Placement question
- Thread starter jg1982
- Start date
What if --
Instead of trying to develop meaning of a sign on a house cusp from the sign itself,
We looked to the ruler of the sign plus any planets inhabiting the house or aspecting its cusp as the significators for the affairs of the house?
In the case of a Virgo MC, Mercury would be the lord
and if Libra, then Venus.
The condition of the lord in any particular case will give us a definition with much "higher resolution" than will the general characteristics of the sign taken alone.
While any given sign is imbued with a certain range of characteristics (Libra can be said to be concerned with harmony and balance , for example...or disharmony and imbalance), it is the condition of the lord, primarily, that determines the manner of expression of the inherent qualities of the sign. The first degrees, the middle degrees and the last degrees of a sign exhibit differences; they are not necessarily the same. If we call a sign "Mexican", we find that there are tall Mexicans, short Mexicans, fat Mexicans, thin Mexicans, dark-skinned Mexicans and light-skinned Mexicans; not all Mexicans are the same.
Aries is a Fire sign. Its presence on the IC suggests "fiery roots". But Aries does not specify, of itself, whether its Fire is a spark or an ember, a cooking fire, a bonfire, a forest fire, a house afire, or the point of a torch-flame. By looking at Mars, we can begin to see which form is most likely.
In addition to the lord of a sign, we can also refer to the almuten of the degree, the bound lord, the planet exalted in the sign (if any), degree symbols and many other referants to refine and expand the meaning of a sign on an angle or house cusp.
Instead of trying to develop meaning of a sign on a house cusp from the sign itself,
We looked to the ruler of the sign plus any planets inhabiting the house or aspecting its cusp as the significators for the affairs of the house?
In the case of a Virgo MC, Mercury would be the lord
and if Libra, then Venus.
The condition of the lord in any particular case will give us a definition with much "higher resolution" than will the general characteristics of the sign taken alone.
While any given sign is imbued with a certain range of characteristics (Libra can be said to be concerned with harmony and balance , for example...or disharmony and imbalance), it is the condition of the lord, primarily, that determines the manner of expression of the inherent qualities of the sign. The first degrees, the middle degrees and the last degrees of a sign exhibit differences; they are not necessarily the same. If we call a sign "Mexican", we find that there are tall Mexicans, short Mexicans, fat Mexicans, thin Mexicans, dark-skinned Mexicans and light-skinned Mexicans; not all Mexicans are the same.
Aries is a Fire sign. Its presence on the IC suggests "fiery roots". But Aries does not specify, of itself, whether its Fire is a spark or an ember, a cooking fire, a bonfire, a forest fire, a house afire, or the point of a torch-flame. By looking at Mars, we can begin to see which form is most likely.
In addition to the lord of a sign, we can also refer to the almuten of the degree, the bound lord, the planet exalted in the sign (if any), degree symbols and many other referants to refine and expand the meaning of a sign on an angle or house cusp.
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greybeard,
Thank you for taking the time to answer. I see your point, and how it can help to focus on the ruling planets rather than the signs themselves.
I have a specific problem, though, hence my confusion.
I have my moon in Libra, in the 10th house in one chart, and have the moon at the very end of the 9th house, in Libra as well of course, in the other possible chart So, it's hard for me to NOT associate my career and tenth house matters with Libra (Venus).
In the IC case: Aries or Pisces, Mars or Neptune? Both my mother and my city of birth are Pisces, and my city (of birth) is by the sea...so I see a big synchronicity there, BUT.. my mother is quite a strong-willed and strong-tempered Pisces (moon in Leo -conjunct Uranus, mars in Capricorn). So, I can see a "fiery" quality about her, alright.
Also, my city, was founded on march 8th, so it makes it Pisces, BUT it is known in Cuba as a city of brave people overall, and it happened to be the first, and one of only two cities, to take to the streets massively to protest against Fidel Castro ever in Cuba, and got "blacklisted" because of it. So I can see the fiery roots, yes. Coincidentally, its motto is "primus in Cuba" or, first in Cuba, since there are a lot of firsts in my city: First time the Cuban flag was raised in Cuba, first time the American flag was raised in Cuba, second city in the world, behind New York, to have electricity (but first in Latin America), first statue of Christopher Columbus in the new world, second railroad in Latin America (first one was in Havana) etc. It used to be an industrial city, etc. Even though not all firsts, its obvious so there was a certain Martian "drive" (before Fidel Castro)...about the city.
In essence, I have something of both influences, Mars and Neptune, so it's a bit hard for me to see the contrast right away, because I recognize both energies, in the IC. To top it off, both Neptune and Mars are located in my First house together...
PS, In regards to the MC, both Venus AND mercury..are situated in my 11th house and in the same sign.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. I see your point, and how it can help to focus on the ruling planets rather than the signs themselves.
