign, there is something in this instance that makes it different from the other house/sign correlations. But I do feel the correlation holds qualitatively even in this case.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Hi. I think there's some divergence of thoughts and definitions here, but I can't get my head around it.
 
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