I have a specific problem, though, hence my confusion.
I have my moon in Libra, in the 10th house in one chart, and have the moon at the very end of the 9th house, in Libra as well of course, in the other possible chart So, it's hard for me to NOT associate my career and tenth house matters with Libra (Venus).
In the IC case: Aries or Pisces, Mars or Neptune? Both my mother and my city of birth are Pisces, and my city (of birth) is by the sea...so I see a big synchronicity there, BUT.. my mother is quite a strong-willed and strong-tempered Pisces (moon in Leo -conjunct Uranus, mars in Capricorn). So, I can see a "fiery" quality about her, alright.
Also, my city, was founded on march 8th, so it makes it Pisces, BUT it is known in Cuba as a city of brave people overall, and it happened to be the first, and one of only two cities, to take to the streets massively to protest against Fidel Castro ever in Cuba, and got "blacklisted" because of it. So I can see the fiery roots, yes. Coincidentally, its motto is "primus in Cuba" or, first in Cuba, since there are a lot of firsts in my city: First time the Cuban flag was raised in Cuba, first time the American flag was raised in Cuba, second city in the world, behind New York, to have electricity (but first in Latin America), first statue of Christopher Columbus in the new world, second railroad in Latin America (first one was in Havana) etc. It used to be an industrial city, etc. Even though not all firsts, its obvious so there was a certain Martian "drive" (before Fidel Castro)...about the city.
In essence, I have something of both influences, Mars and Neptune, so it's a bit hard for me to see the contrast right away, because I recognize both energies, in the IC. To top it off, both Neptune and Mars are located in my First house together...
PS, In regards to the MC, both Venus AND mercury..are situated in my 11th house and in the same sign.
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If the IC, or 4th House, is supposed to show, or correspond with, the city you are born in....then all persons born in Cardenas should have Pisces (or Aries) at the Nadir.
Are you perhaps expecting a bit much?
Are you trying to determine your time of birth?
Try actual Rectification (based on the advent of actual life events), rather than guessing which traits you think you or your city may display.
It is very hard for any person to see themselves objectively.
If you were using the sidereal zodiac instead of tropical your Ascendant (we'll call it "personality") would be depicted as Scorpio. Would you be able to distinguish between Sagittarius and Scorpio in evaluating your own personality?
Muy buen tomo de astrologia es La Astrologia Racional por el Dr.Adolfo Weiss, el cual se puede conseguir en la Editora Kier de Buenos Aires...(algo carinoso)
Are you perhaps expecting a bit much?
Are you trying to determine your time of birth?
Try actual Rectification (based on the advent of actual life events), rather than guessing which traits you think you or your city may display.
It is very hard for any person to see themselves objectively.
If you were using the sidereal zodiac instead of tropical your Ascendant (we'll call it "personality") would be depicted as Scorpio. Would you be able to distinguish between Sagittarius and Scorpio in evaluating your own personality?
Muy buen tomo de astrologia es La Astrologia Racional por el Dr.Adolfo Weiss, el cual se puede conseguir en la Editora Kier de Buenos Aires...(algo carinoso)
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greybeard,
My relating the IC so literally my city of birth is just an observation of a possible synchronicity, I know that it would be a mathematical impossibility for everyone in any city to have the same MC/IC. I was making a personal observation mostly.
My time of birth is 8:50 am which would put my MC in Virgo and IC in Pisces. BUT, and this is a different thread I started a some time ago, when I had my chart done by an astrologer 10 years ago he added 24 minutes (4 minutes per degree off the 75th meridian) to my time of birth. That put my MC in Libra and IC in Aries. To make thing more complicated, he explained he does not do it to every chart, but only when he deems it necessary in order for the sun and other important points in the chart to fall where they are "supposed" to, relatively, in that 360 degree clock called the natal chart.
The general consensus seems to be that most programs do not need any correction, but the astrologer that did my chart, disagreed, I guess. Hence my confusion. I started this thread in order to see if I could get any clues working backwards, by receiving advice on the differences between placements therefore being able to detect which one of the two charts would be more accurate.
The subjectivity of self-evaluation is a fact. But, I do believe I would be able to tell the difference between stellium of 6 planets in Libra, Scorpio Asc and Moon in Virgo, and a stellium in Scorpio, ascendant Sagittarius and moon in Libra. But, then again, that will forever remain in the theoretical domain since I have now way to prove it conclusively. As a mind experiment, I have evaluated my sidereal Horoscope, and it does not seem to accurately describe my psychological make up (in my opinion).
I see and feel a prominent Sagittarian/Jovian personality working in me. In my personality, philosophy and optimism are VERY important keywords. Moon-wise, I do not resonate with Virgo, I do not NEED order and cleanliness in order to function in my environment. Not that I am dirty he he, that is not what I am saying, but what I mean is that I am not obsessive with my surroundings, I am more of the philosophical/artistic type...and my room is often disorganized full of music sheets on the floor and notes about astrology, spiritual thoughts, etc that I "come up" with after philosphical musings at 3 am. Of course this is an oversimplification, but I suspect that would not slide with a moon in Virgo, the disorder-because-my-head-is-in-the-coulds bit. I do think a prominent Sagittarian placement would tend to put less emphasis in the material and more on the abstract world. I do not contrast Virgo Moon with Libra moon (tropical) because any Libra-ness could easily be confused with a Sidereal Libra Sun at least superficially. I think I overextended myself... sorry. All I am trying to do, really, is find out which is chart is the most accurate and if correction was really necessary or not. I am 90 percent convinced that it is not necessary but not 100%, mostly due to lack of knowledge.
I will look up the book that you so graciously recommended.
Thank you.
My relating the IC so literally my city of birth is just an observation of a possible synchronicity, I know that it would be a mathematical impossibility for everyone in any city to have the same MC/IC. I was making a personal observation mostly.
My time of birth is 8:50 am which would put my MC in Virgo and IC in Pisces. BUT, and this is a different thread I started a some time ago, when I had my chart done by an astrologer 10 years ago he added 24 minutes (4 minutes per degree off the 75th meridian) to my time of birth. That put my MC in Libra and IC in Aries. To make thing more complicated, he explained he does not do it to every chart, but only when he deems it necessary in order for the sun and other important points in the chart to fall where they are "supposed" to, relatively, in that 360 degree clock called the natal chart.
The general consensus seems to be that most programs do not need any correction, but the astrologer that did my chart, disagreed, I guess. Hence my confusion. I started this thread in order to see if I could get any clues working backwards, by receiving advice on the differences between placements therefore being able to detect which one of the two charts would be more accurate.
The subjectivity of self-evaluation is a fact. But, I do believe I would be able to tell the difference between stellium of 6 planets in Libra, Scorpio Asc and Moon in Virgo, and a stellium in Scorpio, ascendant Sagittarius and moon in Libra. But, then again, that will forever remain in the theoretical domain since I have now way to prove it conclusively. As a mind experiment, I have evaluated my sidereal Horoscope, and it does not seem to accurately describe my psychological make up (in my opinion).
I see and feel a prominent Sagittarian/Jovian personality working in me. In my personality, philosophy and optimism are VERY important keywords. Moon-wise, I do not resonate with Virgo, I do not NEED order and cleanliness in order to function in my environment. Not that I am dirty he he, that is not what I am saying, but what I mean is that I am not obsessive with my surroundings, I am more of the philosophical/artistic type...and my room is often disorganized full of music sheets on the floor and notes about astrology, spiritual thoughts, etc that I "come up" with after philosphical musings at 3 am. Of course this is an oversimplification, but I suspect that would not slide with a moon in Virgo, the disorder-because-my-head-is-in-the-coulds bit. I do think a prominent Sagittarian placement would tend to put less emphasis in the material and more on the abstract world. I do not contrast Virgo Moon with Libra moon (tropical) because any Libra-ness could easily be confused with a Sidereal Libra Sun at least superficially. I think I overextended myself... sorry. All I am trying to do, really, is find out which is chart is the most accurate and if correction was really necessary or not. I am 90 percent convinced that it is not necessary but not 100%, mostly due to lack of knowledge.
I will look up the book that you so graciously recommended.
Thank you.
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If the birth time of 0850 is correct, then the chart with the Virgo MC is correct.
It needs no correction. I have checked it against my program (one which I have repeatedly verified as accurate.)
I would agree that the sidereal zodiac does not accurately portray the psychological makeup of a person (and therefore can't accurately portray the destiny).
I see no good reason for you to doubt your chart as it stands (Virgo MC). In my opinion the astrologer who added time to your recorded birth time was out of line -- there is not, as far as I can see from what you say, any valid reason to do so. (I've been studying astrology for over 40 years, and spent roughly the first 25 or 30 casting charts "by hand" and understand the process). If the folks attending your birth were careful enough to record the time as 0850, then it is probable (nothing is certain) that the time is accurate to within a few minutes at worst; the recorded time was not 0845 or 0900, which presents the possibiliity of "rounding off".
Discard the second chart and rest easy.
Your Asc is 17 Sagittarius 26'50" and the MC is 26 Virgo 22'50".
At age 8 I would expect some change or notable event.
It needs no correction. I have checked it against my program (one which I have repeatedly verified as accurate.)
I would agree that the sidereal zodiac does not accurately portray the psychological makeup of a person (and therefore can't accurately portray the destiny).
I see no good reason for you to doubt your chart as it stands (Virgo MC). In my opinion the astrologer who added time to your recorded birth time was out of line -- there is not, as far as I can see from what you say, any valid reason to do so. (I've been studying astrology for over 40 years, and spent roughly the first 25 or 30 casting charts "by hand" and understand the process). If the folks attending your birth were careful enough to record the time as 0850, then it is probable (nothing is certain) that the time is accurate to within a few minutes at worst; the recorded time was not 0845 or 0900, which presents the possibiliity of "rounding off".
Discard the second chart and rest easy.
Your Asc is 17 Sagittarius 26'50" and the MC is 26 Virgo 22'50".
At age 8 I would expect some change or notable event.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
RECTIFICATION TIPS
- VERIFYING ASCENDANT/DESCENDANT/MC/IC ANGLES at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626
There is an astrological technique from antiquity
generally known as the Prenatal Epoch
detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
QUOTE
'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.
Also known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:
"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."
But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law,
for while the
Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch,
the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth
....a very remarkable interchange of factors." http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247 E.H. Bailey.
- VERIFYING ASCENDANT/DESCENDANT/MC/IC ANGLES at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626
There is an astrological technique from antiquity
generally known as the Prenatal Epoch
detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
QUOTE
'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.
Also known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:
"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."
But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law,
for while the
Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch,
the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth
....a very remarkable interchange of factors." http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247 E.H. Bailey.
greybeard: Thank you. I am trying to figure out what could have happened when i was around 8. The only major thing i can think of is I had a surgery done in which I almost died... but I cannot accurately remember how old I was. It was certainly close enough to 8. Is this event you talk about possibly health related? Btw.. my birth time is supposed to be pretty accurate, my Mom remembers that as soon as I came out, someone asked for the time immediately after and they said 8:50 am, and it was so noted in my birth certificate.
JUPITERASC: I am trying to do the calculations but they do not match perfectly, or maybe I am doing something wrong. According to my calculations my conception would fall about 2 weeks before it's supposed to in order to match the theory (im still working on it though). That, or my birth should have happened 2 weeks later than it did. I had a premature birth, so I suspect that throws off any calculations...
But I can tell you this, I asked my mom (lol, yes, i went there) if she remembered when I was "made". She told me that she is almost 100% sure it was just before a specific date she gave me during march of 1982 (that's when she noticed, it was a friends bday).. and I tried to figure out by tweaking times and dates in www.astro.com so that the conception chart would have the necessary conditions to match my birth chart according to the theory..and guess what? The date that matched was in a range between 1- 2 days before the date she gave me, when noticed she was pregnant, which is certainly possible. It would have happened approx. between 7:00 am and 7:50 am (Desc Libra)...
That range would put my conception moon in Sagittarius (my current Ascendant) and my conception Descendant in Libra (my current moon).
Pretty interesting...
JUPITERASC: I am trying to do the calculations but they do not match perfectly, or maybe I am doing something wrong. According to my calculations my conception would fall about 2 weeks before it's supposed to in order to match the theory (im still working on it though). That, or my birth should have happened 2 weeks later than it did. I had a premature birth, so I suspect that throws off any calculations...
But I can tell you this, I asked my mom (lol, yes, i went there) if she remembered when I was "made". She told me that she is almost 100% sure it was just before a specific date she gave me during march of 1982 (that's when she noticed, it was a friends bday).. and I tried to figure out by tweaking times and dates in www.astro.com so that the conception chart would have the necessary conditions to match my birth chart according to the theory..and guess what? The date that matched was in a range between 1- 2 days before the date she gave me, when noticed she was pregnant, which is certainly possible. It would have happened approx. between 7:00 am and 7:50 am (Desc Libra)...
That range would put my conception moon in Sagittarius (my current Ascendant) and my conception Descendant in Libra (my current moon).
Pretty interesting...
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
The reason that is certainly possible jg1982 is because sperm are capable of living up to 5 days AFTER the epoch aka conception date
info on that at http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/getting-pregnant/expert-answers/pregnancy/faq-20058504
although apparently the going rate for most regular sperm is 72 hours http://www.babycenter.com/400_how-long-can-a-sperm-survive-in-woman-body_2325594_30.bc
jg1982 that's far more than simply pretty interesting.... that's significant
and well done for persevering with this complex technique
IRREGULAR EPOCHS are one cause of complexity
The link I previously gave
at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm provides
- after some scrolling down -
TABLE OF VARIATIONS
Variation I
..........................................Birth.........................Epoch
Moon increasing.....................AC......becomes...........Moon
Moon increasing....................Moon... becomes..... ......DC
and
Moon decreasing....................DC......becomes...........Moon
Moon decreasing....................Moon...becomes............AC